According to an op ed piece in of all places,
today's NY Times, the Arizona law is identical
to the Federal law that Obama will not enforce.
Prof. Kris Kobach does a good job of explaining
away the major objections, and be certain of
this, if the NY Times publishes it then you know
they can't hide under the lefty spin.
The New York Times - Breaking News, World News & Multimedia (http://www.nytimes.com)

I'm sure this'll be swiftly moved to the political forum but, this is probably one of the most impressive pieces of legislation a state has come out with in a long time. Apparently, Utah is on track to draft a similar piece of legislation.
http://www.sltrib.com/Nation%20and%20World/ci_14963407?source=pkg

I never understood why the term ILLEGAL, meaning against the law, changed to being rewarded for breaking the law... simply enforce EXISTING laws... My entire family immigrated here from Poland... they had this little inconvenient obstacle standing in their way called the Atlantic ocean... they couldnt sneak over at night and collect welfare... When my father came here in 1969 with no connections or contacts and couldnt speak english, he wouldnt be caught dead taking welfare or a handout... He had his health and a thing called PRIDE and self-respect... He came here to work, learn the language at night school, and CONTRIBUTE to this country... not suck it dry while driving an unregistered, uninsured car while collecting checks. I'm not anti-immigrant, I'm anti-ILLEGAL immigrant... Polish, Mexican, or whatever... When I'm in Europe, you better make damn sure you have your passport with you at all times... and when you are asked to show your papers, I dont complain that I feel discriminated against or that my civil rights have been violated... I look like I'm from another country, and the Authorities want to make sure I'm there legitimately... Where's the problem with that?

I never understood why the term ILLEGAL, meaning against the law, changed to being rewarded for breaking the law... simply enforce EXISTING laws... My entire family immigrated here from Poland... they had this little inconvenient obstacle standing in their way called the Atlantic ocean... they couldnt sneak over at night and collect welfare... When my father came here in 1969 with no connections or contacts and couldnt speak english, he wouldnt be caught dead taking welfare or a handout... He had his health and a thing called PRIDE and self-respect... He came here to work, learn the language at night school, and CONTRIBUTE to this country... not suck it dry while driving an unregistered, uninsured car while collecting checks. I'm not anti-immigrant, I'm anti-ILLEGAL immigrant... Polish, Mexican, or whatever... When I'm in Europe, you better make damn sure you have your passport with you at all times... and when you are asked to show your papers, I dont complain that I feel discriminated against or that my civil rights have been violated... I look like I'm from another country, and the Authorities want to make sure I'm there legitimately... Where's the problem with that?

Very, very, very well put!! :cheers:

Democrats can't support tighter restrictions on illegals because they receive a huge portion of the Hispanic and minority vote - especially on a mid-term year when a lot of them are scratching away to try and keep their jobs.

Good!!!!!Good for them,for standing up and getting the job done with out the Gov't consent,I hope that this snowballs into other states jumpping on board as well.

When my father came here in 1969 with no connections or contacts and couldnt speak english, he wouldnt be caught dead taking welfare or a handout... He had his health and a thing called PRIDE and self-respect... He came here to work, learn the language at night school, and CONTRIBUTE to this country...

God Bless your Dad for becoming a true patriotic American Citizen.

I was listening to a Providence station today, and a Pol from RI said he was sponsoring a similar bill there. Everybody seems to agree with this solution, but when the Fed raided the sweatshop in New Bedford, all the liberals came out of the woodwork and screamed foul. Ted Kennedy, Barney Frank, the Catholic clergy, etc. Sending illegals home is not a new thing. It has been done a number of times, as lately as after WW2. This was to create work for returning vets. I agree that people should only come into the country legally and be good citizens. Both of my parents were born here. I was born here, schooled here, served in the military, and while I was in the military, I learned that my maternal grandfather was an illegal alien. He was picked up by a British sea captain and his wife while wandering on a dock in Turkey. He was a small child, starving and could speak a little French and a little English. The captain died when my grandfather was 18, and he stepped off the boat in New York. He took the captain's name. This blemish on my record prevented me from getting security clearance for any critical jobs in the service. That fact is much the same as President Obama, so if he can stay, so can I. My parents, my children, and my grandchildren are good, hard working, contributing people. For me to condemn all illegals would be less than sincere. I do, however think we have such a problem with illegals, that laws like these are needed.

The more states that enforce illegal immigration statutes, as currently defined by the FEDS, the better chance that our families can obtain gainful employment, beyond flipping burgers with BS and MS degrees.

Glad to see that some eyes are being opened.

Obviously I've been B*slapped in several forums dating several years back.

Check out infowars.com, before the internet is determined to be a threat.

Beyond all that, it is time to welcome the pelagic species back to the New England waters. This weekend will be phenomenal, last was only fantastic.
:buds::cheers:

If people don't like the laws in any state, or country then don't come here.... This is a bunch of crap.

This country is so worried about being politically correct and this that or the other about religion, ethnicity and god knows what else that all we do is make things worse,,,,,,, Your either an American or not,, and if not then you should not have any or the rights afforded to Americans

Someone needs to step up and tell people this is the way it is, If you don't like it then DON'T COME HERE. Maybe Arizona is tired of Shipping them back as well.......


Lets face it,,, Many of the border states have a problem with crime,,, and a large amount of the crimes are committed by people who should not be here,,,

I have traveled to quite a few places around the world that keep your passport, make you fill out a bunch of forms, only issue a 72 hours visa (which you must have on you at ALL TIMES) and if you don't follow the rules they come get you and tell you to GET OUT of their country or throw you in jail,,,,,,, :uhuh::uhuh:

I hate whiners,,,

I believe Obama and his Holden took an oath to uphold the laws. Can you say...Impeach?

Someone needs to step up and tell people this is the way it is, If you don't like it then DON'T COME HERE.
For many people that's not really the point. I think most Americans support enforcement of our immigration laws and don't think rampant illegal immigration is a good thing. Most would think the Federal government needs to do more.

The issue is, should the burden of immigration law be shifted to the states who are then given legal authority to profile people in the US?

This is a bad idea IMHO. If I was a perfectly legal Hispanic US citizen in Arizona I'd be paranoid as hell the police were watching me.

The police are either going to take a ton of heat for profiling (and harassing) US citizens, or they're going to be gun shy and the bill won't help anyway.

Best case is this bill get's killed and triggers some bi-partisan action in Congress.

The bill as-is certainly doesn't reflect what I thought made American special.

-spence

I never understood why the term ILLEGAL, meaning against the law, changed to being rewarded for breaking the law... simply enforce EXISTING laws... My entire family immigrated here from Poland... they had this little inconvenient obstacle standing in their way called the Atlantic ocean... they couldnt sneak over at night and collect welfare... When my father came here in 1969 with no connections or contacts and couldnt speak english, he wouldnt be caught dead taking welfare or a handout... He had his health and a thing called PRIDE and self-respect... He came here to work, learn the language at night school, and CONTRIBUTE to this country... not suck it dry while driving an unregistered, uninsured car while collecting checks. I'm not anti-immigrant, I'm anti-ILLEGAL immigrant... Polish, Mexican, or whatever... When I'm in Europe, you better make damn sure you have your passport with you at all times... and when you are asked to show your papers, I dont complain that I feel discriminated against or that my civil rights have been violated... I look like I'm from another country, and the Authorities want to make sure I'm there legitimately... Where's the problem with that?

Nice work.

This was decided in a supreme court decision in 1986, completely legal, much ado about nothing. Gives the moonbats something to whine about though. God knows they never research anything, because research might get in the way of a good whimper.

According to an op ed piece in of all places,
today's NY Times, the Arizona law is identical
to the Federal law that Obama will not enforce.
Prof. Kris Kobach does a good job of explaining
away the major objections, and be certain of
this, if the NY Times publishes it then you know
they can't hide under the lefty spin.
The New York Times - Breaking News, World News & Multimedia (http://www.nytimes.com)

You know, my opinon is that the president cannot suspend or order anyone to not enforce any law, under any circumstances. If he does so, he could be charged as a consprirator, will he, certainly not, but technically......................

For many people that's not really the point. I think most Americans support enforcement of our immigration laws and don't think rampant illegal immigration is a good thing. Most would think the Federal government needs to do more.

The issue is, should the burden of immigration law be shifted to the states who are then given legal authority to profile people in the US?

This is a bad idea IMHO. If I was a perfectly legal Hispanic US citizen in Arizona I'd be paranoid as hell the police were watching me.

The police are either going to take a ton of heat for profiling (and harassing) US citizens, or they're going to be gun shy and the bill won't help anyway.

Best case is this bill get's killed and triggers some bi-partisan action in Congress.

The bill as-is certainly doesn't reflect what I thought made American special.

-spence

a perfect trail of intelligent posts followed by an articulate moronic response by "you know who"
So Arizona, a state with millions of Hispanic citizens is suddenly going to be plunged into a police state as Hispanic citizens are coralled into lines to prove their citizenship....
Will it be Carlos in his Toyota Camry dropping off his kids on the way to school?
Jorge in his UPS truck? Maria selling girl scout cookies? Or Father Juan at St Mary's ?
OR maybe, just maybe common sense will prevail.......will it be the nameless guys standing on the corner at 7:30 am looking for day labor work?

a perfect trail of intelligent posts followed by an articulate moronic response by "you know who"
So Arizona, a state with millions of Hispanic citizens is suddenly going to be plunged into a police state as Hispanic citizens are coralled into lines to prove their citizenship....
Will it be Carlos in his Toyota Camry dropping off his kids on the way to school?
Jorge in his UPS truck? Maria selling girl scout cookies? Or Father Juan at St Mary's ?
OR maybe, just maybe common sense will prevail.......will it be the nameless guys standing on the corner at 7:30 am looking for day labor work?

There were 5 standing infront of Riverhead Building Supply this morning.

There were 5 standing infront of Riverhead Building Supply this morning.

and if they are citizens or legal aliens, god bless them, I hope they find work, if not, ship 'em home. There is no room at the inn.

http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/129128361319755596.jpg

Then walking back to the car I almost get hit by a crappy little toyota pickup with Illinois plates.

Illinois?
Really?

Spence... I agree with some of what your thinking but ...
RIJIMMY said it right,,, A little common sense,,,,

If they can make our soldiers try to differentiate in a split second on who to shoot back at then I am pretty sure all those smart people in Arizona who enforce the law will have plenty of time to use a little common sense....

Not to mention,, if your legal and legit then really what is there to worry about,,,

as far as profiling,,, I look at it like your trying to find a particular car and most people want a specific color,,,, brand, model, year,,, its not about race,,, its about IDENTIFYING,,,

I know this wouldn't pacify the idiots who think illegals should be given licenses, health care and a free education but...

Make the inquiry to legal citizenship a secondary offense. If a cop has to deal with you in any way, they can ask to see your papers. What's so difficult about keeping your Visa on you? When I'm outside my house, there are two hours in which my license isn't within arms reach - when I'm at the gym.

From what I understand, the AZ law mirrors the federal law rather closely. With that in mind, the smaller more individual cases can be handled by local police while INS can go after the factories and hotels that hire hundreds of these people.

On an employment aspect, where's the downfall??
-we've had near 10% unemployment with legal Americans *looking* for work but unable to find companies hiring
-many of these illegals are sending their money to Mexico (bad for *our* economy)
-employment taxes are not being paid due to the jobs being under-the-table

Aside from cries about racial profiling and the baseless "this isn't the American Way", I have yet to see a single negative to enforcing (this isn't a brand new concept) immigration laws.

[QUOTE=spence;765348]

The police are either going to take a ton of heat for profiling (and harassing) US citizens, or they're going to be gun shy and the bill won't help anyway.


The police will not be profiling. Your president when speaking to the people of this country on national TV the other day made sure to leave out that in the Arizona law that a cop can not just stop you because your Mexican. They must stop you for some other violation such as speeding, running a red light, not using your turn signal, robbing a bank before they can ask you for your legal papers or green card.

The law is like the seat belt law, can't be stopped just for not wearing your seat belt. So you just can't be stopped because you are Mexican, Hispanic, Brazilian etc:.

The police will not be profiling. Your president when speaking to the people of this country on national TV the other day made sure to leave out that in the Arizona law that a cop can not just stop you because your Mexican. They must stop you for some other violation such as speeding, running a red light, not using your turn signal, robbing a bank before they can ask you for your legal papers or green card.

The law is like the seat belt law, can't be stopped just for not wearing your seat belt. So you just can't be stopped because you are Mexican, Hispanic, Brazilian etc:.

Hmmm... it was my understanding that "reasonable suspicion" is all that police need. Do you have a link? If you're right, it further invalidates the opponents arguments.

We use reasonable suspicion everyday. The lawbreakers understand it completely and the people we mistakenly talk to understand it also when we are investigating a crime. We explain ourselves, appologize and go on our way, (insert the stupid cop story here). The "illegal" people are just trying their case/problem in the court of public concern. I once was in court standing adjacent to a trooper who was asked at at sidebar hearing by the publically appointed attorney asked the trooper if he gave/read the brazilian guy his rights. Trooper said no I didn't. I don't have too. He is not a citizen of this country. I let him use the phone, but said nothing else to him. With that the trooper stated verbatim the first paragraph of the constitution. The judge got up and siad I have to think about this for a little while, I'll be right back.

Judge came back and said while the trooper was probably right we'll give the guy a break.

[QUOTE=spence;765348]

The police are either going to take a ton of heat for profiling (and harassing) US citizens, or they're going to be gun shy and the bill won't help anyway.


The police will not be profiling. Your president when speaking to the people of this country on national TV the other day made sure to leave out that in the Arizona law that a cop can not just stop you because your Mexican. They must stop you for some other violation such as speeding, running a red light, not using your turn signal, robbing a bank before they can ask you for your legal papers or green card.

The law is like the seat belt law, can't be stopped just for not wearing your seat belt. So you just can't be stopped because you are Mexican, Hispanic, Brazilian etc:.

All true.... but why let the truth get in the way :wall:

An Update:
Arizona lawmakers OK several changes to immigration law - Phoenix Arizona news from ABC15 News | ABC15.com (http://www.abc15.com/content/news/phoenixmetro/central/story/Arizona-lawmakers-OK-several-changes-to/qNpxW7Jonkm9shejhnkiSQ.cspx)

Some updates and clarifications.

An Update:
Arizona lawmakers OK several changes to immigration law - Phoenix Arizona news from ABC15 News | ABC15.com (http://www.abc15.com/content/news/phoenixmetro/central/story/Arizona-lawmakers-OK-several-changes-to/qNpxW7Jonkm9shejhnkiSQ.cspx)

Some updates and clarifications.

And that law does not take effect for 90 days.

Now go wash your face, you look like you just woke up. :)

And that law does not take effect for 90 days.

Now go wash your face, you look like you just woke up. :)

The original Immigration bill that everyone is all huffy-puffy about doesn't either. Unless I'm missing something :smash::smash:

The law states clearly of no racial profiling. Also states that they can be questioned about legal status after being stopped for another violation.

Are you looking for verbiage stating the seat belt law? You will not find it.

The law states clearly of no racial profiling. Also states that they can be questioned about legal status after being stopped for another violation.

Are you looking for verbiage stating the seat belt law? You will not find it.

I was curious about the secondary offense issue when asking for papers, not the seat belt law. Since my last post, I've come across reports on both sides - some report that they can stop and ask anyone as long as there's reasonable suspicion, others report that asking for their papers cannot be the only reason to stop someone.
:huh:

I'm not sure I understand the whole innocent untill proven guilty thing.
The IRS can send you a bill and you have to prove that you don't owe it.
Get pulled over in Ma and the officer thinks you were drinking they can arrest you and your license will be suspended and you will pay a huge fine without any prove that you had a drink.
I would think the legal US immigrants would want enforcement.

And how about those violent protest by illegals?

To me that reads that in Mass you can be convicted of DWI without a field sobriety test, chemical test or breathalyzer.
Or are you arrested for refusal to submit to testing?
There's a big difference - the guy who passes any of the sobriety tests has not been drinking, and the guy who fails or refuses usually has been drinking. People might tell you later they had not, but lying goes with having a substance abuse problem.

To me that reads that in Mass you can be convicted of DWI without a field sobriety test, chemical test or breathalyzer.
Or are you arrested for refusal to submit to testing?
There's a big difference - the guy who passes any of the sobriety tests has not been drinking, and the guy who fails or refuses usually has been drinking. People might tell you later they had not, but lying goes with having a substance abuse problem.

And asking for ID and refusing to show one should result in deportation. Most people that refuse to show an ID are guilty. Lying goes with having a citizenship problem.

Fair enough. I don't think the issue needs exaggerating - the truth is bad enough.

a perfect trail of intelligent posts followed by an articulate moronic response by "you know who"
So Arizona, a state with millions of Hispanic citizens is suddenly going to be plunged into a police state as Hispanic citizens are coralled into lines to prove their citizenship....
Will it be Carlos in his Toyota Camry dropping off his kids on the way to school?
Jorge in his UPS truck? Maria selling girl scout cookies? Or Father Juan at St Mary's ?
OR maybe, just maybe common sense will prevail.......will it be the nameless guys standing on the corner at 7:30 am looking for day labor work?

I guess I might be a bit offended if your accusation wasn't so clumsy.

What's funny is that there are two very appropriate anecdotes from the Arizona border with Mexico, and the Sheriff's who preside over these counties.

One has come out with strong words that the original bill is racist and will absolutely encourage racial profiling.

The other is known for using strong tactics himself, and is the recipient of numerous accusations of racial profiling.

Not to mention that immigration is generally a Federal issue. How quickly they caved on amending the bill is a pretty good indicator of where they think they stood.

More fodder for real Federal reform.

-spence