This Doctor from URI spoke on Narragnsett Bay and on Stripers. His research and the studies of his colleages was enlightening.

It seems that the YOY Bass index is directly corrolated to the amount of rain Pennsylvania gets. I am not kidding. It all has to do with the amount of run off that enters the Chesapeake. The more fresh water, the more food there is for the small fry.

Also had some interesting insight to the menhaden population fluxuations. It seems that there is this weather anomoly called the NAO. the North Atlantic Oscillation and it directly affects the Menhaden population. It's too long to explain here but it was really interesting and, for the first time, I could really understand the relationship between weather and fish populations.

The following site can explain it in much more detail.

Welcome to the North Atlantic Oscillation www-page (http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/pi/NAO/)

who was the professor?

Not sure if I'm reading this right but from the meetings I've been to on this topic. When Pennsylvania gets heavy rain in the Susquehanna basin this washes large amounts of nitrogent and phosphorus from fertilizers into the bay. This increase in nitrogent and phosphorus, called "nutrients", causing algal blooms which reduces sunlight in the water causing a reduction in the amount of oxygen in the water. This reduction in oxygen causes fish kills and reduces the amount of plant life. You will often see posting about dead zones in the Chesapeake caused lack of oxygen. Often getting worse in the summer as temperature also comes into play.

One problem being that the seasonal rains and heavy fertilizer use both occur in the spring. Since 1987 this has been a focus area for bay protection. Actions such as bans on detergents with phosphorus in them and improved sewage treatment are helping but it is still a big issue.

I read that a menhaden can filter the phytoplankton in up to five gallons of water a minute. This helps prevent algae blooms.
The clearer water means sunlight can penetrate deeper which promotes the growth of oxygen producing plants.

According to the U.S. Department of Commerce fishery statistics, Omega protein landed 1.5 BILLION pounds of menhaden in 2007.

Thats a lot of water clearing biomass removed.

Menhaden is used for health supplements, fertilizer,animal feed,lipstick and industrial lubricants.

Connect the dots, it's not good for the bass.

Menhaden help put oxygen in their nursery and provide their natural perfect food.

Last spring I was catching high 40 inch fish in skinny water on 12# test outfits. They pretty much were one run and done. Poor anorexic fish had no fight in them. That is not the way it should be. There may be many but their overall health sucks. Refugee fish, we as a group so much miss the bigger picture on this. It would take a miracle to cure all the issues this fish is about face. Too bad, for we are Legion, and could be heard.
:doh:

Interesting - I remember that same theory coming to light when the stocks started to tank in the late 70s early 80s.

Another theory at the time was sun spot activity.

DZ

I read that a menhaden can filter the phytoplankton in up to five gallons of water a minute. This helps prevent algae blooms. The clearer water means sunlight can penetrate deeper which promotes the growth of oxygen producing plants.

The speaker was David Bengtson, nice guy and knows his stuff!

As far as the other stuff, if you dig into the science behind the filtering claim, it turns out adult (the size that are captured commercially) filter large plankton (i.e. zooplankton) the small algae and phytoplankton pass right through their gill rakers... so this argument is not really accurate... Google Seagrant Menhaden symposium, there is a lot of info in that report. I'm not sure on the science for this next line, as it comes from my head, BUT there is a leap there that if there is a ton of pogies, eating all the zoo plankton, then there are less of them to prey on the algae and phytoplankton, and maybe you'd still have low-oxygen events and such.

that being said, I am 100% Omega and the reduction boats catching billions of lbs/year... but putting the devil moniker on the bait boats probably isn't that fair, especially when they are catching a targeted, monitored quota like they do in RI

Paul,
NAO is a cycle (or a quasi-cycle) not an anomaly...
we can have long chats about it at some point. it doesn't just impact fisheries. But I bet it also has a huge impact on fish that spawn offshore and then migrate inshore i.e. pogies!

I'm with DZ and others...Back in the early 80's there was "direct proof" that heavy rain in the upper chesapeake bay region would cause run off from farmlands that contributed to fish kills. This problem was largely addressed as an element to the moratorium if I remember correctly. I recall that farms had to install protection so that runoff directly into the water was avoided.

Now they are saying heavy rain contributes to the population? Hmmm. I would question that. We had a hell of a lot of rain last year and the YOY index was no record breaker.

Digging a little deeper into the science I found this note, in a report to the VMRC by Drs Nathan Smith and Cynthia Jones, regarding isotope values in Menhaden.
" Previous studies of menhaden diet based on stomach contents indicated phytoplanktivory, but while they may consume phytoplankton, zooplankton may be much more important than previously reported"

Seems to me I must have read a previous study.
Ahh, more nebulosity.
I will get my shovel and dig some more.:confused:

Goes both ways I guess Makai. The way I read that quote is that the may consume some phytoplankton, BUt they eat a lot more zooplankton....

My point is not lets remove all the pogies and save the plankton, but rather lets not promote false claims.... in a local example, if ArkBait had not removed 1 pogy from Narragansett bay in 2004, there still would have been a fish kill in Greenwich Bay.

Understood, I guess I should not trust what I read anymore and question everything, frustrating.

question everything, frustrating.

Bingo.
when I read something, I try to think about who the authors are, where they worked, how they did the study, what did they conclude and why do you care. An additional 'Who' is to look into who funded the work! works in geology, and in the little bit of bio0logy I understand

Take a look at pew charitable trust's biggest funders. You see them pointing the finger at fisheries but you don't see them saying boo about the problems that oil rigs bring to the emviroment.
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Grrrr.
The truth is harder to find than first assumed,I should go ask my Mom if she really is.

I read that a menhaden can filter the phytoplankton in up to five gallons of water a minute. This helps prevent algae blooms.
The clearer water means sunlight can penetrate deeper which promotes the growth of oxygen producing plants.



Living algae, like all plants also produces oxygen during photosynthesis, it only consumes oxygen (again like all plants) when it dies and begins to decompose.

If a truth is going to cost money or impact a group negatively, the findings will be discounted by that group as being motivated by an agenda. One day we'll find that we dismissed science at our peril.

Sorry guys, I cannot remember everything about the rain runoff but it has to do with an area in the estuaries where the bass fry stage and grow. The more rain or fresh water the further us the estuarie and thus less saltwater and food. The discussion got very technical at that point in regard to turbidity of the water due to the salt content etc.

It was just a real interesting take on the Bass population. The one thing the Dr. did say when asked if the bass fishing will get better or worse he said that it will get worse and this year will not be as good as last year or any of the previous years back to 2003.

Bryan, thnaks for the correction on the NAO. Cycle vs. anomoly is certainly a big difference.

...It was just a real interesting take on the Bass population. The one thing the Dr. did say when asked if the bass fishing will get better or worse he said that it will get worse and this year will not be as good as last year or any of the previous years back to 2003...


Well, that's good to know - now I can stop futzing around in my tackle room for hours on end and find something else useful to do...:mad:

The part about rain volume, has more to do with good current flow, and optimal spanwing (egg-laying) conditions and stability in the river during the spawming period, and less to do with run-off (pollution).

If you think about it more rain would also dilute fertilizer and chemical run off and push more volume further in the bay, etc. A small amount of rain (snow melt) would give much more concentrated "polluted" water, slower flow, which in turn causes increased plant (algea) growth come spring and more sun. That causes more problems as previously stated.
It is a complex web of interconnected variables.

I would swear that theory is directly opposite of the reasoning in the prior days. IMO it is this kind of "science" that ruins their credibility. :wall: Do they make this stuff up as they go?

Now I believe even less of what they say.:confused:

Having my curiosity piqued. And following RIROCKHOUND's thoughts about following reasons for study, I just printed 7 reports on Menhaden research. Went through a lot of paper. I tried to get biased and neutral points of view. From save the bay, Omegas own funded research, woods hole, rutgers university and even the book The most important fish in the sea, and a few others.
With highlighter in hand I will glean what I can and see if I can find an answer to my simple question.

How much of an affect do Menhaden have on water clarity and or quality ?

At first quick glance they do not draw the same conclusions, I am not surprised.

Oh my Mom says she is my Mom and I need to get a life, I'm too old to be strange.

Having my curiosity piqued. And following RIROCKHOUND's thoughts about following reasons for study, I just printed 7 reports on Menhaden research. Went through a lot of paper. I tried to get biased and neutral points of view. From save the bay, Omegas own funded research, woods hole, rutgers university and even the book The most important fish in the sea, and a few others.
With highlighter in hand I will glean what I can and see if I can find an answer to my simple question.

How much of an affect do Menhaden have on water clarity and or quality ?

At first quick glance they do not draw the same conclusions, I am not surprised.

Oh my Mom says she is my Mom and I need to get a life, I'm too old to be strange.

And you can't go salmonid hunting with me this week, why?

And you can't go salmonid hunting with me this week, why?

below zero wind chills sat and sun
what time do you want me to pick you up?

Dave Bengsten is a great professor. He taught my Marine FinFish course at URI.

1.5 BILLION pounds of pogies reported for Omega's 2007 catch...:hs:

Combine that with the take of other forage by the herring fleet and squid boats - so is it any wonder that the inshore fishery appears to be in tough shape

humus levels in the soil can take a decade to create
via micro-bacterial action... but only a few years if the
earthworm population is encouraged as the excrement from worms is the fast method of producing it.

HUMUS will hold ten times its weight of water but when you
don't farm organically...and by that i mean ...your not tilling in
tons of organic matter for the worms to eat and convert to humus....

you basically have a potential "run off " situation because chemical
fertilizers do not add any organic matter to the soil at all .

part of the problem is the continued practice of monoculture
which is increasing the use of both pesticides and herbicides
that also enter the ecosystem.

This idea has been around for 5-6 years I believe. Chesapeake Bay Journal: Whether a fish has a hot spawning season may depend on weather - October 2004 (http://www.bayjournal.com/article.cfm?article=2381)

Whether it has held up over the last several years is unclear to me.

Eben, I think you miss Pew's focus. They understand that environmental degradation has impacted world fisheries. They, however, also understand that industrial ( and sometimes recreational) fishing is putting a toll on the remaining fish that is not sustainable. Their priority is to stop that in order to buy time to improve the environment. Makes pretty good sense if you don't have a stake in the fishing.

Another good example is the CLF. The towns on the south shore of the cape have severely polluted the salt ponds that feed Vineyard Sound. This has been known for years, and nobody has done anything because of the cost. Instead towns keep announcing "studies" and delaying the expensive fix. This fall the CLF came through and made it clear that if the fix does not start VERY soon, they will file suit. Pissed everyone off, and all kinds of moaning about how that would "not help anything", but in fact it has helped and towns are now starting to move.

There is a lesson in that for us fisherman. Clean up our act now, or have a judge do it for us. I suspect the latter is where we are headed.

There is a lesson in that for us fisherman. Clean up our act now, or have a judge do it for us. I suspect the latter is where we are headed.

Especially as everyone plays the "it's not our fault" or "how is that fair" game.

Thanks for the post. The article was an interesting read and I didn't know much about the pollution issues in the South Cape area.

This idea has been around for 5-6 years I believe. Chesapeake Bay Journal: Whether a fish has a hot spawning season may depend on weather - October 2004 (http://www.bayjournal.com/article.cfm?article=2381)

Whether it has held up over the last several years is unclear to me.

They, however, also understand that industrial ( and sometimes recreational) fishing is putting a toll on the remaining fish that is not sustainable.

There are a load of scientist out there, who haven't received PEW grant money, that would unequivocally disagree with that statement. We also have big federal and state bureaucracies, dedicated to making sure that doesn't happen. But I guess PEW knows better than everyone else?

Gentlemen, the point is being missed. This is not about pollution runoff. It's about freshwater vs saltwater and the ratios between the 2. The more of 1, the less fry survival there is due to less food due to the turbidity of the water.

I just don't have the facts the way the speaker presented them but I do know that there was no mention of fertilizer, pollution or their effects on the fish spawn or survival.

I now wish I had access to the good Doctors notes and PowerPoint presentation.

Wish I had seen it. IIRC Some of the bad years for fry were the drought and flood years having real bad YOY indices.

Anyway, wish I had seen it.


Hey Bryan, I thought scientists were supposed to be like Joe Friday, no bias :rotf2: , unswappable, just the facts mam :buds:

Wish I had seen it. IIRC Some of the bad years for fry were the drought and flood years having real bad YOY indices.

Anyway, wish I had seen it.


Hey Bryan, I thought scientists were supposed to be like Joe Friday, no bias :rotf2: , unswappable, just the facts mam :buds:

Supposed to be my friend, but not everyone is as ethical as I am :smash:

A case of "If I hadn't of believed it I wouldn't have seen it"?

Actually, the science is typically ok. As long as your observations are correct and your data collection is as good as it can be, it often boils down to differing interpretations. The main issue is usually with groups that interpret the interpretations, not with the scientists themselves!

I have my problems with this so called science. Good science leaves little ambiguity, it should be definitive. At a minimum if a proper error analysis could be done you should hear we are 93.4% confident this is the cause....but you don't. Error analysis cant be done because there are too many inaccurate parameters. (How many fish are there, how many were caught, released, died of natural causes, how many fishermen are there and how often they actually catch fish etc) I think this rec lic was intended to be a step to help quantifying these parameters but it will take a long time to resolving this IMO.

The fact is at one time excess rain was the problem in the 80's now it is part of the solution it seems. This effects your credibility anyway you look at it.

So, what we have today is a educated guesstimate which is being labeled "the best science". I am an engineer not a scientist and even I find this insulting. This is not science. Where did they get these guys?

The proper thing to do is until we KNOW with say 95% confidence that XXXX is the problem is to err on the side of conservation and the fishery dept's are simply not doing this. If this means a if a cut back of 50%, stopping comm fishing, or a complete shut down is needed to INSURE the future, fine, do it, TAKE ACTION. What we have is a chubby old man (Diodati) driving the fishery bus by looking in the rear view mirror, telling everyone don't worry what the spawn was good 10 years ago while his engine is ablaze and he is headed into a brick wall.

Its not Diodotis call, its the ASMFC's call...

Further more that guy has forgotten more about the Striped Bass than any of us will ever know!

He is no friend of the SB does and does not have conservative bone in his body. He is a puppet. If he isn't forced to do something, he doesn't . He supports commercial SB fishing in MA because it is an "Historical fishery" same goes for why RI's get to comm fish in MA . I asked him face to face.

Further more that guy has forgotten more about the Striped Bass than any of us will ever know!

Unfortunately, he seems to have done that on purpose.

I would like to see some information on survival of the last several YOY classes. My impression is that the number of small fish has declined drastically over just two years. Yes we hear story after story about acres of bass offshore, but these seem to be primarily large fish.

Where are the next generation people hope to target in years to come?
I suspect they are gone, victims of mycobacteriosis perhaps. I think the drastic decline in recreational catch numbers (not poundage) reflects this.

I doubt Mr Diodati will consider that, however.

Actually i had a converstaion with him the other day that was quite to the contrary....but u guys think what you want...u still hate the commercial fishery it has nothing to do with Paul or YOY! U have some inbred hatred for commercial fishng..do you hate yourselves for doing it in the 60's and 70's when the limit was 16" and you killed everything to pay for your beer? I pay a a lot of my actual bills thru the commercial use of the bass...really when it comes down to it I believe we will all see a reduction in the next couple of years and with that we will probably see limit entry or catch share programs...

Nobody "Hates the commercial fishery". What we hate is the continued pressure from commercial AND recreational special interest groups to keep on killing as many striped bass as we can twist the science to justify.

Catch rates in numbers of fish is plummeting.
Small fish have disappeared.
Blame recreational fishermen, commercial fishermen, seals, or bacteria, it doesn't matter......something is obviously wrong even if you chose not to see it.
Something should change, but it won't.....not with people like Mr Diodati pulling the strings.
Maybe we'll get a great year class and it will save us yet again.
Counting on that while the remaining large fish are slaughtered does not strike me as a prudent fishery management plan.

I don't hate anyone and I respect your views. I have a comm lic myself! I actually support R&R comm fishing as it is more ethical then draggers in the sound who dump discard. What I don't like is the way it has been/ and is being managed. You yourself admit things will get worse, yet you still want to exploit them commercially for personal gain...and you call me a bad guy???

It's been mismanaged (on many fronts) for so long now I think we have to take a reduction...something like 1 fish for recs and no comm fishing (IMO) as a minimum.

The only reason he spoke out against the gamefish bill is it takes HIM out of the managing loop. This would no doubt help the fish and dethrone him. Of course he would say it was a bad idea, what would you expect? He can not be objective, he is a puppet for the commercial fisherman's interest. Your in good hands.

I don't want to get involved with the comms vs, the recs. What I do have is a very strong opinion about the the rec limits. 2 fish, 28" is contributing to the down turn in the bass fishery.
I lived through the moritorium. I lived through 1 fish 34", then 1 fish 36". The bass came back. One fish a day is enough.

The charter guys take 6 guys out and everyone limits out. That's 12 fish not counting the mate and the captain. The charters go 6 or 7 days a week.

Do the math. One boat could kill 250 to 300 fish a month. That number times all that charters in Mass and RI and all the recreational boat fishermen and the recreational surfishermen and ...well just do the math. The commercial guys are NOT the problem.

A one fish limit would go a long way toward more fish and bigger fish. I often hear the argument that many guys cannot catch a 36" fish. Tough *&^%. Learn how to be a good fisherman and you will catch bigger fish. There use to be a saying in the surf crowd about putting your time in. Now everyone wants instant gratification and the 28" size lends itself to that very thing.

Personally, I don't kill many fish anymore. If I do, it has to be over 20# which is 36".

But then again what the hell do I know. I've only been chasing these fish for 43 years.

Guys thank you for your honest remarks! I have no doubt about your passion for this fish...I do agree that if we don't see some recruiting pretty soon than the ASMFC will contract on the quotas a bit to help curb anything catestrophic from happenning. I also would put this on the table as well, if they ever stopped commercial bass and then cut the rec take to one a day...and the YOY index did not come back...would you still blame management or would you start to be lieve that more biological issues are causing the lack of fish? I still have not seen this down turn, but I don't target schoolies I target keeper sized fish for my charters and obviously commercial sized fish...I do surf fish on some southern facing beaches in May and June and found plenty of fish there all last spring, maybe I just got lucky! Doug

there are probably 10 times as many people fishing for stripers now than when the limit was 1@34..... So even if the take limit was reduced to 1 a day, more would be killed than in the late 80's...
Sad
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Thanks, Piemma, for your thoughts.....I think most boat/surf fishermen don't realize that when the numbers mentioned by ASMFC for recreational catches are mentioned, that the charter industry is probaly the major factor for that increase. When you look up and down the Coast, and tabulate the number of charter boats chasing bass, it becomes pretty clear where the fish are going. In Connecticut, New York, RI, for instance, even head boats fish for stripers (probaly NJ, also)....a lot of 6-pack captains do double trips (AM, late afteroon, evenings). There is nothing wrong with what they are doing-they are making a living, and I don't begrudge them. As an R&R commercial fisherman, it bothers me to hear the same old rant, that it is the commercial fisherman that is ruining the striped bass fishery. It simply is not true....there is a coast wide quota limit that is set for each state that allows it-the quota hasn't changed in several years....
I think because other fisheries (cod, tautog, fluke, flounder, tunoids) have stringent quotas, or aren't as prevalent as before, that there is a lot of pressure on the bass, because of their abundance.....Back in the bass crash of the late 70's, very few charter boats fished for bass (it was hard work then)...bluefish and tuna got most of the pressure.
Anyways, hope my comments add a little food for thought....

..Thank you both!...Piemma and jmac.....on another issue........rumore has it in RI..discussed at length to.... if MA bans out of state com fisherman(i.e.RI)--MA menhaden, and other com fisheries would be denied access to that state(RI)...hey, what do I know......been fishing stripers(recreational, several years chartering, guiding, and commercial) for over 45 years.....

if the bass stocks are in trouble as some say,i am curouis how reducing the numbers caught will increase the numbers of future bass. i do not buy that the more fish thererare the greater the chances of more bass.if conditions are right it doesn't take a huge number of breeders to create a new class of fish.i am no scientist, but have spent a good part of my 54 years working and playing on the water.basically overfishing takes place when a species no longer can reproduce to replenish what is being taken.you want more fish figure out why they aren't reproducing.

if the bass stocks are in trouble as some say,i am curouis how reducing the numbers caught will increase the numbers of future bass. i do not buy that the more fish thererare the greater the chances of more bass.if conditions are right it doesn't take a huge number of breeders to create a new class of fish.i am no scientist, but have spent a good part of my 54 years working and playing on the water.basically overfishing takes place when a species no longer can reproduce to replenish what is being taken.you want more fish figure out why they aren't reproducing.

Really? You don't see how if less fish are killed, then there will be more fish in the sea?

if the bass stocks are in trouble as some say,i am curouis how reducing the numbers caught will increase the numbers of future bass. i do not buy that the more fish thererare the greater the chances of more bass.if conditions are right it doesn't take a huge number of breeders to create a new class of fish.i am no scientist, but have spent a good part of my 54 years working and playing on the water.basically overfishing takes place when a species no longer can reproduce to replenish what is being taken.you want more fish figure out why they aren't reproducing.

Without being a wiseass I must state that I find your argument to be without foundation.

Of course if you have fewer fish then you have fewer fish breeding so you have fewer new fish. Simple equation

Actually, there is some truth to what he says. It does not take very many fish to have a successful YOY class if conditions are right, and I believe that genetic studies have shown that big YOY classes may be the result of several hundred fish spawning successfully in one small area. Presumably this is what "saved" the fishery back in the early 90's. On the other hand those few hundred fish are typically from the same school and are prone to being wiped out quite easily by intense focused fishing effort.....which is the norm these days when the remaining fish are located. The fewer schools, the less the chance one group hits it big.

His argument also overlooks the toll natural mortality takes on fish. There where loads of small fish everywhere 3 years ago. Coincident with the mycobacteriosis epidemic they seem to have disappeared. If natural mortality goes way up, fishing mortality has to go way down or the number of fish plummets quickly.

Paul,i guess i don't have a foundation for my argument,but as George mentioned the bass did rebound when the numbers were at all time lows.in my many years of digging clams i have seen areas that were barren of clams,a few chowders here and there ,turn in to some of the most productive areas. look at narraganset bay in the early 80's. the indian river in Florida 83.it didn't take many clams to turn an empty bottom into a bonanza.i also saw how an entire set of clams die when the army corp opened the flood gates on the river.of course the clammers were blamed for raping the river.i guess being an uneducated ,greedy drunken commercial i can't see what is in front of me. i have only been surf fishing 13 years ,i am seeing and catching more fish than ever before. i fish both LI and Cape cod.many of the guys i know who are not internet heroes are also having banner years from delaware to the mass border. sure some of the traditional areas are not producing for some , but a lot of other out of the way areas and not well know are producing.working in a tackle shop i get tired of people complaining how bad fishing is,when if they walked a little they would be on fish big time.just because they aren't were you caught them in the past doesn't mean they are gone.

Hey Bryan, I thought scientists were supposed to be like Joe Friday, no bias :rotf2: , unswappable, just the facts mam :buds:

it seems the facts tend to lead towards the direction from which the funds flow.

a few years ago ct sprayed for mosquitos and a bunch of lobsters died.

ct asked uconn (no conflict of interest there!) to investigate

preliminary findings were inconclusive.

uconn applied for a grant (from ct) for further study

study completed, still inconclusive to spraying but found an amoebic parasite that eats lobster nerves, but, only in a weakened state. healthy lobs are not affected.

the study , however, just could not come up with what weakened the bugs.

how hard did they look?????

ya want to get funded next time?????

Paul,i guess i don't have a foundation for my argument,but as George mentioned the bass did rebound when the numbers were at all time lows.in my many years of digging clams i have seen areas that were barren of clams,a few chowders here and there ,turn in to some of the most productive areas. look at narraganset bay in the early 80's. the indian river in Florida 83.it didn't take many clams to turn an empty bottom into a bonanza.i also saw how an entire set of clams die when the army corp opened the flood gates on the river.of course the clammers were blamed for raping the river.i guess being an uneducated ,greedy drunken commercial i can't see what is in front of me. i have only been surf fishing 13 years ,i am seeing and catching more fish than ever before. i fish both LI and Cape cod.many of the guys i know who are not internet heroes are also having banner years from delaware to the mass border. sure some of the traditional areas are not producing for some , but a lot of other out of the way areas and not well know are producing.working in a tackle shop i get tired of people complaining how bad fishing is,when if they walked a little they would be on fish big time.just because they aren't were you caught them in the past doesn't mean they are gone.

I, in no way, meant to minimize your statement or contribution to this thread.

In my opinion (and I should have stated that beforehand) I think that an increase in size and a decrease in bag limit will help the Bass population. But that's just my opinion.
Now I tend to agree with you about having a good year last year. I, too, had a great year in the boat and in the Canal in the Fall. However, if you talk to Joe P, John Lee (Goosefish), RIRockhound and Eben, you will hear a dramatically different story. Even Steve Mc Kenna, a true high hook, will tell you that last year was one of their worst years for fish in general, both quality and quantity.

So who know what the answer is. One thing is certain: "Time will tell".

McKenna told me that the last 2 years were worse for him than durring the moratorium years!!!
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People have bad years, i have seen it in the tuna world...

People have bad years, i have seen it in the tuna world...

I would agree with you if the subject wasn't Steve McKenna.

Steve is an elite Striperman. Written tons of articles. Practically invented the loaded, rigged Sluggo and fishes 120 nights a year from the Block to Cutty to Narragansett and everywhere in between. If last year was as bad as he says, then there is a probelm.

I would agree with you if the subject wasn't Steve McKenna.

... If last year was as bad as he says, then there is a probelm.

Bingo

That's the very first thing I thought when I read your previous post this morning, Paul

As in anything else, consider the source first - and Steve's credentials on the issue are impeccable, IMNSHO

It also echos the conversation I had a few nights ago with a well-known inshore charter guide whose opinion I respect

Ultimately, that's the beauty of the Interblab on important issues - people are whomever they claim to be and you end up with large chunks of unsubstantiated opinion mixed with the excitement of typing...:doh:

In the end it's like the blind men trying to describe an elephant

Along similar lines is the argument..."The fish are around, you just have to work harder." No S&^%$, really? If you have to work harder to find them, than by default, there ARE less fish.

idiots. :wall:

I had no idea my innocent little thread on a Professor's presentation would draw so many good thoughts.

Regardless of who agrees or disagrees these forums are good because they foster dialog about something we all share and care about.

I have my problems with this so called science. Good science leaves little ambiguity, it should be definitive. At a minimum if a proper error analysis could be done you should hear we are 93.4% confident this is the cause....but you don't. Error analysis cant be done because there are too many inaccurate parameters. (How many fish are there, how many were caught, released, died of natural causes, how many fishermen are there and how often they actually catch fish etc) I think this rec lic was intended to be a step to help quantifying these parameters but it will take a long time to resolving this IMO.

The fact is at one time excess rain was the problem in the 80's now it is part of the solution it seems. This effects your credibility anyway you look at it.

So, what we have today is a educated guesstimate which is being labeled "the best science". I am an engineer not a scientist and even I find this insulting. This is not science. Where did they get these guys?

The proper thing to do is until we KNOW with say 95% confidence that XXXX is the problem is to err on the side of conservation and the fishery dept's are simply not doing this. If this means a if a cut back of 50%, stopping comm fishing, or a complete shut down is needed to INSURE the future, fine, do it, TAKE ACTION. What we have is a chubby old man (Diodati) driving the fishery bus by looking in the rear view mirror, telling everyone don't worry what the spawn was good 10 years ago while his engine is ablaze and he is headed into a brick wall.

To a large extent I agree with you when you say that fisheries science isn't hard science. But I disagree when you say that they can't come up with a confidence level. They do it all the time, but you have to dig down to the Science and statistical committee on the federal level or the Technical committee at the ASMFC level to find that data. Several years ago the NMFS lost a suit by the Environmental defense fund because the Probability (confidence level) that the recommended TAC would achieve the rebuilding target was less than 50%. After that every year the NMFS selects a TAC that has a greater than 50% probability of achieving the rebuilding target. But Probabilities and confidence levels are statistical tools, they are no substitute for better science than we have now in fisheries management.

McKenna told me that the last 2 years were worse for him than durring the moratorium years!!!
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Some people are a creature of habbit, certain people wiegh in fish and you know exactly where they are caught, some fish the same spots, year after year... ADAPT!

I have the most respect for Steve, even had the pleasure of fishing with him years ago on Block.... I may be wrong but I dont think he even fished nearly as much these past two years as he has in the past....

How was Narragansett bay late May early June this past year? Many of the coms were doing 50 plus fish a trip, fighting through that many smaller fish to get their legal fish. There were Pogies everywhere as where the Bass. What happened when the netters decimated the Pogies and after al the heavy rain we had. The Pogies disapeared, as did the bass...

If I commercially fished where I caught my limits in say 05, 06, 07 in 08 and 09 I would have packed it in and called it quits... Patterns change, sometimes every year, every other year, every two years, every five, every decade, or so on...

Point is you can fish the same areas year after year and hope that the fish come to you, but if you want to consistantly catch you gotta go to the fish..... I have to admit, I am not the least sorry for those guys that bitch about the driving or walking... They want the fish in their back yard... Im sorry, but sometime Its called laziness.... Like I really enjoy sleepin in my truck 4, 7, 10, 14, 18 days .. Did it off the surf and do it now, off the boat... How about the bait runs.... Its more work getting bait nowadays vs the fishing! I used to laugh when the guys bitched about how long and a horrible walk Napatree is, Or guys fishing the Back beaches on the cape, But only where they can drive in missing the suicidal bites 1/4, 1/2, 1 mile down the beach... There is hundreds of miles of coastline where you can catch a fish on any given day... Im sorry, I hate it too, but it may require some driving or some walking!


We had some of the best years go by us these last few, some would say they were the worst for them...

Has block Island ever returned to what it was in the 80's in the late fall, November?? NO...Just talk to Dennis Zambrotta, Al Pelini, and so on ... But the summers have been spectacular...

Has the Cape returned to what it was just a decade ago? NO and probably wont for some time... Talk to some of the Best there Like Tony Stetzko... I just talked to him the other day... He knows where the fish are.. OFFSHORE. I would love to go back to the surf on the cape and have the fishing we used to have. We talked about what variables you had then, and what we have now.. Heck what bait did they have in the surf when they had all those big bodies of fish in the 80's...

I spoke with DJ Muller a few days ago... He had a great season off the Surf, from NJ to MV... Had a great fall down here off the NJ Coast...

We used to enjoy a great fishery here in NJ all summer long, I used to head out any given night and bail fish with rigged eels off Jetty country... Also not a soul in site.... July, Aug, and Sept. Its a thing of the past, has been for about 15 years... Our late falls, November and December were legendary, The tip of the hook produced some monsters, guys from LI would come to the hook... It never came back, in almost 30 years... Funny, you can ask most of the surfrats in NJ if the fishing is in decline and they will look at you as if you are Crazy, just look at whats wieghed in NJ in the Spring, they had the best few springs ever...

Ahh.... What about Oregon Inlet, NC, in December, January... Geez, those beach runs to Hatteras were awesome... What happened the last few years??? didnt happen to have anything to do with sub 40 degree surf temps and no bait... Can you imagine, the bodies of bait and fish 30+ Miles OFFSHORE of NC VA?? Who would to think?? Surfcasters can stay on the sand and huff and puff.... Cant change mother nature, no matter what....

The surf runs have been bad in the summer and fall in Rhode island and Mass, but the surf runs have been the best ever here off the NJ coast the last 4 year or so, accounting for some real pigs... was the other way around just 5,6,7,8,9 years ago....

We can debate this all you want... Surf Books had Striped Bass as the 1000 Hour fish... People have gotten spoiled, striped bass has been so commercialized and so many more people are fishing now than before. They expect to catch every time they go out...Some people bitchin, are the ones that did articles on exact spots, commercialized and wrote about their techniques and so on... I gotta tell you, sometimes you have to change more than just where you fish but also how you fish.... seen it from the West Jetty of Moriches, Block, Vineyard, Cutty, Napatree, Watch Hill, I can go on.

My local area we had a boom of charter Captains, not that Im an old timer or anything, just that not to long ago anybody good get a boat, charter, and make some $$$... I like a challenge, I want it tough, maybe gets some people off the water..... Everybody seems to want it easy... There are way more surf fishermen, charter captains, boat fisherman tageting striped bass than just 10 years ago.... Guess we need to settle back to reality, we are sharing these fish with way more people..

The Giant Bluefin never returned off the Jersey Coast, whos Bitchin'??

What about the whiting off the surf, the cod???

Im done wasting a single other minute on these boards listening to people crying over how bad the fishing is and where the fish are and blah, blah...

Steve mckenna may have had is worst year ever, but many had their best.....

Funny how when there is no fish around I, and others I know, could still average 600 plus pounds a commercial day??? I could put clients on my boat and the fish are stacked and they wont get a hit, sometimes the smallest thing could make a difference, and they want get a touch until something is pointed out...point is when its tough not everyone can catch.... The comm guys from the vineyard said that this was the best com season they ever had... What about all the weight that came in from cape cod this year??

The Same Surf Guys were succesfull this year and every year, Why???? This year might not have been as "Easy" as years past and they had to adapt, travel, to be succesfull....

I know there is no fish.... Give up, quit fishing...Its Fishing, not Catching... requires some work and effort... One of the worst things that gets my blood boiling is a miserable, negative attitude - It accounts for zero or minimal success....

Sometimes you cant fight mother nature... How are you going to bring fish up on the beach if there is no bait???? Seems the majority of the people complaining are surfcasters, primarily in Mass and RI, because the fish are not on the beach like they were some years. Everyday cant be like cutty this past June.. Those big bodies of fish need the bait to sustain them.... As far as this armegedon of striped bass, Maybe 12-21-12 the last striped bass will be caught??? There is way to much Gloom and Doom on this board....

I just dont think The McKenna Barometer means the end is near.... PANIC!

I think it is foolish to deny there are less fish when COASTWIDE the recreational catch number is 1/3 of what it was 2 years ago.

Remember, a large percentage of that recreational number is made up of professional charter catch. Subtract that and you can easily see why us average schmuck recreational fisherman are not particularly happy.

Sure if we quit our jobs, ignore our family, trailer a rig hundreds of miles, fish bait guided by electronics and cellphone contacts we could do well.......but that is not why most of us fish, nor what many of us consider fishing. Too bad for us, it appears.

Too bad so many of you are so self impressed and so distrusting of anyone you don't know, or worse yet, understand. Engineers, with no scientific training, calling out professional scientists who have spent countless hours in the field doing research in the hopes of understanding the plight of the striped bass. Sad.

Too bad others here see the solution as simple as taking up new arms or moving to greener pastures to continue killing once the fish are no longer able to be killed in historically lucrative waters. Pathetic.

Too bad folks post on here hoping to enlighten others to possible factors affecting the fish we all love, only to have their well intentioned act turned into a bitchandblame fest amongst fools. Shameful.

Until every single striper catcher accepts that they own a share in the issue there will be no hope for recovery of the bass.

But fear not, the government will step in and shut down fishing, and lock us all out, in order to save the species. Let's hope it doesn't become a permanent lock out. I'd like to go surfcasting for stripers with my grandchildren in 20 years.

,,,,,,,,,no hard poundage cap on recs................and..Pew style foundations monies will solve the problem.....for all of us + the fish......."yes my son, when I was your age we fished here-now a MPA-several years back the recs & com stired up such a high level of controversy-the foundation monies lobbied the closure under the guise of conservation"...........@#$%^&*()+#$% it! I'm go'n fish'n..........stealth :)......

are we or are we not
confusing the spawns??

as i understand it~~~
the majority of the MA, RI migratory feesh come from
the Hudson River stock, no??

so how would rain, pollution, in CHSPKE Bay
affect our spawn/YOY index? positively or negatively?
additionally, could these be the racers that get mixed in
with the run of COWS these past coupla yrs in shore and that have been gettin' hammered off shore?

also, as i understand it~~~
the mycobact. problems, while not exclusive to the OBX,
is it not the most prevalent there? hence, the lack of
flesh-pocked stripers that i've YET to sea in only 4 years.

from what i've read~~~
we must be more concerned about the
non-consumption of many of our stripers, since
the Hudson River is loaded w/ PCB's and pharmaceuticals??

lastly~~~
while last year was SLOW and WHACKY for me, personally,
others i've talked with and know did well, right around the cove,
up the river, or two beaches down from me ALL season!! also, i ran into Schoolies and cookie cutter nights that ranged from 16"- 32" and many sizes in between. the only thing i did miss, at my usual known producers was the BIG GURLS. and there was a serious lack of BAIT!

so what can i glean from all of this? gonna bang the surf HARD again in 2010, like it was my job. i will still fish the tournies i always fish. i will hopefully get to put my nephews and daughter on some decent fish at some point this summer. i will endeavor to fish with more of YOU momma jahmoaks!!! WHY? because this is the most effin' FUN and CHALLENGE i can find that's legit and gets me outta tha house, and youse guys are pretty cool to hang out with once you step away from the keyboards and wet a line to chase our beloved prey.

FISH AWWWN, soon enough gents,,,,,,,,,,,,FISH AWN!

Actually, there is some truth to what he says. It does not take very many fish to have a successful YOY class if conditions are right, and I believe that genetic studies have shown that big YOY classes may be the result of several hundred fish spawning successfully in one small area. Presumably this is what "saved" the fishery back in the early 90's. On the other hand those few hundred fish are typically from the same school and are prone to being wiped out quite easily by intense focused fishing effort.....which is the norm these days when the remaining fish are located. The fewer schools, the less the chance one group hits it big...


After rereading your post I'm beginning to wonder, Numby...:smokin:

To carry it one step further, if the gene pool has become smaller (less diverse) due to the number of fish in a school that hits it big, is the resulting YOY class more prone to disease and abnormalities?

In other words, is the result weakened immune systems made worse by a lack of forage or a genetic predisposition toward certain diseases like microbacteriosis?

I'll be the first to admit that I may be stepping into water over my head and deep enough to make my hat float on issues involving dominant/recessive genes, but I do know a good bit about dog breeding and the inadvisability of dating one's sister or cousins

Or maybe it's still just a case of 'all of the above' in regards to breeding, forage, fishing pressure on the stock and the state of the marine environment in which they live

I think I'll have to brew another cup of starter fluid to see if this becomes any clearer...:yawn:

I am giving myself a popsicle headache going through a bunch of Menhaden research papers.
So many variables, the data is all over the place, some common, some not.

You can find whatever you are looking for.

I am blinded by science.

a qoute from a freinds brother''Years ago there were plenty of fish and and no fish scientist,now there are plenty of fish scientist and no fish.''

JUST MY 2CENTS
As i understand it bass spawning requires the proper PH in the brackish waters of a river. If the water moves to fast the eggs move into saline to soon and die.
The Hudson river with its limestone cliffs has helped the stripers in this system in spite of the chemicals
I also feel the menhaden and herring problem need to be addressed and now that licence money is involved,we as club members will have more clout than commercial interests,be they menhaden or sea herring netters and i hope we can turn things around for the betterment of stripers

Menhaden has a huge impact especially since it is a filter for the ocean. Typically Menhaden and oysters would take care of the algae blooms but since we've also taken all the oysters the only thing left is Menhaden. Wonder how all those oysters dis-appeared? Oh yeah they were in demand by clients of the commercial guys. Good excuse to eliminate them. Here's an interesting article on Menhaden

The article below was written in 2007. And folks it's only become a bigger issue over the last 3 years. Here's the article;

Thursday, August 23, 2007
PRAY FOR THE PREY: GRN STAFF SUMMER BOOK REVIEW
THE MOST IMPORTANT FISH IN THE SEA BY H. BRUCE FRANKLIN

The Gulf of Mexico as a region is frequently forced to deal with ecological catastrophes from which the rest of the country can learn. Cases in point would be Louisiana’s staggering coastal land loss, and the dead zone created by nutrient pollution from the Mississippi River. These massive problems point researchers to the lessons of excess nitrogen and phosphorus in marine ecosystems, and the important roles that natural sediment and fresh/saltwater regimes play in maintaining estuarine wetlands.

It’s a less frequent occurrence when those who manage our natural resources can look to other parts of the country and learn from their mistakes. In H. Bruce Franklin’s “The Most Important Fish in the Sea,” that’s exactly the opportunity that is presented, in the form of an exhaustive chronicle of a modest fish.

Following the boom-bust economic/ecological history of menhaden (or alewives, or moss-bunkers, or in the Gulf the fish known as pogies) up and down the Atlantic Coast, this book underscores again and again the role the fish play in a functioning ecosystem: as forage for predatory fish, birds, marine mammals and sharks; and as filter feeders, challenging even oysters in their ability to clean waters of excess nutrients and algae. That ecological role is underscored in the face of seemingly thoughtless commercial exploitation, first for fertilizer, then for oil, finally for a mix of feed for farm animals and aquaculture, oil for health supplements and some pet foods.

As the industry fished this species again and again to regional population collapses, driven by an ever-more efficient fleet of airplane-guided purse seines, people finally began to catch on to the impact. Few would complain about the absence of menhaden, as it’s a fish no one eats, but the absence of menhaden began to have impacts to other strands in the food web once anchored by this oily fish, and as striped bass began to show signs of stress due to lack of their primary forage, recreational fishermen in the Atlantic grew concerned. As this concern fueled political opposition to the fishery, states began to close their waters to this near-monopoly, and the industry turned toward the Gulf.

Now the second largest fishery by weight in the U.S., most menhaden are caught in Gulf waters. More precisely, due to net bans in Florida and Alabama, most menhaden are caught in Mississippi, Louisiana, and some Texas waters. With a processing plant in Empire, LA, Daybrook Fisheries is the smaller force in the industry, dwarfed by Omega Protein which owns processing plants in Moss Point, MS and Abbeville, and Cameron, LA. Despite the size of the harvest, and the efficiency of the fleet, there currently exist no annual catch limits for the Gulf menhaden fishery. Within the industry’s self appointed summer season, they catch what they can find.

Of course some of what they find within a menhaden school aren’t solely the prey, but sometimes the predator. In the very little amount of information the industry has ever allowed off the deck of a menhaden boat, researchers have reported shark bycatch as high as 148 blacktip and spinner sharks caught in a single purse seine set. In addition to sharks, fishermen have reported the disappearance of dolphins for weeks at a time after the menhaden fleet visits their waters.

In our region it’s not striped bass that recreational fisherman would be watching closely, but our popular spotted seatrout (specks) and red drum (redfish) both eat menhaden, which is why it is such an effective bait. As much as 95% of the spring redfish diet can consist of menhaden.

While our Gulf ecosystem struggles with vanishing wetlands and a seemingly endless dead zone, we may be wise to pay close attention to the troubling tale of menhaden over exploitation on the Atlantic Coast that Mr. Franklin’s book shares with us, and look at the role that menhaden play in those larger, more immediate concerns. What will happen to the estuarine-dependent menhaden schools as the coastal wetlands dissolve, and how can a robust, historic population of menhaden help mitigate the algae driven dead zone? While we don’t know the answer to these questions, it seems highly reasonable to being asking them more forcefully.
Delete Post

Here's another article and take close note that the Menhaden industry is regulated General Assembly ( politicians ). Every other species in Virginia is regulated by the Virginia Marine Resource Commission. Wonder why that is? I'll tell you why...$$$. Seems liike Omega Protein is a big contributor to some of the politicians there. Omega also spent something like $70,000 last year to lobbyists on their behalf. Take a look;

This was taken off another site;

Menhaden - an oily, bony baitfish - attracts more than stripers and bluefish. It attracts Virginia lawmakers by the score.

Omega Protein, which harvests menhaden for industrial purposes and processes them in Reedville, has carved out the privileged status of having its fishery in the Chesapeake Bay regulated by politicians to whom it gives thousands of dollars in donations each year.

The commercial exploitation of creatures in state waters is ordinarily controlled by the Virginia Marine Resource Commission. The VMRC regulates oysters, blue crabs, striped bass, bluefish, speckled trout and much, much more. What it doesn't regulate - by law - is menhaden, one of the largest commercial catches in Virginia waters. Instead, the fishery is the only one overseen by the General Assembly, where marine scientists are in short supply.

That's a problem. Menhaden are voracious filter feeders and once were common as pebbles in the Chesapeake Bay.

They cleaned the Bay's waters and fed all kinds of bigger fish.

Menhaden are considered so critical to the ecosystem of the East Coast and the food chain that author Bruce Franklin titled his book, "The Most Important Fish in the Sea." Allowing the company that profits from the fish, and its lawmakers, to decide how many Omega should catch is the equivalent of letting foxes decide how many chickens to keep in the henhouse.

Still, the General Assembly has refused to cede oversight of menhaden to VMRC. Omega is now subject to a compromise between state and federal regulators that allows the company to take 100,000 metric tons of menhaden a year in the Chesapeake. The company has come nowhere near that cap, a fact that environmentalists cite as proof of overfishing and company officials cite as proof of caution.

Most likely it's proof that the company - the only one working in Virginia - is catching all the menhaden it needs in state waters outside the Bay. According to the National Marine Fisheries Service, 160,357 metric tons of menhaden were landed in Virginia in 2008, most from state waters. Virginia and North Carolina are the only East Coast states that permit industrial menhaden fishing.

What isn't clear is whether the species can survive this onslaught. The Bay continues to be plagued by dead zones caused by too much of the algae the creatures can eat; there are signs the fish that prey on menhaden are suffering because their food supplies are dwindling.

Such uncertainty can be traced back to a faulty regime in which lawmakers were asked to regulate a complicated fishery in a complex ecosystem that even experts don't fully understand. Instead of the VMRC, which is supported by the best science and data available and meets every month, menhaden are regulated by lawmakers who meet on a tight two-month calendar and have a million other things to worry about.

Given the thousands of dollars Omega has distributed in Richmond over the years, that's perhaps no surprise. But it is wrong, it is dangerous for the Bay, and it should change.

Sen. Ralph Northam and Del. John Cosgrove have introduced legislation that would properly put menhaden regulation under the VMRC, where it would be governed by science and what's best for the Chesapeake and the fishery. The legislation is likely to face tough opposition in the House of Delegates, where Omega has been especially generous.

As before, their proposals to protect menhaden and the Bay will test the extent to which money serves as bait for lawmakers in Richmond.

Typically Menhaden and oysters would take care of the algae blooms but since we've also taken all the oysters the only thing left is Menhaden. Wonder how all those oysters dis-appeared? Oh yeah they were in demand by clients of the commercial guys. Good excuse to eliminate them.

FYI for the last 100 years or so almost 100% of the commercially sold oysters coming out of the Chessie were aquacultured oysters. In the last twenty years or so there have been massive dieoffs of both aquacultured and wild oysters in the bay due the very same algal blooms you claim they clean up. Also adult menhaden don't eat algae, they eat zooplankon, but don't let the fact get in the way of a good rant.

none other than the Bush Dynasty!!!
if i'm not mistaken, their world hq's
and processing plant is in Houston~~

go figure!! figure on BIG $$$$$ for both shylocks!!
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: