Has anyone done the definitive work on describing the effects and uses of all the different metal lips? I know there are a lot of variables ( size, slot position, shape, as well as plug shape, weight etc) to plug dynamics but a matrix of the different lip parameters would be a handy thing to have reference to.

For my own sanity, I am about to rig the same plug with different lips just to see the differences but and I know that the lip itself is not the be all and end all of the motion. But I have to start someplace.

Could someone here just list all the lips and describe in general what kind of motion they induce? I know this would be helpful for many.

And when we've got that settled perhaps we can discuss the female psyche next?.

Just too many variables to consider Sandman....body shape and weighting of a particular plug has as much to do with how a swimmer works/acts/swims as the lip does so it could vary tremendously.

I'm with Sandman on this, I've been curious about this myself...I always was of the thought that the basic lip designs, even though the different shapes of the plugs would cause a difference in action, must have a general effect on how they move water or affect water as it hits the lip.

Wider lip vs longer lip vs wider & longer....they each must deflect water a different way.

Different lips on the same plug changes the way the plug works....so it must be the effect of the water hitting the lip that causes the change.....so what is each lips general characteristics on water movement.

Answer this, Grasshopper, and you will truly achieve Inner Plug Peace.

Now snatch the Belly Weight from My Hand......

Example: I studied/tested and fished several "Surfsters" when I was designing my "Prey" swimmer. All the models I tried rolled 180 degrees and were unweighted......and I hated them! I was looking for less roll and more wiggle. I simply dropped a shot of "00" in the belly to give it more keel effect along with the 3/0 hooks and achieved the desired action. Just that subtle change with the same lip radically changed the action of the "surfster" style "Prey". I believe weighting will have more to do with the action of a particular plug than will the lip. My .02 cents.....in this economy might not be worth that much but there it is.;)

In general

higher wire holes make the plug dig deeper and make it more stable with more wiggle than roll ( a mid line tie and moving the lip back as on a plastic swimmer creates even more wiggle and less roll)

Lower wire holes keep a plug up but make it less stable and roll/wobble more (which is ideal for surface swimmers meant to be retrieved slowly)

For any given lip length, the wider the lip the more a plug will roll ( I think). Probably this is why they bend the edges on wide pikie lips.

For any given lip width and wire position, the longer the lip the more depth you will get and more wobble at low speeds

increasing the distance between the wire position and the bend in the lip ( like a conrad) increases depth, but adds instability creating wobble and roll.

As for the roll/wobble thing....I think the length of a plug and weight position are as big a factor as the lip. On a long plug, a narrow lip may try to create wobble, but the water resistance against the sides prevents it and the plug rolls instead....particularly if it is weighted in the middle as opposed to the chin (since the force to move that weight side to side is more the further from the lip it is placed).

After that I get confused.

I agree with that 100%...thats not what I'm saying. adding weight will definitely have an effect on the way a plug swims. But we are talking basic characteristics of the lip only. How does its differences make the plug act.

Now take that same prey swimmer w/ the 00 weight and put a different lip on it. It will swim different now...Why? The lip is obviously changing the way the water is being "Pushed" as the plug is retrieved.

Does a thinner profile lip pust the water over the top of the plug where a larger profile lip tends to push the water to the side? or More water over the top.

Does a longer lip tend to push more water over the top as compared to a shorter lip?

What effect can you expect when you pick a certain lip?

This is all food for thought.....



Example: I studied/tested and fished several "Surfsters" when I was designing my "Prey" swimmer. All the models I tried rolled 180 degrees and were unweighted......and I hated them! I was looking for less roll and more wiggle. I simply dropped a shot of "00" in the belly to give it more keel effect along with the 3/0 hooks and achieved the desired action. Just that subtle change with the same lip radically changed the action of the "surfster" style "Prey". I believe weighting will have more to do with the action of a particular plug than will the lip. My .02 cents.....in this economy might not be worth that much but there it is.;)

But the lip is the same on both plugs......the only difference being the weight. If I had no weight it would roll 180 degrees as you say the water is riding in the cup of the surfster lip causing it to "roll"......but the wdded keel weight subdues the action giving more wiggle and less roll. I guess all I am saying is that there is no "inherent" action in any lip as the action of that lip will be predicated on the plugs design! Ask any 5 builders Sandman's question about any one lip design and you will get 5 different answers is all I am saying. Good discussion though.....I like it! Always love to hear what George's thoughts are!:kewl:

My brain hurts, glad I'm playing with pencils now.

Getting them to swim the way you want in slow current on a dead slow retrieve was my goal when I first started messing with Danny plugs. But then how many of the places you fish have no current? My plugs were going way too fast in current and not fishing the way I wanted, so then I started messing around with different shapes, ways to slow them down, etc.

I always thought the depth a plug would go was controlled by the combination of the bouyancy of the wood, the angle or plane of the lip and the speed of the current you are fishing.

The more horizontal the plane of the lip the deeper it can dig. I make some slim dannies with a near horizontal lip that swim beautifully up on top in calm water, but in one spot I fish them they actually will go down and bounce the bottom.

George, I think that is a start and what I had in mind. But I had picked up a sample pack of a-lot-of-lips, and, as I look at them beyond aesthetics, it is hard to predict how they will work out.

At lunch today I tossed a few plugs with different lips in the truck and ran down to the dock and tossed them in. The plugs were the same , except for the lip.

I had a lefty, a danny and a pike lip. The danny made it sprial, the lefty swam erratically at random times, and the pike was the best but still now exactly what I wanted. As an engineer I find the whole trial and error approach very crude way of doing things, and while it may find a satisfactory solution, I think it will almost aways be sub-optimal. There has got to be a way to better define the cause and effect of each element of the lip. But this would take a lot of work. So I will have to rely on experience and trial and error.

We need a PhD student with some time on his hands...that is what we need.

Our coastline is pretty shallow fishing ..Coinky dink 2 diving lips Conrad and Atom Jr. you have to make your self ? Funny this subject came up ,I wanted to experiment this year with oversize lips on plugs . Maybe up one size than you'd normally use . I know this plug would be a disaster in any sort of current or heavy retrieve . My goal was action at a crawl or almost action standing still ,, just natural currents .. I'm know Numby has already persued this ..

I think numbskull summed it up pretty well.

.... I simply dropped a shot of "00" in the belly to give it more keel effect along with the 3/0 hooks and achieved the desired action. ... I believe weighting will have more to do with the action of a particular plug than will the lip. ...

In your example, you are adding other factors besides the lip. I believe the lip does play a big role in the action of the plug. As an example, I do up a medium sized surfster. It will also swim well with a pikie lip in it (hybrid surfster). Same wood, size/shape, hook configurations, etc. Everthing the same except the lip. I have two plugs with very different actions.

In general, wider lip gives more wobble/roll, narrower lip a tighter wiggle less roll. Yes, you can mess with other factors and get the desired results, like Larry's example. However, I know when I am designing a new plug, after I've gotten the shape down the first thing I consider is what lip to use to get the action I am after. If I am after a wide wobble, I grab a pikie lip first. If I want a tighter wiggle, I go for the danny lip. Lefty lip is somewhere in between. Those at least give me starting points. After that its weight location/amount and hook configuration.

Jigman

I keep it simple . May be a little crude, but it worked great for me this winter.

One thing I learned,was to not drill the belly whole if any. I brought a goodie bag of lips, electrical tape, and various size belly weights to the waters edge and froze my azz of testing everything in different combos.

Question on lip hole. If a plug has a mid hole and you bend the wire tie loop up in the locale of a top slot hole would you obtain the same action as if it was a top slot lip??