So now that GM is going to make your payments if you lose your job after buying a new car, it's nice to see tax payers will be funding car payments. :fury:

Amazing...




...that you spend so much time thinking about some of this. If the goal is to restructure GM and keep a domestic auto industy going, little matters like this, and this is a little matter, can't distract you from the strategic objective.

-spence

Ernie Bartack says
"Come on down to the automile"
"Rt 1 Norwood, COME ON DOWN

So FORD (never took bailout money) comes up with an idea:

"DEARBORN, Mich., March 31, 2009 – Ford Motor Company is introducing the most comprehensive program available to boost consumers’ buying confidence and begin rebuilding the American economy with the new Ford Advantage Plan.
The plan gives customers another reason to “Drive One” with payment protection of up to 12 months on any new Ford, Lincoln or Mercury vehicle, 0 percent financing on select vehicles and added local charity support."

GM takes a watered down version of it 9 months of payment protection, and everyone talks about GM.

I am just glad that FORD stayed away from the government money, and I for one will make my next new car a FORD to support American business not Government Motors (GM). As for Chrysler they will probably disappear.

Spence, I really am amazed at your lack of any critical thnking unless it is directed at peoples posts. Are you able to look at all into the future? I heard yesterday that Obama and Cos plan is to eliminate some of GMs most profitable vehicles, what are they? BIG TRUCKS!! So now they'll force GM to make more cars people dont want, and how will they ensure that they are profitable? THEY WILL RAISE THE GAS TAX TO MAKE PEOPLE BUY SMALLER CARS!!!
Do you ever stop and think what this all means? Stop and read the constitution!

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The Obama administration is seeking to ease General Motors Corp into a "controlled" bankruptcy by persuading some creditors to agree to a plan that would divide the company into two pieces, the New York Times reported on Wednesday.
Citing people briefed on the matter, the Times said the plan is to push GM into a structured bankruptcy "somewhere between a prepackaged bankruptcy and court chaos," using taxpayer financing for leverage.
The administration is drawing in part from its experience with troubled banks, seeking to create a new, healthier GM, but leaving behind its liabilities and less valuable assets, possibly for liquidation, the Times said on its website.
Under the plan, GM would file for prearranged bankruptcy, the report said, and would then use a sale authorized under Section 363 of the U.S. bankruptcy code to sell off desirable assets to a new company financed by the government.
These more valuable assets might include Cadillac and Chevrolet, as well as assets the company needs to run its business, the Times said.
Plans are still under discussion and details are subject to change, the report said.
GM officials warned on Tuesday there was a rising chance it could file for bankruptcy by June."

Maybe time to buy stock in FORD.......

Amazing...




...that you spend so much time thinking about some of this. If the goal is to restructure GM and keep a domestic auto industy going, little matters like this, and this is a little matter, can't distract you from the strategic objective.

-spence

Spence, do you really believe that GM needs to be kept going? I wonder if it might be better to let them fail. They got themselves in this mess and if they can't get out of it, let them fail. Obama, Inc. isn't going to step in and save the little local businesses that are suffering because of the economy.

Spence, do you really believe that GM needs to be kept going? I wonder if it might be better to let them fail. They got themselves in this mess and if they can't get out of it, let them fail. Obama, Inc. isn't going to step in and save the little local businesses that are suffering because of the economy.

Agreed. Let. Them. Fail.

This isn't truly a democratic society. It is a Capitalistic society. The country was founded with capitalistic goals in mind - to hunt, harvest and scavenge products to trade with Europe. As competition came in, they were forced to adjust. Early colonists didn't supply to current fads. Information traveled to slowly to make an approach like that possible. They provided quality products that people wanted to buy.

GM, on the other hand, did the exact opposite. They created crappy vehicles that sometimes played into current fads, as opposed to anticipating the consumer's needs and supplying quality products that created their own demand.

Let. Them. Fail.

Also, I'm tired of people saying the only reason Toyota was able to do so well is because it isn't Union. What about Ford? Ford is union and they have been surviving without any government handouts.

Ford's CEO too proactive approaches to prevent a situation like this. He sold off losing portions of the company like Jaguar and utilized that money to create products the consumer wants.

Another example of Ford doing it right in comparison to GM doing it wrong - Ford is the first domestic car company to bring to market a viable hybrid option for the consumer. Ford anticipated that more consumers would want a hybrid option. On average, people are commuting further to work than they were 20 years ago and Ford recognized the demand.

As I've been saying for months, a poor business plan is why companies like GM are in the toilet. They've been far below the curve for years and should have been sold off after they thought the Aztek was a good vehicle to bring to market.

if they fail, not just enter Chapter 11, cease operations all together, I think there would be a tremendous impact across the global economy.

They've been far below the curve for years and should have been sold off after they thought the Aztek was a good vehicle to bring to market.

The Pontiac Aztek may not have been a great vehicle, but it came with the worlds best anti-theft sytem.












It's looks.

if they fail, not just enter Chapter 11, cease operations all together, I think there would be a tremendous impact across the global economy.

If they are forced to make electric crap and stop making the American pick up truck (their #1 money maker since the 30s) they will fail.

Of course Obama will do his part and subsidize them and give tax credits to people to buy the "crap".
And if that doesn't work, we will run the fuel prices up, by restricting oil production further, making it too expensive to drive regular cars.
(last week congress passed a bill adding 200,000 acres to the off limits area for oil exploration and use)

Not sure what to do, invest in FORD or buy a crap ton of double A batteries for my future golf cart.....

One sure bet, buy property in Dubai...

if they fail, not just enter Chapter 11, cease operations all together, I think there would be a tremendous impact across the global economy.

How? We don't export a massive number of GM vehicles and have to import most of the materials needed to build the vehicle. GM and Chrysler play no major roll in the global economy. They aren't a company like General Electric that employs 330,000 people worldwide with key roles in multiple industries from aerospace to lightbulbs.

I think there would be a tremendous impact on the local economies, in that whole towns have been developed where 90% of the town is employed at the factory.

However, I'm willing to sacrifice the financial security of the few for the benefits of the country as a whole. I would rather see the money that is being sent to GM go to the employees for re-education so they can develop a new set of skills. The company is on track to fail resulting in those people losing their jobs anyway, and we're only delaying the inevitable.

toyota succeeds because of the mastery of lean processing. Constant process improvement, measuring progress, correcting measures is ingrained in their culture.

If they are forced to make electric crap and stop making the American pick up truck (their #1 money maker since the 30s) they will fail.

Why exactly is it "electric crap"?

I will give GM one benefit of the doubt. They developed a Chevy hybrid pickup truck that put out the exact same torque and HP as their non-hybrid model. Only difference between the two was that the hybrid got almost double the gas mileage.

Then, back to my comment that the company has a terrible business plan, they didn't market the truck or provide any PR for it. There wasn't any demand because no one knew about it.

A friend of mine owns a landscaping company. Last year on one of his work trucks, he was paying over $1000/month in fuel costs - on one truck! Now, cut that number almost in half and he would have saved over $4000 in expenses last year for that truck.

toyota succeeds because of the mastery of lean processing. Constant process improvement, measuring progress, correcting measures is ingrained in their culture.

All these actions are representational of a solid company. Companies that do not keep track of detailed metrics do not deserve to exist. They are allowed to continue to operate based on pockets of ignorance in the consumer base.

GM should spend more time tracking metrics and making improvements than investing R&D in that POS Hummer, H2, H3 and I'm sure they have the H4 in the works. They grasp on to these short-lived fads and are unable to sell enough units to turn a decent ROI.

The Union's tried to get in to the Toyota plants. Toyota factory workers didn't want them in. Without Union dues, they actually make more then American auto workers.

All these actions are representational of a solid company. Companies that do not keep track of detailed metrics do not deserve to exist. They are allowed to continue to operate based on pockets of ignorance in the consumer base.

GM should spend more time tracking metrics and making improvements than investing R&D in that POS Hummer, H2, H3 and I'm sure they have the H4 in the works. They grasp on to these short-lived fads and are unable to sell enough units to turn a decent ROI.

Source: GoAuto.com.au

HUMMER will consolidate its upcoming H3 range in Australia from 2009 with a variety of new models that will include a compact SUV, diesel, ethanol and hybrid power, and a new full-sized H2.

Central to this will be engineering and design input from General Motors’ global outposts, including Holden, but perhaps Hummer’s most ambitious plan involves a vehicle that sits below the H3 – currently the company’s smallest offering.

Known as the H4 – although this may change by the time it appears around 2010 – it will give the Hummer brand a vital weapon in the United States against premium-priced compact SUVs such as the Nissan Murano.

Yay another vehicle that its origional inspiriation is similar in name only!

American automobile manufacturers are complete idiots.
They were in trouble BEFORE the market tanked.

Luxury: ruled by europe
Economy: ruled by japan and europe
Longevity: ruled by japan
Innovation: ruled by europe
Driveability: ruled by europe

All these actions are representational of a solid company. Companies that do not keep track of detailed metrics do not deserve to exist. They are allowed to continue to operate based on pockets of ignorance in the consumer base.

GM should spend more time tracking metrics and making improvements than investing R&D in that POS Hummer, H2, H3 and I'm sure they have the H4 in the works. They grasp on to these short-lived fads and are unable to sell enough units to turn a decent ROI.

yup

Also, think of this. Why would ANYONE qualified to make change and take big business risks join GM? What superstar would want the job?So that if they are successful and receive compensation to match their success they will be publicly flogged by the congress? The reaction to the AIG bonuses has put a serious bruise on the credibility of the government. Many qualified and intelligent people will not be signing up to work for any companies tied to the government.

yup

Also, think of this. Why would ANYONE qualified to make change and take big business risks join GM? What superstar would want the job?So that if they are successful and receive compensation to match their success they will be publicly flogged by the congress? The reaction to the AIG bonuses has put a serious bruise on the credibility of the government. Many qualified and intelligent people will not be signing up to work for any companies tied to the government.

I've got a retarded Uncle, that is looking for work....
He voted for Obama too.

That's 2 out of the 3 things they are looking for.

Now if I can only teach him to read a teleprompter (to hold press conferences and say its all his fault) he may have a future at GM.

Source: GoAuto.com.au

HUMMER will consolidate its upcoming H3 range in Australia from 2009 with a variety of new models that will include a compact SUV, diesel, ethanol and hybrid power, and a new full-sized H2.

Central to this will be engineering and design input from General Motors’ global outposts, including Holden, but perhaps Hummer’s most ambitious plan involves a vehicle that sits below the H3 – currently the company’s smallest offering.

Known as the H4 – although this may change by the time it appears around 2010 – it will give the Hummer brand a vital weapon in the United States against premium-priced compact SUVs such as the Nissan Murano.

When I made my post, I had no idea about this. I was just speculating. This is what happens when an entire sub-company is based around only one model.

I can't effing believe this... and we're giving these idiots even more money???

yup

Also, think of this. Why would ANYONE qualified to make change and take big business risks join GM? What superstar would want the job?So that if they are successful and receive compensation to match their success they will be publicly flogged by the congress? The reaction to the AIG bonuses has put a serious bruise on the credibility of the government. Many qualified and intelligent people will not be signing up to work for any companies tied to the government.

Good. They're going to fail anyway. Hopefully the government realizes this sooner than later before too much money is completely wasted. The last thing we need is a subsidized automaker in similar shoes as Amtrack - wasting money with no regard and not improving the product or efficiencies because the government will just give is more money anyway.

I've got a retarded Uncle, that is looking for work....
He voted for Obama too.

That's 2 out of the 3 things they are looking for.

Now if I can only teach him to read a teleprompter (to hold press conferences and say its all his fault) he may have a future at GM.

wow, that made me laugh out loud. Too funny

Good. They're going to fail anyway. Hopefully the government realizes this sooner than later before too much money is completely wasted. The last thing we need is a subsidized automaker in similar shoes as Amtrack - wasting money with no regard and not improving the product or efficiencies because the government will just give is more money anyway.

so Johnny, just to be clear, if GM fails, Obama does too. Its his gamble he has chosen to make - to support GM.
Sounds "Limbaugh-ish" of you to want Obama to fail.

toyota succeeds because of the mastery of lean processing. Constant process improvement, measuring progress, correcting measures is ingrained in their culture.

Also,
Toyota suceeds because they make a GREAT product !!!
GM has been making crap for decades !
Chrysler ever worse crap !
Ford of the big 3 has made the best quality of the 3, but would also be hurting if not for all the trucks and Crown Vics (police, taxis, govt cars.....) sold !

When I made my post, I had no idea about this. I was just speculating. This is what happens when an entire sub-company is based around only one model.

I can't effing believe this... and we're giving these idiots even more money???

I thought GM didn't have any presence outside of the US?

Let them fail, go under, then restructure.

If Sweden,one of the most socialist countries in Europe,
won't bail out Saab, what makes us think a GM bailout
will work?

The Pontiac Aztek may not have been a great vehicle, but it came with the worlds best anti-theft sytem.


ugly car = excellent anti-theft...


Who says Toyota Auto workers don't want to unionize?

Toyota Powers Ahead at Kentucky Plant

by Frank Langfitt

Listen Now add to playlist

Frank Langfitt, NPR.
Leonard Habermehl is a skilled repairman who started at Toyota in 1990. He once thought unions weren't necessary. Now he'd like to see one at his Kentucky plant.


GM vs. Toyota

Top-seller in U.S. (2004)
GM: Chevrolet Silverado 680,768
Toyota: Toyota Camry 426,990

U.S. Sales (2004)
GM: 4,655,459
Toyota: 2,060,049

U.S. Market Share*
GM: 26.8%
Toyota: 13%

*Market share through the first nine months of 2005

More GM vs. Toyota comparisons

More Coverage

Dec. 19, 2005
Shrinking GM Means Pain for Factory Families

All Things Considered, December 20, 2005 · While General Motors and Ford are preparing to slash jobs and close plants, foreign carmakers like Toyota continue to build new facilities in the South.

Targeting rural areas, companies from Honda to Hyundai have tapped an eager labor force in a region where it's easier to keep costs down.

Toyota -- now nipping at the heels of the world's largest auto company, GM -- built one of its first U.S. plants in Kentucky, where it started producing cars in 1988.

Renee Brown works assembling the Camry -- the nation's best-selling car. She puts in seat belts and cup holders at Toyota's plant in Kentucky horse country.

Brown grew up in Beattyville, a tiny, struggling town in the state's Appalachian coalfields. The town doesn't have many good jobs today.

Brown previously worked as an assistant manager at Dairy Queen, where she made $20,000 annually. Six years ago, she got a job at Toyota.

Now, Brown makes $70,000 a year -- more than twice the average manufacturing wage in the area.

The United Auto Workers have tried to crack the Toyota plant since before it opened. Last spring, they opened their own organizing office just down the road.

But Brown says that Toyota's wages are so close to the union's, she doesn't see the advantage.

That workers like Brown aren't interested in unions is no accident. Manufacturers like Toyota locate their plants in regions hungry for jobs with good salaries. It's the result of a strategy foreign car companies have used for years to avoid unionization.

Gary Chaison, who teaches industrial relations at Clark University in Masachussetts, says Toyota and its peers also try to treat workers well, take their opinions into account and give them a stake in the plant's success.

Despite the wages, some Toyota workers say they need a union. They complain the company drives them so hard that people get injured, and when they can't work anymore, Toyota pays them off to leave

Leonard Habermehl is a skilled repairman and makes up to $85,000 per year. When he came to Toyota in 1990, he didn't see why he needed a union. But after years of service in which he says he has seen people injured and forced out of their jobs, he now believes the plant should unionize.

The plant employs 7,000 people and is slated to build 340,000 Camry's this year. Next year, it will produce the new Camry hybrid, a point of pride among all employees.

Pete Gritton oversees human resources at the plant. He says attrition among workers is below 3 percent. He estimates about 15 workers leave because of injuries each year.

Gritton says the company tries to find them other jobs, but can't always make a match.

If organizing workers was tough before, Habermehl says it's even harder now with the UAW under seige. Ford and GM are looking to cut tens of thousands of jobs. Delphi, the world's largest auto parts maker, only recently backed off demands for union wage cuts of more than 50 percent.

Habermehl says future wages at Toyota depend on the UAW, whether plant employees realize it or not. When wages rise at the Big Three, they're also likely to rise at Toyota. And when they fall in Detroit's plants, Toyota could reduce them as well.

Habermehl isn't optimistic about unionizing Toyota. Once an activist, he doesn't spend as much time around the organizing office these days. He says the UAW is so distracted by the U.S. automakers, it probably won't be able to make a serious run at Toyota.

Also,
Toyota suceeds because they make a GREAT product !!!
GM has been making crap for decades !
Chrysler ever worse crap !
Ford of the big 3 has made the best quality of the 3, but would also be hurting if not for all the trucks and Crown Vics (police, taxis, govt cars.....) sold !

I agree completly...And pretty soon there will be no more crown vics for taxis at least in Mass..They are being faced out for hybrids

ugly car = excellent anti-theft...


Who says Toyota Auto workers don't want to unionize?

Toyota Powers Ahead at Kentucky Plant

by Frank Langfitt

Listen Now add to playlist

Frank Langfitt, NPR.
Leonard Habermehl is a skilled repairman who started at Toyota in 1990. He once thought unions weren't necessary. Now he'd like to see one at his Kentucky plant.


GM vs. Toyota

Top-seller in U.S. (2004)
GM: Chevrolet Silverado 680,768
Toyota: Toyota Camry 426,990

U.S. Sales (2004)
GM: 4,655,459
Toyota: 2,060,049

U.S. Market Share*
GM: 26.8%
Toyota: 13%

*Market share through the first nine months of 2005

More GM vs. Toyota comparisons

More Coverage

Dec. 19, 2005
Shrinking GM Means Pain for Factory Families

All Things Considered, December 20, 2005 · While General Motors and Ford are preparing to slash jobs and close plants, foreign carmakers like Toyota continue to build new facilities in the South.

Targeting rural areas, companies from Honda to Hyundai have tapped an eager labor force in a region where it's easier to keep costs down.

Toyota -- now nipping at the heels of the world's largest auto company, GM -- built one of its first U.S. plants in Kentucky, where it started producing cars in 1988.

Renee Brown works assembling the Camry -- the nation's best-selling car. She puts in seat belts and cup holders at Toyota's plant in Kentucky horse country.

Brown grew up in Beattyville, a tiny, struggling town in the state's Appalachian coalfields. The town doesn't have many good jobs today.

Brown previously worked as an assistant manager at Dairy Queen, where she made $20,000 annually. Six years ago, she got a job at Toyota.

Now, Brown makes $70,000 a year -- more than twice the average manufacturing wage in the area.

The United Auto Workers have tried to crack the Toyota plant since before it opened. Last spring, they opened their own organizing office just down the road.

But Brown says that Toyota's wages are so close to the union's, she doesn't see the advantage.

That workers like Brown aren't interested in unions is no accident. Manufacturers like Toyota locate their plants in regions hungry for jobs with good salaries. It's the result of a strategy foreign car companies have used for years to avoid unionization.

Gary Chaison, who teaches industrial relations at Clark University in Masachussetts, says Toyota and its peers also try to treat workers well, take their opinions into account and give them a stake in the plant's success.

Despite the wages, some Toyota workers say they need a union. They complain the company drives them so hard that people get injured, and when they can't work anymore, Toyota pays them off to leave

Leonard Habermehl is a skilled repairman and makes up to $85,000 per year. When he came to Toyota in 1990, he didn't see why he needed a union. But after years of service in which he says he has seen people injured and forced out of their jobs, he now believes the plant should unionize.

The plant employs 7,000 people and is slated to build 340,000 Camry's this year. Next year, it will produce the new Camry hybrid, a point of pride among all employees.

Pete Gritton oversees human resources at the plant. He says attrition among workers is below 3 percent. He estimates about 15 workers leave because of injuries each year.

Gritton says the company tries to find them other jobs, but can't always make a match.

If organizing workers was tough before, Habermehl says it's even harder now with the UAW under seige. Ford and GM are looking to cut tens of thousands of jobs. Delphi, the world's largest auto parts maker, only recently backed off demands for union wage cuts of more than 50 percent.

Habermehl says future wages at Toyota depend on the UAW, whether plant employees realize it or not. When wages rise at the Big Three, they're also likely to rise at Toyota. And when they fall in Detroit's plants, Toyota could reduce them as well.

Habermehl isn't optimistic about unionizing Toyota. Once an activist, he doesn't spend as much time around the organizing office these days. He says the UAW is so distracted by the U.S. automakers, it probably won't be able to make a serious run at Toyota.


What's amazing is Toyota moves into a rural area and provides thousands of high paying jobs and some people that get those jobs still complain. They should quit and I'm sure someone else will fill there spot.

if they fail, not just enter Chapter 11, cease operations all together, I think there would be a tremendous impact across the global economy.

That is a big factor for sure, additionally think of the billions in taxpayer aid already given that would be lost.

The former leadership believed bankruptcy was off the table, and they're now gone or going. It would seem that a prudent path is to help the company into Chapter 11 so the massive debt and liability issues can be restructured. Without bankruptcy they don't have enough leverage with the unions.

There seems to be a lot of selective conservatism going on around here. Let them fail might sound like a free market solution, but we don't really have a free market now do we?

-spence

Spence, I really am amazed at your lack of any critical thnking unless it is directed at peoples posts. Are you able to look at all into the future? I heard yesterday that Obama and Cos plan is to eliminate some of GMs most profitable vehicles, what are they? BIG TRUCKS!! So now they'll force GM to make more cars people dont want, and how will they ensure that they are profitable? THEY WILL RAISE THE GAS TAX TO MAKE PEOPLE BUY SMALLER CARS!!!
Do you ever stop and think what this all means? Stop and read the constitution!

Well said!!!

I heard yesterday that Obama and Cos plan is to eliminate some of GMs most profitable vehicles, what are they? BIG TRUCKS!! So now they'll force GM to make more cars people dont want, and how will they ensure that they are profitable?

Funny, neither GM nor Ford can move a truck right now to save their lives...

Guess they're not so profitable anymore.

Funny, neither GM nor Ford can move a truck right now to save their lives...

Guess they're not so profitable anymore.

And you "facts" come from?

I found this on Routers and on CNN. To me it looks like the #1 and #2 spots are still TRUCKS. Yes sales accross the board have fallen almost 50%, but even so they still outselling the Camry.

March 3 (Reuters) - The following are the 20 top-selling vehicles in the United States through February 2009 as reported by automakers.

Following is a list of the top-20 selling vehicles, ranked by total units.
RANK VEHICLE 2009 2008 '08 RANK % Chng
1 Ford F-Series P/U 48,851 93,673 1 -47.8
2 Chevy Silverado-C/K P/U 43,775 80,218 2 -45.4
3 Toyota Camry 41,416 66,515 3 -37.7
4 Toyota Corolla 37,341 41,938 4 -11.0
5 Honda Accord 32,557 51,588 6 -36.9
6 Nissan Altima 30,137 44,998 9 -33.0
7 Honda Civic 29,885 44,792 8 -33.3
8 Dodge Ram P/U 27,291 42,544 5 -35.9
9 Honda CR-V 25,513 31,710 11 -19.5
10 Chevrolet Malibu 20,828 27,001 26 -22.9
11 Ford Escape 18,450 25,383 17 -27.3
12 Ford Focus 17,673 27,902 15 -36.7
13 Toyota RAV4 16,432 21,274 18 -22.8
14 Ford Fusion 15,755 24,163 20 -34.8
15 Jeep Wrangler 15,450 13,225 +16.8
16 Toyota Prius 15,353 22,272 16 -31.1
17 Chevrolet Impala 14,867 42,740 7 -65.2
18 GMC Sierra P/U 14,420 28,288 12 -49.0
19 Mazda 3 13,996 14,472 -3.3
20 Chevrolet Cobalt 13,508 34,268 14 -60.6

Spence, I really am amazed at your lack of any critical thnking unless it is directed at peoples posts. Are you able to look at all into the future? I heard yesterday that Obama and Cos plan is to eliminate some of GMs most profitable vehicles, what are they? BIG TRUCKS!! So now they'll force GM to make more cars people dont want, and how will they ensure that they are profitable? THEY WILL RAISE THE GAS TAX TO MAKE PEOPLE BUY SMALLER CARS!!!
Do you ever stop and think what this all means? Stop and read the constitution!
Yes Jimmy, I don't think critically at all :smokin:

Perhaps you should try to evaluate an issue from more than your narrow perspective before letting the spittle fly onto your keyboard.

SUV's and trucks may have been profitable in the past but sales of new units have dropped dramatically in the past few years.

You work in fianance so I'm sure you can comprehend this, right?

Higher profit margins are relative to volume. It doesn't make any sense for a company to restructure based on a business model that has proven to be unbalanced.

The Government is putting pressure on GM to adopt a restructing plan based on GM's failure to meet obligations it agreed to by taking Billions in loans last year.

This notion that the Government is dictating what kind of car you're going to be able to drive is simply absurd. You can still buy that SUV you've always dreamed about. It may cost you more to operate, but perhaps it should as well. Large cars and trucks have benefited from artifically low gas prices for decades due to Government actions, and as we've seen the balance is simply not sustainable.

-spence

I found this on Routers and on CNN. To me it looks like the #1 and #2 spots are still TRUCKS. Yes sales accross the board have fallen almost 50%, but even so they still outselling the Camry.
Sales of trucks were stronger recently because of lower gas prices as well as HUGE incentives placed on these vehicles. That being said when you look at the top 10 on the list 7 are small cars. Doing some quick math indicates that even with the stronger sales of trucks, they were still declining 10% faster in unit sales than small to mid size vehicles.

While the margins may usually be higher on the trucks, considering the incentives required to get the number up, one would really have to wonder if those vehicles aren't nearly as profitable as they were in the past.

-spence

And you "facts" come from?

I found this on Routers and on CNN. To me it looks like the #1 and #2 spots are still TRUCKS. Yes sales accross the board have fallen almost 50%, but even so they still outselling the Camry.


I don't care about rank, its the fact that a 50% fall in sales is pathetic.

And lets notice who the 2 BIGGEST LOSERS are.
Ford
Chevy

Least sales drop? Toyota.
Jeep is kind of a conundrum. They're effing terrible on gas yet people equate "small" with "economy". :rotf3:

What's amazing is Toyota moves into a rural area and provides thousands of high paying jobs and some people that get those jobs still complain. They should quit and I'm sure someone else will fill there spot.

You could say that about almost any high paying job.

look at Toyota's expansion into the truck market.

This notion that the Government is dictating what kind of car you're going to be able to drive is simply absurd. You can still buy that SUV you've always dreamed about. It may cost you more to operate, but perhaps it should as well. Large cars and trucks have benefited from artifically low gas prices for decades due to Government actions, and as we've seen the balance is simply not sustainable.

-spence

Yes, its absurd.
I guess I was having some wacky paranoid dream, thanks for waking me up. I dreamed that the government passed salary caps on major bank executives salaries, then I dreamed that congress proposed a 90% bonus tax, then its gets even MORE bizzare, I dreamed that the President of the United States guranteed warranties on Chrysler and GM cars and to top it all of he fires the president of GM. WHoa! That was wild. I can't even imagine in my wildest dreams Obama would further ensure GMs stability by manipulating gas prices or legistlation that would push people to buy GM. This is America after all.

I dreamed that the government passed salary caps on major bank executives salaries,
Only on banks taking TARP money.
then I dreamed that congress proposed a 90% bonus tax
The House can propose anything but this wasn't signed into law was it?
I dreamed that the President of the United States guranteed warranties on Chrysler and GM cars
A temporary program aimed to boost consumer confidence in an organization that the taxpayer has a large stake in.

and to top it all of he fires the president of GM.
Actually they asked him to step down because GM didn't meet the obligations they agreed to by taking taxpayer money, but...

I could of course bring up my dreams from the last 8 years, but Bush isn't in office any more so I'll pass...

-spence

I could of course bring up my dreams from the last 8 years, but Bush isn't in office any more so I'll pass...

-spence

So at least that one dream came true huh? No more Bush....

I'll be having nightmares for at least the next 4 years........

What's amazing is Toyota moves into a rural area and provides thousands of high paying jobs and some people that get those jobs still complain. They should quit and I'm sure someone else will fill there spot.

Buckman why do you think Toyota pays those wages, are they really generous? They paid them to keep near the UAW wages, but pay crappier beni's all to keep a tight hold on their employees. If it wasn't for the UAW, the people at TOYOTA would be making 10 bucks an hour.
There is alot on the internet about Toyota and how they treat their employees. They have a high rate of heart, and stress related deaths in Japan. What the workers in Kentucky are complaining about are instances where someone got injured at work, and because of it they were demoted, given a crappy job on a crappy shift, lost income etc. Are these not legitimate gripes? I am sure if this happened to you , you would be pissed.

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Jeep is kind of a conundrum. They're effing terrible on gas yet people equate "small" with "economy". :rotf3:
My Liberty diesel gets 25 mpg, not as good as I would like with a 2.8l engine but much better than the gas version

What the workers in Kentucky are complaining about are instances where someone got injured at work, and because of it they were demoted, given a crappy job on a crappy shift, lost income etc. Are these not legitimate gripes? I am sure if this happened to you , you would be pissed.

If they were injured due to their own negligence, then I'd demote them too.

Buckman why do you think Toyota pays those wages, are they really generous? They paid them to keep near the UAW wages, but pay crappier beni's all to keep a tight hold on their employees. If it wasn't for the UAW, the people at TOYOTA would be making 10 bucks an hour.
There is alot on the internet about Toyota and how they treat their employees. They have a high rate of heart, and stress related deaths in Japan. What the workers in Kentucky are complaining about are instances where someone got injured at work, and because of it they were demoted, given a crappy job on a crappy shift, lost income etc. Are these not legitimate gripes? I am sure if this happened to you , you would be pissed.

It's kinda funny that they treat their employees the same in Japan, where they don't have these unions. And many of the problems associated with overwork are on the part of the employee, trying to succeed and maybe advance as they advance because of success and not by seniority like union systems. "Well, you are more qualified for the job, but retard Sam (sorry if your name is Sam) is basically qualified and he's been here longer than you, or he's a minority or woman, so we have to promote him."

If you have to do more work to compete with the next guy, who then does more work to beat you.....kind of a vicious circle of guys trying to outdo each other. And not to mention the 3 seasonal bonus's employees get in Japan (the new years bonus is a month to 3 months pay) Almost all employers give great bonus's and they all pay for employee health care.

I lived in Japan for 8 yrs and wife is Japanese, just so you know where I get this info from.

If you don't perform in this type of workplace, you won't succeed. That's the big difference with the unions, If you are the best guy, your benefits or bonus's can't increase any more than the lowest guy (your job level) that can barely do the job. It greatly benefits the non performers (barley working enough not to get fired) while holding back the super stars. If everyone one gets the same benefits and same pay, why work harder than the next guy?

If they were injured due to their own negligence, then I'd demote them too.

Exactly!! Don't promote mediocre or piss poor performers. But if they are union workers, as long as they can barley do the job, you can't fire them. So instead of 5 super star workers needed to get the job done, you've got 10 semi-skilled slackers, s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g all the profits. Untie their hands let them keep the best and fire the rest. If you don't perform, you shouldn't have the damn job. Work needs more motivation on the workers part, so don't pay the the same standard to all workers, but of course then you'd have you'd have Sharpton and Farakan protesting you for discrimination.... If people would think that maybe it's not discrimination, its people not performing at their job..... But God forbid you fire a minority, woman, or gay person for not doing their job........

That's the big difference with the unions, If you are the best guy, your benefits or bonus's can't increase any more than the lowest guy (your job level) that can barely do the job. It greatly benefits the non performers (barley working enough not to get fired) while holding back the super stars. If everyone one gets the same benefits and same pay, why work harder than the next guy?

Sounds kinda like a good defenition of socialism.

The people at Toyota USA are treated and payed far differantly than Toyota Japan. The us plants have wages that are almost on par with the Union autoworkers, this helps keep the unions out. What it does for the manufacturer is allow them to arbitrarily adjust wages. For instance in their new plant they will be pay 3-5 dollars an hour less than the Kentucky plant for the same jobs. They will also be cutting wages at the Kentucky plant, the reasoning will be that the UAW took concessions so you guy will too. There are no negotiations because there is no representation. There is plenty of research that shows when union workers are doing well, it helps drive up the wages of nonunion workers doing similar jobs.

I have worked both sides of the fence union, and nonunion. At the nonunion employer whenever there was a serious threat of unionization the employer gave everyone $1.50/hr raise. This happened 2 times in the six years I was there. Also we worked our asses off at the nonunion job, often times safe practices were not followed, and injuries were the norm. The straw that broke the camels back for me was being passed over for a promotion. The promotion required the passing of a technical exam. I not only passed this exam, but was the first person to get every question correct on the written, and oral tests no one had ever done that before or since. I was assured that one of the two positions was mine. I was then passed over by someone who did poorly on the test, had less time in the company, and was a different skin color than I was. I was told by the foreman that this was pushed by HR. I left, got a better job that is union and have not looked back. Most of the guys at the previous job are all gone because of the high rate of attrition. Many that are left make 3-4 dollars an hour more than they did 14 years ago, while I make 3 times what they make.

As far as the perception that union workers are lazy, a few bad apples should not spoil it for the rest, not all are lazy, and many are very hard working.

I lived in Japan for 8 yrs and wife is Japanese, just so you know where I get this info from.

Lucky bastage. :heybaby:

My line of work brings me in contact with multiple different Unions, in multiple industries throughout the country. I've also worked for 2-3 different unions when I was younger.

Almost every single encounter I have had with Unions has left a sour taste in my mouth - and we're talking dozens of different Unions. I've had to encounter them as a customer, as a mutual vendor and as a supplier. Expenses are always 2-3x higher when a Union is involved, it is impossible to ask for specifics in terms of skill and the rules and limitations make them difficult to work with.

When I word in a Union, there was no point in which I felt any job security. I hated the mentality of Us vs. Them (them being the employer) and how can we bleed the employer for all we can get. Never did the Union stand up for an employee that was wrongly fired.

The Toyota plants have to keep wages up to stay competitive. People are stupid, they don't realized that even though Joe at GM is making $5/hr more that the extra money goes to union dues.

People are stupid, they don't realized that even though Joe at GM is making $5/hr more that the extra money goes to union dues.

How do you know how much their union dues are? Mine are only 19 and some change per week.

Never did the Union stand up for an employee that was wrongly fired. I am not sure of the specifics of you case, but we have gotten many wrongly accused employees their jobs back.

Cool beans, I am aware you lived in Japan, and have a Japanese wife, however did you ever work at the Toyota plant? There is very extensive info on the net about a Japanese woman who husband worked at Toyota. He was given someone else's work to do in addition to his own after someone was let go. He dropped dead of a coronary at 40 years old. He work 14-17 hrs per day. Because of this woman there was a push for laws limiting employers from taking advantage of employees.

As far as someone getting hurt on the job by their own actions, these are accidents, and you should not lose your job because you had an accident, unless you physically can't do it anymore. I am sorry you feel that way Johnny, and I am glad I do not work for you.

My Liberty diesel gets 25 mpg, not as good as I would like with a 2.8l engine but much better than the gas version

They listed the Wrangler in the list, not the Liberty, but kudos to Jeep for making a diesel version of the Liberty.

25mpg isn't that great but considering its technically an SUV (I know my Wrangler got like.... 15?) thats pretty good.

Mark my word
GM will eventually file for bankruptcy and doing this will void the current union contract, then they will start over !
The days of pretty unskilled assembly line workers making more than $70 per hr are over !

The days of pretty unskilled assembly line workers making more than $70 per hr are over !

Good. Now if we can only get rid of the idiot toll booth collectors that cost the same amount. You need less skills to work a toll booth than to work at McDonalds.

Good. Now if we can only get rid of the idiot toll booth collectors that cost the same amount. You need less skills to work a toll booth than to work at McDonalds.

But apparently the on the job injury rate is much higher, you fall asleep and fall off the stool
You have your fingers slammed in the cash drawer.

But apparently the on the job injury rate is much higher, you fall asleep and fall off the stool
You have your fingers slammed in the cash drawer.

Hazards pay for toll booth workers. That's why they make so much. They work in reinforced bunkers. When was the last time one of them got injured?

Average pay for them is $70,000.

Hazards pay for toll booth workers. That's why they make so much. They work in reinforced bunkers. When was the last time one of them got injured?

Average pay for them is $70,000.

when they fell off their stool. it's a patronage job and it will be that way forever, or until they become flagmen

Good. Now if we can only get rid of the idiot toll booth collectors that cost the same amount. You need less skills to work a toll booth than to work at McDonalds.



I won't argue with that !