ATLANTIC STRIPED BASS MANAGEMENT BOARD (February 2, 2010)
Meeting Summary
The Atlantic Striped Bass Management Board met to elect a Board vice-chair; review a report
from the Technical Committee, including presentations from three guest speakers on
mycobacteriosis; review the status of the 2010 Cooperative Winter Tagging Cruise; and discuss
the coastal commercial quotas for striped bass.
The Technical Committee (TC) Report responded to five tasks from the Management Board
regarding the juvenile abundance index (JAI) trigger, implications of mycobacteriosis on the
stock, implications of overestimating recreational catch on stock assessment results, the
availability and use of poaching estimates in stock assessment, and evidence for an offshore shift
in stock distribution. The TC Report is available on the Commission’s website
(http://www.asmfc.org/strippedBassMM.htm); only partial details are included here.
The TC reported that it did not recommend using an abbreviated time series when evaluating the
JAI trigger, and, as per a proposed work plan, will complete a more thorough review of each JAI
and the definition of recruitment failure for the Management Board in May. Discussion and
action in response to the TC’s recommendation regarding a potential recreational catch
9
overestimation was referred to the ISFMP Policy Board because of multispecies implications.
Based on the reported lack of adequate poaching estimates for inclusion in stock assessments, a
subcommittee of law enforcement and TC representatives was tasked with designing study
methods capable of producing assessment-grade poaching estimates. The Management Board
also recommended that the ISFMP Policy Board consider sending letters to the National Marine
Fisheries Service and the United States Coast Guard requesting greater fines and permit
sanctions for vessels that illegally harvest striped bass in federal waters.
The 2010 Cooperative Winter Tagging Cruise has been delayed due to vessel repairs and funding
complications. The issue of securing long-term funding was referred to the ISFMP Policy Board
because, in addition to tagging striped bass, the cruise collects important biological data on
multiple Commission-managed species.
The discussion of coastal commercial quotas resulted in a motion to initiate an addendum to
increase the coastal commercial quotas for striped bass; the motion passed. A draft addendum
will be prepared for the Board’s meeting in May. Before considering action to approve the draft
addendum for public comment, the Board will first hear the report from the TC on JAIs. For
more information, please contact Nichola Meserve, Fishery Management Plan Coordinator, at
(202) 289-6400 or nmeserve@asmfc.org.
Motions
Move to nominate Tom O’Connell as Vice-Chair of the Striped Bass Management Board.
Motion made by Mr. Goldsborough and seconded by Mr. Augustine. Motion passes by consent.
Move to initiate an addendum to increase the coastwide commercial quota.
Motion made by Mr. Augustine and seconded by Mr. Johnson. Motion carries (Roll Call Vote: In
favor – NY, DE, MD, PRFC, VA, NC, USFWS, NMFS; Opposed – ME, NH, MA, RI, CT, NJ,
PA; Abstention – DC).

ATLANTIC STRIPED BASS MANAGEMENT BOARD (February 2, 2010)
Meeting Summary
The Atlantic Striped Bass Management Board met to elect a Board vice-chair; review a report from the Technical Committee, including presentations from three guest speakers on mycobacteriosis; review the status of the 2010 Cooperative Winter Tagging Cruise; and discuss the coastal commercial quotas for striped bass. Translation: Recognizing mycobacteriosis and seeing presentations - Good (start anyway) but discuss the coastal commercial quotas for striped bass - bad.

The Technical Committee (TC) Report responded to five tasks from the Management Board regarding the juvenile abundance index (JAI) trigger, implications of mycobacteriosis on the stock, implications of overestimating recreational catch on stock assessment results, the availability and use of poaching estimates in stock assessment, and evidence for an offshore shift in stock distribution. The TC Report is available on the Commission’s website (http://www.asmfc.org/strippedBassMM.htm (http://www.asmfc.org/strippedBassMM.htm%29;) ) only partial details are included here.The TC reported that it did not recommend using an abbreviated time series when evaluating the JAI trigger, and, as per a proposed work plan, will complete a more thorough review of each JAI and the definition of recruitment failure for the Management Board in May. Discussion and action in response to the TC’s recommendation regarding a potential recreational catch
overestimation was referred to the ISFMP Policy Board because of multispecies implications.

Based on the reported lack of adequate poaching estimates for inclusion in stock assessments, a subcommittee of law enforcement and TC representatives was tasked with designing study methods capable of producing assessment-grade poaching estimates. The Management Board also recommended that the ISFMP Policy Board consider sending letters to the National Marine
Fisheries Service and the United States Coast Guard requesting greater fines and permit sanctions for vessels that illegally harvest striped bass in federal waters.

Still reading the novel HERE: http://striped-bass.com/striper-fishing/images/stories/media/jan2010SBtcReport.pdf

The 2010 Cooperative Winter Tagging Cruise has been delayed due to vessel repairs and funding complications. The issue of securing long-term funding was referred to the ISFMP Policy Board because, in addition to tagging striped bass, the cruise collects important biological data on multiple Commission-managed species.

The discussion of coastal commercial quotas resulted in a motion to initiate an addendum to increase the coastal commercial quotas for striped bass; the motion passed. A draft addendum will be prepared for the Board’s meeting in May. Before considering action to approve the draft addendum for public comment, the Board will first hear the report from the TC on JAIs. For more information, please contact Nichola Meserve, Fishery Management Plan Coordinator, at (202) 289-6400 or nmeserve@asmfc.org.

Motions
Move to nominate Tom O’Connell as Vice-Chair of the Striped Bass Management Board.

Motion made by Mr. Goldsborough and seconded by Mr. Augustine. Motion passes by consent.

Move to initiate an addendum to increase the coastwide commercial quota.

Motion made by Mr. Augustine and seconded by Mr. Johnson. Motion carries (Roll Call Vote: In favor – NY, DE, MD, PRFC, VA, NC, USFWS, NMFS; Opposed – ME, NH, MA, RI, CT, NJ, PA; Abstention – DC).

Thanks for posting this. Been watching the web site for the results of the meetinf. Last year predicted that as soon as Maryland got over their poaching guilt this would pass.

what a difference a year makes 2009 vote
Move to initiate an addendum including options to increase the coastal commercial quotas by 10, 15, 20 and
25% and adopt a 50% underage rollover.
Motion made by Mr. Johnson, second by Mr. Calomo. Motion fails by roll call vote (In favor: MA, NY, DE, DC,
PRFC, VA, and NC; Opposed: ME, NH, RI, CT, NJ, PA, and MD; Abstention: NMFS; absent: USFWS).

A bunch of crap, if you ask me. I'm glad that I am young because there's another moratorium on the way. ASMFC is completely inept and the associations (some of which are present here) that state we should support them are only expediting the destruction.

Hope everyone enjoys catching bluefish. What a joke.

Sell your high end equipment. Soon, you won't be needing it.

Check out pages 4 and 5 of attachment 2
Notice a trend ?

Think I better clean up the Big Berthas.

We may have some down time in the near future.

Told you so :devil:
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Interesting plot on next to last page of report. SB tagged on Stellwagen show up along the coast (anyone surprised).

Check out pages 4 and 5 of attachment 2
Notice a trend ?

apropos for above quote-
http://www.asmfc.org/speciesDocuments/stripedBass/landings/stripedBassLandings2010.pdf

also an argument from same document (Atlantic Striped Bass Management Board)
http://striped-bass.com/striper-fishing/images/stories/media/jan2010SBtcReport.pdf

Attachment 3, Figures 3, 4
(female spawning stock biomass)

...above is to keep everything in perspective....

Interesting plot on next to last page of report. SB tagged on Stellwagen show up along the coast (anyone surprised).


Saw that, very interesting. Notice in the prior survey, tagging location was different. It would take many tagging / receiving / surveys to get a better picture but that data would be insightful.

Buyin a sailboat nothin else to do on the water soon

Buyin a sailboat nothin else to do on the water soon

C'mon..... You really think that the fishing is that bad??????

remember 81'?

Yep, it's gonna get there

C'mon..... You really think that the fishing is that bad??????

Can we afford not to be proactive and err on the side of caution?

I'm not one of the people that wants to go Gamefish and eliminate all commercial fishing for stripers. Anecdotal observations of the past few years and conversations of this winter has done nothing to increase my support for comm bass fishing. And the way things are going and have the potential to go, you will see fewer people not against shutting down commercial fishing and lot more for shutting it down. This is reaching a tipping point on both quality of the stocks AND public perception on the merits of comm bass fishing.

ASMFC keeps pushing to open more pounds and areas and less conservation then it may all crash.

What do you think would happen if there were no rules changes but the rules on the books were enforced (east coast-wide not selective)!

I must be stupid,
If some charts show the 8 yr old biomass declining.
And some charts show total biomass climbing.
Does that imply more small fish and less bigger fish ?:confused:

well we'd all have to pay more fees to pay for the enforcement

well we'd all have to pay more fees to pay for the enforcement

Isn't everyone going to have to pay this/next year for a saltwater fishing license! What an excellent way to use the funds, increased enforcement.

Isn't everyone going to have to pay this/next year for a saltwater fishing license! What an excellent way to use the funds, increased enforcement.

No they are using the funds to build the national database. I am waiting for the rfi to come out and I am going to bid on it.

well we'd all have to pay more fees to pay for the enforcement

If they enforced properly, I'm willing to bet they'd make more than enough dishing out fines.

Just think about the increased vigilance in dishing out moving violations by police departments as funding has declined.

If as many people are breaking the law as is laymen observations report, then they should have no problem turning a profit through the fines.

Did anyone notice that the ASMFC is asking the feds to increase the fines for fishing in the EEZ?

I must be stupid,
If some charts show the 8 yr old biomass declining.
And some charts show total biomass climbing.
Does that imply more small fish and less bigger fish ?

My interpertation is that the larger fish biomass is steady (in fact it has shown a tendency to increase); that is mostly due to the huge spawning classes (1993-2005 Attachment 1)...those fish have been growing (and caught), but there were such huge spawns those years that they created a very large pool of fish...thats why the F index is still high; remember that the YOY was started in 1950 (started tracking in 57), and has shown up and downs (as most life cycles do). I think the SUPPOSED shortage of small fish (I haven't seen it in my time on the water-which is often) may be caused by the increase in rec targeting, and the increased commercial quota to net fishery in the Chesapeake (DE, MD, PRFC, VA, NC) several years back. I think that because the spawning biomass is so large, the F index is above what ASMFC considers proper to sustain the viability of the species....it is a very hard thesis for a layman (that's me) to follow, a lot of these scientists working for ASMFC have dedicated their professional careers to study the fishery. For me, I have to place my trust in something, and my 40 years on the water has shown that the fishery is a lot better than in the late 70's...(though I still caught then)....so I have faith in their postulations.....

Be nice to get some of these scientist around a bonfire with scotch and cigars.
Pick their brains a little and clear up the fog of stats.

WOW! Ypu guys have no idea what you are reading! That is sure true in this case...I hope you all quit fishing because then I will have alot more spots to myself...page 4 and 5 says nothing of a stock collapse, it merely discusses the effect that said Myco might have on the fish and if you look its all the same all the way back to 99...meaning it reall hasn't effected anything because we had an explosion of 2001 2002 yoy creating a huge 8 year old year class that is dying soon of old age...the affected fish have always been effected...secondly I love the anti commercial sentiment again...if you read the numbers of fish caught recreationally it is actually up! So where is this 1/3 of what the catch was? and the commercial fishery is the same! LOL wow funny how some of you can actually read something that is not even there!

apropos for above quote-
http://www.asmfc.org/speciesDocuments/stripedBass/landings/stripedBassLandings2010.pdf

also an argument from same document (Atlantic Striped Bass Management Board)
http://striped-bass.com/striper-fishing/images/stories/media/jan2010SBtcReport.pdf

Attachment 3, Figures 3, 4
(female spawning stock biomass)

...above is to keep everything in perspective....


And here is a little perspective for you since you are so fond of throwing that bogus recreational/commercial curve at us again and again.

"......... Since MRFSS recreational landings of striped bass are likely
overestimated by 45% to 70% after 1999, the current (2008) coast-wide commercial
landings composition would have increased from 31% under the original MRFSS landing
to 52% under the scenario 1 bias correction, and further to 59% following bias correction
under scenario 2. "


Am I reading it wrong or does that say the commercial catch is actually more like 52-59% of coastwide striped bass landing (excluding poaching of course since as they are quick to point out..."There is no requirement for estimating poaching
as part of the management program.") ? Add poaching in and what does that do to the numbers? Of course the ASMFC board chooses not to see things that way. The garbage numbers are obviously more suitable to their (and your) agenda.

The garbage numbers are obviously more suitable to their (and your) agenda.

My agenda???..."throwing at you again and again"....

It's pretty obvious what your's is...ATTACK everybody who tries to offer a different point of view then yours....

...As I said, I am a layman when it comes to the science (referring to what you posted, as in the document cited)...I know what I see on the water (as I stated)...
Also, in reference to your claim about 52-59% commercial catch (thats diffirent then reports I've seen...)....I think I offered up what was an increase in COMMERCIAL NETTING IN CHESAPEAKE .....it happened several years ago....MA and RI quotas have been static....

........people like you are impossible to reason with....thats why we have both sides fighting each other.......bye

Click on the hooks to see pics.
Not many small fish. Lots look to be full of roe.

http://www.virginiafishing.com/FISHING%20REPORTS/January/Januaryindexlist.htm

8 year old fish are dying of old age.
Guess I really don't know what I'm reading.
I assumed the base line was actual data, my bad. I 'm just a dumb electrical contractor not a scientist.
According to the Virginia Institute of Marine Science the bass is a long lived fish that can reach 30 yrs of age.
But they are not as smart as most of us.:uhuh:

WOW! Ypu guys have no idea what you are reading! That is sure true in this case...I hope you all quit fishing because then I will have alot more spots to myself...page 4 and 5 says nothing of a stock collapse, it merely discusses the effect that said Myco might have on the fish and if you look its all the same all the way back to 99...meaning it reall hasn't effected anything because we had an explosion of 2001 2002 yoy creating a huge 8 year old year class that is dying soon of old age...the affected fish have always been effected...secondly I love the anti commercial sentiment again...if you read the numbers of fish caught recreationally it is actually up! So where is this 1/3 of what the catch was? and the commercial fishery is the same! LOL wow funny how some of you can actually read something that is not even there!

8 year old fish dying of old age? Do you have any data that supports that? And I was always told that 8 year old bass are basically teenagers.
From the NOAA website:
# Growth rate: Growth rates are variable, depending on a combination of season, location, age, sex, and competition. Growth is more rapid during the second and third years of life, before striped bass reach sexual maturity, than during later years. After age 4, growth may be 2.5 to 3 inches a year until age 8. Starting at age 4, females grow faster than males. Growth occurs between April and October.
# Maximum size: Striped bass generally grow to lengths of up to 59 inches and weights of 55 to 77 pounds. The largest striped bass on record is a 125-pound female caught off North Carolina in 1891.

By your "facts", stripers should only get to a maximum size of about 24".

OK so which of you canal guys caught the 2 missing stripers: 9 detected on the E end and only 7 made it to the W end!:fishslap:

Check out pages 4 and 5 of attachment 2
Notice a trend ?

Think I better clean up the Big Berthas.

We may have some down time in the near future.

The way I read these specific exhibits is that "Natural Mortality" (variable M) has dramatically declined since 2004. However, biomass (and abundance) have remained stable over that time period (unless you look at very young year class since "natural mortality" is the only way they die since no one is plugging for fry -- though I've seen JohnnyD try).

However, over that same time period, the 8+ class has declined (despite reduction in "M"). So this raises the question of what's happening to 8 year or older fish. They are not dying naturally (as someone insinuated earlier) since bass live much longer than that AND "M" (natural mortality) is declining. So it would be obvious to suspect that fishing (even by catch) is playing a role.

However, these fish move around a lot and as many of us know they haven't been showing up in the usual places (specifically some inshore areas) in the last few years. Maybe the scientists just aren't finding the bigger fish...I know I'm not :)

Thats kind of the thought I was getting at.
Maybe I am spoiled but a bass is a real deal when it's over 40 pounds.
And they are not as common as not that long ago.
Many reasons why I'm sure, you know as well as I that they have always been offshore.
Oceans a funny place.
That's why chasing Tuna is so much fun.

:exp:

too much:bs:

8 year old fish "dying of old age"...:rotflmao:

Dude...please....:rotf2:

Hey all...I got back from ASMFC on Friday and will ahve some coments and additional notes on a very strange meeting week.

For now check this out...

Be nice to get some of these scientist around a bonfire with scotch and cigars.
Pick their brains a little and clear up the fog of stats.

ASMFC will be one of the as of today 96 booths at the MSBA show...the person working the booth is a very attractive lady named Nichola who is the staffer for the Striped Bass Board...she keeps all the current info flowing and is as good a source for straigh info as there is on the coast...come talk to her...really.

My agenda???..."throwing at you again and again"....

Also, in reference to your claim about 52-59% commercial catch (thats diffirent then reports I've seen...)....I think I offered up what was an increase in COMMERCIAL NETTING IN CHESAPEAKE .....it happened several years ago....MA and RI quotas have been static....

........people like you are impossible to reason with....thats why we have both sides fighting each other.......bye

Sorry to be so animated, but it is not "my" claim. It is in the ASMFC report you directed me to in order to gain some "perspective", thank you.

So again, their technical comittee says that using more realistic methods of estimating commercial catch, the commercial take is 52-59 % of the TOTAL coastwide take (unless I misunderstand what they are saying). Sort of shows that graph to be a whole lot of BS. Also suggests the commercial catch (and I note they refuse to include commercial poaching) is one helluva a lot more of an issue than convenient those suggesting the recreational sector is 80% to blame. Do you agree?

So again, their technical comittee says that using more realistic methods of estimating commercial catch, the commercial take is 52-59 % of the TOTAL coastwide take (unless I misunderstand what they are saying). Sort of shows that graph to be a whole lot of BS. Also suggests the commercial catch (and I note they refuse to include commercial poaching) is one helluva a lot more of an issue than convenient those suggesting the recreational sector is 80% to blame. Do you agree?


.........no offense taken....
I would agree that the commercial catch may be larger than years ago; as I originally stated, several years ago the quotas in the net states (MD, DE, NC,VI, Chesapeake) were increased....quotas in the other commercial states MA, RI, NY) have been relatively static. I think the reasoning for this increase was that those "breeding" states took such a large hit to their fishing economy during the moratorium years, that when the striped bass was declared recovered by ASMFC, they increased their quotas.
Also in the same paragraph you refer to it states-

"Following bias correction, ages 7+ F on striped bass would have
fallen by 38% to 54%. Current (2008) ages 7+ F was 0.27 based on original (uncorrected)
MRFSS harvest estimates, 0.16 after bias correction under scenario 1 and 0.14 after bias
correction under scenario 2. Despite the severe bias in MRFSS recreational landings and
discards, all recent (2000-2008) F estimates, derived either before and after bias
correction, would have remained well below our current overfishing threshold for striped
bass (i.e. F < Fmsy= 0.40).

So I think with what you cited they were talking about older fish (still a layman trying to interpret all this). Take note that they stated "well below our current overfishing threshold for striped
bass "......
Also, in the same report, page 8, the following was reported-

"In addition, a
recreational catch adjustment was made excluding the party-charter (PC) component of the
striped bass catch after 2004 because the MRFSS has adopted a specific survey for party-charter
fisheries since 2005."

Now, why are charter/ headboats catches not included in the the figures you reported? Are they quasi commercial? I still believe that that is where the largest piece of the striper pie is going...not to change the subject (but I will), if you do the numbers, COASTWIDE, there are a lot of bass being caught in that fishery, YEARLY. Look at whats going on down south now.

If I do have an agenda, it is that the striped bass fishery is a shared resource....that as a rod and reel commercial fisherman who has as much respect for these fish as you do, I get upset at being portayed as the bad guy..I have my quota, I abide by it, and I respect the right given to me to pursue them. And I do passionately care for their viability to continue to satisfy both camps (rec/commercial) in the future....

Basing regulations on this entire "user group" and "shared resource" thing is utter nonsense. This is not protection of the species, it is protection of the user group. This group takes this, this group takes that, he has more than I do, if we don't catch them it will leave more for them..makes me :yak5:

Just do what you have to so that the fish is protected, let the chips fall where they may. It is what it is. If it means a shut down, fine. Just protect the fish.

Asking a comm fisherman is it OK if we make "your" fish a gamefish is like taking crack from an addict. Of course he will kick and scream. They should not be seeking the opinions of any of the user groups. Regulators must take their head out of their ass and do what is right for the fish.

The amount of "data" out there is mind-numbing. Read that thing, it could be shot down by anyone. Who knows how good the data really is? Selectively using this data and making correction after correction to it which is further error prone makes for any result you want. It would not surprise me if behind the scenes they know what answer they want before they get started.

We need to take conservative action and err on the side of safety, regulators should be concerned about the fish and ignore side effects to the fishermen.

.
"In addition, a
recreational catch adjustment was made excluding the party-charter (PC) component of the
striped bass catch after 2004 because the MRFSS has adopted a specific survey for party-charter
fisheries since 2005."

Now, why are charter/ headboats catches not included in the the figures you reported? Are they quasi commercial? I still believe that that is where the largest piece of the striper pie is going...not to change the subject (but I will), if you do the numbers, COASTWIDE, there are a lot of bass being caught in that fishery, YEARLY. Look at whats going on down south now.
.

They are included in the overall numbers as recreational caught fish. They are not included in the MRFSS numbers because charter/party boats have to report hard numbers and are included in a different survey. Thus the charter/party numbers were excluded from any correction factor that was applied to the MRFSS numbers.

Basing regulations on this entire "user group" and "shared resource" thing is utter nonsense. This is not protection of the species, it is protection of the user group. This group takes this, this group takes that, he has more than I do, if we don't catch them it will leave more for them..makes me :yak5:

Just do what you have to so that the fish is protected, let the chips fall where they may. It is what it is. If it means a shut down, fine. Just protect the fish.

Asking a comm fisherman is it OK if we make "your" fish a gamefish is like taking crack from an addict. Of course he will kick and scream. They should not be seeking the opinions of any of the user groups. Regulators must take their head out of their ass and do what is right for the fish.

The amount of "data" out there is mind-numbing. Read that thing, it could be shot down by anyone. Who knows how good the data really is? Selectively using this data and making correction after correction to it which is further error prone makes for any result you want. It would not surprise me if behind the scenes they know what answer they want before they get started.

We need to take conservative action and err on the side of safety, regulators should be concerned about the fish and ignore side effects to the fishermen.

Are you saying that the striped bass population is endangered? You'll have a tough time getting anyone to agree with that. Everyone seems to agree that the population of breeding fish is healthy enough to support some amount of harvest. So once you reach that point, then it's just a question of how much harvest and who gets to do the killing.

.......

"In addition, a
recreational catch adjustment was made excluding the party-charter (PC) component of the
striped bass catch after 2004 because the MRFSS has adopted a specific survey for party-charter
fisheries since 2005."

Now, why are charter/ headboats catches not included in the the figures you reported? Are they quasi commercial? I still believe that that is where the largest piece of the striper pie is going...not to change the subject (but I will), if you do the numbers, COASTWIDE, there are a lot of bass being caught in that fishery, YEARLY. Look at whats going on down south now.

....

The commercial percentage is not going up because they are catching more fish, it is going up because the recreational fishermen are catching (and never were) nowhere near the numbers they are being estimated to catch (this is discussed in detail in the expanded section on the flaw in the MRFSS sampling methodology).

The percentage of commercial caught bass does not change...it stays at over 50%......relative to the entire coastwide catch, because the coastwide recreational catch is made up of Recreational (MRFSS measured charter survey + MRFSS estimated non-charter catch) and only the later number is wildly off (70% overestimate x millions of fisherman leads to a huge total overestimate). The accurate charter estimates undoubtably make up a large percentage of the actual 40 % of fish the recreational sector uses.

The number is not of great concern to the ASMFC.....indeed it is comforting to them since it means total fishing pressure is not as high as they assumed.....which translates into there supposedly being more fish that can safely be caught......hence the vote to consider increasing commercial quotas further.

Now this might make sense if the actual numbers of fish were what they like to estimate, but if there are that many fish why are recreational catch NUMBERS (not poundage) plummeting so fast? Maybe the survey is so flawed it can't be trusted....or maybe there are not as many fish as they estimate and the dimishing success of the millions of average anglers coastwide reflects that.

So where do you think this is headed as the millions of average anglers begin to recognize that they are "getting" maybe 20% of the overall quota (commercial 55% per the technical comittee report/Charter say 25%) and that number is dropping fast?

At very least they ought to redraw that annoying graph and pie chart to show what is really happening and people stop using it to support a position it does not support.

I'll say it agian... I do not know of a single charter boat running six packs that reports their catch of striped bass as they were never required to, with the exception of NY and those numbers are whatever they say they are. who is wieghing those fish in and tallying the weight??? Same Crap like the NJ Bonus Tag Program, the less you report, the less headaches and the more fish you can kill right??? Wonder if the boats in va and nc are????? Charter boats kill the most bass, no question....

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I'll say it agian... I do not know of a single charter boat running six packs that reports their catch of striped bass as they were never required to... Wonder if the boats in va and nc are????? Charter boats kill the most bass, no question....

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

From some of the research I've done, more and more evidence is popping up that the charters are killing a significant portion of bass.

If there are charter captains that think it's wrong how many bass are killed by the charter industry, they should take the dollar signs off of striped bass and stop chartering and commercial fishing.

Hmmmmm. . . . Follow the money.
Millions of angry recs may be starting to get a voice soon.
Storms a brewing.

......multiple use of a shared resource is the only equatable way...striped bass are a multi-use fish..........food is honorable........rec is honorable(even though respected Oceanographer Jacques Cousteau stated fish resources should be used for food...not for fun).........Cow Hunter is correct as the rec/charter group is putting a big dent is striper biomass coastwide.....

From some of the research I've done, more and more evidence is popping up that the charters are killing a significant portion of bass.

If there are charter captains that think it's wrong how many bass are killed by the charter industry, they should take the dollar signs off of striped bass and stop chartering and commercial fishing.

Not everybody can afford to fish for fun, nor would they, some of us make a living on the water... My point is, I don't know personally of a single charter boat captain that would have a problem to 1 fish per angler... So we have to stop fishing for money because the charter regs are to lax???? Make the Same money if its 1 fish per angler or 2 fish per angler with half the mortality... Am I the Only one that sees this???
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Curious. . . what % of Charter boat are also commercial fishing boats ?
I have no idea,
Just throwing it out there.

I believe the real number of killed bass on charter boats is rather staggering, it's way above what is estimated, but then I'm no scientist... Trapperpierre us probably one of the most knowledgeable fisherman on here, he's been pointing out the charter boat impact for years... I know the guy loves striped bass more than many, I can bet that he's got more 60 and 50lbers on this board than anyone on this board...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

some boats are strictly charter...some are strickly commercial ...some of the boats(not all) ..some days they sail as charters...some days they sail as commercial.........hard cap documented data landings from commercial...undocumented large catches from rec/charter...............the commercial catches are fully documented..........the huge catches of bass that are from the rec/charter group are not fully recorded.....when these figures are obtained???we will have proof of the massive rec/charter catches of our beloved striped bass...........numbers? all comercial striper anglers are registered by state......also, charter boats have lists again by each state they fish from/in............check state data bases..

Sorry, I just can't see how anyone on here can believe these fish are near extinction??? What cause people can't catch 40-50 bass a trip every single day??? I mean there are days it's no problem but really... Every single day??? I should of never bought that new boat knowing the end was near and I should stop fishing for hire or money so there could be more easy to catch striped bass in the ocean! Get rid of the illegal poaching in Va an Nc that is so obvious. You can't compare that to sw ledge or the sub bouy, millions of pounds are poached where the fish are supposed to be protected. A closed area!! Why go after the guys that fish legit???
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

So where do you think this is headed as the millions of average anglers begin to recognize that they are "getting" maybe 20% of the overall quota (commercial 55% per the technical comittee report/Charter say 25%) and that number is dropping fast?


I still don't believe that 55% commercial figure....just as you don't believe what I'm saying...as someone else mentioned in this thread, it can all be massaged to what our indivudual bias is.

I will reiterate, the coastwide commercial quota is mostly coming from the net fishery in the Chesapeake -check the quota numbers out here-

http://www.asmfc.org/speciesDocuments/stripedBass/stateRegulations/stripedBassRegs08.pdf

6,432,727 lbs comes from DE,MD,PRFC,VI,NC, NY (mostly net fishery)

239,299 lbs from RI (145, 972 from R&R, the rest from the trap fishery)
1,107,485 lbs MA, hook & line

.........so now, according to what you have stated, 55 % of the striped bass mortality is coming from the commercial fishery-
7,779,511 lbs....so that means 3,500,780 lbs of fish are being killed by recreational (including charter/headboat) fisherman up and down the east coast? By "millions" of average anglers?? I think its alot more than that.....

remember 81'?

Yep, it's gonna get there

Most of the guys were not fishing in 81.

You guys will see. Nothing but Bluefish for 3 or 4 years. A schoolie will make the sports page and a 30# fish will be a thing of the past.

I lived through it once. I will quit this time and just golf. Two moritoriums in one lifetime is too much.

Curious. . . what % of Charter boat are also commercial fishing boats ?
I have no idea,
Just throwing it out there.

Probably a small single digit figure if your going down the entire striper coast.. Don't understand what difference that makes, com quota is a com quota... I only know of a few guides that com fish in mass and ri..
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Most of the guys were not fishing in 81.

You guys will see. Nothing but Bluefish for 3 or 4 years. A schoolie will make the sports page and a 30# fish will be a thing of the past.

I lived through it once. I will quit this time and just golf. Two moritoriums in one lifetime is too much.

I was there too, in fact, in the years leading up to then (started fishin in 72)...same area as you, and I did not see those dire conditions. In fact, Block Island was quite good those years (as was Valiant)...I caught some of my biggest fish then. Narragansett Bay wasn't very good, but that's another story. No way is the present fishery anywhere near as bad as that (remember, there were no regs back then...except min length of 16"...I believe the moratorium was in the mid-80's) even along the coast, you still got fish...any night, I could plug (pichney dannies) the middle wall and get 8-10 middle size fish....also there was fish in all the outside spots (Pigs, Vineyard, Elizabethans, Race) in late 70's early 80's...it just took hard work...
...and I did continue to fish (and release) during the moratorium...because I love to fish...
By the way, these days I still fish hard and play golf too..........and I'll be 62 in July

I suppose in a perfect world.
The com kill is documented.
The charter kill SHOULD be documented. (easy to do for an honest man)
The rec kill SHOULD be documented. (easy to do if you care )
Then you would have just the facts, mam.
And all this ridiculous finger pointing would go away.

I suppose in a perfect world.
The com kill is documented.
The charter kill SHOULD be documented. (easy to do for an honest man)
The rec kill SHOULD be documented. (easy to do if you care )
Then you would have just the facts, mam.
And all this ridiculous finger pointing would go away.

Well, the new saltwater fishing license requirement certainly sets the stage for the documentation you're calling for.

Well, the new saltwater fishing license requirement certainly sets the stage for the documentation you're calling for.

The truth is out there !

The truth is out there !

You can't handle the truth!

You can't handle the truth!

Not many can ,Paul.
So if I win the Panama trip wanna go ?

I still don't believe that 55% commercial figure....just as you don't believe what I'm saying...as someone else mentioned in this thread, it can all be massaged to what our indivudual bias is.

I will reiterate, the coastwide commercial quota is mostly coming from the net fishery in the Chesapeake -check the quota numbers out here-

http://www.asmfc.org/speciesDocuments/stripedBass/stateRegulations/stripedBassRegs08.pdf

6,432,727 lbs comes from DE,MD,PRFC,VI,NC, NY (mostly net fishery)

239,299 lbs from RI (145, 972 from R&R, the rest from the trap fishery)
1,107,485 lbs MA, hook & line

.........so now, according to what you have stated, 55 % of the striped bass mortality is coming from the commercial fishery-
7,779,511 lbs....so that means 3,500,780 lbs of fish are being killed by recreational (including charter/headboat) fisherman up and down the east coast? By "millions" of average anglers?? I think its alot more than that.....

I don't know about most of the states you listed but NY is about 50%-50% between R&R and Gillnets.

You can't handle the truth!

Let's at least find the truth whatever it may be.......then worry about how to handle it!

I suppose in a perfect world.
The com kill is documented.
The charter kill SHOULD be documented. (easy to do for an honest man)
The rec kill SHOULD be documented. (easy to do if you care )
Then you would have just the facts, mam.
And all this ridiculous finger pointing would go away.

Next year you should get your wish.At 'east from a statistical point of view. Right now they have a very good estimate of what the charter/party boats kill via the NMFS charter/party survey. Last year I think I was surveyed every month from May till oct.

Well, the new saltwater fishing license requirement certainly sets the stage for the documentation you're calling for.

Yeah Im sure it does... To register for NY as a charter Captain its up to $650! You think everybody will report honestly as to what they catch? Same like the NJ... People Will Not. Your not wieghing the fish in by a 3rd party, the numbers are whatever you feel like them being... Where is the $$$ Going? Im sure its to help the fishery right? Or to enforce violations like the local police are doing in a recession to raise more money??? Heck, My brother just got a letter from the State of NJ, he cashed out a small percentage of his 401k, went through an accountant, paid taxes... Last week he recieved a letter from the state that he didnt pay enough, owes $500 plus $1000 in late fees and interest. Says Statute of limitations does not apply even though its 5 years... Government needs more money is all... By any means, we fish, so We all Must be Loaded!!! Dont kid are selves that this saltwater license thing is a good thing, just another TAX! You should see the amount of people the IRS is Recruiting at the colleges! sorry to get off topic.... Somewhat...

That survey had lots of correction factors. Who knows what is real anymore.
I am talking about an unattainable Perfect scenario here.

I still don't believe that 55% commercial figure....just as you don't believe what I'm saying...as someone else mentioned in this thread, it can all be massaged to what our indivudual bias is.

.........so now, according to what you have stated, 55 % of the striped bass mortality is coming from the commercial fishery-
.

Please, jmac, it is not what I stated. It is what the ASMFC technical committee stated in the link you provided. Whether it is right or not, I can't say. I'll bet a plug, however, the ASMFC choses to ignore the technical committee's report on this issue and decides not to adjust their estimated recreational catch statistics downward by 70%. Any takers?

That survey had lots of correction factors. Who knows what is real anymore.
I am talking about an unattainable Perfect scenario here.

Your referring to the telephone survey as currently randomly conducted?

Perfection is a far off dream in a single person's eyes (your perfect is not/may not be the same as my perfect) but there are methods of getting closer than what is practiced today for taking surveys. How much money you got to spend?

No survey.
Say you go to the canal and catch 4 fish.
You decide to keep the bleeder. You report one fish killed, thats all.
You either call it in to an automated service. ( press one for one fish two for two etc ). No weight or length, just a number of fish kept.
Or e-mail it at your convenience.
Simple, done once at the end of the year, just an easy way to get better data.

Let's at least find the truth whatever it may be.......then worry about how to handle it!

I agree...was joking.

Not many can ,Paul.
So if I win the Panama trip wanna go ?

For sure I'm in, especially since you blew me off on Costa Rica! :drool:

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

I'll make it up to you with a trip to Kona.

a bit beyond ASMFC.......tooo much leisure time.....tooo much $$$....tooo many Xperts....tooo much information-cell phones, websites, magazines, books, lectures/seminars...(oh yea, been to Costa Rica & Kona a number of times-many other exotic fishing locales...great fishing...understatement)...........hey try this..get a 10-gallon style cowboy hat...everyone in 30 words or less create a SB management plan...drop our slips into the hat..........shake stir........pull one out......this should settle the matter............:)

a bit beyond ASMFC.......tooo much leisure time.....tooo much $$$....tooo many Xperts....tooo much information-cell phones, websites, magazines, books, lectures/seminars...(oh yea, been to Costa Rica & Kona a number of times-many other exotic fishing locales...great fishing...understatement)...........hey try this..get a 10-gallon style cowboy hat...everyone in 30 words or less create a SB management plan...drop our slips into the hat..........shake stir........pull one out......this should settle the matter............:)

I don't need 30 words.

Recreational: One at 36"
Enforce EEZ
Crack down on poaching

10 words.
would make a huge difference.

I don't need 30 words.

Recreational: One at 36"
Enforce EEZ
Crack down on poaching

10 words.
would make a huge difference.

:cheers:

I don't need 30 words.

Recreational: One at 36"
Enforce EEZ
Crack down on poaching

10 words.
would make a huge difference.

How about 6 words:

Enforce EEZ
Stop Poaching
Stop Bycatch

Limit entry to MA commercial fishery. 6

Utilize a tag system to reduce MA black market. 9

Use GPS monitoring to keep comms out of MA EEZ. 10

5 words left....

Boycott Virginia and North Carolina !! :realmad:

Limit entry to /MA/ commercial fishery. 5

Utilize a tag system to reduce /MA/ black market. 8

Use GPS monitoring to keep comms and charters out of /MA/ EEZ. 11

6 words left....

Boycott Virginia and North Carolina fishing!! :realmad:

see embedded comments, removed MA since all striper populations are inter-related.

Can't common ground be found so that recs and commercials can fight together against the true villains in this striper war?

I see it unlikely that an all or nothing bill will get passed, so why not work WITH the commercials in MA to create a better situation for everyone in MA - all the while working on the truly dire issues our bass face?

Collaboration in MA-
Cut out the 'recreational commercials' by limiting entry to the FEW who do rely on bass for a significant portion of their income. Mr. Diodati's notion that an almost free and open fishery is good for his entire state in times of GPS, fishfinders, live wells, radar, etc. is shear folly. A 'historic' fishery can be maintained, all be it in such a manner that the resource isn't raped by the general public.

Implement a tag/record keeping system that makes it much harder for a black market to exist. Allocate funds to enforce poaching regs.

Use GPS to monitor the few commecials deemed to worthy of the privilege of fishing for and selling bass.

Reduce the quota for the fishery to reflect the exit of the recreational commercials. Do not allocate the remaining quota to any other user group.


MidAtlantic/Coastwide Crisis-
The recreational/charter kill must be reduced and structured to protect the prime brood stock females.

Indiscriminate commercial/poacher netting must be addressed to protect the prime brood stock females.

NMFS and the Coast Guard must step up enforcement of the rampant EEZ poaching that is decimating the prime brood stock females.

Prespawn and spawning grounds in both the Chesapeake and Hudson must be off limits to all forms of fishing in the months leading up to the spawning run.

Omega Protein must not be allowed to strip mine the menhaden stocks of the MidAtlantic region.

Commercial agriculture operations within the Chesapeake watershed must be forced to treat their animals' waste to the same standards as human waste so it does not lead to algae blooms and subsequent hypoxia in Chesapeake Bay. .

Farmers upstream of the Chesapeake must be controlled in the way they use fertilizers that lead to algae blooms and subsequent hypoxia in Chesapeake Bay.
-------------------------

Would there not be enough fish for a limited and tightly controlled rod and reel fishery to exist for families that have historically fished bass in MA IF recs and commercials fought side by side to defeat the true enemies of the striped bass?

Just some thoughts on how to win the war by avoiding a costly battle.

Woody,
I agree we all need to fight together not against eachother...but remember in this fishery the comms have never attacked the rec sector because a lot of the guys do both...it is always groups like SF trying to shutdown the comm fishery and then the yelling insues...I believe that if SF pooled its resource and fought the major problem like bait and poor ecological conditions they would be welcomed more on both sides, but they don't they just seem to attack one group and it causes fights amongst everyone.

I have said it before like the rest of you...fix the bait...fix the problem...secondly SF is a Maine based group trying to pull political weight in another state, that is not right, I don't care if they think the fish swims everywhere so they have a right to fight in any congressional setting. Could you imagine me going to Maine and trying to stop Maine lobstering through the Maine legistlature because my lobstering in mass had slowed down???? Think about it? I would be killed! Or if I wanted to change the gauge size in Me because I couldn't get enough Keepers in Ma....

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:)

"Cut out the 'recreational commercials' by limiting entry to the FEW who do rely on bass for a significant portion of their income"

This is my "favorite". I asked this before when one of the "anti commercial fisherman" crowd posted a similar line of "logic" and got no answer.....So WoodyCT...I'll ask you this time since you brought it up. How many fish in a million lb. quota if it's caught by 100 guys as opposed to 1,000 guys? Open book...and you're allowed to get the other "select few" who deem themselves worthy of making economic decisions for everyone else to help. :gh:

If your family has historically been involved in commercial fishing and can demonstrate, through financial records, that the sale of striped bass has provided $X to your family over the last X years then you are considered to be dependent on the fishery and grandfathered a license.

Who is not a true commercial fisherman? All the weekend warriors out there with a $65 license to kill who are using the fish to pay for their expensive hobby are most certainly not.

As for the quota, let the true commercials who depend on bass for a significant % of their income catch as much of that 1 million pounds, or whatever is eventually determined to be a sustainable quota, as they can based on whatever bag limit and minimum-maximum size limits the managers determine best protects the spawning stock biomass. Once it is reached they are done on bass for the year.

"No brainer"
"As for the quota, let the true commercials who depend on bass for a significant % of their income catch as much of that 1 million pounds, or whatever is eventually determined to be a sustainable quota, as they can based on whatever bag limit and minimum-maximum size limits the managers determine best protects the spawning stock biomass. Once it is reached they are done on bass for the year."

So I guess it's not about the "fish" it's about who you decide should profit from the fishery?

So I guess it's not about the "fish" it's about who you decide should profit from the fishery?

It's about take. Cull out the licenses that aren't being used and there is less opportunity for abuse. We all know that there are people who utilize their commercial permit to keep more than 2 @ 28". I met a handful at the canal this past July.

Then, a reduced quota has less effect on the fishermen that are true commercial fishermen, as opposed to being utilized to fund a hobby and buy a new Tiagra 80.

well i hope you reported guys in June in the canal keeping more than two...cuz their license isn't good til July 12 in most cases!:uhuh:

om top of that there is no law against someone bringing home 30 to eat....during the season if they have a license and they are 34"

well i hope you reported guys in June in the canal keeping more than two...cuz their license isn't good til July 12 in most cases!:uhuh:

om top of that there is no law against someone bringing home 30 to eat....during the season if they have a license and they are 34"

Bah. You're right - July.

I don't know a lot of details on the specific regs for comms. But I know I'd be pissed if I were a career fisherman and some weekend warrior is holding a license so that they can take extra fish home for their freezer.

I think this is the bloated portion of the quota which could be reduced without affecting the career fisherman and as such, a compromise is made - the quota is reduced and career fishermen aren't affected.

om top of that there is no law against someone bringing home 30 to eat....during the season if they have a license and they are 34"


Are you sure about this? I thought that those fish caught commercially had to be sold to registered dealer. Clearly, if you get stopped on the water with 30 fish on board, you will claim you are commercial fishing with the intent of selling the catch to a registered dealer, if you take them home and put them in your freezer you are not commercial fishing. At some point the story changed. I think there was a guy busted in RI a couple years ago at his home because of this.

Next time you get stopped with 20 or 30 fish on board, tell the officer...I am just going to take these home to eat and see what he says.

Do you know how the quota is computed? They add up all the pounds of fish that were sold to the registered dealers every few days. If you took 30 fish home, then, they never made it to the dealer and therefore are not part of the quota. I am sure this is not legal because it defeats the entire quota purpose.

There are too many gray areas that can not be policed and ways to extend the season by avoiding the quota in this fishery. This is just one of them that the comm's exploit.

Regulations should be about the fish and not about the fishermen. Again, game fish status is a big step toward fish protection in that it takes the user groups out of it as well as the bickering of who has the right to kill them. Is it perfect, no, but it provides a good amount of protection while they figure out how many fish there and what is causing the problems with the decline in population disease control and destruction of their food sources and habitat which will take a number of years IMO.

"I don't know a lot of details on the specific regs for comms."
There's a revelation! And I see we're back to the all commercial bass guys are poaching crooks.......and I guess all rec's are lying BS'ers who make up little canal stories to suit their arguement.

We're back to the 'revelation', to use your own words, that some folks aren't capable of seeing both sides of the issue, just their side, which leads to an 'all or nothing' mindset which will lead to nothing except another moratorium. Do you really think commercial bass fishing will survive a second ASMFC bass crash? Think about it.

Here we have several recreational guys who can see that this isn't a good vs. evil issue. It's an issue affecting many many people, all of which need to make concessions and work collaboratively to refine the system before the system screws them all.

Another no brainer.

You know you'e right Woody...some folks can't or won't see both sides of the issue, but as Sashamy stated above it sure isn't "us" on the attack. Just look at the posts on this subject and see who's calling who, poachers, crooks, greedy...then we've got the MSBA, DMF, etc. bashers.... and those opinions are derived from what? Years of education in marine fisheries, collection and study of data...no just a bunch of internet whining & IMO's. Frankly I prefer to let fisheries managers make "informed" decisions; not me...or you...or a collection of self appointed fisheries experts.

"I don't know a lot of details on the specific regs for comms."
There's a revelation! And I see we're back to the all commercial bass guys are poaching crooks.......and I guess all rec's are lying BS'ers who make up little canal stories to suit their arguement.

I mean on the specifics like what Sashamy said about being able to take fish home for personal use, requirements in caring for the catch and such. I've never stated that all commercial bass guys are poaching crooks, but I'd bet that everyone here knows some that are.

Those fisheries managers making "informed" decisions have already allowed the stocks to completely crash once.

To paraphrase something Makai said in an earlier post, "The regulators won't act until their hand is forced." By then, it'll be too late.

Well maybe all rec's aren't lying BS'ers....but I bet everyone on here knows some that are!! ;-)

Well maybe all rec's aren't lying BS'ers....but I bet everyone on here knows some that are!! ;-)

Haha... very true.

Like the ol' proverb says: "Believe nothing of what you hear, and only half of what you see." So all of this is only academic anyway, because I don't believe anything that any of you are saying - even the people I agree with.

Man don't you guys ever get tired.:fight:
When action has to taken, probably when it's most grim.
Money and votes will decide who the players will be.
Because our government does such a bang up job in everything they touch, we will all be happy again.
:gh:

No actually if it is a comm day and u get checked they don't ask what you intend to do with your fish, they just make sure they are of size and that you have not exceeded your limit. I do though really find it to be a stretch to think that a mlot of guys are bringing these fish home to eat, but if they did weigh and record them than what is the problem? Guys with fluke licenses do it all the time...Simply put this whole bill was started by SF and M Patrick as a power grab, they attacked an industry that is done with a rod and reel not a net for their own personal gain and in my opinion that is not the way to get any mgt of a fishery done.

Secondly there has been a lot of accusations about greedy fishermen...Whether we are talking about stripers or cod yu have to know that we fishermen can only what NMFS/ASMFC allows us to catch, so why would a fisherman not complain about restrictions? It does make him greedy it makes him a business man like any other business owner. We all complain about taxes and regulation changes in any business...NMFS is too blame for allowing the raping of most species not the fisherman himself.

Speaking of "Patrick" has anyone seen his latest? Now he's going after the tuna with another bill! Yea...let's have MA manage the international pelagic fisheries.....someone needs to tell him MA waters extend to 3 mi......then dope slap him a few times!!:wall:

H764 An Act relative to conserving bluefin tuna.

Summary:
Creates a commission to study the existing bluefin tuna fishery and the interaction of commercial and recreational bluefin fisheries, to promote the viability and restore the population of the species, to examine the economic and biological impacts of various fishing techniques, and analyze historical data of bluefin taken in Massachusetts waters.

The Public Hearing is scheduled tomorrow Wednesday @ Noon before the Joint Committee on Natural Resources.

No it is Kocot not Patrick...but from the 1st Hampshire District??????? Why?????????

Secondly there has been a lot of accusations about greedy fishermen...Whether we are talking about stripers or cod yu have to know that we fishermen can only what NMFS/ASMFC allows us to catch, so why would a fisherman not complain about restrictions? It does make him greedy it makes him a business man like any other business owner. We all complain about taxes and regulation changes in any business...NMFS is too blame for allowing the raping of most species not the fisherman himself.


NMFS is just bowing to the pressure put on them by fisherman. NMFS may to guity of not doing their job but it is being caused by fisherman. What is this big fisherman march RFA and other groups are doing down in Washington all about. It's to put pressure on ASMFC and NMFS, not in the interest of fish, but to protect jobs by slowing down recovery time lines. Fisherman are the number one group to blame and then comes ASMFC and NMFS for bending to fisherman pressure.

My bad...shouldn't have posted without all the facts; I picked this up 3rd hand from a post by a knowledgable guy fighting the good fight re: tuna. Nevertheless...a good dope slap for 2 seems in order.

Sashamy...you don't seem busy today...think I'll go "offshore" and stir up the "baby killer" pot! Care to join me......just kidding...I have enough enemies for now!

"NMFS is just bowing to the pressure put on them by fisherman. NMFS may to guity of not doing their job but it is being caused by fisherman. What is this big fisherman march RFA and other groups are doing down in Washington all about. It's to put pressure on ASMFC and NMFS, not in the interest of fish, but to protect jobs by slowing down recovery time lines. Fisherman are the number one group to blame and then comes ASMFC and NMFS for bending to fisherman pressure." :lurk:

Those fisheries managers making "informed" decisions have already allowed the stocks to completely crash once.

To paraphrase something Makai said in an earlier post, "The regulators won't act until their hand is forced." By then, it'll be too late.

The fisheries managers did not let the stocks crash once...The stocks have "crashed" throughout history, i.e., the turn of the 19 century (plenty of history on the Cuttyhunk, Newport, Sakonnett bass stands empty and dilapidated because of the lack of fish).....

I believe what you refer to is the late 70's, early 80's. There was only one regulation then around here (to the best of my memory)...16" minimum length (I believe the limit was 12" for the Chesapeake netters back then)...otherwise no other regulations (bag limit,etc).
ASMFC started managing stripers because of the lack of fish then, and because of all the work we did back then (COMMERCIAL AND REC-I know, I was there at the mtgs as a R&R commercial) to get rules and regs to safeguard the fish.
Regarding ASMFC, as quoted from the ASMFC website-
"The Commission has managed striped bass since 1981. Amendment 6 to the Fishery Management Plan provides the current guidance to the states from Maine through North Carolina."
That is why I believe that any precipitous drop in the biomass will never reach the point it did back then; too many safeguards are in place.

The march is being sponsored by the Recreational Fishing Alliance...and it has come about mostly to oppose any no fishing zones...mpa's...that will hinder recreational use of the area....Right Pat Kirkill(spelling) is really bowing to the pressure with these new sectors they set up in the new ammendment to the New England groundfishery...bending so much that 8000 small boats wil be out of business and NMFS will only have to manage million dollar corporations and their boats....u forget that Gloucester, Plymouth, Green harbor are made up of mostly small boat commercial fisheries, while New Bedford has the million dollar bottom wreckers....

That is why I believe that any precipitous drop in the biomass will never reach the point it did back then; too many safeguards are in place.

If the ASMFC worked objectively and the science was better you would be correct.

But the ASMFC includes many people with agendas. There is no democratic representation, to reflect actual numbers of people using the resource (and no valid way to create such since the fish eating public deserves some level of representation), and most importantly the whole purpose of the ASMFC is to ensure maximal sustainable utilization of the resource, which they take to mean maximal yield of dead fish.

Hence, the ASMFC is always pushing the limit to kill more fish. Since the science is inexact, and their is substantial pressure from those with a financial stake in the species, the ASMFC errs on the side "seeing the best case scenario".

When people with this mindset become convinced something can "never" happen, you can be damn sure it not only can, but is made more likely by a false sense of security.

The real issue is that species abundance (and quality sized fish) is the goal of most recreational fishermen. It is not, however, the goal of the ASMFC (their goal is maximal safe utilization). I don't think it is that big a goal for most commercial fisherman either (An easy supply of fish drives down price and allows less skilled fisherman compete successfully with them).

That, I think, is where the recreational/commercial divide begins. We want lots of large fish so we can catch them easily and feel good about ourselves, they're happy with a more restricted (but sustained) population to keep prices up and competition down.

The current management system may very well ensure the species is not wiped out, but it also may ensure that the species is kept at a population level/size distribution that leaves the largest user group frustrated and angry. That does not represent sound fishery management.

Man i need a nap after slogging through these 4 pages. Sad thing is, I still don't know what is going on!:confused:

If you had your way the bass would eat its way out of house and home! There has to be some advocation for killing these fish...

and up until now that has been the commercial lobby because it has the funds to donate to reelection campaigns. In the past recs had virtually no voice while commercials stuffed pockets and packed meetings to ensure that the gravy train kept rolling.

It is only very recently that a somewhat strong and vocal recreational voice is beginning to be heard up and down the coast, and that voice is SF. After watching the first crash and moratorium folks decided never again was too soon and began spreading their message- preserve sportfishing for bass by making it a game fish throughout its range. Some states have done so, others have not, nor has the federal government gone so far.

I can't blame SF for being fed up with the status quo, who isn't!, and reaching for the ultimate protective measure- gamefish status.

However, I believe that if managed properly the stock can support a thriving recreational fishery, and all the related economic injections it brings, as well as a tightly controlled and strictly monitored commercial fishery.

Comms want all the fish so they can earn a living. Recs want all the fish so they are protected and can be enjoyed. Eventually compromise will be reached and the bass can be shared.

It appears that the threat of a resource grab by SF is just the thing to get everyones attention and begin some meaningful dialogue as we are doing here.

I want to say that I do not appreciate the reference toward comm. guys poaching. If one is doing something against the rules/law, they are in their own category, please do not stereotype this activity as comm. objectivity is warranted here.:yak5:

Dude dude dude woody woodrow woodski...we already have compromise that works its called a quota! get off the shrooms dude..sf doesn't represent any of my recreational friends infact they hate them and they don't even commercial fish...they represent an elitest bunch of retired doctors, lawyers and socialites that want to flyfish in the penobscot river...they do not represent the interests of the every day joe who want toi go out and take a couple fish home for dinner...again I will say it that is the rec interest group attacking a group that has never brought anything to light about how many bass get killed recreationally each year....STOP drinking the Koolaid...

...they represent an elitest bunch of retired doctors, lawyers and socialites that want to flyfish in the penobscot river...they do not represent the interests of the every day joe who want toi go out and take a couple fish home for dinner...again I will say it that is the rec interest group attacking a group that has never brought anything to light about how many bass get killed recreationally each year....STOP drinking the Koolaid...

This may be some what true of the group that started Stripers Forever but it is not a true statement today. SF has a much broader base of fisherman. Most groups start as a radical fringe but as they grow they attrack a larger group that moderates their actions. Read the history on the formation of Ducks Unlimited. Not saying that SF will ever become DU, but much of what you say about SF is the attacks made on DU in their earlier years.

I thought RFA might be the answer but IMO they are not. To much influence from the boat manufactures.

Wasn't it an elitist bunch of agenda driven wealthy earthy crunchies that got the ball rolling for bird closures.
How's that working out for the rest of us.
The more we bitch like a bunch of entitled spoiled 3 year olds, the more we weaken our commonality.
We are nothing more than a divided angry mob.
The proverbial Ship of Fools.
:doh:

...FYI, the striped bass crash at the turn of the 19th century..coincided with a serious menhaden fishery up & down the Atlantic coast. The advent of large steam power fishing vessels with large, effective, purse seines, were employed in large numbers. On shore menhaden processing facilities were tucked into just about every cove-some large..many medium and small. Perhaps they contributed to the bass population reductions during this time period.

Yes, the multiple use of our natural resources is the honorable use of our natural resources. For food, and for recreation. The striped bass fishery of today supports both commercial and recreational activities. Of all commercial gear groupings, Hook and line commercial fisheries has the lease amount of negative inpact on the echo system. So called "save the fish organizations" directing their resource grab at this group of commercial bassers.....while ignoring the huge catches of the rec/charter group is very short sided-and very selfish.

Again, with coastal mangement plans in place for maintaining the striped bass in viable numbers both for Recreational/charter and commercial interest, the striped bass IS NOT in danger.

Tackle & boating manufacturers still have a devoted striped bass customer base to procure their wares. Fishing publications have a large readership. Fish processing, wholesaling, & retail have an excellent food product made available to the fish eating consumer. All creating and fostering respective economic engines that provide jobs for us.

Multiple use is the only fair and equatible means to share the striped bass natural resource. And, there is nothing wrong with sharing.............

WHATS THE DIFFERENCE TO THE POPULATION IF TEN GUYS TAKE THE COMMERCIAL QUOTA OR 1,000 GUYS TAKE THE SAME QUOTA? sorry for the caps. If you guys really think the ASMFC is going to let the population crash again, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in purchasing.:rollem:

WHATS THE DIFFERENCE TO THE POPULATION IF TEN GUYS TAKE THE COMMERCIAL QUOTA OR 1,000 GUYS TAKE THE SAME QUOTA? sorry for the caps. If you guys really think the ASMFC is going to let the population crash again, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in purchasing.
Thanks.....thats the bridge with the pogies under it, isn't it?........hmmmmmm..:)

WHATS THE DIFFERENCE TO THE POPULATION IF TEN GUYS TAKE THE COMMERCIAL QUOTA OR 1,000 GUYS TAKE THE SAME QUOTA? sorry for the caps. If you guys really think the ASMFC is going to let the population crash again, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in purchasing.:rollem:

I think the point may be that a thousand pissed off guys will have no problem with ten pissed off guys. The rec bashing may awaken a sleeping giant.
In the end it's gonna come down to who wants it more, the many or the few.

Really, are there not more important things to want to :fight: someone over ?

I can make a long list before I get to a Fish.

............mutiple use:)............peace bro

Dude dude dude woody woodrow woodski...we already have compromise that works its called a quota! get off the shrooms dude..sf doesn't represent any of my recreational friends infact they hate them and they don't even commercial fish...they represent an elitest bunch of retired doctors, lawyers and socialites that want to flyfish in the penobscot river...they do not represent the interests of the every day joe who want toi go out and take a couple fish home for dinner...again I will say it that is the rec interest group attacking a group that has never brought anything to light about how many bass get killed recreationally each year....STOP drinking the Koolaid...

Pehaps you should try someone else's Kool-Aid. Yours appears to have fermented. Dude.

WHATS THE DIFFERENCE TO THE POPULATION IF TEN GUYS TAKE THE COMMERCIAL QUOTA OR 1,000 GUYS TAKE THE SAME QUOTA? sorry for the caps. If you guys really think the ASMFC is going to let the population crash again, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in purchasing.:rollem:

That's the best part- Lower the quota since 990 recremmerials will no longer be fishing on the striper stocks. Leaves more fish to spawn.

3 ?'s
-Do you realize the quota is based on the # of fish....not the # of fishermen my math challenged friend?
- Does recremmercial mean sells fish.......and has fun doing it?
- Was wondering...what's that CT stand for?

ASMFC bases quota on the number of fish so that maximum catch possible without crashing the stock will occur. Problem is there are many factors they don't include in calculating quota, and even more that are affecting spawning success and recruitment of juveniles that they have no way to factor into their calculations. Why can't you guys leave more than the bare minimum spawning stock biomass swimming and spawning?

Recremmercial- A recreational fisherman who calls himself a commercial fisherman since he has a license to take and sell stripers. As opposed to one who earns his living as a full time commercial fisherman. 'Having fun' is justification for depleting a resource owned by all, not to mention eating up quota true commercials could use to support their families?

Wondering if you know how to spell Soaking Wet?

Well I sure do know how to spell "Sokinwet"...it's spelled out right on my commercial permit and on the back of my boat...the one that's registered in MA.

The abbreviation for Connecticut.

Don't take any of what I have posted personally guys (S&S). My targets are any and all enemies of healthy bass stocks ;

the unsound management models of the ASMFC,
inneffective NMFS/USCG fisheries enforcement programs,
industrial menhaden seiners,
farmers using unsound fertilizing practices,
livestock operations allowing underprocessed animal waste to contaminate the Chesapeake,
rogue gillnetters,
EEZ poaching rec or charter boats,
biased DMF leaders,
unscrupulous recs who violate bag limits or size regs,
and, yes, recremmercial striper fishermen in MA.

...FYI, the striped bass crash at the turn of the 19th century..coincided with a serious menhaden fishery up & down the Atlantic coast. The advent of large steam power fishing vessels with large, effective, purse seines, were employed in large numbers. On shore menhaden processing facilities were tucked into just about every cove-some large..many medium and small. Perhaps they contributed to the bass population reductions during this time period.

Yes, the multiple use of our natural resources is the honorable use of our natural resources. For food, and for recreation. The striped bass fishery of today supports both commercial and recreational activities. Of all commercial gear groupings, Hook and line commercial fisheries has the lease amount of negative inpact on the echo system. So called "save the fish organizations" directing their resource grab at this group of commercial bassers.....while ignoring the huge catches of the rec/charter group is very short sided-and very selfish.

Again, with coastal mangement plans in place for maintaining the striped bass in viable numbers both for Recreational/charter and commercial interest, the striped bass IS NOT in danger.

Tackle & boating manufacturers still have a devoted striped bass customer base to procure their wares. Fishing publications have a large readership. Fish processing, wholesaling, & retail have an excellent food product made available to the fish eating consumer. All creating and fostering respective economic engines that provide jobs for us.

Multiple use is the only fair and equatible means to share the striped bass natural resource. And, there is nothing wrong with sharing.............

yup, and don't forget the serious toxic metals discharged into the watersheds/rivers during the industrial revolution.. perhaps right up 'till the 1960's ...ie electro-plating methods. (zinc etc)

ASMFC bases quota on the number of fish so that maximum catch possible without crashing the stock will occur. Problem is there are many factors they don't include in calculating quota, and even more that are affecting spawning success and recruitment of juveniles that they have no way to factor into their calculations. Why can't you guys leave more than the bare minimum spawning stock biomass swimming and spawning?


Put as politely as I know how, you simply don't know what you are talking about.

The "quota" in terms of any fully recovered stock, which includes striped bass, is targeted at being the Maximum Sustainable yield, also known as MSY. That is the diametric opposite as the bare minimum to avoid crashing the stock. The Bmsy is the amount of fish that would allow the same quota, year after year and maintain the same biomass.

They do take recruitment into account in estimating the population and thus the MSY (or quota). Any factor that they do not take into account in setting this years quota will automatically be taken into account in next year's stock assessment as the stock goes up or down and that will be factored into the the next years quota. If everything was 100% accurate and there was no natural variations they could just set the quota this year and not have to change it as infinitum. It is because of the inherent inaccuracy of the stock assessment (population) and the natural year-to-year variations that they go through the quota setting exercise every year.

Thanks for being polite Mike. I appreciate it.

My concern is that they set the quota, based on MSY as you clarified, but they have no way to quantify losses of spawning stock biomass to 1) disease outbreaks- as is happening now, 2) poaching as the fish are not recorded as mortality, 3) black market commericals- not reported as mortality, 4) recreational catch not reported/recorded, 5) sea herring bycatch not reported as mortality, 6) high grading by unscrupulous recs/comms etc. etc. etc...

With so much unaccounted for mortality how can they possibly determine an amount of biomass, ie quota, that can be removed and still maintain MSY?

I hope you, or someone else, can shed some light on this.

The base of the VPA (Virtual population Analysis) is sampling. This is true for any species not just bass. Take a look at the sotck assessment for weakfish (sequetog) and you'll see that the biomass is estimate at an alltime low. Look a little further and you'll see that they don't know what is killing all the fish, they just know that something is. The similar model for bass would take all mortality into account. To put it simply this years estimated biomass is the sum of last year's biomass minus all mortality plus all recruitment. They don't need to know what the source of the mortality is to estimate the biomass. Once the estimate the total mortality then they can subtract the known mortality factors and then try to estimate what is causing the unknown sources of mortality. But that has nothing to do with setting the quotas. If they set the quota too high this year it will automagically be compensated in the next year.

The base of the VPA (Virtual population Analysis) is sampling. This is true for any species not just bass. Take a look at the sotck assessment for weakfish (sequetog) and you'll see that the biomass is estimate at an alltime low. Look a little further and you'll see that they don't know what is killing all the fish, they just know that something is. The similar model for bass would take all mortality into account. To put it simply this years estimated biomass is the sum of last year's biomass minus all mortality plus all recruitment. They don't need to know what the source of the mortality is to estimate the biomass. Once the estimate the total mortality then they can subtract the known mortality factors and then try to estimate what is causing the unknown sources of mortality. But that has nothing to do with setting the quotas. If they set the quota too high this year it will automagically be compensated in the next year.

The weakfish stock is listed as depleted to an all time low. While ASMFC is saying over fishing isn't the problem, it is the only thing they have immediate control over. So how does ASMFC address this.

"Upon receiving this stock information in 2009, the Weakfish Management Board approved new measures for implementation in 2010. Addendum IV to Amendment 4 requires states to implement a one fish recreational creel limit, 100 pound commercial trip limit, 100 pound commercial bycatch limit during closed seasons, and 100 undersized fish per trip allowance for the finfish trawl fishery."

Here is a fishery at an all time low and ASMFC is still not willing to stop fishing for them. This is why I have little faith in ASMFC stepping in to address any striper issues until they're in real deep trouble.

The weakfish stock is listed as depleted to an all time low. While ASMFC is saying over fishing isn't the problem, it is the only thing they have immediate control over. So how does ASMFC address this.

"Upon receiving this stock information in 2009, the Weakfish Management Board approved new measures for implementation in 2010. Addendum IV to Amendment 4 requires states to implement a one fish recreational creel limit, 100 pound commercial trip limit, 100 pound commercial bycatch limit during closed seasons, and 100 undersized fish per trip allowance for the finfish trawl fishery."

Here is a fishery at an all time low and ASMFC is still not willing to stop fishing for them. This is why I have little faith in ASMFC stepping in to address any striper issues until they're in real deep trouble.

The commercial limits are simply designed to allow fisherman to land fish that they are catching anyway, makes no sense to throw them back over the side, dead. That wouldn't help the fish recover anyway. The one fish per person recreational limits will effectively stop most people from fishing for them, but still allow the Accidentally caught fish to be kept. Again, probably a good portion of those fish would die anyway. We have to face facts, fishing mortality is, at least until we adopt real ecosystem management, the only aspect of mortality that we can control. IMHO the proposed weakfish limits are as close to zero as we can get without banning all fishing.

Coast Guard and National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration personnel combined efforts Tuesday to stop illegal striped bass fishing off Oregon Inlet and found one vessel with illegally caught fish that had more than 2,900 pounds of fish aboard.

The economic pressures being felt nationwide and the meteorological conditions driving the striped bass population farther off shore into warmer waters have set the stage for a situation that may entice fishermen to break the law, according to a news release from the Fifth Coast Guard District.

In an effort to ensure the longevity of the striped bass population and maintain a level playing field for all fishermen, federal authorities are taking action.

On Tuesday, in response to multiple reports of commercial and recreational striped bass fishing within the Exclusive Economic Zone, the Coast Guard and NOAA conducted a joint effort to curtail this illegal activity.

Fishing for striped bass is permitted within state waters, but catching or possessing striped bass outside three nautical miles from shore is a violation of federal regulations. In an effort to catch fishermen participating in this illegal activity, the Coast Guard mounted a patrol within known fishing grounds off Oregon Inlet, using Station Oregon Inlet’s small boats with the assistance of additional boarding team personnel from Station Hatteras Inlet, the release said.

One of the boarding teams sighted the fishing vessel Lady Samaira as it was heading back into port. It was within the Exclusive Economic Zone when the team boarded the vessel to ensure compliance with both fishery and vessel safety regulations.

Their investigation revealed more than 150 striped bass aboard the vessel. The boarding team documented their findings and relayed all pertinent information to NOAA, the regulatory agency for such violations, for further guidance. As a result of the boarding team’s findings, NOAA asked the Coast Guard to direct the Lady Samaira to port where NOAA agents met the vessel.

When the vessel moored in North Carolina there were less fish aboard, approximately 100 striped bass. The fish, weighing in at almost 3,000 pounds, were abandoned by the vessel’s captain to the NOAA Office of Law Enforcement.

Typically, if less than 10 illegal fish are discovered, in addition to having to abandon their catch the master is levied a $100 fine per fish and the matter is closed. In this case, the NOAA OLE investigation continues, and the final action to be taken against the master or vessel has yet to be determined.

This case, while significant, is just one example of illegal striped bass fishing activity recently interdicted by federal, state, and local authorities, the Coast Guard said.


Maybe the ASMFC request had some effect?

Greed and fishing go hand in hand.
Nature of the beast.

New head of NE EPA: But from his career – almost 20 years of it as executive director of Save the Bay – it is apparent the axiom also applies to Spalding. He is the first Rhode Islander to direct the regional EPA office.....

Warwick Beacon - Investment in economy an investment in our future says Spalding (http://www.warwickonline.com/view/full_story_news/6395618/article-Investment-in-economy-an-investment-in-our-future--says-Spalding?instance=home_news_right)