Can you use a reel with a wider spool like a VS or ZB with these types of guides? Would a rod cast any worse with these types of guides and a vs/zb than it would with a large collector guide and a vs/zb? Also concept guides may be the wrong term but I'm referring to the type of guides that come on St. Croix Legend surf rods.

Absolutely. I re-wrapped my sur1266 with tiny guides concept style 3 years ago, small collector (20mm) with a VS200 rod was a major rocket launcher factory. Now it's freakin bad ass.

One of my fishing partners picked up the 10' Mojo Surf for this season and has a VS250 on it. No issues so far. I test cast it a few times with a bank sinker just to give it a shot. It smoked the sinker to the horizon. I was impressed, but will not be wrapping any rods that way for myself any time soon.

All my rods have the Lowrider guides. They're made for braided line and are suppose to give you added distance, it has for me. If you are looking at using them on your rods, it would be helpful to test your rod with different guide placements till you find the correct placements. These guide were originally intended for 12'+ rods and the first guide at a distance of 47" from the spool face. Others have used them on shorter rods with great success. These guides are also lighter and would lower the overall weight of your rod if that matters.

As Tobias mentioned the overall length of the rod will come into play more than the spool diameter/circumference issues. Fuji has a great chart but its strictly theorhetical. It gives u #s to start with but its all test casting after that. I'm sure others more well versed will chime in.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I'm sure others more well versed will chime in.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Wait a minute here, based on what your rod looks like I would defer to you first on this stuff...in fact, I'm going to do a 1322 just like yours if you're kind enough to share the specs with me...:want:

Yep, I'm begging.

I recently rewrapped a GSB1321M with Titanium Coated Wire Frame guides by pacbay. These have no inserts. The idea was that since I am so clumsy and hard on gear, I would gladly sarifice a bit of performance for durability(broke way too many hardloys). Started with a 30, 7 guides down to 12's. I have to say that while it looks a little weird, it casts great! Lighter and more responsive than with the previous setup with Hardloys. I use a ZB25 on it and certainly see no lack of distance ad possibly a small gain. The rod just seems to fish better.

The guides you are referring to are LCSGs, also called lowriders. They come in size 20 down to 6, have a long footprint, and do best with long rods (11 feet and up).

The other concept style guide is a BMNAG which come size 40 to 8 and are much more like standard guides with a u shaped frame.

Lowriders, the LCSGs, tend to be heavy (at least the sic versions, there is an alconite version as well) unless you go to the titanium versions (T-LCSG) which are very nice and very pricey (about $160-180 for a set and a tip to match).

Because the lowriders use a small first ring, the first collector has to be mounted further out the rod than "normal". On rods 11 feet and up this is no issue and they are a popular guide for long rods casting thin braid at high velocity even from very large spooled reels.

When you get into shorter rods, things get trickier. You can still use them, but the distance to the first collector needs to be optimized by testing and often seems to be specific for one reel/line combination. The other issue is the guide's long foot print that inhibits the flex of the tip section some. The way around this is to run the first several guides as LCSGs (say 20-12m-10) then go the rest of the way to the tip with closely spaced small guides of a different type.

On shorter rods, it is not clear to me that they add any great distance advantage, but if you pay for the titanium they do make for a much lighter crisper set up. The titanium also lasts forever.

I've got a GSB 1321L built with the T-Lcsgs and love it. I plan to rebuild a ssu1201mh with the modified T-LCSG to TKWSG setup....but I suspect it won't be any better a rod than if I just used BMNAG's starting with a 30-20-12-10-10-10-10-10-tip (which is one helluva lot cheaper, simpler, and probably more versatile). We'll see.

I have all my rods wrapped with the bmnag's 30 25 20 16 12 12 12 12 their on a 1205 arra and 1321 arra there is a difference indistance , but not a great difference. I find the biggest factor is the guides are a lot lighter which makes the rod more responsive, and with braid combo your rod will be way more sensitive. you will feel your lures work and hits alot more. I wouldnt go back to the standard 50 40 and so on.

By the way, there is another option now for anti-fouling larger sized guides called T-KWSG (double foot) and TKLSG (single foot). These come in sizes 50 down to size 4. They are available in Sic and Alconite. They look something like a BMNAG but are titanium, a bit higher (I think) and canted forward to shed line loops. They are expensive (a single size 50 is about 90 bucks) and meant for short tuna rods where big spinning reels are mounted very close to the collector guide but guys are starting to use the smaller sizes (30 on down) as they would BMNAG's on surf rods to get very light, very corrosion resistant setups that shed line loops better than the BMNAGs. It is not clear that they are as strong as the BMNAG's, however. I'm waiting for Back Beach to drop a few hundred bucks and figure that all out.

Numbskull summarizes it well.

I will add that if you are not using braid , stick to the modified COF build.

Even if you are using braid , unless the LC's are put on the rod properly for your specific rod , reel, braid , you will have a lousy performing rod.


The LC's were conceived to compete with the Interline Rods. That is the rods where the line runs inside the blank. They are designed with the long slope which minimizes the braid looping around and catching the guides when the line speed overruns the guides. This happens on long rods when a powerful caster is really laying into the lure , jig , etc. Most guys will ever see this happen on a shorter rod. Also , some of the builders who account for zillions of the rods built with LC guides , did it so the owner could use a spinner or conventional reel on those rods.

The first guide should definitely be mounted backwards. the second and third may also need to be mounted backwards but you need to test cast to determine this. You also need to locate that first LC correctly or the line will bunch up there.

I am happy to see people mentioning that they change to MN's or something similar rather than use the LC's close to the tip of a typical surf rod. I had a long , hard battle arguing that with people from all over the USA and the world in fact on the SOL rodboard. I think LC's near the tip make the rod lumpy in a stress test and therefore i don't like them there.

Now , if I had a big spooled VS or ZB reel , I would have to base my decision of whether to go Modified COF or Concept ( fuji or NGC not LC low rider) or Low Rider depending on a number of variables.

All Concept rods are not Low Riders. All Lowriders should utilies the thinking of "Concept " guide layouts but not excatly the same way as either the Fuji Concept or the NGC.

I am very dismayed when I read a whole thread about guide layouts and desires to use Low Riders , Concept (FUJI or NGC) and nobody at all in the whole thread mentions the word "Choker" but everybody talks about exact placements of the gathering guides. Its the biggest giveaway that people are simply repeating what they hear (all be it wrong) rather than giving advice based on really knowing what they are doing. Find out what gathering guide , reduction guides , choker guide and running guides mean if you are going to try to build a rod using any of the guide layout systems mentioned here. The few extra yards you may get with a perfectly done layout are just not worth the trouble you could possibly get yourself into by doing it wrong.

If you don't know exactly what all this means , then you are just guessing when you try to build a rod to optimize distance , etc by using any of the previously mentioned guide layouts.


Now if you don't want to talk to a builder and have him build the rod , I would strongly suggest that for a rod using a VS or ZB reel you try to cookbook an NGC rod build using the MN guides and stay away from the Low Riders.


Anyway , I could go on for hours about this stuff but I'll summarize by saying you'll get your best distance increase by selecting the correct blank and locating the reel seat so that you can maiximize your own casting ability. If you are a good caster , a longer rod is better but if you can't handle the length , longer is worse and some fishing spots, etc can make longer impractical. Now if you can handle the rod and the reel seat is located so that you can maximize your own casting ability , then you want to buy the highest quality blanks made to maximize casting distance. Some rod blanks like Century and Ziplex , etc are just going to have more distance potential than a GSB Lami. After you maximize all this , then practice like hell. Then , start worrying about getting into specific guide layouts that may get you 5 more yards on a cast.

Mike I had both my customs wrapped with these guides, they are sick!!

side my side with the rod from last year, same blank with regular fujis. im getting about 30 yards more with the lowriders.

i use a 250 or 275 on my 11ft rods.

also seems to make the rod flex more evenly when you get a nice fish on, but they could just be the blank or me thinking its better,

i have the alconte concept lowrders on my cts 1201 with a zb 25- it's a rocket launcher for sure!

I'm just glad I don't have to cast far. This stuff baffles me. 30 yds seems like a lot, is that like a 30% improvement so now you are casting 130 yds or 390 feet instead of 100 yds?