I'm curious what people think the government should enforce in regards to health insurance regulation.

One thing that I think is really bad, is how insurance companies are dropping coverage because some people just aren't that profitable.

Pre-existing condition? Well, your new insurance won't cover that...

Loose your job? Get COBRA for 7-800 a month for a while...then you're screwed.

Those who actually read my posts know I'm not for a single payer system and don't necessarily advocate the public option.

That being said, reform is certainly necessary even if it cuts into corporate profits.

What say you?

-spence

Tort reform for starters, not as an after thought. I still wouldn't let this bunch of two faced hypocrits reform our Health Ins. If I had a young family I would be very leary of what they will pass. Read the proposed Bill. Everything you heard last night was a lie.

I'm curious what people think the government should enforce in regards to health insurance regulation.

One thing that I think is really bad, is how insurance companies are dropping coverage because some people just aren't that profitable.

Pre-existing condition? Well, your new insurance won't cover that...

Loose your job? Get COBRA for 7-800 a month for a while...then you're screwed.

Those who actually read my posts know I'm not for a single payer system and don't necessarily advocate the public option.

That being said, reform is certainly necessary even if it cuts into corporate profits.

What say you?

-spence


spence, I've held off on this story awhile, but here it is 100% true.
Both my parents worked their entire lives, 10 years ago they semi-retired to Florida. My Mom took another career position, my Dad, worked part time. Due to corporate restructuring, my Mom was laid off. She was the insurance provider and went on Cobra. Well, then 6 months or so pass and we find out my Dad has cancer. My parents panic, I do a ton of research (which conflicts with your assertions above) and we find that as long as you do not let your insurance lapse, pre-existing conditions cannot be held against a person when applying for insurance. Its the LAW. My parents get private insurance and yup, its expensive, but way less than paying the medical costs of cancer treatment. So my sister and I offer to pay the insurance so my parents dont have the burder, they refuse. My Mom, a person who worked her entire life in an office, goes out and gets a job at a supermarket making donuts at 4am, just to get insurance. She fought to get the 30 hrs a week to be eligible for insurance, once again, prexisting conditions where not a factor since their insurance never lapsed and so they discontinued the private insurance and my mom got insurance from the supermarket. She got up 6 days a week at 4am, worked 5 hrs and then took care of my Dad. So........heres my eternal struggle as a conservative, maybe you all can help. How come my parents (mom) could do it? Is it becasue, they're lucky? blessed? white? educated (both only HS degrees)?, or just because they believed that their circumstances were their circumstances and they had to take care of themselves, please help me see the light?

So how many people pay into their insurance plans but can't afford COBRA or find a new job with coverage?

I applaud your parents for making things work, but that's not a one size fits all solution.

-spence

I would like to see Complete Tort Reform.

Interstate competition for current HC already in place.

Tax credits or rebates in a HC account for all Soc Sec card holders to help pay insurance premiums based on income.

Government enforcing the laws against the fraud/ waste of Medicare/ Medicaid.
If there is truly $900 Billion in waste and fraud, those dollars could be returned
to cover tax credits for HC premiums for everyone.

Use Medicare as a safety net for the unemployed seeking work.

Government regulation that all insurance companies offer a basic low cost
plan option.

The main reasons I'm against a government option is the additional cost to
set it up, and the temptation for employers to drop their HC plans forcing
a hugh expensive Government plan that we can't afford.

We already have things in place, tweak them and make them more affordable
being close to 80 % of Americans are happy with their current plan.

Just a few thought off the top of my head.

So how many people pay into their insurance plans but can't afford COBRA or find a new job with coverage?

I applaud your parents for making things work, but that's not a one size fits all solution.

-spence

Spence, while there's not an easy solution that works for everyone, there are options out there. Dunkin Donuts offers BCBS health insurance for hourly employees that work 35 hours per week. And they're hiring f/t employees right now. And they're not the only company doing that. I guess some people might think they're above doing jobs that they think aren't good enough for them. Myself, I'd do what Jim's mom did and do what I have to to have insurance for my family.

The government has already made COBRA easier for people to afford with the American Recovery and Investment Act. The government now pays 65% of the person's premium and they also extended COBRA benefits. This is supposed to be temporary until 12/09, but there is already talk of extending it. And keep in mind that the cost of COBRA for a person is the total cost of the insurance company premium. It's what the employee was paying along with the portion that the employer was contributing. So if employees want to complain about the cost they pay, they should consider that the employer is picking up at least 60% and usually more of the total cost of the monthly premium.

The simple solution to making health insurance more affordable (not considering tort reform) is to have standardized costs for services. Certain procedures, surgeries, imaging, etc... will have a fixed price set by the governnment in conjunction with medical professionals and insurance companies. Hospitals will have fixed prices for rooms and medical devices also. I know it's probably a longer shot than tort reform, but to me it seems to be the most logical solution that wouldn't require 900 billion dollars right off the bat.

There's a lot of people working sh_t jobs for insurance purposes - they could better contribute to society if health insurance was affordable. I think affordable health insurance would free a lot of people to start their own businesses or work at better paying jobs that don't typically provide insurance.

salty, your insurance wont cover your sons broken leg? What DO they cover?
My mom was paying less than 700 a month, private insurance, with full blown cancer. Everything covered!

God bless your Mom and Dad, Jimmy.

Sounds like your parents grew up and worked in the American tradition
where you find ways to take care of yourself.

Your Mom found there have always been ways in this country to take care of yourself if you are
willing to work and sacrifice without Nanny assistance.

can someone please define for me what "affordable health insurance" would be?

Spence is unhappy with his $13,000 a year policy(how much of that do you pay Spence?)

Jimmy's mom was admirably willing to work her butt off to provide their health care insurance for her famly while many would rather complain and whine for divine government intervention rather than put down their cell phone, turn off their big screen, down size their vehical or give up any other lifestyle amenity because they believe someone else should bear the costs of their healthcare and/or insurance

Joe thinks everything would be better if we had affordable insurance..is that 100/month?....300/month?...does this include all the healthcare that you desire and require, dental, specialists, perscriptions, marriage counseling and sex change operations? etc...


seems to me the folks that have the best health insurance situation...government workers, unions ..find themselves complaining about having to pay "COPAYS" !!!!!

so, what exactly is affordable? how much do you want for little or nothing out of your own pocket ?

and even if you get it for little or nothing, will you still be unhappy?

all good info, I usually stay out of the healtcare debate because I dont have a solution. I do know that raising taxes and having the government run with it will be a bad thing. Reform i am for, but a government run plan is not a good thing. We have to stop the tax=solution problem with this country.
Why isnt a simple thing like - you get cheap government insurance if you volunteer 10 hours a month. The governmenr has a website, like ebay where you bid for the use of people's time. If I need help painting a house, I can search for a house painter in the area, I bid for his time, the money goes to the government to pay for insurance? May sound wacky but look how succesfull ebay and craigslist are. These are the type of things I expected from Obama, he was SUPPOSED to be young, hip, tech friendly, all we've seen is a lame democrat who over reaches and relies on tax. Where is the creativty all the youth movement wanted from him? His soluton.....hire a "czar" for every problem.

Edit...ScottW I don't need or want any handouts I just want them to fix this bloated %$%$%$%$ed up broken system they have right now.



I wasn't suggesting that Salty...much of the problem with the system is government involvement currently, RI has I believe more than 1000 mandates for coverage and requirements for h-ins companies presently, as a result there are only 3 providers in RI...many states will not let you purchase catastrophic policies which I believe are the most sensible solution...I've had one for years, I mentioned this before..my family of 5 premium is 300 per month...I pay out of pocket for checkups, dentist, perscriptions up to a max deductible and still come out far ahead after many years of paying BC/BS individually...I spent this morning "shopping" for an abdominal CT scan for my wife... I spoke to the head of the department at Newport Hospital regarding his fee for reading the catscan, when he found out that we were self pay he reduced the cost by 50%...we found the same to be true with the scan itself....I'm not done "shopping" because there are scores of facitities within 50 miles that provide that service at many different prices...few people ever consider what these things cost, they simply pull out their card and someone else takes care of everything...with that reality it's hard to complain when you think that things have gone amuck, in some cases you have no choice but to head right to the emergency room...but in most cases you could absolutely shop around for a doctor that you liked/preferred and felt was not robbing you if you actually had the incentive, you don't with most insurance these days because you purchase through someone else like an employer, a policy that includes for more coverage than you will ever require because they are in most cases mandated to include scores of things by the state....if you purchased individually a policy with things that you felt were necessary and didn't expect an insurance policy to pay for every little bit of medical attention as well as anything that could somehow be construed as medical care(botox, viagara) you'd be far better off and you'd have far more freedom to "shop" for what is best for your particular situation...

in my opinion far too many people now assume that healhcare as well as insurance and medical services are just something that someone else should be paying for, providing and taking care of all of the nasty paperwork so that they may use it at will...


when I say "you"...I'm not saying..you Salty...just you...anyone you..

Stop the frivolous lawsuits, and give actual US citizens matching funds dollar for dollar that they put away in a tax free Health savings plan. and also along the same standards as EIC, give lower income families a 5,000 tax credit each year for their health savings account, then each family only pay for a low cost catastrophic plan to cover the major crisis like cancer.

Many doctor visits and hospital visits are up to 40% cheaper if you pay cash, with these accounts they could pay up front for additional saving..

This simple plan would work and cost way less than the public option.

Of course this health savings account cannot be used for anything not medically related.

Many doctor visits and hospital visits are up to 40% cheaper if you pay cash, with these accounts they could pay up front for additional saving..

This simple plan would work and cost way less than the public option.
So you want to give poor people 5000 cash?

-spence

How come in the US we pay 6000-10000 for a stent, but in other countries it is like 1000-2000? There is something wrong with that. There is something wrong wrong with the health care system, when in the us an MRI cost 1200, but in Japan it is only 98 bucks. We are subsidizing everyone.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/interviews/ikegami.html

So you want to give poor people 5000 cash?

-spence

$5,000 instead of earned income credit, deposited directly into their Health Saving Account, that can be accessed only via an ATM like card that is valid only at medical facilities.

How come in the US we pay 6000-10000 for a stent, but in other countries it is like 1000-2000? There is something wrong with that. There is something wrong wrong with the health care system, when in the us an MRI cost 1200, but in Japan it is only 98 bucks. We are subsidizing everyone.


FRONTLINE: sick around the world: interviews: naoki ikegami | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/interviews/ikegami.html)

Interesting read on that link, thanks for posting it.

I think one of the huge reasons for that is in Japan, it is almost impossible to sue a doctor or medical facility. A doctor may get charged with negligent homicide on cases where his intentions were to cause harm, but otherwise it isn't going to happen.

They believe doctors are trying to help you, not hurt you, so if an occasional accident does happen it is not held against them,, kind of like a Good Samaritan's law.

salty, your insurance wont cover your sons broken leg? What DO they cover?
My mom was paying less than 700 a month, private insurance, with full blown cancer. Everything covered!

Mass Commonweatlh Care won't pay. Mass has some of the highest premiums in the nation and some of the highest paid exec in the health ins..

Jim, did you folks get ins. in FL or RI

Tort Reform. my wife obgyn pays 600K are year for insurance.

How's this for ironic, Comm. Care is managed by a NJ company. What a stupid state I live in

Interesting writeup

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/opinion/13kristof.html?_r=1

See it anytime you go to the E-Room and wait

Interesting read on that link, thanks for posting it.

:agree: good read. Some things we could incorporate in our system.
I like the fact that while their government pays 1/4 of insurance premiums based on income, employers and employees pay the rest with the max $6000/yr.

However, workers have a 30% co-pay for treatment and drugs which is the highest in the world.

From reading other articles i saw where Doctors see about 100-150 patients a day and spend about 3 Min's per patient and make
$100-$150,000/year depending on wether they work in a hospital or clinic I can't see why anyone would want to put in the extra 6 years in time and $$$
to become a doctor to make make $150,000 a year.
Then pay all kinds of overhead and insurance.
I read here that one of the guy's wife's pays $600,000 for OB/GYN coverage.

The best thing about Japan is Malpractice insurance is very low as there are few lawyers.

Hospitals are tight on help and there are few nurses at night.

The Prime Minister determines the price increases every 2 years.
Too much power, IMHO. :(

While they go to the doctor something like 4x more than we do, it's mostly minor stuff that a general practitioner can treat. They are a much healthier people
with 3% obese vs 30% in USA.

I remember when CAT scanners first came out here. The state limited them to 6
hospitals in the state because of cost. Same with the MRI's. Talk about waiting lists.
Anytime you get the government involved things get backed up, and messed up.

From reading other articles i saw where Doctors see about 100-150 patients a day and spend about 3 Min's per patient and make
$100-$150,000/year depending on wether they work in a hospital or clinic I can't see why anyone would want to put in the extra 6 years in time and $$$
to become a doctor to make make $150,000 a year.
Then pay all kinds of overhead and insurance.
I read here that one of the guy's wife's pays $600,000 for OB/GYN coverage.

My girlfriend is in school to become a Physician's Assistant. The "Assistant" term is misleading, in that a PA can do almost as much as an M.D., and significantly more than a Nurse Practitioner. Graduates from her college last year had a *minimum* pay of $88,000 - one person who moved to work a Montana ER started at $110,000.

Their malpractice insurance is also significantly less that an Doc's. It will get to the point where people will say "Why am I going to go to school for 9 years, when I can be come a PA in 5 1/2 to make a similar amount?"

With regards to the OB/GYN malpractice being so high, an ob/gyn doctor is on the hook to be sued for an incident until that child becomes 18. All other doctors, cases must be filed within 3 or 4 years (not sure the exact number), but if a parent has even the slightest proof that their child *might* have suffered brain damage during birth, they can sue the doctor even if the child is 17 years old. Tell me that's not a joke.

but if a parent has even the slightest proof that their child *might* have suffered brain damage during birth, they can sue the doctor even if the child is 17 years old. Tell me that's not a joke.


That's because most 12-16 year olds "Appear" to be brain-damaged....it takes to the age of 18 before you can actually verify medical proof of the condition :hihi: (and that's still debatable)

With regards to the OB/GYN malpractice being so high, an ob/gyn doctor is on the hook to be sued for an incident until that child becomes 18. All other doctors, cases must be filed within 3 or 4 years (not sure the exact number), but if a parent has even the slightest proof that their child *might* have suffered brain damage during birth, they can sue the doctor even if the child is 17 years old. Tell me that's not a joke.

It's a joke for sure JD, and the fact that a person can sue on a contingency basis
without putting out their own $$$ is another joke.

It's a joke for sure JD, and the fact that a person can sue on a contingency basis
without putting out their own $$$ is another joke.

I know a story of doctor being sued (and lost) because he referred a patient to a brain surgeon and the person decided not to go. The patient had a brain tumor as shown with an MRI, and a biopsy needed to be done so that they could evaluate the next step. Patient didn't go, doc referred again, patient didn't go. Two or three months later the person dies and the family sued the doctor for negligence. Received millions.

I'm curious what people think the government should enforce in regards to health insurance regulation.-spence

Of course, we can disregard my suggestion in another thread that insurance IS the problem, and that paying out of pocket would solve that problem. Naturally, that is and old-fashioned concept and is not relevant to the modern world.

Perhaps, you might reframe your question. Instead of what regulations SHOULD the government enforce, might we instead ask what should the government DEREGULATE. Tort reform has been mentioned (damned good point that gets not even a tweak of a response). Instead of federally and by state restricting choices, ALLOW competition between private ins. cos.(not the false competition of privately run by profit versus government run by taxes, debt, and printing money). Insist that people should be AT LEAST as interested and involved in, and ready to pay for their health as they are in paying for TVs, cars, food, clothes, entertainment, education. . .

If you want private ins. cos. to exist, you must let them make the profit they desire. They are looking to make the best return on their investments. And if you restrict that, they can invest elsewhere. If bottom-line profits are so objectionable, then, by all means, let's have the public option. The beauty of that is that it will halt the booming progression of products that extend life. Research will wither for lack of profit motive. Existing drugs will eventually lose proprietary rights, falling into the public domain and be strictly produced for government distribution, many becoming obsolete as resistant biological strains develop. Life span will shrink, solving much of our social security, medicare, and health care costs. Population growth will halt, solving overpopulation, which will solve the global warming problem through decreased use of carbon. The terrorists will not think it worthwile to destroy such a diminished state, besides they won't have enough money due to falling oil sales. And people will finally see the necessity and greatness of an all-powerful, benevolent government and NEVER vote Republican again. UTOPIA!!!

I'm curious what people think the government should enforce in regards to health insurance regulation.

One thing that I think is really bad, is how insurance companies are dropping coverage because some people just aren't that profitable.

Pre-existing condition? Well, your new insurance won't cover that...

Loose your job? Get COBRA for 7-800 a month for a while...then you're screwed.

Those who actually read my posts know I'm not for a single payer system and don't necessarily advocate the public option.

That being said, reform is certainly necessary even if it cuts into corporate profits.

What say you?

-spence

the way that his question is phrased indicates that he is oblivious to any problems existing in healthcare that are not somehow the fault of the private sector, it's evil ceo's and it's management and the delivery of these services, no indication or admission that government's role in healthcare through legislation has led to the exploding costs, just the suggestion that the only way to "make it better" is for government to attach more leaches to the private sector in the form of harsh regulation, his examples regarding what's wrong are simplistic and inaccurate as usual...this is the fundamental reason for the huge impass with healthcare reform, the left is of the mind that the only way to "fix" healthcare is with massive government regulation, take over, dictates and control, unfortunately, they fail to recognize that the other programs currently run by government that you can look to as models of failure are what in fact are currently bankrupting the system, "the socialists(and their programmes) are running out of other peoples money" as Thatcher and Buck indicate and the typical solution from the left is for government to envelop a private sector entity and feed off of it's flesh for a while, until it collapses and dies and then government will move onto another victim (source of cash).....the necessary fixes for healthcare require government to get out of healthcare and reduce the regulatory demands that are put on the system and burden it with over regulation and let competition in the market reduce overall costs...just as with the housing crisis, it is government inserting itself into the system and dictating to the service providers what must and must not be done, or else..that leads to disaster...but a disaster that benefits the BIG government types because it gives them the excuse to insert themselves further of take over and run things themselves..

I saw some poll figures yesterday:

Doctors are against the current proposed HC plan 2 to 1.

45% of Doctors said they would retire if the plan went through.

Where are all these Doc's coming from to handle another 20-50 million people
under this new plan?
The wait to see a specialist is long enough now.
My family had 2 occasions within the last 6 months to need specialists.
It was a 6 week wait to see a neurologist and 4 weeks to see a gastroenterologist. Then another 3 or so weeks to get the tests and wait for the results.
It's like 7 -9 weeks before you know what's wrong.
Imagine what it would be if HC passed.

45% of Doctors said they would retire if the plan went through.

RIIIIGGGHHHTT... :smash:
and 2 out of 3 dentists say...

I agree there are issues, but a line like that begs for a follow up..

Did they only interview doctors over 60?
I can't imagine the doctor who is 45, experienced, finally set-up and comfortable with a career, maybe has his loans paid off, to suddenly retire... right...

it's not just the "providing" of health insurance for everyone, you have to consider that once you begin providing it you have little control over how much the providees will use it, compounding the problem that you mention above...when you are getting something from the government or your employer that you think is your entitlement, you really have no reason not to overuse it, after all, you deserve it, don't you?

I can only tell you what the poll said.
Having said that even if it was only the over 60's, that were fed up and retired, there still wouldn't be enough Docs to fill the breech.

RIIIIGGGHHHTT... :smash:
and 2 out of 3 dentists say...

I agree there are issues, but a line like that begs for a follow up..

Did they only interview doctors over 60?
I can't imagine the doctor who is 45, experienced, finally set-up and comfortable with a career, maybe has his loans paid off, to suddenly retire... right...

yep, Rock, it was probably like that CNN poll of Obama's speech where they polled 45% democrats and 16% republicans to find out what percentage of Americans were swayed by the messiah's words...

I know several young doctors that have closed their practices because they were tired of dealing with paperwork, insurance and regulatory nightmares....particularly related to medicare and the restrictions put on them...some just work for various clinics now and one volunteered at the VA for a while but found he spent most of his time filling out paperwork instead of doctoring...

it's not just the "providing" of health insurance for everyone, you have to consider that once you begin providing it you have little control over how much the providees will use it, compounding the problem that you mention above...when you are getting something from the government or your employer that you think is your entitlement, you really have no reason not to overuse it, after all, you deserve it, don't you?

Yup, that's why the people in Japan go to the Doc 4 times more than Americans.

I know several young doctors that have closed their practices because they were tired of dealing with paperwork, insurance and regulatory nightmares....particularly related to medicare and the restrictions put on them...some just work for various clinics now and one volunteered at the VA for a while but found he spent most of his time filling out paperwork instead of doctoring...

Yes, having worked in the medical field and still having contact
with a few physicians, i know how they feel about medicine now,
let alone what it may become.
Many are going into ER Medicine because there are set hours and they
don't have the headaches of overhead and paper work.

How come in the US we pay 6000-10000 for a stent, but in other countries it is like 1000-2000? There is something wrong with that. There is something wrong wrong with the health care system, when in the us an MRI cost 1200, but in Japan it is only 98 bucks. We are subsidizing everyone.


FRONTLINE: sick around the world: interviews: naoki ikegami | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/interviews/ikegami.html)

I find it interesting that the Japanese make HC "more affordable" by having a government version of "out of pocket" payment (Charge what payer can afford or go out of business). The gov. is a proxy representative of all the individual payers and insurance companies (of which there are many) and states this is what we can afford to pay. Accept it, or go out of business. What a concept!

As for Japan's best-in-world macro health indicators (infant mortality and longevity), it is demonstrably because of their lifestyle, homegeneous culture and lack of immigration problems, etc., NOT because of health care. Their need of health care is less pressing than U.S. citizens who are rather careless, in general, about their health, and who are a far more diverse, uncontrolled population. But survival rates of those undergoing U.S. medical procedures is tops.

Ikegami favors socialistic over market approach to HC only because, in his opinion, HC is a life and death situation. Actually, most HC is not, and what is could be covered by various private ins. cos.--catastrophic, health savings, etc.

Amazing that only 70% of Japanese favor the universal package--80% of US are happy with what they have.

when you are getting something from the government or your employer that you think is your entitlement, you really have no reason not to overuse it, after all, you deserve it, don't you?

LOL, just reminded me of my Mother-in-law. About 20 years ago the government
was handing out cheese every month to senior citizens.

She had a decent income and needed cheese like she needed a hole in the head.
But every month she would line up with the others and brag she got her "free" Cheese. :hihi:

Little did she know, she and i were paying for it with our taxes. :(

Ya get nothin for nothin. :doh:

Interesting writeup

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/opinion/13kristof.html?_r=1

See it anytime you go to the E-Room and wait

What first hit me as curious about this story was the sketchy account of Nikki having a job with health insurance and while on that job discovering she had lupus, then getting progressively sicker until she could no longer work, thereby losing her insurance. If, as stated, lupus can be controlled under a doctor's care, why wasn't that done while she was still employed with insurance?

Then, even more curious, because she couldn't re-acquire insurance because of the pre-existing condition, it was lack of insurance that caused her to die--NOT LACK OF MEDICAL ATTENTION. How about a little pro bono docs/hospitals. You do it all the time for others. Here's a young woman with a life threatening condition and you can't even offer her a cut-rate price (as is often done for uninsured in "insurance situations") and let her make monthly payments. Those might still be high, but there are, at least ways to make them--live at home, drive a used car, eat in, get financial help from parents, she doesn't have to "qualify" for those. And if you help her, she can be healthy enough to work and make the payments. But, no, it all must be INSURANCE, private, government, universal . . . we must all lower our quality of life so that some few can maintain theirs. That's an insult to people like Jimmy's parents.

I have a dear friend that lives just down the street from me...he has been a sole proprietor of a small modest business in Newprort for about 25 years and is in his early 60's, he did not have health insurance several years back when he discovered that he had non- Hodgkins lymphoma, he has received at least two rounds of treatments since and it may be three, the treatments caused degredation of his lower spine and nerve problems resulting in severe neuropathy requiring fusion, he was bed ridden for most of the early part of the year and since reovered only to the point that he can barely get around on his own, his galbladder quit on him late Sunday night and he's been in the hospital since having it removed on Sunday/Monday am and recovering...my point to all of this is that he had/ has no health insurance....he should have had at least purchased a major medical policy but for some reason chose not to, he is not wealthy and despite all of this he has never been refused treatment, he has not lost his house nor his business and is not in danger of doing so, there are a remarkable number of charitable organizations and foundations available to help with expenses for these situations, he has no family but has had help from friends with recovery and day to day activities...if you believe the rhetoric coming from the proponents of this so called reform my friend should be bankrupt, on the street having lost his home and business but it is simply not the case...it's simply scare tactics designed to create an atmosphere that will allow them to massively expand government and it's control and direction of the lives of individual Americans on a daily basis and has nothing to do with compassion... it's socialism....and it's the wrong way for America

this just in...
September 17, 2009
Gee - only a week later we learn Obama was wrong about insurance sob story
Rick Moran
He stood in the well of the House a week ago, looked right into the camera at the American people and lied.

No, not that lie. Not the laughable notion that illegals will be unable to buy into Obamacare. This is a lie where he indicted the entire US healthcare system by claiming someone died because private insurance companies are too greedy.

Jonathan Weisman of the Wall Street Journal has uncovered the real story of what happened to the man Obama claimed was dropped by his insurance company during chemo treatment because of an unreported gallstone:


President Barack Obama, seeking to make a case for health-insurance regulation, told a poignant story to a joint session of Congress last week. An Illinois man getting chemotherapy was dropped from his insurance plan when his insurer discovered an unreported gallstone the patient hadn't known about. "They delayed his treatment, and he died because of it," the president said in the nationally televised address.

In fact, the man, Otto S. Raddatz, didn't die because the insurance company rescinded his coverage once he became ill, an act known as recission. The efforts of his sister and the office of Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan got Mr. Raddatz's policy reinstated within three weeks of his April 2005 rescission and secured a life-extending stem-cell transplant for him. Mr. Raddatz died this year, nearly four years after the insurance showdown.

Obama aides say the president got the essence of the story correct. Mr. Raddatz was dropped from his insurance plan weeks before a scheduled stem-cell transplant.


No, the president did most assuredly NOT get the "essence" of the story correct. In fact, he got the essence wrong - completely.

The "essence" of the story is that the patient died because his treatment was delayed by greedy, heartless, insurance companies. Any boob knows that the point Obama was trying to make was that the patient's death was directly the result of insurance company actions.

But the patient's sister testified before Congress:


The patient's sister, Peggy M. Raddatz, testified before the House Energy and Commerce oversight subcommittee June 16 that her brother ultimately received treatment that "extended his life approximately three years." Nowhere in the hearing did she say her brother died because of the delay. Ms. Raddatz didn't return calls seeking comment.

LOL, just reminded me of my Mother-in-law. About 20 years ago the government
was handing out cheese every month to senior citizens.

She had a decent income and needed cheese like she needed a hole in the head.
But every month she would line up with the others and brag she got her "free" Cheese. :hihi:

Little did she know, she and i were paying for it with our taxes. :(

Ya get nothin for nothin. :doh:

We subsidize the dairy industry in case there is a problem with cows getting sick or producing bad milk in one area of the country, they can quarantine or destroy them and the country can still have milk from other parts. Milk is a necessity for children, the subsidies insure that we always have a safe milk source.

[QUOTE=justplugit;712156]

We subsidize the dairy industry in case there is a problem with cows getting sick or producing bad milk in one area of the country, they can quarantine or destroy them and the country can still have milk from other parts. Milk is a necessity for children, the subsidies insure that we always have a safe milk source.

Good point on always having a safe milk source.
In the 40s and early 50s the subsidy helped the family farmer with milk
prices as, if i remember right, they were only getting 9-11 cents/GALLON.
It helped some of the hardest working people we had, working 14 hours/ day 365/a year round to stay afloat.

Now with a lot of big combines doing most of the farming I'm not crazy about subsidizing to protect them except maybe
your point.

I can only tell you what the poll said.
Having said that even if it was only the over 60's, that were fed up and retired, there still wouldn't be enough Docs to fill the breech.

There aren't enough doctors now in most areas with current demand. Some primary care physicians see over 100 patients in a day.

There aren't enough doctors now in most areas with current demand. Some primary care physicians see over 100 patients in a day.

I've said this before. Most good doctors coming out of med school now, go into research because of the cost of malpractice insurance. Being a doctor isn't as glamorous as tv makes it out to be. Would you want to spend all day looking at lesions on peoples skin, or looking down someones throat while they're coughing all over you? Or better yet, how about having to tell parents that thier kid has a terminal illness. Most medical jobs, as people like JD who have worked in the field can attest, suck. And the money in being a doctor isn't what it used to be.

My sister's boyfriend is a 60 year old doctor - his average face time with a patient is 7 mins.
He gets $150 minimum for an office visit. His hobby is collecting cars.

Obama: Legalize illegals to get them health care - Washington Times (http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/?feat=home_cube_position1)

AZZHOLE :smash::smash::smash:

I'd like to read the speach they're quoting from, because the quotes in the article linked don't support the headline.

-spence

There aren't enough doctors now in most areas with current demand. Some primary care physicians see over 100 patients in a day.

It will only get worse under Obama Care. I saw a poll that had 45% of Doctors leaving the practice if this passes.

It will only get worse under Obama Care. I saw a poll that had 45% of Doctors leaving the practice if this passes.

You Lie!

-spence

You Lie!

-spence


You've just been rebuked. Now go and say hi to Mr. Wilson for me while you're in SC.

Here you go Spence.

Investors.com - 45% Of Doctors Would Consider Quitting If Congress Passes Health Care Overhaul (http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=506199)

Yeah, and don't forget to tack up a Confederate Flag behind the stinky sofa of your double-wide at the Extended Stay Trailer Park - and bring us back some fireworks and tax free smokes.

Here you go Spence.

Investors.com - 45% Of Doctors Would Consider Quitting If Congress Passes Health Care Overhaul (http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=506199)
You are joking, right?

Let's do the math.

1376 doctors out of 800,000 doctors is a sample of .17%

This poll was done by mail, so we can assume somewhat that it's biased towards doctors who are opposed, as they are more motivated to voice their opinion. People who are content don't tend to be as vocal.

This "poll" appears to be contradicted by most other polls.

The 45% number is a (rather un-scientific) linear extrapolation by the author from the .17% to 100%.

I'm sure there are doctors opposed to reform, but this is complete nonsense.

It's like me talking to two people out of a thousand at a company, and because one of them liked my product that 50 people liked my product...

-spence

If your anything Spence, it's pedictable.
All polls are biased one way or the other. You could apply your points to every poll. The ones made during the day only poll those without jobs. The way the questions are worded effect the truth. Yada, yada..... You said "I LIED" and you were wrong, I told the truth.
Apologize to me please.

If your anything Spence, it's pedictable.
All polls are biased one way or the other. You could apply your points to every poll. The ones made during the day only poll those without jobs. The way the questions are worded effect the truth. Yada, yada..... You said "I LIED" and you were wrong, I told the truth.
Apologize to me please.

Polls certainly can be biased, but the better polling organizations use scientific methods and can be pretty accurate.

The statistic you cited, 45%, is not from a poll, it's from the IBD writer of the article.

Perhaps Wilson thought he was telling the truth because he looked at the same phoney stats?

-spence

Wilson apologized and he was right

You've just been rebuked. Now go and say hi to Mr. Wilson for me while you're in SC.

I've actually been in Greenville, SC all day :)

-spence

While you're in SC, stick a rainbow decal on one side of the bumper of your rented car and an Obama/Biden on the other and see how long it takes the cops to drag you out to an onion field and shoot your commie as_

While you're in SC, stick a rainbow decal on one side of the bumper of your rented car and an Obama/Biden on the other and see how long it takes the cops to drag you out to an onion field and shoot your commie as_

Greenville isn't that bad, it's a college town and aside from Bob Jones University is pretty hip.

I'm in the Charlotte airport currently, hour 3 of my 4-1/2 hour layover.

-spence

Let's do the math.
1376 doctors out of 800,000 doctors is a sample of .17%


So you divide da little numbah by da big numbah, and den you move dat little dot over to da right two numbas? Dats pretty smot!

These officers undoubtedly attended sensitivity training at some point in their careers.



The Lexington, Kentucky Police Department reports finding a
man's body in the Kentucky River just west of the Clays Ferry Bridge.

The dead man's name will not be released until his family
has been notified.

The victim apparently drowned due to excessive beer consumption. He was wearing black fishnet stockings, a red garter belt, a pink g-string, a strap-on dildo, purple lipstick, and an Obama t-shirt. He also had a cucumber in his rectum.

The police removed the Obama t-shirt to spare his family any unnecessary embarrassment.


The Police do care.

Ikegami favors socialistic over market approach to HC only because, in his opinion, HC is a life and death situation. Actually, most HC is not, and what is could be covered by various private ins. cos.--catastrophic, health savings, etc.

An afterthought re socialistic solutions to "life and death" situations instead of free market solutions. Food, clothing, shelter, among others, are as much "life and death" situations as health care. Should we not, then, have universal food care, universal clothing care, universal shelter care, etc.?

Should we not, then, have universal food care, universal clothing care, universal shelter care, etc.?

Let's see, we got car companies, banks, insurance companies, govt taking over of
all student loans, proposed health care.
Ya need to give them at least another 8 months till we get the food,another cheese hand out,
clothing, shelter and they blow your nose for you.

An afterthought re socialistic solutions to "life and death" situations instead of free market solutions. Food, clothing, shelter, among others, are as much "life and death" situations as health care. Should we not, then, have universal food care, universal clothing care, universal shelter care, etc.?

Everything is on a spectrum. We already do have some level of aid for many of these situations, food stamps, tax exemptions for clothing in some states, low income housing subsidies etc...

Your argument is akin to the one that says if two gay people can legally marry, then why can't you marry 5 people or a goat or even 5 goats?

History has proven that when society sets reasonable limits the results can indeed be effective even when pulled at from both sides.

-spence

Everything is on a spectrum. We already do have some level of aid for many of these situations, food stamps, tax exemptions for clothing in some states, low income housing subsidies etc...

I realize that we have levels of aid for these situations. The spectrum I was on was Ikegami's preference for socialized UNIVERSAL type health care BECAUSE HC is a "life and death" situation. So, if, we agree that leaving "life and death" solutions to the free market is too harsh and unfair, and our solution to the problem of health care is to mandate that insurance coverage be universal, would it not follow that we should mandate universal coverage for other, even more "life and death" situations?

Your argument is akin to the one that says if two gay people can legally marry, then why can't you marry 5 people or a goat or even 5 goats?

I am not sure if your example is a "life and death" situation, but if it is, by all means, let's mandate some universal coverage for it.

History has proven that when society sets reasonable limits the results can indeed be effective even when pulled at from both sides.
-spence

Cool.

Spence just wants his goat bride covered under his plan.

Spence, I hope your real wife is understanding. Mine won't even let me get a dog.

all I know is that when it comes to the law, keeping a short striper is the same as raping a girl dammit!

Spence just wants his goat bride covered under his plan.

Spence, I hope your real wife is understanding. Mine won't even let me get a dog.

YouTube - Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex Sheep (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_a09G6r-L4)

Sorry....I couldn't resist

If you want to see a Govt. plan similar to the proposed HC Plan, look
back at the William D Ford Federal Direct Student Loan Program passed under
Clinton, meant to compete with private plans. :rolleyes:

" We are not taking a free enterprise system and federalizing it'' the then Deputy Education Madeline Kunin said,
"We are improving entrepreneurial and competitive possibilities." Sound familiar???

So, 16 yrs ago the government started competing for student loans and even though two thirds of students and universties prefer the private companies, with interest rates competitive with the Fed loans, they prefer the private loans, because of superior customer service.

Congress just passed HR 3321 which Federalizes all student loans, which if signed into law, will eliminate fed guarantees on private loans and replace them with the government's Direct Loan Program at a cost of 1 trillion over 10 years.

Th BIG GOVT's hand writing is on the wall. :(

Obama: Health Care Plan Would Give Seniors Right To Choose How They Are Killed | The Onion - America's Finest News Source (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/98348)

Obama: Health Care Plan Would Give Seniors Right To Choose How They Are Killed | The Onion - America's Finest News Source (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/98348)

:smash::smash:

Once in a while I've been able to sneak an article past someone that didn't know about The Onion.

:smash::smash:

Once in a while I've been able to sneak an article past someone that didn't know about The Onion.

You know that there are people who would believe this if you presented it to them. Probably no one in here, but plenty of people that don't spend most of their free time on fishing websites.

You know that there are people who would believe this if you presented it to them. Probably no one in here, but plenty of people that don't spend most of their free time on fishing websites.

Absolutely. There are a large number of people that check this forum but never post. I'm sure at least one of them was fooled.

I guess I should be saving for my health care taxes rather than my biodiesel plant,
Big business strikes again. How many healthcare lobbyists per member? of congress 4?

Reported this morning Olympia Snowe (R) won't go along on Harry Reid's
proposed HC plan. She was locked out of some of the discussions.

Looks like if it passes it will not be a Bi partisan bill.

And it's all in there. Everything Obama said wouldn't be.

Well they sure are in complete control of the Swine Flu vaccine program. That should give us all a little confidence.

THIS SYSTEM IS %$%$%$%$IN BROKEN :smash::smash:

This is Ma Commonwealth Choice renewals for 12/1/09

%$%$%$%$ MEEEEEEEEEE :wall:

I hear you. One of the pains of self-employment.

Try and get under a long-term agreement now. It's only going to get worse from here.

Passing the House doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot...it's a long way from becoming law.

YouTube - Schoolhouse Rock- How a Bill Becomes a Law (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ)

-spence

House Passes Health Care Bill On Close Vote - Health News Story - WCVB Boston (http://www.thebostonchannel.com/health/21549597/detail.html)

LET'S see where we go from here.....

As a self employed individual my gut feeling is we are sooooooooo %$%$%$%$ED now.

$16k a year and 5 years jail time in 2016 if you don't pay it......GTFO of here. :smash:

imo pelosi is even more of a scumbag than I thought she was before.

I'm sure your gut is right.

A 220-215 vote doesn't sit well with me, especially on a bill that will bring massive changes to the way health care is run in this country.

I think Pelosi lives in a constant state of delusion.

I think Pelosi lives in a constant state of delusion.

How she ever got Speaker is beyond me, and being 2 heart beats
away from Commander in Chief is really scary.

How she ever got Speaker is beyond me, and being 2 heart beats
agreed

away from Commander in Chief is really scary.
it's never happened before so I'm not all that concerned.

House health bill unacceptable to many in Senate - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091109/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_overhaul)

""The House bill is dead on arrival in the Senate," Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said."

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., has yet to schedule floor debate and hinted last week that senators may not be able to finish health care this year.

AMAZING WASTE OF TIME......and once again these %$%$%$%$wads have shown their concern for the American people...

"To keep down costs, the government subsidies and consumer protections don't take effect until 2013."

THAT'S WONDERFUL so by then the premiums will be so expensive that the average American can't afford them. Then they'll be building Federal Prisons to house all the healthcare deadbeats.

I'm glad this is dead in the water. The House Bill is a pathetic attempt to change "Health Care Reform" into "Health Care Expansion." The former could have lowered costs overall, the latter will increase costs for most.

After meeting behind closed doors with Biden, Reid "the straw man". will reveal
his secret HC plan at 5:00 PM today. Waiting with baited breath. :)

After meeting behind closed doors with Biden, Reid "the straw man". will reveal
his secret HC plan at 5:00 PM today. Waiting with baited breath. :)

I can't wait for this massive disappointment to come out.

The Congressional Budget Office estimates the Health Care Bill will cause insurance rates to increase 10-13%.

Increase? Where are the savings we were promised???

screw the 10-13% just wait for the tax increase. Savings my ass. :smash:

Salty,this whole thing is insane, if anyone really looks into it they would have to say it makes no sense.

Very scary that this is the brains behind our future health care:yak5:

On health care, Reid likens GOP to civil rights foes - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/3372955)

Brilliant plan Harry, cut $400 Billion from Medicare then add everybody
over age 55 to it. :smash:

I thought the the reason for the HC plan was to cover the uninsured or
did they forget that??????

I thought the the reason for the HC plan was to cover the uninsured or
did they forget that??????

The initial reason for the HC plan was to *Cut Costs*. It has now been mutated into a "healthcare for everyone" situation, with only a vague mention to cost cutting.

Just politics as usual. If you're wrong about your initial plan, just continually repeat something different until the public forgets how it all got started. Reminds me of WMDs turning into "liberating the Iraqi people".

Reminds me of WMDs turning into "liberating the Iraqi people".

Nobody said that liberating the Iraqi people was the reason we went in JD. It's just what happens we you remove a dangerous, lying, brutal enemy of the USA from power. That really bothers you eh?

Nobody said that liberating the Iraqi people was the reason we went in JD.
George W. Bush.

-spence

JD's record is broken...

look at it this way, if we hadn't gone into Iraq..Barak Hasan Obama could bitch in all of his speeches that Bush ignored the threat that Saddam posed for the last 8 years and now he has to deal with it rather than fixing the economy....I'm sure that UN sanctions would have been just as effective as removing Saddam, they are working just swimmingly with Iran:rotf2:

JD's record is broken...

look at it this way, if we hadn't gone into Iraq..Barak Hasan Obama could bitch in all of his speeches that Bush ignored the threat that Saddam posed for the last 8 years and now he has to deal with it rather than fixing the economy....I'm sure that UN sanctions would have been just as effective as removing Saddam, they are working just swimmingly with Iran:rotf2:

Iran hasn't really seen very harsh UN sanctions yet. Bush's complete lack of (disdain for really) diplomacy is still being felt.

Interesting to think that we were actually working together in Afghanistan after 9/11 before the "Axis of Evil" speech.

-spence

George W. Bush.

-spence

Show me where he said that was the REASON we went in!:confused:

Iran hasn't really seen very harsh UN sanctions yet. Bush's complete lack of (disdain for really) diplomacy is still being felt.

Interesting to think that we were actually working together in Afghanistan after 9/11 before the "Axis of Evil" speech.

-spence

Diplomacy in regards to Iran is only helping Iran create the time it needs to have a WMD. It's not working Spence, understand? Why don't we have tougher sanctions in place?
Hell Obama's done so much in his first year. I believe on all fronts, including home we were better off with Bush. Show me where I'm wrong.

Diplomacy in regards to Iran is only helping Iran create the time it needs to have a WMD. It's not working Spence, understand? Why don't we have tougher sanctions in place?
Hell Obama's done so much in his first year. I believe on all fronts, including home we were better off with Bush. Show me where I'm wrong.

Why exactly is any of the above America's responsibility to fix? Iran having the bomb is significantly less dangerous than N. Korea having the bomb. It's, literally, not our problem. Iran having the bomb is probably less of a risk to the US than Pakistan - at least Iran has a legitimate.

Why don't we have tougher sanctions?
You tell me. Bush had since his declaration in 2002 of Iran being part of the Axis of Evil to get sanctions in place.

.

Why don't we have tougher sanctions?
You tell me. Bush had since his declaration in 2002 of Iran being part of the Axis of Evil to get sanctions in place.

Bush was working on his Nobel Peace prize:rotf2:

Bush had since his declaration in 2002 of Iran being part of the Axis of Evil to get sanctions in place.

so it was up to Bush to get UN sanctions in place???? was Bush blocking any proposed UN sanctions against Iran? maybe just the "really harsh" ones :rotf2:

Diplomacy in regards to Iran is only helping Iran create the time it needs to have a WMD. It's not working Spence, understand? Why don't we have tougher sanctions in place?
Hell Obama's done so much in his first year. I believe on all fronts, including home we were better off with Bush. Show me where I'm wrong.
What gave Iran the time to develop their nuke program was precisely a complete lack of diplomacy. Bush did his best to ignore Iran as he was occupied with Iraq. The inside scoop is even that Iran was so terrified of a US invasion after we bounced Saddam that they tried to reach out to us to get a dialogue going, but the Bush Admin would have none of it.

Now, many of the other global players have even deeper interests in Iran. Obama has inherited a very difficult situation, but it seems like he is pulling a unified front together with a real deadline looming very soon...if it's not too late.

-spence

so it was up to Bush to get UN sanctions in place???? was Bush blocking any proposed UN sanctions against Iran? maybe just the "really harsh" ones :rotf2:

Nope. But buckman's inferring that it is our President's job to get sanctions in place.

Bush and Blair couldn't get it done for the same reason Obama and Gordon Brown haven't be able to - the Chinese and Russians have too many financial interests in Iran and will veto proposed sanctions. Strong enough support from other members in the Security Council (and UN as a whole)needs to exist and they must step up and put pressure on the Chinese and Russians.

Nope. But buckman's inferring that it is our President's job to get sanctions in place.

Bush and Blair couldn't get it done for the same reason Obama and Gordon Brown haven't be able to - the Chinese and Russians have too many financial interests in Iran and will veto proposed sanctions. Strong enough support from other members in the Security Council (and UN as a whole)needs to exist and they must step up and put pressure on the Chinese and Russians.

Don't worry JD, Bush looked into Putin's soul and he's a trusty fellow who I'm sure we share much common ground with.

Not sure what he saw when he looked at the Chinese people.

-spence

What gave Iran the time to develop their nuke program was precisely a complete lack of diplomacy. Bush did his best to ignore Iran as he was occupied with Iraq. The inside scoop is even that Iran was so terrified of a US invasion after we bounced Saddam that they tried to reach out to us to get a dialogue going, but the Bush Admin would have none of it.

Now, many of the other global players have even deeper interests in Iran. Obama has inherited a very difficult situation, but it seems like he is pulling a unified front together with a real deadline looming very soon...if it's not too late.

-spence

Maybe you could give us " the inside scoop" as to what the looming deadline will entail.

Maybe you could give us " the inside scoop" as to what the looming deadline will entail.

This is very interesting...

Obama Prepares to Get Tough on Iran | Newsweek Politics | Newsweek.com (http://www.newsweek.com/id/226495)

-spence

Too good not to post :rotf2:

LMAO, Salty, just choked on my sandwich. :hihi:

Funnie, but true. :(

This is very interesting...

Obama Prepares to Get Tough on Iran | Newsweek Politics | Newsweek.com (http://www.newsweek.com/id/226495)

-spence

Spence, not to take away from your HC thread,
but it's taken Obama close to a a year for him to figure out "an outstretched hand to Iran
will not on it's own produce the results he needs."??????

Flash- with crazies, you deal from strenght first,
THEN you offer "an outstrectched hand to get the results you need."

Flash- with crazies, you deal from strenght first,
THEN you offer "an outstrectched hand to get the results you need."

Dealing from strength first (IE. the Bush method) proved to be quite effective with Iran and North Korea. The proof is in today's news:
North Korean plane carrying smuggled arms seized in Thailand | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/13/north-korea-arms-smuggling-plane)
Iran 'ready to swap uranium for fuel' - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/13/iran.nuclear/index.html)

Spence, not to take away from your HC thread,
but it's taken Obama close to a a year for him to figure out "an outstretched hand to Iran
will not on it's own produce the results he needs."??????

Flash- with crazies, you deal from strenght first,
THEN you offer "an outstrectched hand to get the results you need."

Did you read the linked article?

One key point was that Obama's failed effort to pursue a peaceful diplomatic solution has earned him the chits necessary to get Russia and China to potentially play ball.

Or put more simply, he's done his diligence...

Bush had no patience nor respect for International laws, and the result was 8 years of complete inaction. Yet, you're fretting over 9 months where it looks (on paper at least) like we're making some progress?

This isn't a situation where we can just sock a bully (or a crazy) in the mouth. I think they might be on to something here...

-spence

This is very interesting...

Obama Prepares to Get Tough on Iran | Newsweek Politics | Newsweek.com (http://www.newsweek.com/id/226495)

-spence

Yes it is.

Did you read the linked article?

One key point was that Obama's failed effort to pursue a peaceful diplomatic solution has earned him the chits necessary to get Russia and China to potentially play ball.

Or put more simply, he's done his diligence...

Bush had no patience nor respect for International laws, and the result was 8 years of complete inaction. Yet, you're fretting over 9 months where it looks (on paper at least) like we're making some progress?

This isn't a situation where we can just sock a bully (or a crazy) in the mouth. I think they might be on to something here...

-spence


He's retained Bush's man do do the job Bush warned needed to be done years ago. This, IOM is a good thing.

Did you read the linked article?

One key point was that Obama's failed effort to pursue a peaceful diplomatic solution has earned him the chits necessary to get Russia and China to potentially play ball.

Or put more simply, he's done his diligence...

Yet, you're fretting over 9 months where it looks (on paper at least) like we're making some progress?

This isn't a situation where we can just sock a bully (or a crazy) in the mouth. I think they might be on to something here...

-spence

Yes I read the article, that's where the quote came from.

I like the word potentially when used about China and Russia getting on board.
We haven't even been able to get our Allie?, Italy to stop selling helicopters to Iran.

It's 11 months now not 9. Another month and he owns it all.

Your right, but you can say what you mean and mean what you say
showing you are coming from a source of power, not bowing down and
making nice.

Tough situation all around with no simple answers, for sure,
but you can't reason with an unreasonable man.

Tough situation all around with no simple answers, for sure,
but you can't reason with an unreasonable man.
One man doesn't run Iran.

-spence

One man doesn't run Iran.

-spence

Well let me change that, you can't reason with unreasonable men. :)

One man doesn't run Iran.

-spence

Well kind of, but it's not Ahmadinejad. It's mostly Ayatollah Khamenei.

Back to HC. Just got back from my opthamologist who now requires
photo ID along with the proof of insurance because of a new Big Brother requirement called Red Tag or Red Flag?
If you haven't heard of it yet, you will, as according to him it will be required for
all business where billing is done.
Another way of tracking and getting personal info.

Home of the SEE and the Brave. :(

Sooo... it's an issue that they want to make sure the patient they are seeing is the actual patient?

Yeah, what a hassle

Sooo... it's an issue that they want to make sure the patient they are seeing is the actual patient?

Yeah, what a hassle

Sounds like a measure to combat fraud.

-spence

Yeah, what a hassle

Not for me RRH, i'm on Medicare they have my medical records.

It's the guys that have private insurance where now their records are open
through the back door by another government agency, and the
businesses who bill others having the extra hassel and expense of keeping
even more records.

Looks like Nelson sold out.
Earmarks, earmarks and more earmarks.
Wasn't it Obama who promised no bill with earmarks would pass his desk?
How do these guys live with themselves?

The final vote scheduled 1:30 in the morning when we can't look these guys in
the eye when they say aye. Just that alone is enough for me to know
they are trying to pull a fast one on the American public.

Like my Dad used to say about my 12:00 AM curfew as a teenager,
"Nothing good can happen after 12 AM."
I knew he was right then, and nothing has changed since.

If this were a good bill they would be shouting about it from the roof tops.

It's going to get done.. How's that whole transparency thing working for ya?
You don't have to play by the rules (even when you set them yourself) if no one holds you accountable.

Watch out. Obama's a checklist kind of guy. While everyone is criticizing the last initiative, he's on to the next.

I heard Steve Forbes interviewed on the radio this morning.

He agrees HC competition should be opened across state lines.

His personal policy in NJ is costing him $15,000, a plan with the
same benefits from Pa. would cost him $7,000.

What a waste this humongous HC Bill is. :(

Appears the pharmaceutical companies got a sweet deal....hey, wasn't that emergency appointment to Kennedy's seat a pharmaceutical lobbiest?
Wow, I mean WOW, that's a weird coincidence.

Thank you DEMS!!! And you managed to screw the seniors too.

My hardcore liberal sister-in-law (who is a scialist in every sense of the word) is furious with Obama. She resides in the Howard Dean camp that this bill is nothing the progressive core liberals wanted. Every item they wanted has been wiped clean. She admits it is junk and thinks Obama and Rahm sold out to the insurance lobby. She could spit on Obama today... three months ago she thought he walked on water. Piece by piece it is all coming undone... might explain this....

Daily Presidential Tracking Poll - Rasmussen Reports (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll)

I hear you..I just got back from the hardware store and 3 elderly gentlemen were discussing the bill and Obama and they were pissed off. They were talking about all his lies.. "Worst President ever"..and the guy that said that was like 90.

I hear you..I just got back from the hardware store and 3 elderly gentlemen were discussing the bill and Obama and they were pissed off. They were talking about all his lies.. "Worst President ever"..and the guy that said that was like 90.

That same old guy probably still thinks Rock&Roll is evil:jump1::smash:

That same old guy probably still thinks Rock&Roll is evil:jump1::smash:


Nice, Bash the old guy who fought in WWII:rollem:

Interesting that hard left democrats are pissed off because its not socialized medicine, and the right is pissed off because it is socialized medicine.

Nice, Bash the old guy who fought in WWII:rollem:

Nice. Pull out the veteran card like he was suppose to know. :p

Interesting that hard left democrats are pissed off because its not socialized medicine, and the right is pissed off because it is socialized medicine.

I'm pissed off because we can't afford it, it's a lousy bill that doesn't fix any problems but creates more hardship. It's based on fiscal lies. It screws senior citizens..... there is a reason they are doing it at this time. It's a sucky bill and they are ramming it down our collective throats. We deserve better. VOTE THEM OUT. or not. It's up to you.

Interesting that hard left democrats are pissed off because its not socialized medicine, and the right is pissed off because it is socialized medicine.

No one really knows what it actually is aside from what Fox News, MSNBC and CNN reports.

In one poll, more than half of Americans want this to go through - in another, less than 40% want it - in yet another, a public-option has over 60% support.

As a business owner, I'm prepping ourselves to bend over, grab the ankles and take it like a prison inmate.

Nothing good will come from this.

Nice. Pull out the veteran card like he was suppose to know. :p

Try to discredit people who are old as stupid and you may eat a little crow:biglaugh: That's a big problem in America. We don't tap into the vast wealth of knowledge and life experiences our older people have to offer.
Some of us think we are more knowledgable but we are not smarter. There is a difference.

I hear you..I just got back from the hardware store and 3 elderly gentlemen were discussing the bill and Obama and they were pissed off. They were talking about all his lies.. "Worst President ever"..and the guy that said that was like 90.

I'm sure the next sentence was going to be "and the damm government should keep their hands of my medicare"

Try to discredit people who are old as stupid and you may eat a little crow:biglaugh: That's a big problem in America. We don't tap into the vast wealth of knowledge and life experiences our older people have to offer.
Some of us think we are more knowledgable but we are not smarter. There is a difference.

So what you're saying is that people of his generation *didn't* think that Rock & Roll was music of devil worshipers?

Seriously though, you're right. 4 years working full time as an EMT, about half our patients were basic transports to/from doctor's appts for people over 60. 10, 20, 30 minutes in the back of an ambulance with these folks with nothing to do but some paperwork allows a lot of time for discussion. Many people I'd see every (sometimes multiple times) a week and I always appreciated the knowledge I would gain from their opinion coming from the polar opposite side of the age spectrum, not to mention the wisdom that radiates from them if you take the time to listen.

Hell, just about everything I know about fishing is due to the overwhelming generosity of a few people (who have now become good friends) that have decades of fishing experience, some with more experience than years I've been alive. I hold a deep appreciate for their wisdom and guidance.

So what you're saying is that people of his generation *didn't* think that Rock & Roll was music of devil worshipers?

.

You guys liked " Waterboy" eh?

As a business owner, I'm prepping ourselves to bend over, grab the ankles and take it like a prison inmate.


and you'll be getting exactly what you voted for...he warned you and you didn't listen.......:uhuh: Hope and Change:rotf2:

and you'll be getting exactly what you voted for...he warned you and you didn't listen.......:uhuh: Hope and Change:rotf2:

Actually, this isn't at all the HC Overhaul that was campaigned. So, you're wrong.

Also, as many of you forget, Obama isn't drafting the bill. He's blindly campaigning for the American people to get behind whatever the House and Senate come up with. Essentially, even he doesn't fully know what he's trying to sell. That isn't a defense for his actions, but this certainly isn't "Obama's Bill" as many of you like to portray it as.

Actually, this isn't at all the HC Overhaul that was campaigned. So, you're wrong.

Also, as many of you forget, Obama isn't drafting the bill. He's blindly campaigning for the American people to get behind whatever the House and Senate come up with. Essentially, even he doesn't fully know what he's trying to sell. That isn't a defense for his actions, but this certainly isn't "Obama's Bill" as many of you like to portray it as.

Johhny, this is not Obama's bill, per se. It's his forcing something through so he has one accomplishment to hang his hat on after a year in office. It's sad how he had to use threats and scare tactics just so he could claim that one of his campaign promises was kept after a year. I can't wait to hear him proclaim success with a plan that most Americans want nothing to do with.

Johhny, this is not Obama's bill, per se. It's his forcing something through so he has one accomplishment to hang his hat on after a year in office. It's sad how he had to use threats and scare tactics just so he could claim that one of his campaign promises was kept after a year. I can't wait to hear him proclaim success with a plan that most Americans want nothing to do with.

You're right. When the bill passes and he signs it, then signing off on it is completely on his shoulders, as is his current campaigning for it. However, many portray this entire situation as though Obama has sat down and written every nonsense clause in the bill and has personal ownership over the contents, which isn't the case at all - the idiots in the House and Senate hold that responsibility.

In the end, it's just easier for people to bitch about Obama and state the contents of the bill are completely his fault then doing a some research into who has been pushing which sections, who is requiring earmarks for their vote, who is for or against the abortion sections, or who's for the public-option.

I agree that he should be criticized about his blind support for the bill, but this isn't "Obama's Bill" as people here (and Obama himself) often portray it as. People tend to forget that we have a Legislative branch of government that does the legislating.

Try to discredit people who are old as stupid and you may eat a little crow:biglaugh: That's a big problem in America. We don't tap into the vast wealth of knowledge and life experiences our older people have to offer.
Some of us think we are more knowledgable but we are not smarter. There is a difference.

Thanks Buckman, at age 70, I couldn't agree with you more.

Imho, intelligence without being tempered with experience and wisdom is not intelligence at all.

Everything we ever learn comes from someone else and if we are intelligent we'll never stop learning and listening to others.

When your young you never think you'll get old, but trust me, enjoy everyday, cause you'll be a senior in the wink of an eye.
Now your runnin, soon you'll be walkin.

Btw- i still love my Rock and Roll, Classic Rock and even some Rap.
Listen to it everyday. :) Most of my friends do too.

I agree that he should be criticized about his blind support for the bill, but this isn't "Obama's Bill" as people here (and Obama himself) often portray it as. People tend to forget that we have a Legislative branch of government that does the legislating.

I would call, it an "Obama, Pelosi, Reid Bill" as they are the main players,
the ones filling the back rooms with deals,with some calling it bribes and threats to get it passed.
I don't call that legislating, and certainly not representing the will of the American people.

But in the end Obama owns it, as it was his campaign promise to get one passed.

He doesn't have to sign it JD.

He doesn't have to sign it JD.

Yup, let's see the Obama Balls on the table here. We are gettin fleeced.

Oh, I forgot, Demcratic majority house and senate, oops!!

My hardcore liberal sister-in-law (who is a scialist in every sense of the word) is furious with Obama. She resides in the Howard Dean camp that this bill is nothing the progressive core liberals wanted. Every item they wanted has been wiped clean. She admits it is junk and thinks Obama and Rahm sold out to the insurance lobby. She could spit on Obama today... three months ago she thought he walked on water. Piece by piece it is all coming undone... might explain this....

Daily Presidential Tracking Poll - Rasmussen Reports (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll)

Is your sister in law a Blonde?

Is your sister in law a Blonde?

I don't know, are you an Ass :smash:

This bill looks like a Christmas tree with goodies for all the holdouts.

Reid says "A number of states are treated differently than other states.
That's what legislation is all about, compromise."

Ya right, he's gotta be kiddin me.
Looks like a desperation bill, which gives whatever they want for the holdouts, so they can meet an artificial dead line,
at our cost.
Took a no cost Medicaid offer for Nevada for Nelson to sell out.

He doesn't have to sign it JD.

Nope, he doesn't... but he will and I've acknowledged that he will with:
"When the bill passes and he signs it, then signing off on it is completely on his shoulders, as is his current campaigning for it."

Actually, this isn't at all the HC Overhaul that was campaigned. So, you're wrong.

Also, as many of you forget, Obama isn't drafting the bill. He's blindly campaigning for the American people to get behind whatever the House and Senate come up with. Essentially, even he doesn't fully know what he's trying to sell. That isn't a defense for his actions, but this certainly isn't "Obama's Bill" as many of you like to portray it as.

Obama says he's getting 95% of what he wanted in the bill, one of you is lying...

"Obama said the Senate legislation accomplishes 95 percent of what he wanted on health care. "Every single criteria for reform I put forward is in this bill," the president said in an interview with The Washington Post."

there's that pesky number again 95%.....


again...let me be clear ... EVERY SINGLE CRITERIA FOR REFORM I PUT FORWARD IS IN THIS BILL....

QUOTE justplugit:
"I would call, it an "Obama, Pelosi, Reid Bill" as they are the main players"

I believe we have a new Axis of Evil:uhuh:

No matter he is a one term wonder, and then when a republican gets voted in the short sighted will just blame the republicans for the bad health care plan.

Interesting that hard left democrats are pissed off because its not socialized medicine, and the right is pissed off because it is socialized medicine.

It's not so much an either/or as it is a too much socialism vs. wanting more socialism. For the hard left, it was a chance for a big leap toward a socialist state instead of the slower, incremental shifting toward the Hobbesian Leviathan that has been occuring almost from the nation's beginning. The financial "crisis," the climate change conference, and the health care bill were massive opportunities to reinterpret/change the Constitution as granting positive powers to the State to DO for us as a group rather than only being a list of prohibitions of what it CANNOT DO against us as individuals, as well as opportunities to redistribute wealth from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

But, incremental steps in a socialist direction have been taken. That's why there is displeasure on both sides.

This is no fun!!! No one want's to defend any of this. Isn't this what you Obama lovers wanted???

This is no fun!!! No one want's to defend any of this. Isn't this what you Obama lovers wanted???

just wait till next year...VAT tax..they're talking a financial transactions tax, Charlie Wrangle and Geitner are planning to "tweak" the tax code to make sure everyone is paying their fair share even though neither pay their own taxes, amnesty for millions and millions, Cap and Trade, extend unemployment again and again, more stimulus, Card Check, maybe save or create a job or two....hope the Obama's enjoy their Hawiian holiday...seems like they never get away in these difficult financial times when everyone is struggling....:rotf2:

hey, what ever happened to Kawanzaa?...I swear I have not heard the word once this season...don't tell me it's gone the way of Ebonics? I used to think it was cool when the kids came home from school with the Kawanzaa hats...oh well... Happy Kawanzaa to all....and to American Freedom and Liberty...good night...

Oh damn Harry, we may have a little math problem.

This is no fun!!! No one want's to defend any of this. Isn't this what you Obama lovers wanted???

Nope.
I wanted what he campaigned on.
Reform, reduced costs and Universal care for minors.

you know what sucks?
It seems to be this or nothing. The republicans had 6 years under bush and it got worse, costs rose, and even more people are unemployed. Now at least something is being tried. If it starts to fail it will get yanked long before the 10 years is up. I know more than a few people on here are uninsured, but according to Scott, if you're under 40, it isn't a big deal. Or was it under 30? or under 25?


regardless. Happy holidays everyone.

Nope.
I wanted what he campaigned on.
Reform, reduced costs and Universal care for minors.

you know what sucks?
It seems to be this or nothing. The republicans had 6 years under bush and it got worse, costs rose, and even more people are unemployed. Now at least something is being tried. If it starts to fail it will get yanked long before the 10 years is up. I know more than a few people on here are uninsured, but according to Scott, if you're under 40, it isn't a big deal. Or was it under 30? or under 25?


regardless. Happy holidays everyone.

:love:

I know more than a few people on here are uninsured, but according to Scott, if you're under 40, it isn't a big deal. Or was it under 30? or under 25?



HUH? when did I say that?...aready hittin' the eggnog with visions of Global Warming dancing in your head? I'm buying land in Greenland next year and opening a winery when it melts or collapses, did you know that the Vikings grew some kick ass grapes up there the last time that it melted? :buds:

hey Bry...name the last government program that was ever yanked for it's failure or ended after it cured the ill that it was created to solve and promised to resolve :rotf2:

baby's first Christmas is magical...really enjoy it!!!

Nope.
I wanted what he campaigned on.
Reform, reduced costs and Universal care for minors.

you know what sucks?
It seems to be this or nothing. The republicans had 6 years under bush and it got worse, costs rose, and even more people are unemployed. Now at least something is being tried. If it starts to fail it will get yanked long before the 10 years is up. I know more than a few people on here are uninsured, but according to Scott, if you're under 40, it isn't a big deal. Or was it under 30? or under 25?


regardless. Happy holidays everyone.

Not to let a little thing called the Constitution get in the Dems way Brian, but they put wording in the bill to prevent this "something" from being revoked.

I don't know, are you an Ass :smash:

NO!

Are U a Democrat? If U R U would have to be an ASS! Why else would a group have a JackAss for a symbol.

Flash-- NYT reports today- Harry Reid voted NO on his own HC bill then realized what he did and changed his vote to yes.:rotflmao:

Our esteemed Senate leader. :D

Prolly a Freudian slip, sub consciously knowing the bill is a travesty. :hihi:

Not to let a little thing called the Constitution get in the Dems way Brian, but they put wording in the bill to prevent this "something" from being revoked.
Like what, no backsies? :laugha:

-spence

Like what, no backsies? :laugha:

-spence

Glad to see that after being played for a fool and lied to, you still have your sense of humor.:rotf2:

Merry Christmas America

Mayo Clinic annouces it will no longer accept Medicare patients.
Indication of things to come?

Don't grow old guys. :doh: