Its very tricky business trying to save the small late run fish.

As I have written about before , I lived very close to the Atom lure factory and would regularly get seconds by the handsful. They had rules on numbers allowed but they knew me after a while and knew I was not selling them. It also helped to talk to Bob now and then about conservation and to but plenty of the Stripers unlimited tees and sweatshirts and hoodies , etc.

To the point. I would actually ask them to rig the seconds bodies custom for me. In the spring it was treble hooks with bucktail but towards the fall I would load up with 2 OZ atom poppers with the single long J hook on the back end.

Without a doubt the most fun way to catch fall rats is by surface popping in the daylight. It is a ball to see the action. Its also good trainingt for some people who just flip wheh they see a strike and pull the kure out of the strike zone because they are so excited they get spastic.

Now this run of small fish chasing innumerable peanuts up onto the beach in the late fall is posted as a great unuasual thing but in fact it happens every year. Not every morning or every night but it happens many times and sometyimes both morning and night and all day long eevery year.

So trying to save fish from dying I would go with the standard Atom popper single hook set up with everyone over 30 should know well and many younger should occasionally see on the new atom poppers someone else is molding now. After a while though I started going back to a single small treble and then back to a single J hook but with a very short shank.

the trouble is these are small fish. Thet 2 inch long single point hook hanging off the back of a long slender lure (which almost all striper lures are long and slender , not just atom popper) is that the fish gets about half the popper into its mouth and the whole hook. This puts the point of the hook way down into the fishes throat and very often the hook gets through tyhe gils and sticks in there.

Now barbles helps but one the point is in its gut or in its gills and you start pulling on it to bring the fish in you start tairing things up in vital areas of the fish. Add to that all the flopping and fighting the fish do and you are killing some fish on a hundred fish day (its no exageration that a good fisherman fishing morning and night can land 100 of these dinks in a day , day after day if they so choose.

So anyway , what I think is best is to use a short shank single hook with the barb files down. This really does reduce your cahnce for a hookup on any given strike but if you are good at working the plugs , especially not spazzing out on the first strike of a surface plug , you will catch plenty of fish and feel much better about not killing these small fish.

Now maybe people are noot looking or don't want to see but along the beach after a big session of 50 people shoulder to shoulder catching dinks , you will see several fish wash up dead. Sometimes you don't see them until the next morning or after the tied changes diractions but they will be there if you spend a few days on the sand and look.

Now thsi may not agree with what many say about saving these fish but I think sometimes a medium size treble at the front of the lure would be the best solution. These small fish seldom swallow the whole lure but do often swallow the bottom half. If the treble is at the front of the plug its very unlikely you will damage the guts or the gils. You may get some in the ye but IMO that doesn't kill them and happens sometimes anyway with every hook arrangement. This set up will probably greatly reduce your take but you will still catch plenty and have fun trying for the "fish in a barrel" ith a less deadly arrangement. Of course the last extension of the idea is the medium sixe single hook rigged on the front of the lure. Like the treble this will sometimes foul your line and be much harder to get hookups but would probably be the least damaging to the fish .

The last comment I have is on the line used. If you break off a lure thats in the fish its going to die. many people feel its more sporting to go to very light line for these fall rats but in fact that leads to a lot of breakoffs. I think you want to stay with the 16 tp 20 lb test line and of course a thin very high stergth braid would reduce the chance of breakoffs even more.

So anyway , thats my preching for today about how to mionimize the chances of killing these small fish. I originally posted this as a post in the other thread where someone reported a big run of fish but decided its pretty important and deserved its own therad and discusiion.

I'm interested in what other long time fisherman do to reduce mortality when rat fishing these million fish late fall runs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Saltheart

My approach to smaller fish is I simply don't target them. This isn't to suggest I don't incidentally catch them, but most of my gear and technique is geared towards big stuff. I typically won't start the fishing season until mid may(when the big migrants arrive), and will avoid the late season daytime fishing, which is mostly micros. A couple other suggestions though...

1. Don't pad your numbers by standing at the shore banging 10 or 20 or 50 plus tiny fish just to say you caught a bunch. Let them be or quit earlier...how many do you really need to catch anyways?

2. If you're really in need, get an ultralight and catch some bluegills, they pull just as hard provided you scale the gear down. A 15" fish on an 8',9', or 10' surf rod just isn't sporting.

3. Give it a rest at some point...guys chase the fish throughout the winter in their natal waters, thus the fish never get a break, regardless of size.

4. Fish bigger offerings if you're among a lot of small fish. Many here frown on eels, but utilizing them is a great way to keep the small fish from being hooked in large numbers.

5. Take a lesson from Numbskull and target something really challenging such as a sea robin with a topwater plug...how many here can say they've ever done it successfully?

small bucktail jig or small storm, bend down the barb

5. Take a lesson from Numbskull and target something really challenging such as a sea robin with a topwater plug...how many here can say they've ever done it successfully?

Not on a topwater plug, but certainly caught some on flies over the years, and a few on pogie chunks.

One day a buddy of mine caught a slam of a searobin, porgie, tog and cunner on the fly, one after the other ... in certain NY state waters ... and there were stripers and blues crashing all around ... crazy day ...

I dont target stripers at all. Just troll for Fluke. :confused:

eliminate multiple trebles
go with bigger single hooks
and go barbless
found the catch ratio not much different

My approach to smaller fish is I simply don't target them. This isn't to suggest I don't incidentally catch them, but most of my gear and technique is geared towards big stuff. I typically won't start the fishing season until mid may(when the big migrants arrive), and will avoid the late season daytime fishing, which is mostly micros. A couple other suggestions though...

1. Don't pad your numbers by standing at the shore banging 10 or 20 or 50 plus tiny fish just to say you caught a bunch. Let them be or quit earlier...how many do you really need to catch anyways?

2. If you're really in need, get an ultralight and catch some bluegills, they pull just as hard provided you scale the gear down. A 15" fish on an 8',9', or 10' surf rod just isn't sporting.

3. Give it a rest at some point...guys chase the fish throughout the winter in their natal waters, thus the fish never get a break, regardless of size.

4. Fish bigger offerings if you're among a lot of small fish. Many here frown on eels, but utilizing them is a great way to keep the small fish from being hooked in large numbers.

5. Take a lesson from Numbskull and target something really challenging such as a sea robin with a topwater plug...how many here can say they've ever done it successfully?

Back Beach-
I don't know you personally, and I've been more of a lurker here than anything else for the past few years so I apologize if I'm writing out of turn here, but... this post makes you sound like a bit of a fishing snob.
I don't see how there is any true difference between fishing for small fish or large. When you fish you are putting a hook in a fishes mouth. You very well MAY kill it. If you don't like that then don't fish.
You prefer to target big fish. You only fish at night, from mid-may blah blah blah...
Me, I like to fish. Period. I love the ocean and don't care if I catch a thing. I'm a huge supporter of conservation and release nearly all of the bass I catch, but come on don't tell me how to fish.

responsible = snob :huh:

i agree with everything BB said. there's always going to be some mortality from fishing, but we might as well try to limit it. catching schoolie after schoolie just really isn't worth it to alot of people. if you want to do it, at least use a single hook and crush the barb.

not being judgemental, just my own thing- i don't fish for dinks.

not being judgemental, just my own thing- i don't fish for dinks.

Okay. Just got defensive for a moment there...I'm over it.

if you want to do it, at least use a single hook and crush the barb.

Completely agree.

Fish is fish & to each their own (as long as they're being responsible).

If you do schoolie fish, please crush the barbs

If you target sea robins, record the croak..

I limit schoolie mortality by fishing for Tog early and late.:jump1:

Only time I target them in the late fall is if I want one for the grill. I use 90% single hook stuff like sluggos, jigs, Storms, spoons etc.. Usually stop fishing once I have a keeper in the cooler.

i target alot of schoolies during spring and fall.i use 1/2 bucktails with 4'' or 6'' curly tails barbs are always crushed on all my stuff.hooks are never deep and always released unharmed.on the other hand tried using the 4'' storms and stripers would suck them down pretty good.they have bigger hookss and sometimes were problems unhooking,i stopped using them completly.cocohoes and bass assisins with 1'2 lead heads easy to release.sometimes if a schoolie was hooked deeper would unclip lead head and work out of fishes gills to release safely.out of many fish would get an occisonal bleeder from gill nick and feel bad about it,a bleeder bass is a dead bass.then a few years ago john r poster up about ocean herring boats taking thousands of bass in nets as bycatch and throwing them dead back.so if i catch quite a few maybe 2 killed.all other bigger bass strickly c&r by me.

Back Beach-this post makes you sound like a bit of a fishing snob.

I don't see how there is any true difference between fishing for small fish or large. When you fish you are putting a hook in a fishes mouth.

Because there is a huge difference putting a single hook in the mouth of a few big fish, rather than standing there catching 50 12" bass, especially on treble hooks. I think bigger fish, handled well and fought quickly are more resilient to release than small bass. The bones and flesh inside the mouth and through it thicker, and tougher. Hooks do less damage. Anything down past the gullet, IMHO is a dead fish.

the upside if it is over 28" is I can take it home and eat it, rather than release it to float.

Mike is a humongous snob, for the record.

I don't see the sense in fighting dink fish to near death then releasing to 8lb blewfish.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Back Beach-
I don't know you personally, and I've been more of a lurker here than anything else for the past few years so I apologize if I'm writing out of turn here, but... this post makes you sound like a bit of a fishing snob.
I don't see how there is any true difference between fishing for small fish or large. When you fish you are putting a hook in a fishes mouth. You very well MAY kill it. If you don't like that then don't fish.
You prefer to target big fish. You only fish at night, from mid-may blah blah blah...
Me, I like to fish. Period. I love the ocean and don't care if I catch a thing. I'm a huge supporter of conservation and release nearly all of the bass I catch, but come on don't tell me how to fish.

I think with smaller fish its more likely you can get into big numbers of them and inflict damage on a greater number of fish. Past experience tells me this is true.

For many years I sometimes took dozens of small fish in a single outing using methods targeted at the small stuff. Despite utilizing less lethal methods(single hooks), I put back way too many bleeders for my own comfort, so I avoid numbers fishing for small fish nowadays. Just about all my fishing now is single hook fishing with larger stuff being the target... for whatever that's worth...the fish stocks are quite safe too as I'm lucky to catch a single fish for every three times out.

If targeting sea robins on topwater plugs makes me a snob, then I proudly pledge my allegiance to Numbskull Nation. :gh:

jkjnp - dont listen to these guys. Since you sold the boat and are now a surf guy you will only catch small fish from now on so get used to it. Backbeach, RIR, TT, only catch dinks so don't let them fool you. Thats why they fish at night so no one can see them giggling while they catch 14" fish.

Thats why they fish at night so no one can see them giggling while they catch 14" fish.


...or in my case nothing at all.

Thats why they fish at night so no one can see them giggling while they catch 14" fish.

I only giggle when my fishing partner for the night goes sliding around in the surf trying to land a 25lb fish... :smash: and then get so frustrated he bought a boat :buds:

ouch, I was hoping you forgot about that

Nobody targets the small fish yet you will never see as many people standing shoulder to shoulder on the beach as you will on a Friday , Sat or Sunday afternoon in Novemeber when the small bass are pushing the peanuts into the shore. Not even on the west wall in april will you see such a density of fisherman .

Anyway , I hope the post brings some awareness to the fact that many of these small fish die if caught , handled or released improperly.

besides the hook and lure choice , I also have seen the boot on the 12 inch bass to hold him still while de hooking and the football drop kick to get them back into the water.

Peo0ple traet these small fish like they are useless when in fact they are next years 20 inch fish and two tears from now they make a great meal.

As with any conservation minded effort , all you can do is try to make people aware and hope they think enough to at least try to save a few fish

If targeting sea robins on topwater plugs makes me a snob, then I proudly pledge my allegiance to Numbskull Nation. :gh:

:rotf2::rotf2::rotf2: Being a snob is only part of the requirement, you also have to move your potato to the front of your wetsuit.

:rotf2::rotf2::rotf2: Being a snob is only part of the requirement, you also have to move your potato to the front of your wetsuit.

Additionally, I've removed your priceless artwork from my avatar. It was(sea robin on top) truly a testament to greatness, but I cannot rightfully claim the work as my own. :want:

Yeah, there are plenty of posers out there, but I'm taking the high road. Maybe next year the almighty will smile upon my decision and send a large skate up through the water column in search of my parrot darter...and all will be forgiven.

OK OK, back to the original thread topic...

Eels on a single hook is the best defense against unwanted kills of small fish...either that or stay home. It's what I do.

Eels on a single hook is the best defense against unwanted kills of small fish...either that or stay home. It's what I do.

Actually, going fishing with Sauerkraut is the best defense against wanted or unwanted kills of any sized fish.

Eels in experienced hands probably have low mortality risk, but the learning curve takes its toll.

My sense is that plugs mutilate more fish than they directly kill.

Fishing in warm water has C&R mortality of 25-50% regardless of the technique used.

We all kill fish, and more than we think we do.

Short fight and no UL gear. Don't over-tire them- they become seal and blew food.

Single hooks. Don't poke their eyes out or rip their gills out with trebles.

Give them the lure if they are badly hooked. Don't remove gill rakers, lips or other vital parts.

Leave them in the water. Their bodies weren't meant to be hung vertically out of water. Nor were their jaws meant to be used as a handle.

Don't beach on sand or rocks. It removes their protective slime coat.

No pinwheeling through the air or bouncing down the rocks on their return trip to the sea. Scrambles their brains and innards.

Why don't you just leave the poor lil bastages alone?????????

why dont you just give up fishing?
better yet, show some sack, carry a big sign and picket the next striper cup where THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of pounds of breeder fish are killed?

I dont know why I'm defending dink fishing but this debate is ridiculous to me. So wise ones...what is the MAGIC size people should be fishing for? There are guys spending 5K to fly to some crap stream and catch some crap trout that is half the size of a schoolie! Why???? its fishing! Maybe stripes are too fragile and all of you should give it up? Go catch a mans fish like a tuna?

Go catch a mans fish like a tuna?

We talking giants or dinks ? ;)

I think with smaller fish its more likely you can get into big numbers of them and inflict damage on a greater number of fish. Past experience tells me this is true.

For many years I sometimes took dozens of small fish in a single outing using methods targeted at the small stuff. Despite utilizing less lethal methods(single hooks), I put back way too many bleeders for my own comfort, so I avoid numbers fishing for small fish nowadays. Just about all my fishing now is single hook fishing with larger stuff being the target... for whatever that's worth...the fish stocks are quite safe too as I'm lucky to catch a single fish for every three times out.

If targeting sea robins on topwater plugs makes me a snob, then I proudly pledge my allegiance to Numbskull Nation. :gh:

My apologies for calling you a snob...got a little fired up and probably over reacted. Just love to fish and had some fun catching dinks on Wednesday. All of the sudden I felt (in a different thread) like I should feel bad the fact that I enjoy watching fish blitz and catching a few. So I got a bit defensive when I felt like you were telling me how to fish. Anyway, it's Friday. Thank god.