This "IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT JAN. 14 2009 – LEGISLATORS WORKING WITH STRIPERS FOREVER HAVE FILED GAME FISH LEGISLATION IN THIS SESSION OF THE MA LEGISLATURE" has caused me to reflect on the condition of our striped bass fishery. I think many of us can agree that the fishery is not what it once was, after restoration. I'm not looking to finger point toward comm. guys, trophy seasons, rec guys, trawlers, environmental factors, etc.
I am wondering "what can be done about it". As long as fishermen are within their legal right to take fish, that fact can not be changed. So, that being said, I guess the fact of the matter comes down to state and federal agencies protecting the fishery for us. How does one go about making a difference?
Please take the time to read the entire attachment by Jim White. Your thoughts are much appreciated. Art

This year we saw many fish in the Buzzards Bay fishery with signs of infection. Again though, I think Stripers Forever has missed the point entirely. Stress induced deseases such as Myco bacteriosis have a much more profound effect on the stock if the stock cannot find the nutritional resources it needs to sustain itself, namely forage species such as Menhaden, River Herring, squid, crabs , lobsters and the myriad smaller species such as silversides, sandeels, anchovies and mullet.

Why elevate the bass to gamefish status only to watch it's stock numbers soar then be unable to feed itself? Human populations have demonstrated this is untenable over the centuries. One only has to look to china, India, North Korea and a host of African countries to see what affect over population verses the ability to adeqautely find or produce the staples of life have on a population. Starvation is a hard way to go for any animal including humans or fish.

The report by Capt. White acknowledges assumptions, responsible reporting on any given theory must always rely on fact not assumptive theory. This then leads to groups like Stripers Forever to take this assumptive "model" and spin it to thier cause.

That the fish are under some kind of stress is plainly evident, the cause of it calls for prudent action with solid facts and not rushing to action on a "carpe diem" basis.

The call to action should start in intelligent analysis with all factors considered. The most important factor in this investigation should be the state of the basses forage species. One shouldn't cry wolf without hard data and should do so without assumptions.

Well said again, Flap...:kewl:

Whoops, this is how it started the last time....

Relative to legislative actions to protect the fishery, I've almost finished reading Striper Wars - and at this point I think I can say at least the Prologue was accurate for the most part in terms of the basic biology and reproduction cycles...and after that it begins to swirl around the drain at a increasingly faster rate in some of the following chapters.

There are some real leaps of logic in the book regarding conservation that are glaringly obvious to me if you actually know the stories beforehand as well as a number of other important points that Russell either passes over quickly or ignores altogether. You do have to pick and choose through material wisely I guess -

Anyway, from my perspective, Flap has hit it dead on the nuts - fix the forage base first to reduce the stress if you want a more robust stock. And that's a very tall order.

Given the importance of the subject, let's try to keep the discussion gentlemanly and intelligent - while most of us are in the grips of the shack nasties, at the very least, we can agree to disagree.

We've got a good collection of pretty smart guys here at S-B from a lot of different disiplines and backgrounds and perhaps we can come up with an idea for an effective solution beyond what has already been proposed.

Well put gentlemen. So far so good. I am in no way a proponent for Stripers Forever. That is a totally different discussion. Issues of particular concern are the facts that ASMFC has not acknowledged any health isssue, claiming stocks to be in good health through 2015 (!), and the really low YOY class fish at 3.9. I may be incorrect but isn't the number considered "healthy" 8.0

Well put gentlemen. So far so good. I am in no way a proponent for Stripers Forever. That is a totally different discussion. Issues of particular concern are the facts that ASMFC has not acknowledged any health isssue, claiming stocks to be in good health through 2015 (!), and the really low YOY class fish at 3.9. I may be incorrect but isn't the number considered "healthy" 8.0

As I recall anything over around 5 is considered good. 8 is very good and those were the kind of numbers that brought the bass back. Recent years have seen very low YOY indexes, but, those fish wouldn't have entered the breeding population yet anyway. ASMFC has said NOTHING about 2015, or any year beyond 2009. All they have said is that the stck is still in good shape as of 2008.

As I recall anything over around 5 is considered good. 8 is very good and those were the kind of numbers that brought the bass back. Recent years have seen very low YOY indexes, but, those fish wouldn't have entered the breeding population yet anyway. ASMFC has said NOTHING about 2015, or any year beyond 2009. All they have said is that the stck is still in good shape as of 2008.

The source, Capt. Jim White's article in the RISAA newsletter, Myobacteriosis, paragraph 8, has a quote from ASMFC say SOMETHING about 2015. I have included the article as an attatchment in the first post. have you read it and know that quote to be false. Art

Couple different tracks with the same total problem - condition of the fishery and stocks.

Closing the commercial fishery is not going to do much to help the stock - just rearranges the deck chairs a little. It is an allocation issue. If you want to reduce pressure on the fish, reduce the take by all parties.

Forage, Pogies FohRevvah! - This is what we need - protect the forage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jim White's take on Myco - yes, there are a lot of assumptions. Sadly Fisheries Managements deals a lot in assumptions. Assuming (:rotf2:) that things are half as bad as Jim assumes, than we have a problem. This NEEDS to be looked into and factored into the stock assessments.

Sorry, I'm not big on Gamefish Status and I really don't have a dog in that fight. I really think Stripers Forever could do far more good for the Stripers we all want to keep for Forever if they focused their attention on the fish, not who gets to pursue them.

I lived through the "Striper Wars" and found Russells book quite accurate. Here is a posting from his website.

STRIPED BASS IN TROUBLE AGAIN:
WHAT IS TO BE DONE
By #^&#^&#^&#^& Russell
December 13, 2008

The comeback of the Atlantic striped bass has been called the foremost example of a fisheries management success story, proving that if strong enough regulations are put in place, even a fish population in the worst straits can make a dramatic turn-around. As I documented in my book, Striper Wars: An American Fish Story, this was only achieved because of the pressure applied on public officials by fishermen all along the coast. I also warned, however, that this could be all for naught if attention was not paid – and quickly – to a chronic bacterial infection among the Chesapeake Bay’s striper population, a disease that seems to be linked to their not getting enough to eat. The menhaden, their food of choice, is being overfished by a single corporation, Omega Protein, that grinds the little fish up into fish-meal and processes them into fish-oil.

Since my book was published in 2005, the situation has not gotten any better. In fact, all indications this year are that it’s a whole lot worse. The annual index showing how well striped bass have spawned in the Chesapeake is the lowest since 1990, when they were only beginning to emerge from their near-total collapse. At the same time, marine biologists at the Virginia Institute of Marine Science have released a report stating that the mycobacterial infection is a “stress disease” now detected in more than 60 percent of the bay’s stripers and one that ultimately proves fatal. Among their findings, the scientists noted that older females are more likely than males to die from the disease. No surprise, then, that spawning success is way down.

Fishermen in many different locations along the Eastern seaboard are reporting their worst seasons since the dire days of the early 1980s. There is a lack of forage for stripers in New England waters too, where “factory-sized” midwater trawlers are encircling huge schools of herring with nets as big as a football field. Never has the need for an ecosystem-based approach to management been more apparent. Yet the big commercial interests continue to have inordinate influence over the supposed regulators.

In the Chesapeake region, a group of scientists came out in early December to flatly state that the 25-year, $6-billion effort to clean up the bay has been a dismal failure and needs to be completely revamped. A few days later, the federal EPA asked for an exemption to exclude poultry farms from the environmental reporting required of other industries – even though they release pollutants into the air from millions of tons of manure left by their flocks (as much as one-third of the nitrogen fouling the bay waters comes from the air). This is yet another example of the Bush administration’s blatant gutting of environmental laws in its final days.

So what is to be done? In the 1980s, faced with a pollution problem that everyone knew could not be solved overnight, there was only one thing to do: stop the fishing pressure. Moratoriums and no-sale laws went into effect all across the coast. As the striped bass population heads for what may be a second great crash, it’s time to move in that direction again. Already there is no commercial fishing for stripers allowed in Maine, New Hampshire, Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, the District of Columbia and South Carolina, nor in federal waters beyond the three-mile state limit. A bill will soon be pending in the Massachusetts Legislature to follow suit and make striped bass a no-sale gamefish.

I am not someone who enjoys advocating that commercial fishermen be put out of the striped bass business, or denying supermarkets and restauranteurs the right to sell the fish. I’ve resisted calling for this extreme a measure for a long time. But I’m afraid its time has come, coupled with stronger limitations on the millions of recreational anglers who are taking far too many of the big spawning females – and with curtailing the slaughter of tons of baitfish, menhaden and herring. The striped bass has been called the aquatic equivalent of the American bald eagle. We can’t let this most majestic of our fish species once again find itself on the brink of disappearing.

This is just ones fisherman's opinion, and certainly in no way scientific, but the state of the striped bass is in trouble, I think. I have been chasing striped bass almost 36 years now but for the past 5 or 6 years I have noticed a dramatic decline of the numbers of stripers I have encountered . During that period I have fished,in the surf, about the same number of times( 85 to 110 trips) and in the same places with exception of last season. In '08, I could not fish every location I generally do because of a physiscal problem, however, I did manage about 86 trips in alot of good striper holes.. Anyway, during the last few seasons I have landed approx. 150 to 250 bass. Previous to that, I would routinely catch that many by the end of May, and by the end of each season, catch and release anywhere from 600 to 800 bass. What is very disturbing is the lack of small fish, the schoolies. Save for the early to mid spring, I have not seen any numbers of this size fish for the rest of the season. The" Fabulous Falls " have been almost non existent over the last 5 to 6 years. School sized fish could even be counted on even in the so-called bad years before the moratorium. I don't know where they are now! Yes, ther are alot of big fish around for some, just like the late 70's and early 80's but look what happened back then! Moreover, talk to bass fisherman from Maine. Their season was an all out bust in '08. Charter Captains gave up the ghost and went smallmouth bass fishing I'm told. Something is wrong and as others have said, we need to get all the data we can and make some intelligent decisions, soon.

What really gets my nuts in a vice (and I'm not singling anyone out) is guys that in one thread (not necessarily this one) say the bass are in trouble... Yet post pictures of BIG dead bass they kill for a contest or sale...

I keep fish to eat, don't get me wrong. But if YOU think there is a problem how about changing YOUR actions as a first step.

-putting on my asbestos suit.

Jay, you are correct. I do release everything, almost everything. It is sometimes very tough to release a big, big fish for alot of reasons, mostly self serving. I guess we all have to learn to put back, no matter what the cost. I released several large fish this year and it felt good.

I too have read "Striper Wars". This was a very informative book.

It seams as though we are in agreement that the Striped Bass population is in danger. It also seams like most of us can also acknowledge that the bait fish being scarce is a huge problem as well. Striped Bass, in addition to menhaden, mackerel, squid, herring etc. need to have some stricter laws guarding them to keep the fishery on the East Coast safe IMO.

Finally, let's not bad mouth a well intentioned group like Stripers Forever. They work so hard and put tons of time in to protecting the fish we so dearly love. Is it possible that they are missing a couple pieces in their argument? Sure. But, I also consider them to be smart individuals that probably know some information that we don't. For example, if it would be smart to lump the striped bass in with all of the bait fish to be protected. It probably needs to happen one step at a time. First the bass, then the bait. Definitely an argument can be made for doing it the other way around, but either way at least they are out there fighting the good fight. And for that I say :cheers: to Stripers Forever.

What really gets my nuts in a vice (and I'm not singling anyone out) is guys that in one thread (not necessarily this one) say the bass are in trouble... Yet post pictures of BIG dead bass they kill for a contest or sale...

I keep fish to eat, don't get me wrong. But if YOU think there is a problem how about changing YOUR actions as a first step.

-putting on my asbestos suit.

J, I agree that change will have to start at home. Problem being that as long as every angler is within their legal right to take an amount of fish, the amount of fish taken is not going to change. I do not think anglers are going to take less fish.
As of last year, I started to commercial bass fish in earnest. I will continue to do so this year. Please do not interpret the fact that as a commercial fisherman (albeit very part time) that I am not conservation minded. I think many comms are like myself. If the comm catch is quota based, that quota will be filled by someone.
I think, as many others do, that the fishery is in trouble, but we do not get that impression from the Managers of the resource. Therefore, what isn't broken doesn't need to be fixed.
The ASMFC has a meeting scheduled for early Feb. It is important to me to see what comes from the striped bass board and menhaden board in particular. Art

Either 1 fish @36"
OR a slot limit like Maine coast wide.
1 @ either 20-26" or over 40" NO more 2 fish...
Fix the forage (which does not mean ban ALL menhaden fishing)
Tighter regulations on pirates/poachers.

Sea Flat - I don't want to seem like I'm bad mouthing them, i'm sure they are smart people. I do ZERO commercial fishing and I am not an advocate of Commercial fishing - I'm neutral to it. I think the problem with the fish is a combination of pressure and more importantly, habitat/forage. What is going to fix the fish? Stopping Commercial fishing specifically for Striped Bass? Or fixing the Habitat and Forage?

I'm willing to bet the latter. For all of Striper Forever's ability to unite a tremendous amount of anglers, I would truly applaud them if they were able to do it more in the interest of the fish ~ Forage & Habitat ~ than who gets to fish for them. Deciding who gets to fish for them is kind of like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, it does little to save the fish. Now if Stripers Forever was calling for a 35% reduction (arbitrary number) of fishing pressure by both Commercial AND Recreational fishers, AND making significant inroads to protecting FORAGE, I would be impressed. Otherwise it smells like is a grab that does not address the core issues, total fishing pressure AND habitat/forage protection.

BTW - good thread Art...

Until that happens - in my opinion :musc: and until others can change my thinking :rtfm: - Stripers Forever is missing squandering their tremendous potential...

Tighter regulations on pirates/poachers.

This is one that I strongly agree with. Everyone still remember the news article from a few weeks ago - $500 fine for a few tons of bass, and the third offense that week alone.

When I'm at the canal, I appreciate that the Rangers drive up and down checking people's catch, pulling the measuring tape out. Even still, you find people keeping shorts all the time at the canal. It's certainly impossible to catch everyone, but how about we make it really bad for the ones that are caught. At the very least, "You have 3 shorts in your cooler, and this is not your first offense... Thanks for the pickup truck and nice fishing gear."

Some people might say that fines would be ineffective because some people keeping shorts may be poor. Fine, take all of their gear and every piece of fishing equipment in their truck.

Lots of good points. Often times, we equate the quality of fishing with what we experience personally. This may or may not be representative of the big picture.

On one hand, you have to buy into and trust the managers judgement to a degree. Many of them are responsible for the great fishery we have right now. Yes, it seems there may be a few less fish, but I also believe its a distribution thing. Fish show in different places in different quantities each year. This is one of the things that supports the landings as a % of total biomass method of managing the population.
My last point/question is this.....how many(stripers) fish should there be in the ocean? Do we need to walk on the backs of 50# fish? Keep in mind populations of fish and wildlife will fluctuate even without harvest. What is the true definition of a healthy population?

Flap and Crafty, I am ignorant to this whole subject and really rely on what educated people say on the topic, however I don't understand the fix the bait logic. I guess I see tons of bait. Menhaden have made a major comeback, we've had some massive squid runs over the last 5 yrs or so. What issues do you see with the bait? I think nature has a way of fisinxg that. If the amounts of the striped bass were to suddenly increase, wouldnt they just seek new species to forage on? Theres plenty od snapper blues, crabs, etc?
Not arguing, just done understand the logic.
If I was king for a day, I'd make a 1 fish limit and no commercial. Selfishly just so there are more fish to catch for me. I dont understand the science

You can trust the govt and thier scientists. Before you do go to fisheries meetings for a few years. Look the people sitting at the tables in front in the eye and make a judgement.

Consider how the country has done the past 8 years with the experts in charge.

Just food for thought.

I believe the forage / baitfish issue is not just for the northeast, but the entire eastern seaboard. If the fish spawning down south are starving due to overfishing for menhaden, it will directly affect the future stock of fish that will eventually migrate here each spring.
Underfed, weak and diseased fish will drop out of the spawning cycle, decreasing the YOY each season.

I agree that just (over)regulating the striper catches isn't going to fix the stocks overall health. Something needs to be done to keep the menhaden, herring, squid and other baitfish IN THE BASS'S LIFECYCLE and not on our grocery/baitshop shelves.

Why elevate the bass to gamefish status only to watch it's stock numbers soar then be unable to feed itself?


:uhuh:

May I also add that with those increased numbers, their predators(seals) will flourish even more by chowing on more bass than they already do now, and why is that? because seals have been given free reign gamefish status, no I mean protection. We will be eating seals soon, because that's all that's left :gorez:

:deadhorse:

Having fished for stripers for over 45-years and doing about 100 trips a season I have experienced about the same results as Steve put in his post. Being at the northern end of the stripers range I think we may see issue before others. Over the last six years I've seen a real decrease in the number of fish. Last season there were more bigger fish then I've seen in any season but the drop in the number of small fish was scary. This is about the same as I saw in New Jersey when I lived there just before the stock collapse.

Unlike others I am a strong supporter of making stripers a game fish. The reason mainly is how do you convince fisherman to let stripers go when others are catching them for money. It is a standard reason I here from people who keep every legal fish they catch. Also from an economic stand point and human standpoint the most important group in the quest for stripers is the recreational fisherman. The money coming from the sale of stripers is nothing compared to the money spent by recreational fisherman. Plus, if you made stripers a game fish then I think more people would be open to stricter limits.

It is often said that the striper recovery shows what good management can do. To me the recovery should be looked at a miracle. If that large young of the year class had not come out of no where the recovery either never would have happened or it would have been much slower. Just look at what is happening up on the grand banks with cod.

I've been saying the same damn thing since I joined the site seven years ago-and I've been jumped on for it. But I don't care. Monitor and regulate the forage base throughout the gamefishes range. Limit the comm. fishing to people who fish for a living, not weekend warriors who want to make a quick buck yo-yoing. And, like it or not, we probably need to have a recreational licensing program to help pay for monitoring the increasing number of anglers.(and poachers)

Gotta admit human involvement is all over this problem. Pollution,big buisness, commercials and recs. We all have our hands in the pie. Personally I blame it all on the seals, including the economy,Iraq,liberals,etc.

Anecdotally speaking here, but starvation is about the last culprit I would suspect right now. In fact I saw more well fed fish in 2008 than I've seen in 20 plus years of fishing. Probably the abundance of bunker I would guess.

Not where we used to fish Mike. Most were pretty lean. However when trolling squid bars with mark out on stellwagon, very fat fish would come up into the spread, good eats out there I suppose. Some of my best bass were caught on the 130's, shame.

Anecdotally speaking here, but starvation is about the last culprit I would suspect right now. In fact I saw more well fed fish in 2008 than I've seen in 20 plus years of fishing. Probably the abundance of bunker I would guess.

Good point, Mike. Often times, we equate the quality of fish with what we experience personally. This may or may not be representative of the big picture. paraphrasing you a little :shocked:

I don't know if gamefish status is the answer but I wouldn't mind it to be honest. Managing the menhaden will definitely help but killing fewer bass is the surest way to increase the population. Whether this is done by cutting back the rec or comm amount taken is academic it just needs to be done. I imagine the easiest way would be to cut back both, this way neither side feels shortchanged. Other steps to manage the chesapeake as well as forage also need to be taken but I think as far as Striped Bass are concerned killing fewer of them is the first and surest way to help them.

Not where we used to fish Mike. Most were pretty lean. However when trolling squid bars with mark out on stellwagon, very fat fish would come up into the spread, good eats out there I suppose. Some of my best bass were caught on the 130's, shame.

Bob, it seems like they were always skinny out there now that you mention it. I can't count the number of 50" fish I caught that didn't break the 40# mark. Lots of times they had skates/lobsters in them too.
I don't fish out there anymore, but the canal/buzzards bay vicinity fish were well fed this year.

:uhuh:

May I also add that with those increased numbers, their predators(seals) will flourish even more by chowing on more bass than they already do now, and why is that? because seals have been given free reign gamefish status, no I mean protection. We will be eating seals soon, because that's all that's left :gorez:

:deadhorse:

seal tastes good.... boilem , mashem, put them in a stew.

Hi Everyone,

This is a subject that I know a little bit about. I worked with National Geographic on two projects related to mycobacteriosis: “Strange Days on Planet Earth/Dirty Secrets” and “Wild Chronicles”.

As for Capt. Jim White’s assessment of the situation as being grim…well it is! Jim DOESN’T make assumptions, he bases his conclusions on FACTS. I’ve followed this situation for years, read most of the studies and concur with Jim White and #^&#^&#^&#^& Russell.

Yes, there is a need for ecosystem wide management of both game fish and forage fish. This was recommended to Congress in 1999; it’s been 10 years and we don’t even have workable models for dealing with this complex issue. Add to this the relatively new threat of midwater and pair trawling off OUR coast and it’s a surefire recipe for disaster. You think we have problems with forage fish now, you can’t even begin to imagine the rape of the resource that is going on RIGHT THIS MINUTE off our coast. The mackerel stocks off RI that could have sustained the local day boats for a couple of weeks were decimated in ONE TOW late last week by one of these huge boats. Check out http://www.comminternet.com/websites/choircoalition.org/media/detail.php?id=28
and get an idea of the scope of the problem. Want to know where your river herring are? They got scooped up with the targeted Atlantic herring and with little observe coverage to document the bycatch we have little hope to get the proper time and territory closures we need to protect the bluebacks and alewives. Think the bass are skinny now (and they are malnourished in many of the areas I film in -- which translates to areas you fish in) wait till they arrive this spring and find fewer herring, fewer mackerel, and possibly fewer menhaden.

Yes the fish in the Chesapeake are under extreme duress…in fact, a noted expert on the subject of gut content has established that one of the peak periods for feeding takes place right around now, IN THE WINTER (something biologists believed didn’t happen), in order to help fortify their reproductive systems for upcoming spawning. The problem is that there are far too few menhaden age 0 to provide adequate nourishment for the pre-spawn fish that are too small to eat mature menhaden…see http://www.chesbay.org/articles/latest.asp for more details.
Let's not forget a growing dead zone in the Chesapeake, over nitrification of the bay with run off from the poultry industry (which may be getting a stay of execution from having to deal with their immense contribution to this problem -- got to love big business and their influence).

In the past I couldn’t support game fish status for stripers simply because a well managed stock should provide enough fish for both recreational and commercial interests. However, over the past several years I’ve seen more and more pressure put on the stocks by both user groups. Yes, the recreational take is massive, however the commercial quotas never seem to be high enough for the commercial interests and the black market fishery is completely out of control. How many pirates do you know? How many pseudo-commercial fishermen are out there looking to offset boating and fishing expenses? How many “anglers” sell fish at the back door of a restaurant? How many tons of undersized fish make it to market? How many fishermen exceed their quota and look at a fine as a reasonable cost of doing business? How much meaningful enforcement is there out there?

Consider all of the above and all the anecdotal evidence that the fishery is in decline and it’s time to do something NOW.

I’m not sure that game fish status is a winnable battle, but when I hear commercial striped bass fisherman, who also run charter boats say that they would like to see a halt to the commercial fishing because they would rather have a successful charter business rather than an ever shrinking commercial catch that eventually leads to a collapse and then no business at all.

So what do we do? Talking about it on the site is fine for spreading the word and getting more public awareness, but talk is not going to make one bit of difference. You need to go to the meetings and voice your outrage with the current situation. You need to support organizations that our working to correct these problems. Game fish status for striped bass…I’m still on the fence, but it won’t take much for me to say, enough is enough -- the resource needs to be saved.

Remember, history has a way of repeating itself.

Mike

I don't think there's any doubt that things are not what they were 8 or 10 years ago. I've basically stopped fishing for stripers except maybe Mid June in the canal or Joppa, and even there they're not what they were. The fall migration has become almost a shadow of what it was. If we have to have another moratorium, so be it, but definitely something needs to be done about the herring situation, and closing the runs isn't the whole answer.

he's right about the cheasapeake. The health of the largest estuary in the United States is comparable to a morbidly obese woman.

Not sure if somebody already said this because I got sick of reading all the posts, but the bill proposes the closure of the commercial fishery and imposing a slot limit on the recreational angler (exactly the same as Maine's).

To say that closing the commerical fishery won't help is ludicrous! If you take the privillege of taking 30 fish per day away from the best striper anglers in the world you're going to save a lot of fish.

Anyone who thinks that Stripers Forever is going to then run with this and take away striper fishing or something silly like that is lost in space. Just like people who are afraid the president is going to take away guns or something like that, their ideas have to be voted upon and therefore no one person or oragnizations beliefs can be forced into law. I hear the voices of some people who are going to miss taking a few weeks off from work in the summer to go fishing everyday if this bill passes in this thread.

It has already been proven that fisheries managers and fishermen have no idea how to fish with care and that we have no problem (or qualms about) pushing fish stocks to their breaking point. There are just about no inshore cod left anywhere south of Plymouth (to my knowledge) and the cod stocks in the Maritimes have not recovered after a 10 year moratorium. Our fishermen are very good at what they do and these voices in here sound eerily the same as those that echoed out in the years before the last collapse.

How can you say that closing the commercial fishery won't work? It worked last time! And it's at least a step right direction, if we get people used to the idea of conserving a commercially harvested fish, it might be easier to turn them on the menhaden and sea herring.

Preserving the species should be 100 times more important than making some extra cash this summer. Yes I had my commercial license last year, but it just gave me a sick feeling killing all those fish and I have chosen not to renew it this year.

I say close it up, and bring on the slot limit, we haven't tried that combo yet and we need to save these fish, and we shouldn't wait until it looks really bad.

If you don't like Stripers Forever, (I have no opinion about them btw), then someone needs to form a new organization, because they are the only people actively fighting for anything releated to the striped bass in the mainstream anyway. Maybe RFA should get involved? Or maybe all of us should stop crying online and make a step for own future instead of just sitting by and then sobbing over the results?

Was that too cut throat? :laughs:

"The new Massachusetts Striped Bass Conservation Bill prohibits the sale of wild striped bass in the Commonwealth and sets a recreational daily bag limit of one striper measuring between 20 and 26 inches, or alternatively, one fish of 40 inches or greater per angler."

This is a direct quote from their press release

One fact that all you guy screaming about the menhaden need to take into account. When stripers are first born and in their larval stages in the chessie and hudson, menhaden are their biggest predators.

As is the american eel.
Isn't funny that when they get larger they turn the tables?

In the past I couldn’t support game fish status for stripers simply because a well managed stock should provide enough fish for both recreational and commercial interests. However, over the past several years I’ve seen more and more pressure put on the stocks by both user groups. Yes, the recreational take is massive, however the commercial quotas never seem to be high enough for the commercial interests and the black market fishery is completely out of control. How many pirates do you know? How many pseudo-commercial fishermen are out there looking to offset boating and fishing expenses? How many “anglers” sell fish at the back door of a restaurant? How many tons of undersized fish make it to market? How many fishermen exceed their quota and look at a fine as a reasonable cost of doing business? How much meaningful enforcement is there out there?

Consider all of the above and all the anecdotal evidence that the fishery is in decline and it’s time to do something NOW.

The only sector who has increased their "pressure" is the recreational.

Recs are killing 2/3 as many fish as they are keeping and they are already taking 80% of all the fish. Their discard mortality is equal to all the commercial landings and discards....so who do the fish really need saving from?

Dave ;;

I agree & disagree ;;

that bill or whatever is only in Mass . so yes it will put the mass commercials OOB / & with a slot / have it more difficult to keep a bas s . But lets be realistic
I don,t know all the numbers especially by state .. RI,s commercial R & R season is a joke / 5 fish a day per week /with the days being Sunday Thru Thursday . & the spring season closing in two weeks or less / while the fall season can start as 3 or 5 fish a day / then they close it short again / even if the fish arn,t coming in / then they open it again & in the last few years its been open longer /because by then they can,t reach the yearly Quota so they have opened it to draggers .
The traps are part of the quota & the size they are allowed to sell is smaller than the R&R .
IMO .. do you really thing stopping just MA , R&R from commercial fishing & a slot is going to turn this around .
For the most part / Ma commercial season was a bust . not many boats did 30 per day / & for those that did there were plenty that couldn,t get 5 /
After all this is said & done / how is this going t change the status of the striper population .
Millions & millions of pounds will still be taken by rec,s up & down the coast & add the commercial dragging that is allowed down south ... It looks ike from here .. that its a sword thru the Ma R&R & a band aid to the mass REC,s
have have no interest in Mass commercial tooooo F #$%^&*( old to play that game anymore ;
bait or no bait . it does have some effect /but the actual reduction of the stripers [again] is a combination of all of the above / plus pollution issue .s & disease ;;;
the C/B had a 25 year plan to clean it up / but as I said before it was a recommendation //& not a law / so the fencing that was suppose to keep the actual [%$%$%$%$} from farm animals washing into the small creeks & streams & eventually into the C/b system . never happened & now 25 years lTER & AROUND 6 BILLION DOLLARS LIGHT / THEY are talking about doing approx the same thing . / by excluding the famers / mostly the chicken farmers ;

If anyone has worked on a dragger of anysize [even] for a week / then they have seen what they catch & what by catch / undersize / off season fish are sholved back over the side ;;;

this is a whole lot larger than Stripers forever going to try & make it a game fish in JUST Mass .

that would do as much good as pouring a 8oz . glass on beer in a 55gal. barrel that has a whole in it ;;;

Just my honest opinion & observation of being on the water 50 years .. not 3 months on weelends .,.,

Carry on MIKE

Short and sweet!......Protect the baitfish first.

Dave ;;


IMO .. do you really thing stopping just MA , R&R from commercial fishing & a slot is going to turn this around .
For the most part / Ma commercial season was a bust . not many boats did 30 per day / & for those that did there were plenty that couldn,t get 5 /


Well, the final #'s for 2008 aren't posted yet but I'm sure they came close if not hit the quota.. I know they were over 1/2 way there in a month..which Is down from years past but still a sh!tload of fish.
They have exceeded their quota of over 1,000,000lbs since 2003 (that's only because that's as far back as I could find records for). My info came from the Massachusetts Department of Fish and Game website... So..yes..that WILL have a huge effect on the SB population alone, imagine if they started cutting in in '03.

BTW.. I have had a MA comm. lic. in the past...and sold many fish legally.........and I will not discount getting it again,,,

IF THE STRIPED BASS POPULATION WAS IN TROUBLE LIKE IS BEING SAID BY SOME, THEN WHY ISN'T THE BLUE FISH HEARD HAVING PROBLEMS? I SAW MORE FISH THIS YEAR THAN EVER BEFORE. PERHAPS THERE IS MORE BAIT IN THE WATER THAN YOU THINK AND THE FISH ARN'T MOVING AROUND AS MUCH. JUST BECAUSE YOU WENT TO YOUR FAVORITE FISHING SPOT AND GOT SKUNKED DOSN'T MEAN THE BASS POPULATION IS HAVING A PROBLEM.

Dave ;;

I agree & disagree ;;

that bill or whatever is only in Mass . so yes it will put the mass commercials OOB / & with a slot / have it more difficult to keep a bas s . But lets be realistic
I don,t know all the numbers especially by state .. RI,s commercial R & R season is a joke / 5 fish a day per week /with the days being Sunday Thru Thursday . & the spring season closing in two weeks or less / while the fall season can start as 3 or 5 fish a day / then they close it short again / even if the fish arn,t coming in / then they open it again & in the last few years its been open longer /because by then they can,t reach the yearly Quota so they have opened it to draggers .
The traps are part of the quota & the size they are allowed to sell is smaller than the R&R .
IMO .. do you really thing stopping just MA , R&R from commercial fishing & a slot is going to turn this around .
For the most part / Ma commercial season was a bust . not many boats did 30 per day / & for those that did there were plenty that couldn,t get 5 /
After all this is said & done / how is this going t change the status of the striper population .
Millions & millions of pounds will still be taken by rec,s up & down the coast & add the commercial dragging that is allowed down south ... It looks ike from here .. that its a sword thru the Ma R&R & a band aid to the mass REC,s
have have no interest in Mass commercial tooooo F #$%^&*( old to play that game anymore ;
bait or no bait . it does have some effect /but the actual reduction of the stripers [again] is a combination of all of the above / plus pollution issue .s & disease ;;;
the C/B had a 25 year plan to clean it up / but as I said before it was a recommendation //& not a law / so the fencing that was suppose to keep the actual [%$%$%$%$} from farm animals washing into the small creeks & streams & eventually into the C/b system . never happened & now 25 years lTER & AROUND 6 BILLION DOLLARS LIGHT / THEY are talking about doing approx the same thing . / by excluding the famers / mostly the chicken farmers ;

If anyone has worked on a dragger of anysize [even] for a week / then they have seen what they catch & what by catch / undersize / off season fish are sholved back over the side ;;;

this is a whole lot larger than Stripers forever going to try & make it a game fish in JUST Mass .

that would do as much good as pouring a 8oz . glass on beer in a 55gal. barrel that has a whole in it ;;;

Just my honest opinion & observation of being on the water 50 years .. not 3 months on weelends .,.,

Carry on MIKE

Ya know, I may be one of the few guys who is fluent in Clammish, but he makes sense to me, anyway...:kewl:

Discounting poaching and illegal sales, the numbers just don't work - for all intents and purposes, there aren't any verifiable figures for the take by recreational fisherman targeting striped bass. What is being used now barely even qualifies as a guesstimate, at best.

I don't wanna set fire to my own teepee here, but data collection on that - meaning OUR - side of the fence is way the hell beyond imprecise. It's my understanding that the point of the coming saltwater license is to provide NOAA or NMFS or AFC with more precise numbers on recreational catch to set sustainable size and possession limits to bring striped bass to a sustainable fishery for the future. I hope that's going to be the case but I've got my doubts.

Even if the rec take figures do end up giving the fisheries managers good data, what is it that they intend to do with it? Ya know, it's obvious to just about everyone how important this issue is - and you've got recs and comms in a pitched battle between the two user groups. Striped bass are a common resource for ALL of us.

You want to point a finger at someone? Try pointing it at the fisheries managers - they're not working in the best interests of either us, both recs and comms or the bass. That's the third group in this mess and the one ultimately inflicting the most damage.

An 8 year old kid could tell you why bass are in jeopardy, for chrissakes -

1. You're not letting 'em eat, and
2. You're not letting 'em make baby bass like they used to so there's not enough to catch.
3. Ya gotta leave 'em alone for a little while until they get better. All of ya.

The problem is, there's no political will to do the right thing in terms of habitat and forage - because it's going to be extremely expensive and step on some very big toes in a lot of non-fishing industries. It will also take a paradigm shift in the way in which people have been led to believe they have to live their lives in terms of consumption. And those two issues cover both habitat and forage.

Absolutely no one wants to see a moritorium again - but in a few years there may not be a choice. There's way too much anecdotal evidence from just this board alone that doesn't look good. Everybody will have to take a reduction on an equal basis on a common resource.

To me it seems like the coup de grace for the striper is ultimately going to be delivered by the fisheries managers, if it is indeed going to happen. They're the guys at the helm, not us.

the animal farmers ,,,pigs & chickens ect. are seeing their animal waste as a source for making bio fuel and more money so eventually less of it will be washing into streams and rivers due to run -off...
but........
the use of pelleted grass fertilizers is a whole other dilemma
especially from golf courses ...and parks

i used to see mounds of cattle manure in texas bigger than a football field that was 30' tall... that's all gonna change....

Some good points mentioned in above posts. While a gamefish status in Mass may not make much difference in the "big picture" it would increase the numbers of surviving bass that call Mass waters home for much of the season. Just imagine how many pin hook boats pound Sow & Pigs and Gay Head during the season. Their take is a LOT of quality bass that, if there is no sale, will continue to populate local waters stabilizing the local population. Every bass that is not kept or sent to market is a bass that everyone has a chance of catching in the future. Of course every quality bass that is released increases the amount that a pin hooker can sell.

DZ

Of course every quality bass that is released increases the amount that a pin hooker can sell.

DZ


ya DZ, I do think about that when I release a quality fish , say in the canal during comm season, and i kind of bums me out but then again that fish doesn't have any chance at all if I kept it or another rec. caught and kept it. I'll just keep releasing what I can and hope for the best.



Did clammer really write that?

Either 1 fish @36"
OR a slot limit like Maine coast wide.
1 @ either 20-26" or over 40" NO more 2 fish...
Fix the forage (which does not mean ban ALL menhaden fishing)
Tighter regulations on pirates/poachers.

If our stocks are in trouble do you think it is wise to take a fish that has not yet had the chance to spawn..And easier to catch..
Perhaps a slot of 1 @ 28-34 inches would be better along with one over 45 inches.A truer trophy size type allotment.

I happen to agree I think the stocks are off.I think there are many reasons why from the big trawlers taking herring and mackerel and the like to seals who are ravenous feeders of the forage fish also to the condition of the waters in the breeding grounds.The Hudson fishery is in no great shakes either.The herring run which coincides with the migratory spawning run of the bass is gone....I think at this point any step towards conservation is a good one. We have to start somewhere and build off of it.You cannot ask the herring boats to stop taking the forage till we do what we can on our end as rec's to protect the fishery.
I think one only has to look at the situation of the cod stoicks to see the management of the waters of the GOM need some serious attention..I have seen too many fisheries disappear to never return..

Tony good points... From the MD fish/game website:
http://www.dnr.state.md.us/fisheries/fishfacts/stripedbass.asp

# Female striped bass can mature as early as age 4; however, it takes several years (age 8 or older) for spawning females to reach full productivity.
# Males can mature as early as age 2.

I'm still a 1 fish 36" advocate; it will reduce the amount of fish taken by a lot;

So maybe a little larger slot is appropriate. I'd be more in favor of a larger upper limit; i.e. One @ 28-24" and 45" (just saw you posted the same slot size) and above...

ya DZ, I do think about that when I release a quality fish , say in the canal during comm season, and i kind of bums me out but then again that fish doesn't have any chance at all if I kept it or another rec. caught and kept it. I'll just keep releasing what I can and hope for the best.
Did clammer really write that?

This follows with my earlier post in that it is hard to convince many recreational fisherman to release fish as long as there is a commercial fishery. If you stop commercial fishing it would be easier to convince people to release fish. Plus even more important it would be easier to put stricter catch limits on the recreational fisherman because you would be saving the fish for them.

I wonder if we learned anything from the past. If the numbers are even close to right we are killing bass at a higher rate then we were in the early 70s. Maine, NJ and NH do not allow commercial fishing, if a big user state like Mass stops it may really start the ball rolling. So don't under estimate what this may do.

Tony good points... From the MD fish/game website:
http://www.dnr.state.md.us/fisheries/fishfacts/stripedbass.asp

# Female striped bass can mature as early as age 4; however, it takes several years (age 8 or older) for spawning females to reach full productivity.
# Males can mature as early as age 2.

I'm still a 1 fish 36" advocate; it will reduce the amount of fish taken by a lot;

So maybe a little larger slot is appropriate. I'd be more in favor of a larger upper limit; i.e. One @ 28-24" and 45" (just saw you posted the same slot size) and above...

I am also fine with one at 36"..Makes everything easier..
You cannot believe or maybe you can the education/enforcement nightmare of multiple slot limits..Just go to any busy tackle shop on a saturday afternoon as they try to educate their customers..:conf:
We had something like this in NJ a few years ago.

If the numbers are even close to right we are killing bass at a higher rate then we were in the early 70s. Maine, NJ and NH do not allow commercial fishing, if a big user state like Mass stops it may really start the ball rolling. So don't under estimate what this may do.

I don't feel like we are killing more now than back in the 70's. Back then everything was kept regardless of size becuase there were minimal, if any, regulations other than the 16" size limit.

The Mass commercial season is a joke to me not due to the amount thats harvested, but that its a free for all. The biggest issue for me is the ability for an out of stater to purchase a license and harvest the Mass quota. Its simply assinine as there is no reciprocal with other states that allow commercial harvest. I don't support full exclusivity on the license, meaning only "full time" commercials can or should harvest all the fish. The Mass resident taxpayers should reap the benefit of exclusivity versus allowing any other states to participate.

My personal take is there's still a lot of fish, although there may be fewer than 10 years ago following the moratorium. I don't fully buy the Myco epidemic either. I think its seemingly more prevalent because its being talked about more. I'm also basing my views on what I've experienced and I haven't seen many myco laced fish in my travels.

I have seen em where I fish.The infected fish that is.They are nasty they run from a few sores to full on popcorn puss balls.
I have at times cut my line so's not to have to touch em.
Nasty stuff..
Even if you don't believe the stocks are in trouble.Why not err on the side of protecting the fish.??
It's the safe bet..

B/B

Your right .. anyone can get a Ma. commercial license / that why [I thnk} its in the neighborhood of 5000 of them .

In RI it is a very limited entry .. I believe there are 2 or 3 available for 2009 .
So the last few springs /when we have had alot of market size bass in the bay ......... guys that wanted in .were SOL >>. it least RI is very strick of issuing any kind of commerciL FISHING LICENSE . you can,t get a quohaug license or clam license either // again that fishery too will let a very few into that industry / soley based on the stock & license that didn,t renew for one reason or another .
Back when licenses were readly available / ..everyone had them Inculding out of start anglers // & there are still OOS anglers the fish RI commercially
When they put the freeze on the catching & keeping & selling of stripers . many of these people didn,t renew their licenses ... I can,t count the number of guys that are pissed they let thier licenses go ..
even many diggers / that,s a tough way to make a living & often when a guy has a opportunity to get a real job // they grabbed it ... then things went sour & they also are SOL .

We /the average guy doesn,t even know how many people actually sell fish .
the state does because we have log books that have to be filled out in detail on a daily basis & turned into the state quarterly ;
the reason being / the average commercial fisherman does n,t know .. if that @ one time RI issued a Multi-purpose license / which almost covered all kinds of commercial fisheries . This lincense is no longet available thru the state . The only way one of these can be transferred / if a fisherman has documated proof of so many landing in a certain period of time & he sells his whole business . his complete fishing rig // & even then the paperwork is passed thru the level in the dem & is approved by a high level offical '
getting back to the M/P licenses that are still active .. we don,t know how many are being used for what .. some may be being used for only one fishery / while others may being used in a few / I know alot of guys th a t have the M/P license that only are doing one fishery / but they were wise enough to keep paying the additional fee to keep the M/P ,,, that has always given them a option / Most of us way back used it for mainly digging & fishing / no clue now ;;


Slip >>>yA possed out of the plug forum :wave:

LOTS of GOOOOD points being stated here;

i firstly and foremostly have to agree with the Fixing of the Forage.

gamefish status seems, imho, to be a moot point if the increased #'s of stripers must work harder to locate their first choice and best nutritional value ~bunker, lb for lb~ bang for the buck that they have been foraging on for centuries. could the increase in the "racers" population be a result of myco bact. AND a decrease in READILY available menhaden???

i imagine this racer stock having to swim farther and farther and already low on nutrition from their nutriously deficient breeding grounds~~~~~~~~~then as they return to their migratory haunts, the same lack of menhaden than say X number of years ago, contributes to a "sickly" stock base that might be more susceptable to myco bacteriosis where they breed and less nourished when they return to the same menhaden depleted OBX. seems like a vicious, multiplying, and repeating cycle that has yet to reach it's MAX potential for disaster,,,,,,,,,,

i say that the Omega Proteins of the world need to diversify and find alternative sources for fish oil and they can plant soy beans for chicken feed!! why not farm the menhaden and leave the wild ones ALONE?? i'm no rocket scientist; but it seems to me that a soy bean field would be onehelluvalot cheaper to service and maintain than a fleet of purse seiners and their spotter planes~~ FOGEDDAH BOUT the indisputable damage that has been done to the Atlantic Coast Stock of Menhaden. human GREED knows no bounds and often will not stop until her obese adzzz is getting her stomach stapled with a fistful of oreos(bunker) in onehand, boatloads of CASH in the other, and her feet firmly planted on the necks of stripers,,,,,,,,,,,,,

on a another tine of this multi-pronged discussion,

while i am quite sure that Mister McKenna's anecdotal observations are very true and accurate,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,from my limited experience and in the "samplings" that i found from '08 i ran into schoolies first in the spring to june from DI to GLCSTR, then i had a better year than in '07 for keepers by size and pb and less racers than '06 and '07 combined. also, the Fall began with a run of schoolies after a great year of big fish up Cape Ann way, and i missed the blitzes due to mucho work. my numbers may be skewed and i fished much less than in '07, but i C&R many fish that covered the entire spectrum of sizes and what seems to be the "right" pattern of progression?? and for the first time in three years i ran into fall morning boos and a deep of the night beached fall inshore cod on the Other Cape in '08. what this ALL means, is for the marinebiologists, but from this layman's perspective seems "normal".

lastly, regarding the liscensing/slots/fisheries mngmnt debate,

i will say this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,i will concurr with Bryan and others in that we need slots or 1@36"+ with just a coupla provisos. WHEN the feds/states enact this liscensing tariff, i hope and pray that the monies are targeted monies that will and MUST go back into research, enforcement, and parks and recreation.

notsomuch for me and my selfish desires to win back some of the shoreline from the bluebloods and their politicos, but in the interest of proferring the opportunity to pass-on the quintessential NE experience to the generations that will follow,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,our legacy must not only deal with the matters at hand ~~and they ARE multiple~~but we must also consider our children and our children's children.

certainly the Narragansetts from the 1200's - 1700's were responsible enough to ensure that their future peoples had stripers to eat, sell, trade. are we THAT much more shallow and THAT less considerate of one of God's greatest provisions (to include the oceans, the forage, and the species) that we could repeat the atrocities of 80's and the decimation of the American Bison?? both were proud species that flourished and were managed most effectively without phd's, science, mangmt councils, or a gov't that could care less about what's GOOD for its God given resources. these precious commodities were respected by a peoples that knew their intrinsic values for the GOOD of the whole planet and for the enrichment of their immediate, intermediate, and their lives ad infinitum.

i am fully aware that THESE are different times, but WHO
made them this different and at WHAT monumentous COSTS??
for once i would like to see the US of A proact instead of react,
since the latter is always too little too late and wreaks irrepairable
damage more often than NOT!!!

just sum thoughts,,,,,,,,,gents,,,,,,,,,,carry on!
:grins: :grins: :grins:

Some of the same people who complain about taking 2 bass a day will take 2-3 dozen bunker or other baitfish per day and have no problem with it at all. I grew up catching bass with live pogies. Then they disappeared from our waters. As soon as they came back everyone hit them hard and acted like they discovered that live bait catches big bass. No kidding!! We all have look at life in the oceans differently than we once did. Protect it from the bottom up. You can,t have numbers of Stripers skyrocket while baitfish numbers drop. So protect the baitfish and where they live first. Otherwise it won,t work. IMO

So what do we do? Talking about it on the site is fine for spreading the word and getting more public awareness, but talk is not going to make one bit of difference. You need to go to the meetings and voice your outrage with the current situation. You need to support organizations that our working to correct these problems. Game fish status for striped bass…I’m still on the fence, but it won’t take much for me to say, enough is enough
Mike


Well said Mike....this bit above is the actual bottom line...less than 6 recreaitonal fishers at the last dozen hearings on bunker and river herring...this is why we loose.

One fact that all you guy screaming about the menhaden need to take into account. When stripers are first born and in their larval stages in the chessie and hudson, menhaden are their biggest predators.

Nature knows what it,s doing. It,s been doing it for millions of years. And now your going to step in with a better plan. laughable..priceless.

Well said Mike....this bit above is the actual bottom line...less than 6 recreaitonal fishers at the last dozen hearings on bunker and river herring...this is why we loose.

i would LOVE to be more visual,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

yet, aren't most of these meetings when
us blue collar guys are working :bl: :bl:??

if memory serves the last couple of meetings were being held
around 10:30 and in Providence, when i work/live in Boston/NShore.

makes it kinda tough to participate, but i did send an email
the last time you told us to fire something off about the
herring bycatch losses,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,what can i do on w/ends, brah??

I have sent my request to Sen Menard and my reps asking them not to support this bill. I do not think that MA commercial fisherman, including myself on a part-time basis, should be shut out of the fisheries. I do not buy the SF line. That being said, I posted my thoughts about the desease elsewhere and the need to "think about the fishery" and got my a-hole ripped. If the response I received is any indication of the response being sent to the legislature this bill is gonna have a tough time going through.

How can anyone call closing the Commercial Season a moot point? If you really think the recreational set is doing more damage, which over the season they might be, you're still saving over a million pounds of commercial bass not to mention the tens-of-thousands of pounds of hardly mentioned cull fish that get tossed over the side when the 31st to 50th bass of the day is bigger than one they kept earlier that morning.

If you're going to keep the season open. Make it 5 fish per day 7 days a week, all season long, that way there is no "free for all" as BackBeach put it and the market doesn;t flood. You can sell your 20 or 30 at $2.00 pp when the market is flooded or you can stabilize the market by guranteeing a fresh, daily supply the restaurants will put it on the menu and the price will go UP.

Next, make it MA residents only. These two changes would keep the guys who save their vacation time to go fishing everyday to make extra money off the water. No one can justify taking time off to sell 5 fish per day.

If you all want your chance to save the bait
Vote on the new Menhaden Bill in MA, they are trying to open our inshore waters to purse seining for Menhaden again.

We need to organize a F()KING bus trip for this one!

I still think we should close the commercial fishery, we're NOT saving ANYTHING by keeping it open and that really IS the BOTTOM LINE.

-Dave

oooh and not to mention the tens of thousands of pogies that the commerical fleet kills and rigs daily for live, chunk and yo-yo baits. Now what's your next move? :hee:

Dave, the comm fleet is not killing tens of thousands daily,not even close. It may not even be weekly.There are a limited amount of guys supplying bait stores with fresh pogies, but the comm fishermen don't even come close to taking those kind of numbers.

You don't think so? I could be wrong... but I know more than a few guys who won't head out until they have 300 to rig for yo-yoing, chumming and chunking. Maybe TENS of thousands was a bit of an exaggeration but I don't think thousands is.

but the comm fishermen don't even come close to taking those kind of numbers.

How do you know this though? Do you know every commercial fisherman? Just the ammount of guys on the pigs, around the islands and gay head would easily add to up to a few thousand pogies each day if they had 40 each. (I know they take many more than that). And we're no even counting the Cape guys, the guys around Nantucket and the rest of the Vineyard and the Boston Harbor heading north. The more I think about it, the more I think 10,000 might be a possible daily bunker kill, during the commercial season.

Maybe we should make livelining and chunking illegal? :laughs:

In a nut shell, everything should be cut way back - commercial & recreational take for bass, commercial & recreational take for forage, etc...

Now, as pointed out in other posts, if all we are doing is arguing here about it in a circular fashion, we're probably going to argue and argue while the problem gets worse. What Would it take to get people INVOLVED?

What Would it take to get people INVOLVED?

This is where I'm trying to go.

The problem I keep seeing is that people almost seem afraid to fight for any version of this. Especially on here. Now I am not saying that I'm some hero, because I'm just as guilty as the next guy.

If not for people like BasicPatrick and the very-few others that are the one loud voice on the behalf of the millions of recreational fishermen we would be toally sunk. The way the panels that vote on these things are skewed right now, there's already a foot of water on the deck.

Doesn't anyone own a bus...? :laughs: that would be awesome to show up in an S-B.com bus and storm these very important meetings.

Well, you're either on the bus or off the bus, like the Pranksters used to say -

I'm in - no, actually, I'm on -

This isn't state by state because it does little to mandate a change in just one portion of the striped bass range - but it could be the start of a groundswell of support for tighter regs on BOTH sides of the issues - and we - recs and comms - BOTH have to take a hit on limits to preserve a common resource.

You can sort out the rest of the crap later but that aspect will never be fully resolved anyway as to who was to blame - there's plenty of it to go around and no one is faultless. The pissing contest just gets in the way of the objective and we all have a stake in the effort one way or another.

This could be the start of a groundswell at a grassroots level - the time could very well be right. Just keep your ****ing finger in your pocket for now and stop wasting time and energy if you actually want to get something done about it.

Hmmmm....I don't suppose anyone on this board owns a bus, do they? ;)

Funny, while editing it appears a couple of other posts popped up with the same question...:hihi:

Let's try and do this then.

If we're going to have a loud voice, we're going to have to make it easy for people to have their voices heard. A bus trip sounds easy enough and it would probably be a blast.

Patrick, if you're reading this thread. Have they set a date for this Menhaden Meeting?

This has worked before. I was talking to a well-known writer yesterday who told me the story about when MA was trying to impose a saltwater license where the money was to be destined for the "general fund". They organized a bunch of anglers and protested. Governer Weld stopped by to ask what the commotion was about, the next week's cover of The Fisherman was governer Weld holding one of the protesters signs. The next week, this writer and his friend were witness to the tearing up of the bill.

So it can work.

Hey, baahhdy - godtham guy, this heah could be pretty good - everbody knows we got troublesh ova heah with the stroipesh...:hihi:


All attempts at injecting a little levity into a serious situation aside, it could work well if the effort maintains a centrist position on behalf of the fishery.

A bus trip sounds easy enough and it would probably be a blast.


But how r u gonna get them to the bus??? Door to door pick up?? Could be a long trip.... Better be a beer bus..:cheers: And throw in a few Hooters girls..That'll get Clammer on board..:fury::love::):drool:

The meetings are Jan 26th Gloucester 6pm
Jan 27th Plymouth 6pm.
I think

we all have our own opinions / & that will never change ..

but its much more complicated than geting a bus of guys & storm [one] meeting .

As Crafy stated .. you get fisherman to agree ..then you walk on water ;

when I was allowed to be a real commercial fisherman & alot younger [[not this tease to applease B/S ;

I went to TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many hearings & meetings ;;& demostrations ;;

it is very difficult / close to impossible to get the fisherman to agree on anything ;;

I wish I had the photos of the protest at the statehouse /also the hundreds of boats in the shellfish fleet that made the long trip [[BACK Then} to the Brown Unitervisity boathouse on the seekonk river >>>>>>>> that day & the boats back then equaled possible diasiaster // weather wise ;;
Also a few of us // under complete secreticy [sp\ made nighttime journey,s to NYC to meet with high ranking goverment officials ;;
WE,ll ><><>< we never won a battle or a war ...... there is always something/someone much more powerful behind the curtain ;;

If you can do it /I sincerly wish you the best .
But personally / been there / done that .. & what time I have left .isn,t going to be spent getting pissed off & on & frustrated ..
I.ll fish as long as I can / & can enjoy whayever kind it can be ;;

My number is getting closer / so I.m trying to enjoy what time I have :::::

Best of luck / I really mean it >>>MIKE

ya gotta start somewhere

Dave ;;

your right / but after / so many times & effort // I,m tired ;;

best of luck ;;


PS ;;going nuts ,its not even close to fishable :crying:

....I went to TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many hearings & meetings ;;& demostrations ;;

it is very difficult / close to impossible to get the fisherman to agree on anything ;;.....

WE,ll ><><>< we never won a battle or a war ...... there is always something/someone much more powerful behind the curtain ;;

If you can do it /I sincerly wish you the best .
But personally / been there / done that .. & what time I have left .isn,t going to be spent getting pissed off & on & frustrated ..
MIKE

Clammer, you're a wise man, my friend -

I'm in the middle of a project right now and I was going to post this earlier but I opted to get some work done -

It's this: You have to realize that's a pretty tall tree you're taking an axe to - with deep roots.

Where ever you start, the end battle is really the reduction fishery and Omega Protein on the menhaden issue.

Omega was a subsidiary of the Zapata Corporation and Zapata was owned by George H.W.Bush, if memory serves.

Tall tree, deep roots and who knows where they go...:huh:

Fisheries managers are also appointees, not elected officials - and they have to toe the line. If I'm wrong on that, I'll admit to it when proven otherwise.

All that having been said, I'd be willing to throw a hat in the ring as time and work schedules allow - but this is just the opening salvo if that's what you have in mind.

Just don't expect shock and awe on the part of the managers - that didn't work either the last time around. It'll be a long campaign.

And to go anywhere at all with it, you're going to have to have everyone rowing the boat in the same direction, like Clammer said.

Uh oh...now it looks like not only am I fluent in Clammish, but we're pretty much on the same channel...:laughs:

Nothing wrong with that - he's got common sense and I know you don't get that for free...:kewl:

To put Omega out of business you're going to have convince an awful lot of politicans to throw their consitituents out of work. To give you an idea of what you are up against, the VA state legislature voted to give omega the menhaden they wanted even if it meant going out of compliance with the ASMFC. Good luck, but I think you're wasting you time, unless and until the menhaden population becomes "overfished" which they are not currently.

How do you know this though? Do you know every commercial fisherman? Just the ammount of guys on the pigs, around the islands and gay head would easily add to up to a few thousand pogies each day if they had 40 each. (I know they take many more than that). And we're no even counting the Cape guys, the guys around Nantucket and the rest of the Vineyard and the Boston Harbor heading north. The more I think about it, the more I think 10,000 might be a possible daily bunker kill, during the commercial season.

Maybe we should make livelining and chunking illegal? :laughs:

I don't fish there too often to be honest.I do not know many comm. guys in MA either. I just know they don't all use pogies and not many comm guys chum.30 or 40 baits is enough to get out there and be effective. It is usually not a fleet out there the way you might envision it.Combine this with the amount of days you can actually fish commercially......

If you look at what is happening in Area 1A right now there will be no herring fishing from 1/1/09 through 5/30/09. Much of this is due to a write in campaign by sport fisherman. There are on going meetings to put in place further restrictions.

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Newsroom/News_2009/News_2009_Q1/Herring_Closure_Public_Hrg_010709.html

Many of the state fishing commissions have an automatic Email system to alert you of up coming meeting and when there looking for public input. If you can't make the meetings write a letter. The sport fishing community is huge and when you throw in the tackle companies and boat manufactures we could have a real say. Instead a much small commericial fishery group has to much say.

I think you all are misunderstanding the intent of what I am saying.

If it took a bus, I might consider trying. But if you look at the fact that it takes 4000 crowbars and 10000000000 pounds of dynamite to get the average recreational angler off his ass to even show up at a meeting (and lately to even voice his or her opinion on a pressing issue online!), the bus and the "storm" are used more in the metaphorical sense. I am trying to encourage people to get involved in something. But all I hear is Clammer poo-pooing it "it's too hard, I'm too tired" and sadly, that is the voice of the New England recreational angler. Then you hear Sea Dangles, saying "Nope it ain't like that, they don't all use pogies." As if that somehow makes my point invalid and leaves the "X" number of pogies killed as OK. Then we hear the overwhelming voices that say that stopping the commercial season will have "no effect" we all know that is not true... but it's EASY. And that's what we all want easy. Easy so we can bitch later about it and type angrily at each other, easy so someone else can do it, easy because it's a lost cause. And it is a lost cause if you all stay home to watch rerruns of SVU or House on the nights of these meetings.

So by all means, sit at home and brood, but don't ever talk about saving the bait or the bass again if you're not willing to do something about it. Because that just makes you look like an idiot.

I'll see you at the Plymouth Meeting, because that's the one that is the easiest one for me to get to.

:eek:

I think you all are misunderstanding the intent of what I am saying.

If it took a bus, I might consider trying. But if you look at the fact that it takes 4000 crowbars and 10000000000 pounds of dynamite to get the average recreational angler off his ass to even show up at a meeting (and lately to even voice his or her opinion on a pressing issue online!), the bus and the "storm" are used more in the metaphorical sense. I am trying to encourage people to get involved in something. But all I hear is Clammer poo-pooing it "it's too hard, I'm too tired" and sadly, that is the voice of the New England recreational angler. Then you hear Sea Dangles, saying "Nope it ain't like that, they don't all use pogies." As if that somehow makes my point invalid and leaves the "X" number of pogies killed as OK. Then we hear the overwhelming voices that say that stopping the commercial season will have "no effect" we all know that is not true... but it's EASY. And that's what we all want easy. Easy so we can bitch later about it and type angrily at each other, easy so someone else can do it, easy because it's a lost cause. And it is a lost cause if you all stay home to watch rerruns of SVU or House on the nights of these meetings.

So by all means, sit at home and brood, but don't ever talk about saving the bait or the bass again if you're not willing to do something about it. Because that just makes you look like an idiot.

I'll see you at the Plymouth Meeting, because that's the one that is the easiest one for me to get to.

:eek:
End It...No matter what u say...guys will be against it...weather they want to or not... Dave..so don't let it get to ya...Negativity by nature.....here....
http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/312/loser3pf.gif

I'm out...:(

For now, that is...

you want to see the fish stocks rebound,start by banning all development within a mile of the water,stop the development of all wetlands.stop chorination of water supplies,stop fertilization of our lawns and farms.you might also want to eliminate bluefish. in the last several years up on the cape i have seen bluefish put more peanut bunker on the beaches to die than any commercial boat would catch in a year. how many peanuts would it take to spread 2 miles long several inches deep by a few feet wide for days on end.ban all fishing not just commercial.in the end it is all up to mother nature.

Well, at least it's good to see that people are recognizing there's a problem earlier on, rather than waiting until the stocks were all but destroyed, as happened the last time, although things have already clearly gone considerably downhill. Unfortunately, the difference this time is that the forage fish are involved as well, not just the striper fisherman. This is going to make doing something much, much, harder than before. Since the commercial guys are going to fight a herring ban, that means things will probably play out about the same as last time; the stocks will continue to decline until they have almost collapsed, then the state governments will have to impose much tighter herring and striper limits. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

oooh and not to mention the tens of thousands of pogies that the commerical fleet kills and rigs daily for live, chunk and yo-yo baits. Now what's your next move? :hee:

Dave, this is the only post I was responding to,don't try to make it what it isn't. If you wish to make a valid point perhaps you would be better served by not using exaggeration or metaphors,rather presenting the facts to lend some credibility. The attack on calamma is also uncalled for given the fact he has obviously walked it and talked it before and appears to be saving his strength for fishing. This noble endeavor you are undertaking is obviously important to you, but a calculated strategy may cast it in a more serious light.

Dave, this is the only post I was responding to,don't try to make it what it isn't. If you wish to make a valid point perhaps you would be better served by not using exaggeration or metaphors,rather presenting the facts to lend some credibility. The attack on calamma is also uncalled for given the fact he has obviously walked it and talked it before and appears to be saving his strength for fishing. This noble endeavor you are undertaking is obviously important to you, but a calculated strategy may cast it in a more serious light.

That was not an attack on Clammer, I was using his words as an example to show what seems to be a consensus among the many that sit back and wait. Clammer is a friend of mine, and all I did was take his words and put them in the mouths of the many who are saying the same things.

When I went to bed last night after submitting that last post, I considered getting back up to delete it because I did write it in the shotgun fashion, more typing, less thinking. :eek5: But I decided that leaving it up there was better because, it might push someone to go and it might piss a few people off... seems I mostly achieved the latter :).

The last thing I want to do is create enemies or spiteful ignorance of an important issue. I brought up the menhanden meeting because so many people were burying the Gamefish Bill in favor of saving the bait. So now we have a chance to make a step toward what was a unified goal -- but it's too hard I guess.

It's obvious that this is going nowhere. So, I guess I'll quit too for now.

I can't, for the life of me, figure out how this became a flame war. It's something we should all want. I guess I'll keep my tongue in my mouth from now on. I should know better anyway. :laughs:

-Dave

DAVE!!

you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, imho.

before everyone goes to beating me up about
my past internet foibles and short time "in the suds",,,,,,,

i am inclined to agree with Dave and his argument,
prima facia, since what he is saying is sincere and VALID!

Clammer wasn't being attacked, it seemed that Canalman
was agreeing with him if you get the giste of Dave's words.
ALSO, exagerration is a fine way of emphasizing a point. BOTH
sides of this debate twist science, manipulate legislation, and
use some form of sensationalism to sway public opinion,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

soooooo, i don't fault Dave for having his opinion and sticking to it
while trying to call more than just a few of us to action. haven't WE ALL agreed that getting a busload of us to agree on anything is miraculous at best??? all the more reason for shame, exagerration, guilt, coupla bombs being tossed ~~most anything short of gunpoint~~ to get a large number of us MOVING towards a common goal.

whether his opinion is based in fact, or IS somehwat exagerrated to
wake someof us UP and get our bums off of our couches, is of little
or no consequence to me when the MAIN OBJECTIVE that i believe
he is shooting for is to promote INVOLVEMENT!!!

this problem that faces our fishery is a multi-faceted and prolonged process that WILL take a progression of wins and losses to arrive at the ultimate GOAL of resolving to do what is best for forage, species, AND estuary. BUT, what is undeniably TRUE is that we must remain resolute and involved with EVERY step of the process. and if tonight COULD start witha BANG??? then has Dave's end justified his means?? in my view, YES!!

amongst several esteemed dissenting opinions,
Dave's task is daunting at best and well worth stepping on a few toesies!!
hope i've not hurt anyone's feelings, and what time and where is the meeting in Plymouth, MA??
i'll sea ya there, CanalDave!!
:wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

OK - Now to completely confuse everyone. The asmfc will be holding their annual meeting next week to do stock assessment.
I've attached some interesting documents relating to the Striped Bass and Menhaden issues.

The striped bass are starving because of no menhaden so where are the menhaden? Answer according to one NC study: Being eaten by the striped bass.

Very interesting and very complex. The asmfc has one tough problem to figuere out.

you want to see the fish stocks rebound,start by banning all development within a mile of the water,stop the development of all wetlands.stop chorination of water supplies,stop fertilization of our lawns and farms.you might also want to eliminate bluefish. in the last several years up on the cape i have seen bluefish put more peanut bunker on the beaches to die than any commercial boat would catch in a year. how many peanuts would it take to spread 2 miles long several inches deep by a few feet wide for days on end.ban all fishing not just commercial.in the end it is all up to mother nature.

mass closed the comm bluefish season last sept because TOO MANY were being caught! go figure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0RBHeI5taU&NR=1

Damn...different thread...still put it in the wrong forum....

Sorry.....:rollem:

Anybody seen the Muzik Forum...:huh:

...Whoops, this is how it started the last time....

...Given the importance of the subject, let's try to keep the discussion gentlemanly and intelligent - while most of us are in the grips of the shack nasties, at the very least, we can agree to disagree...




Well, it sounded good on paper, anyway...:rotflmao:...:rotflmao:...:rotflmao:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0RBHeI5taU&NR=1

Damn...different thread...still put it in the wrong forum....

Sorry.....:rollem:

Anybody seen the Muzik Forum...:huh:

http://img164.exs.cx/img164/7827/offtopic8mg.gif

OK - Now to completely confuse everyone. The asmfc will be holding their annual meeting next week to do stock assessment.
I've attached some interesting documents relating to the Striped Bass and Menhaden issues.

The striped bass are starving because of no menhaden so where are the menhaden? Answer according to one NC study: Being eaten by the striped bass.

Very interesting and very complex. The asmfc has one tough problem to figuere out.

Thank You, DZ

for bringing those minutes to our fingertips.
still perusing the info, but it is rather enlightening.

nice to see that the board does listen to the audience, and
that it does include the people in attendance of their meetings.

so we should be putting together a bus for FEB 2, eh??
how expensive can it be and several voices would be better than one, NO?


FIX the FORAGE!!! sounds like a sweet battle cry to me.
ONE @ 36", ZERO for the COMMies!!!
:bl: :bl: :bl:

the second one is tongue in cheek,,,,,,,,,,,
thanks again, DZ, hope to sea ya this w/e.

Here is a clear way to fix the forage

Honest By Catch.com & MSBA Action Alert

The New England Fisheries Management Council is developing an Amendment or set of regulations to manage observers & by catch in the Atlantic Herring Fishery. This fishery primarily targets Sea Herring and is where the mid water trawl and pair trawl operations are known to catch large amounts of River Herring, Haddock, Scup, Shad, some Striped Bass and more. To learn more about the issue check out www.Honestbycatch.com

Currently, the Herring Oversight Committee is developing alternatives or options for the full council. At their December meeting only one set of alternatives was approved. The whole point of the process is for a range of alternatives to be analyzed for the full council. This step is also important because by the time the proposed regulations are released for public comment, it is too late to add new ideas because of the amount of evaluation that has to be done for an option to be legal.

The next meeting of the Herring Oversight Committee is tomorrow, January 28th at 9:30am at the Sheraton Providence Airport Hotel in RI. One of the items on the agenda for this meeting is for the committee to "review analysis of river herring bycatch in the atlantic herring industry". Links to the full agenda & meeting materials are posted here.

Agenda:http://www.nefmc.org/calendar/index.html

Materials:http://www.nefmc.org/calendar/index.html

Obviously, interested members of the public do not have the time to review all of the meeting materials. However you can still make a difference

The best way for you to make a difference is to attend the hearing because the more recreational fishermen and interested members of the public the more the regulators are able to stand up to industry pressure and write a good regulation. Just being in the room paying attention is important all by itself. If you then wish to speak at the times allowed you can and you do not have to sound like a scientist to do so. At the end of this section we have provided some basic ideas we feel should be included in the options.

Send E-mails & make calls now:
We urge all recreational fishers call and e-mail support of the CHOIR coalition proposal which can be read in the meeting materials link above. Key points to this proposal include:

Prohibit dumping (aka “slippage”) of a net while observers are on board.
Require observers on both vessels in a pair trawl.
Require 100 per cent observers in ground fish closed areas
Require a high level of observers at all times
Use time and area closures for locations known to have a history of by catch incidents

Please contact your state committee members today:

All States
Sally McGee
Environmental Defense
860/572-0190
email:smcgee@environmentaldefense.org

Rhode Island
Mark Gibson, Acting Chief
RI Division of Fish and Wildlife
401/783-8906
email: mark.gibson@dem.ri.gov

Massachusetts
David E. Pierce, Deputy Director
Division of Marine Fisheries
251 Causeway Street
Boston, MA 02114
617/626-1532/Fax:617/626-1509
email: david.pierce@state.ma.us

Maine
Terry Stockwell
ME Department of Marine Resources
21 State House Station
Augusta , ME 04333-0021
207/624-6562/Fax:207/624-6024
email: terry.stockwell@maine.gov

New Hampshire
Doug Grout, Chief, Marine Division
NH Fish and Game Department
225 Main Street
Durham, NH 03824
603/868-1096/Fax:603/868-3305
email: douglas.grout@wildlife.nh.gov

FYI...this is my new project...all on my own but getting endorsed by many including MSBA

A lot of different issues in a lot of different management authorities clashing in this thread. Bottom line is there are a group of us out there doing the work. We need you all to support the clubs that actully have reps at these meeitngs. We need you to respond to calls for action such as the one ongoing today. We need you to show up at hearings. Let's not fight amongst each other. Let's fight to have good regulations and balanced conservation and recreation.

Sorry for the quick response but this week is:

tues pm Ma Inshore Net Hearing in Plymouth
Wed Day NEFMC Herring Oversite Committee in RI
Wed Night MSBA 700th Meeting Cancelled---gotta plow now
Thursday Day MA Ocean Partnership Event all Day in Boston
Thursday PM Neponser River Citizens Advisory Committee (Think River Herring)
Friday....may be breathe


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgAyZEwniao

If I am in attendance at a meeting what should I do to help?

Listen...ask questions...when it is time for comment from audience or public tell em what you think

At the hearing tomorrow I will be there...say hello and I can show you some of the stuff we are supporting...see the meeting materials link above and check out the CHOIR proposal

There are some bullet points that are pretty simple listed above as well

thanks for the interest

Canal, your ambition and fervor is commendable. As I started the thread asking " How does one go about making a difference?" I did not expect a bus to be picking people up! I am, however, on the other side of the commercial/recreational debate. Once again I repeat, that does not imply that I am not preservation minded. As I see it we are not "enemies". As a commercial bass fisherman, a MA resident paying my licensing fee, following the law, why should I not be allowed to fish as such? If the comm season is ended, as you seem to support, are you ready to also close the recreational fishery? I do not see one happening without the other.

This is off the thread a little But [M] mentioned that the commercial Bluefish season in mass was actually closed last season because of too many being caught . while this year in RI >>. the bluefish chase fleet was SOL /because it didn,t happen in the bay .. 1st time I,ve seen this inmany years >> && IMO that was because there was not a steady supply of small bait . they were year . try snagging a pogie & get it in before it was chopped off .
there were some on the beaches this fall // but there couldn,t have been many being taken to market / because the market price in October was .60 P/P >>on the hoof .not gutted . where RI bloooofish price is usually much lower . a fall price is usually anywhere from .40 to .10 >> to we don,t want them ;;
Just a observation .. didn,t mean to jump thread ><><:wid:

Let's see here...I had a minute to breathe and that is now over...here is some comment/thoughts.

A slot of 20-26" + over 40" will do what? Can anyone answer?

I can

It will up the MA recreational catch and mortality numbers by orders of magantude (hundreds of percent)...There is no doubt about this because when Maine instituted it's slot limit the rec catch for the state increased 1900% and they're fishery is tiny compared to MA.

So what does that mean? Can anyone answer that?

I can

It is likely when the MA SB Rec Fishery which oh by the way happens to be the largest on the coast is calculated to be taking so very many more fish, there will be a complete redistribution coast wide and every states mortality will have to be cut, most of all MA. It will be only a few short years of every little kid to old man catching the 20-26" fish that are easily caught before MA has to take a cut. Depending on the amount of mortality required to be cut, we will either take a seasonal reduction or a more strict size limit.

To be more clear...We will without a doubt based on good science be taking a hell of a lot more fish out of the stocks under the proposed conservation legislation.

Oh yeah...by the way...if MA eliminates it's commercial fishery it does not get to not use it and keep it. It might be allowed to do like NJ and give it to the rec catch but it is also posssible there would be a turf war amongst the states that do have a commercial fishery and ASMFC would redistribute the fish.

This will only matter for a year or two because the incredible spike in the MA Rec Catch because of the low end of the slot limit would crash the stock asessment and cause a total redistribution as mentioned above.

Sorry but the science behind this bill is truely "Junk Science"

Just my personal opinion today...watch for formal info in the coming months.

This has worked before. I was talking to a well-known writer yesterday who told me the story about when MA was trying to impose a saltwater license where the money was to be destined for the "general fund". They organized a bunch of anglers and protested. Governer Weld stopped by to ask what the commotion was about, the next week's cover of The Fisherman was governer Weld holding one of the protesters signs. The next week, this writer and his friend were witness to the tearing up of the bill.

So it can work.

I hope the writer was Chuck Casella then VP (I think) but definately an officer of MSBA at the time. Chuck formed the MA Sea Party Coalition...I still got the flyer in my puter...Chuck is now a MA Marine Fisheries Commish

The good thing is Chuck and I are both on the current MA Rec Registry Steering Committee and if that committee gets it's way we will have the license we all have said we could support with a dedicated fund etc etc...if the MA legislature does not accept our proposal and messes with it too much...we go to war opposing the bill letting it fail and let the fed plan kick in....less benefits but less opportunity for abuse as well...but this is a different subject...

Oh yeah...where is my horn..lol...just for the record when peeps that don't go to hearings anymore were telling all on this board that there was definately going to be a license in 2009 it was I, who is on the committee and communicates with others like me from here to DC that predicted we would get a pass for 2009 and sure as hell we did...yep I got some game in the BS department but on this sheet my friends, I do my homework...it's why I am always broke.

Ok I admit you guys got me going now:chatter:smash:

[QUOTE=MikeToole;658818]If you look at what is happening in Area 1A right now there will be no herring fishing from 1/1/09 through 5/30/09. Much of this is due to a write in campaign by sport fisherman. There are on going meetings to put in place further restrictions.
QUOTE]

As one of the guys in that bar in Maine (founding members of CHOIR Coalition) I think it is only fair to say that Mike, you are correct it was a letter writing campaing that started the effort but also we can not forget that the effort was made up of responsible commerical fishers, moderate enviros and recretional leaders that joined to get that effort that continues today (see my action alert from today) off the ground.

I just wanted to say thanks Mike for telling peeps it was a grass roots effort and yes we can make changes when done right...by the way it is dozens of hearings and waiting all day for 15 minute sections of a meeting that get's it done. It is not an overwhelming show of force but a steady reliable ready to roll into action whenever called effort that succeeds in fisheries management.

[QUOTE=DZ;659120]
The striped bass are starving because of no menhaden so where are the menhaden? Answer according to one NC study: Being eaten by the striped bass. QUOTE]

Sounds like politics as usual DZ. Russell shed quite a bit of light on how politics forced the hand of Maryland biologists working on the issues the fish face in C. Bay.

I'd like to know who funded the study that claims the starving bass are eating themselves out of house and home while Omega goes about raping the resource.

Jon

here in n.j. the herring runs of former years has drasticle declined,the bunker runs have improved with adults but few if any peanuts this fall.big fall fishwere few except for monster blue fish that showed up in april and ate everything that swam.stop the herring netting and give the fishery a chance to restock or they will all go the way of the nonexsisting whiting

Let's see here...I had a minute to breathe and that is now over...here is some comment/thoughts.

A slot of 20-26" + over 40" will do what? Can anyone answer?

I can

It will up the MA recreational catch and mortality numbers by orders of magantude (hundreds of percent)...There is no doubt about this because when Maine instituted it's slot limit the rec catch for the state increased 1900% and they're fishery is tiny compared to MA.

.


Your answer assumes nothing more is done to limit recreational kill. If catch/kill rates really did soar out of control, the state could simply implement a season like they have for many other fish (or much better make the slot limit more restrictive say 28-34", 46"+). Continuing to hammer large fish removes the most prolific breeders with the best genetic traits and the quality fish that drive recreational expenditures. A slot limit has worked fine for other fisheries in southern states.