What is taking them so long to count votes ? this is the year 2000 . Can't technology speed things up . I think this gives them more time to cheat.

Yeah! This is the year 2000...Personally I think it is all a scam to turn us into zombies again....remember O.J.???

And the scary thing is that even after the re-count is completed this afternoon, there are still several thousand absentee votes incoming form armed forces personel and dependants from overseas... We might find out next week...

I heard that the Electoral college votes on Dec. 8th . Will we have to wait till then . I'm so confused.

We are now a " Banana republic". This is third world country BS.

What do you expect from a Mickey Mouse state like Florida??

J Powers - anything at the ditch these days?? On the flip side, alot of people have been protesting the need for the Electoral College. I've heard some interesting arguments in support, such as how the amount of votes allocated per state actually reflect the amount of people in the state, kids and all. It was purty interesting... Anyway - the whole thing does make us look third world...

Schoolie+Monster - you rat bastage... call me about fishing this weekend

I will be extremely dissapointed if the eventual loser, whether it is Gore or Bush, contests the final outcome for any reason. If people in Florida are too stupid to interpret the ballot, that is not the fault of either party. 19,000 ballots (in Florida) could not be counted because people picked two candidates, that's ridiculous. I don't buy the story of the ballot being too confusing in one of the counties down there...If you didn't understand it, wouldn't you ask the ballot takers too make sure you are voting for the candidate you intended?

I think that Bush will win Florida. I also think that the democrats are going to make a stink about it, turning our whole voting process into a joke and make the US look like a third world country. If that is the case, the democrats are basically saying there own people are too stupid to vote!!!

Actually, most of the people who filled out their forms wrong didn't realize it until after they had voted. Gore was listed second on the left hand side of the sheet, so they punched the second hole. I can understand their anger and disappointment. If Gore should have recieved a good percentage of that 19,000 votes, then Bush didn't win. Gore did. I definately think they should allow the people of Palm Beach county revote. What's the matter, think Bush will lose?

If you cant figure out how to properly fill out a ballot, do you think you can make an educated decision on who should lead our country? Every election has erroneous ballots that are thrown out. There were 15,000 in 1996. Am I afraid if Bush loses? You're damn right I am. The last 8 years in combination with the Democratic response to this election proves how much the Democrats honor our nation, its laws and its values. The overseas ballots have yet to be counted. I think it will be pleasantly ironic if the US military vote is responsible for nailing the lid on the coffin of the Clinton/Gore disease.

I'm sure you're refering to the last eight prosperous years, as opposed to the twelve years of recession during the republican regime. Some people have short memories.

P.S. The right to vote isn't earned by your IQ score, it is earned by being an American citizen. I'm sure it's incomprehensible to a lot of people in this great nation that some elderly AMERICANS are a little slow at comprehending the computer age, but I think they have probably earned the right to vote for the person that they want in office anyway.

The last 8 years of prosperity are not due to Clinton and Gore. You forget we have had a Republican House and Senate, who are the ones responsible for legislation. Furthermore, it takes more than 8 years to enact change.
Do you think its prosperous that our military is a shell of what it should be? Do you think its prosperous that you pay more taxes now than ever in our nations history? Do you think it is prosperous that the president sends troops into harms way to divert attention away from his own crimes? Clinton is hardly responsible for our prosperity.
Even if he was responsible, how can you discount the disgrace he has brought to our highest office and to our nation? He was impeached. Is that all insignificant so long as he did a "good" job?
Republicans are often viewed as selfish by the left wing. I can think of nothing more selfish than to compromise our nation's values, laws and integrity because of a healthy pocket book by ignoring the crimes Clinton has committed in office. It was a democrat that once said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". It seems that has all changed now. It seems the popular statement now is, "let the government do everything for you because you are too stupid to do it for yourself"
Finally, the Palm Beach ballot issue has nothing to do with the computer age. Those people do have the right to vote, and they excercised their right. They absolutely do not have the right to vote twice. You cant put smoke back in a cigarette.
Clinton and Gore are one in the same. They deserve credit for only one thing, and that is the art of manipulation and persuasion. They have a lot of people fooled.
Annoy a Democrat: Work hard and be happy

The last 8 years of prosperity are because of several reasons, some Democrat, some Republican but are much more as a result of timing and hard work by the American people. Not because of the Republican senate (just imagine if all parties decided to work together to get things done more often than they bash each other for sport). If Bush had been re-elected instead of Clinton, we probably would have had similar growth as the technoligical and information revolutions underway at the time were not handed down on a silver platter by ANY political party. Al Gore did not invent the Internet, people did. George W. Bush did not invent the Internet nor did Reagan. Those forces were underway LONG before.

As far as the draw down of American forces? The first drastic cuts were beginning before the Persian Gulf War and became far greater just afterword. Remeber Graham/Rudman? Before Clinton stepped into office, #^&#^&#^&#^& Chenney, under G.H.W. Bush's adminstration, was one of the guys directly involved in the draw down of the armed forces. The evisceration was well underway and did continue for a while under the Clinton administration. The thing that pi$$es me off more than anything about the military is that both Dems and Reps spend more time bashing each other's party for the downfall of the American military and far less than enough time to fix it. Reminds me of recess at elementary school. You want to know one good reason why the armed forces are in such lousy shape? Because you have a large percentage of early grade enlisted men and women, the backbone of the nation's military, getting out because otherwise they have to survive on Food Stamps! The morale is also low because the guys and girls in green and blue are not getting enough support to equip and train to fulfill their primary mission.

Wendy. The recession of the Bush years wasn't long and their was, for some people, a great growth period during the Reagan years. The nasty recession, I'm told (too young to remember) was previous to that in the ' 70s. There was alot of culpability from BOTH parties to that and Vietnam and the oil thing didn't help either. My mother raising four kids by herself with some help from her parents and from state programs typically championed by the Dems (good 'ole project housing living) did not get to see the economic miracle of the eighties. The miracle did not dip that low on the American family radar scope. Not that we didn't try to better ourselves, which we did.

Oh yeh, Clinton isn't the only person that the wheels of impeachment have been warmed up upon :o .

Clinton was pretty much a louse. Slippery as the eels we cast. Yes, he did some good things and tried to do others. I do not think that Al Gore is anywhere as bad as Clinton was ethically and I don't think he would be a bad president. Bush may have a little more character (not that much though) but he also seems to be more clueless and did not impress me with his knowledge of the issues at all, foreign or domestic.

Bucannan? Yeh, right.
Nader - see above.

Did you see that they had a Socialist party running??? Can you believe that crap?

This country, which I believe in my heart, IS the greatest country on the face of this earth. I was fortunate to see a little of Eastern Europe during the ' 80s and two things that have had a tremendous impact on me personally was the The Berlin Wall and the Dachau Concentration Camps. The people and nations that can cause atrocities like that are still out there and others can easily emerge again. America and Americans have a duty to be involved in the world and provividing the best leadership to lead the best country in the world is a very important start. The thing that is sickening to me is that we do not get the cream of the crop to lead us. We get guys like Bush and Gore, neither bad people, but certainly not the best this country has to offer, to lead our country and to a lesser degree to help lead the world.

One guy I'd like to see keeps saying he will not run. He has a good balance for foreign relations, is very interested in helping all scales of the American people with a focus on the middle and lower classes. Oh yeh, and he knows a little about the military :P... To bad he considers himself a Republican. Too many Dems would probably not vote for him just because of that. Of course, if he was a labeled a Democrat - many Republicans wouln't give him the time of day either.

As far as the Palm Beach elections and ballots go? I can appreciate how people would have erred on that. Not everyone is as adept at decifering those. Remember, some of those blue hairs have trouble with the bingo cards too... If it goes to court, then American Judicial system will get a crack at it.

'Guess I was venting a little, hehehehe...

The Florida Ballot:

[img=http://striped-bass.com/Images/Floridaba.jpg]

I think this election is tragic for this country as a whole, I have watched this senerio unfold for weeks and it is sad. What has this country become, We are the top dogs and as of this election we look weak and pathetic. The final second count has been done and Bush still is leading by 331 votes, but it amazes me that the outstanding absentie ballots have not even been counted yet and this is turning into a pathetic situation. I do not feel that either candidate should concede at this piont, but I also feel that the second count has been done, there is no need for any more recounting, they should all be waiting for the final ballots to decide this election. This has gotten totally out of control, now Gore wants hand counts of the votes and possibly also more counts in other area's. This is rediculous, I understand Voters being upset about the ballot, but it was in the papers before the election, a sample was sent to everyone BEFORE the election. So what is the problem, I understand that some elderly individuals may have misunderstood, but why did they not ask for help? Some elderly people probably wouldn't because it makes them feel inferior, and that is understandable, but come on. Do you think that if AL Gore would have won this election that any one of those people would have complained that they didn't think they filled out the ballot correctly, NO!!!!!! they would not have. I think that they need to count all the absenty votes and who ever wins wins and stop this pathetic seen, now they are talking about law suits. I think Al Gore should start acting like a man and take it the way it is, if he wins with the absenty ballots then he wins if he doesn't then he looses, what is so hard to figure out. Revoting would be the worst thing they could ever do, this only leads to more problems and people will only vote now to change the outcome not on how they really felt voting in the 1st place now that the rest of the countries votes are completed. I am sorry but just venting, I think that they should all take a step back and look at how this is affecting all Americans, not how it affects them personally. I think Al Gore is the biggest baby I have ever seen running for president, wine, wine, wine. And this is who we want running this country? What do you think he is going to do when things don't go his way in the White House? Go crying to his attorneys that the Republicans are picking on him, SPARE ME. I am tired of this back and forth bullshi# between democrats and republicans, I don't think even half of them work to solve problems
for the people of this country and is sickens me.

There now, feel better?


Freakin' embarassing is what it is.

Fisherwoman I agree.

John, nice sketch!

Thanks Slipknot, I just couldn't take it any more!!!!!

I suppose I'll throw my spin into the forum here.

This whole issue is going to be analyzed to death and the only people who will gain anything will be the media circus and a bunch of high priced attorneys.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of folks cannot see past their own political views and try and determine what's best for the country, not what's best for their party.

One thing I do know is that if roles were reversed, the outcome would be the same. Republicans would be whining for justice and the Democrats would be saying, "oh no, results are final!"

That is the truth and anyone who argues that point is full of it and not being particularly honest with themselves.

In my opinion, the country needs a quick and decisive resolution to the issue. I think that once the votes are tallied, including all the absentee ballots, both sides must accept that outcome and agree to work together to fix the process and prevent future problems. Yes, these things have gone on in the past, but that argument is irrelevant. First off, because the fact that it happened before doesn't make it "OK"... Second, a few thousand votes would not have swung any of the elections in the past 20 years or so.

Certainly in my heart, I want the guy who should have won in office... but at what cost to the nation? Both Bush and Gore would do a decent job. They are both fine, experienced guys. Obviously, both have their fair share of support from the people.

A court battle would only further divide the nation down party lines. And nothing will get done if animosity between the two parties intensifies. The house and senate are virtually even and if this thing escalates, it will assure that whoever gets in office will face a very difficult task.

As for the ballot in question... those people aren't necessarily stupid. For those who think so, don't you have a parent or grandparent who may have trouble with that? Fortunately, I have known all of my grandparents and some of my great-grandparents as an adult. I have seen them struggle with things that seem simple to me... that doesn't make them stupid Damon M... and they do deserve to vote. Step out of your obviously Republican shoes and act like a human being. Your side isn't good, while the other is evil. The Republican party isn't responsible for all that is right in this country. Both sides contribute to what is right and what is wrong in the good ol' USA.

Do I think their should be a new vote? No. The results would be tainted. Similar to trying to find jury for a well publicized trial. Public opinions have been formed, the vote may be swayed.

We have to learn from this mess and move ahead. I know that sounds naive and idealistic, but that's what I believe needs to be done.

What we don't need is suspicion of "the enemy" and to assign blame to that other "party." We all have to live together... of course, we could always move to the bahamas and fish the flats for bonefish... anyone catch that on OLN last night? Sure, that Andy Mill guy is a geek, but that was cool stuff, eh?

Ya schooliemonster, that show is fun to watch. Makes me want to be there fishing along side them. How about the tarpon he catches, 120 lbs. on plugs and flies.What a life that geek has.

Here, here Schoolie Monster. There seems to be SO much battling between political parties that an unbiased view might no longer be possible in this country. Nobody will truly win this election... Kinda sad actually.

John

I thought the Democrats were the socialist party? They might as well be. Bush isnt an expert, but he is surrounding himself with experts, which is a great management and leadership technique.
JohnR, in response to your post I will say this: You cannot separate Gore from Clinton. He and Clinton had no respect for the rule of law and the Constitution. This fact is clearly illustrated by the impeachment and by the Gore campaign's response to this election.
Atleast Nixon had the decency to resign.
Finally, before anyone has a chance to say something about it, I realize this is a fishing forum and I'll limit my political commentary to the above.

The idea of this man being the leader of my country frightens me-
"The vast majority of our imports come from outside the country."
....George W. Bush, Jr.

"If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."
....George W. Bush, Jr.

"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a
mother and child." ....Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Welcome to Mrs. Bush, and my fellow astronauts."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Mars is essentially in the same orbit...Mars is somewhat the same
distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures
where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, that
means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 8/11/94

"The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. I mean in
this century's history. But we all lived in this century. I didn't live in
this century." ....Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 9/15/95

"I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and
democracy - but that could change."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 5/22/98

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any Governor, and that
one word is 'to be prepared'."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 12/6/93

"Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 11/30/96

"I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in the
future." ....Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"The future will be better tomorrow."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"We're going to have the best educated American people in the world."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 9/21/97

"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and
have a tremendous impact on history."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr. to Sam Donaldson, 8/17/93

"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have a firm
commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Public speaking is very easy."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr. to reporters in 10/9

"I am not part of the problem. I am a Republican"
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr

"When I have been asked who caused the riots and the killing in LA, my
answer has been direct & simple: Who is to blame for the riots? The
rioters are to blame. Who is to blame for the killings? The killers are to
blame.
....George W. Bush, Jr.

"Illegitimacy is something we should talk about in terms of not
having it."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 5/20/96

"We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 9/22/97

"For NASA, space is still a high priority."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 9/5/93

"Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 9/18/95

"The American people would not want to know of any misquotes that George
Bush may or may not make." ....Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"We're all capable of mistakes, but I do not care to enlighten you on
the mistakes we may or may not have made."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities
in our air and water that are doing it."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"[It's] time for the human race to enter the solar system."
....Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

WOW, that's incredible Wendy. Good thing Bush is surrounding himself with experts. I guess he is a product of Texas public Education , or has he been on the pipe too long.

And to think I voted for him.

Wow - Wendy!!! Guess we know where your bread is buttered!!! :P

Counterpoint:

"I invented the Internet"
'Ole fibber Al himself.

I wonder what will really happen. All of the legal and party ramblings aside. When the outcome is this close, a winner should not be declared until all of the votes cast are in. Our people overseas need to haver their votes counted as well. Too many of the newsies are just disregarding them.

Damon, no problem on the political commentary. These are very important topics and while we may agree sometimes and disagree at other times, it is important that we can discuss it. Personally, I don't have much respect for either Gore or Bush and nothing in the last few days has improved my feelings of either....

Later,

John

John, I think a lot of Democrats would vote for that last guy you have in mind--unfortunately for the country, he doesn't want to subject his family to what would happen to them if he ran. Remember the South Carolina primary, and what McCain had to listen to from some of the loonies on the right fringe of the GOP, about his daughter?

Two things are clear to me--there's almost an equal number of Dems and Reps, elections are decided by those in the center. And the center in this election was presented with a choice between two lukewarm candidates, a "lesser of two evils" situation. Should be no surprise that they split it down the middle. The other thing that's clear is that it would have been a landslide if the GOP ran their best candidate--McCain--instead of the choice of the party insiders, Bush. Maybe they feel they owed Daddy one for letting him down in 1972, but if McCain was there instead of him, we're not having this discussion right now.

The loser of these two guys is toast for the future. They've both damaged their stature by behaving badly in the waiting game.

MikeP, I really agree. There are a few issues that I have with the Republican party but I hoped the McCain would have prevailed over Bush. Perhaps a case of the party faithful voting the party line (Bush) versus the voting the candidate. I think John McCain is far better qualified to lead this country then Bush or Gore for that matter... As far as standup guys, my first (likely) choice will not run, as you said, for what it subject his family to. I say "likely" because I would like to see a more in-depth view on certain issues but I think he has the necessary qualities to lead this country. Something we really need...

'Later

BTW - Is the bite still warm down your way??

Yeah, I posted a little dig in the thread started by Jeff H. Still plenty of fish in the 20 pound range around, and all of the 30-36 inchers you want. Just a situation of finding the bait--lots of herring and hickory shad back in the bays and inlets.

Slipknot- are you kidding me?

Could you imagine being able to spend your work days in the Keys or the Bahamas. What a life he leads, indeed... amazing.

That's how I imagine my life if I won the lottery or something and was filthy rich.

I fished Florida for the first time in September and had a blast. I fished the Indian River which is all flats and holds redfish, sea trout, jack crevalle, snook, and tarpon. I caught a bunch of nice size jacks and sea trout and blew a couple shots at reds. We also worked a school of rolling tarpon for an hour but they wouldn't take anything... was still cool though.

And they fish all year! I'd never get anything done around the house.

Take it easy.

ps... Monomoy... there's an idea for a Striped-bass.com get together. I've never fished it and really want to check it out.

Yes SM, I can't wait to go to Flori duhh? to fish but maybe the Bahamas instead after seeing those bonefish. That soundslike a great idea for Monomoy.

Thumbs up to Monomoy!!! Now do state regulations REQUIRE a fly-rod or would you just get shot without one?

Hey John,

I have this plan for Monomoy! How about one of those 10-12 foot inflatables? We could crash Monomoy like a group of Navy Seals. I think they are only a couple of grand.

My uncle has an 10' achilles, maybe I could get him to let me keep it up here... I know he never uses it.

What do ya think?

You got it!!! All legal ramifications aside (I don't think they want you there at night) I'm game...

Did you ever read that two part story a couple years ago in ONTHEWATER ? It talked about three guys going out in a little putt-putt (like yours :P ) and fishin' Monomoy all night? Apparently the fishing is not quite what it was before both the decline of the fishery and that little storm that blew out half of Chatham... Anyway - the story talks about big fishi blitzes that we only dream about... Damn, I wish I had been there. Now I'll be in a foul mood for the rest of the day...

So when are you, the wife, and your dear little child going to come over to my wife?

I'm not sure I understand the question... could you clarify what you mean? :)

The last couple weeks and next couple of weeks have been and will be nuts. We're doing all the mudding, taping, and sanding in the addition, and will be putting down the linoleum(sp?) floors, as well as tiling the bathroom. We're really pushing to get done ASAP. Plus, Karen is going to do a bit of work for the DMR on weekends for a couple of months. I remember thinking at this time last year that things would be alot calmer by now, but there always seems to be something going on.

But certainly after your bundle of joy arrives we'll visit. I'm sure I'll see ya at the hospital upon delivery of the goods. Soon John, you gonna be a papa really soon!

Unreal, isn't it?

We'll talk to ya soon.