View Full Version : Yamaha F225 (4 Stroke) vs. Yamaha Z250 (2 stroke) HPDI


fishsmith
03-14-2003, 07:44 AM
My buddy is buying a new 2320 Parker Sport Cabin with every conceivable option, but he's unsure of what power to use and asked if I would post this question for him (you'll see this on iboats and tht):

I am finally ready to buy the boat of my dreams and am not sure what to do from the power standpoint. My options are the F225 or the Z250 Yamaha motor. From my reading, it seems as though this is a no brainer, the 4 stroke takes the cake, however the salesman recommends the two stroke. My main concern is fuel economy and Oil usage, the operating costs of the boat. The other concern is cost, but these engines are about the same price. Does anyone have any information that will push me in either direction? Any response is greatly appreciated.

179
03-14-2003, 07:53 AM
fishsmith,
I have read alot on this comparison and if you go over to tht.com you will find alot of information. If it were me if the 4-stroke 225 is enough power for the boat it's a no brainer imo. The fuel economy will be much better especially at low rpm, you will not have the hassle and expense of adding oil, there will also be no fumes. Now with all this said the 250, will be a faster motor to plane and top end. If you are into speed get the 250hp 2-stroke.

From an investment standpoint future resale of the boat if you decide to sell in the future will be greater with the 4-stroke......I guess the only question is will the 225hp be enough hp for that particular boat?

I do know there are alot of heavy 23' boats out there running the 225hp Yamaha and Honda engines and most seem to be very pleased with performance, and economy...

Is it possible to sea trial the boat?:confused:

fishsmith
03-14-2003, 08:06 AM
179 thanks for the reply,
No boats are available for sea trial. The inventory is light too, they all have to be ordered (this one's arrival date is in early June).

fishsmith
03-14-2003, 08:42 AM
Just for comparison purposes here are some more responses from other sites. I'll keep adding to this reply as more info comes in. Yamamma's are pretty popular engines, so maybe this info will be used in a future search:

scorecard:
4stroke = 16 votes
2stroke = 6 votes

1)BOTH ARE GOOD ENGINES but i think your freind would want the performance of the 250 hpdi as the f225 ferforms closer to the 2oo hpdi.they will be about the same as far as fuel usage granted you have the oil usage on the hpdi but it's not that bad considering the xtra get up & go under full load you would get from the 250.also don't forget you have the the oil change on the four stroke.good luck on your frends new boat

2)I would opt for the 250 Hpdi. Here are my reason's 1-The oil & gas consumption & noise would not be a factor. 2- The maintenance on the 4 stroke will be more. 3- The Hpdi will be a better performer ( out of the hole better 7 better in a following sea ). I have run twin 115 - 4's & was very happy w/them for the exception of get up & go. I've been on boat's w/the 225 -4 & boat's w/200 Hpdi's & the Hpdi's are better.
Also as the above post stated U have to change the motor oil every 100 hour's. There's alot more maintenance w/the 4's. If U don't use the boat alot there's no saving's buying a 4.I just orderd a new boat & went w/the 200 Hpdi's & I use my boat almost every day the season. Just my 0.02.

3)It's a good bet that the 4-stroke will give you much better fuel economy than the 2-stroke. The difference in oil comsuption will be less also, as the 4-stroke does not burn oil. Just needs a regular change. Since preformance is not a top priority and the cost is about the same, it is a no brainer!! Mr Forktail will be along later with more info.

4) for average rec use I would get the 250HPDI... If he used the boat 300-400 hours a year... I might go to the 4-stroke.
**I think he'll do 300 + hrs**

5) that's a heavy boat. You're going to need the 250hp. A 225 may be slightyly underpowered. At times, you'll wish you had more. Fuel consumption should be very close between the 2.

6) Just a comment about performance of the 4 stroke. I have a friend who has a 27 ft. Eastern, Chesapeake Model, very similar but larger than a Parker 25 ft. Sport Cabin, equipped with a Honda 225 four stroke and he tops out at 43 miles per hour via GPS. I own a Yamaha F100 on a 23 ft. Carolina skiff and I top out at 42 MPH. According to tests, the Yamaha and Honda 225 HP four strokes are very close in performance.

7)I own the Parker 2300 DV CC w/F225 Yamaha. The boat came equipped with the 4-stroke and I love it! As I stated in other posts, I have been a long time Yamaha owner(2-strokes), but now, would never own a 2-stroke again, unless the boat I wanted came with a 2- stroke. I would buy either motor, but given the choice would take the 4-stroke any day! I often wonder how many boater's on this forum have ever owned both 2 and 4 stroke motors as I have as the "performance" issues are in my opinion are a non-issue! The biggest difference in "off the line" performance that I have seen, on similar equipped boats, has been .4 seconds! .4 seconds may mean something to a top fuel dragster, but, to you and me out fishing, get real! My father-in-law owns a Hydrasport with the 250 Yamaha and I must say, is an extremely quiet and smooth motor,but,when he fishes in my boat, says he would take the 4-stroke over the 250 if he had the choice.As in any "drag" race, there is driver error and reaction time involved. I would welcome any other Parker, similar to mine, equipped with a 2-stroke of the same H.P., to do a comparison.I almost guarantee the numbers would be so close that they would not even be arguable.
As I do agree, your friend would be happy with either motor, GET THE 4-STROKE!Even if the performance numbers and fuel mileage were identical, the quietness, smoothness and not having oil smoke or reservoir to deal with is worth it. When you start talking about price being an issue, then nobody would own a Yamaha as they are the highest priced motor on the market, at least in this area.So bottom line could be "you get what you pay for" and in my mind, the Yamaha 4-stroke is as good as it gets!
Might I add to the "off the line" performance comments. From what I understand, the Parker 2300 DV CC w/F225 Yamahs is on plane in 4 seconds. If the same boat with a 2-stroke is .4 seconds faster and if plane speed is around 20 m.p.h., then.4 seconds is less than 11 feet! This works out to less than half a boat length from 0 to plane! Where in the world would this difference ever matter, other than a drag race? Wow, I never realized I was losing so badly by owning the 4-stroke!

8)Guys the new hpdi are a big improvement over the old 2 cycle motors. To me its a no brainer, buy the 250. Many folks ive talked to who have 23 Regulators w/225 4 strokes are very disappointed in the performance. How much does the Parker weigh? Also gauge acceptable performance in the 4000 - 4500 RPM range not at higher RPM 's

9)The 250 hpdi is a totally different motor than the old OX66 saltwater series with regard to smoking, noise level and rough running a slow speeds.

10)I have talked with several people who own the F225's or 250 HPDIs. The 225 owners seem to be happier. It sounds like they are still working the bugs out of the 250's. Nothing big. Typic first model year things like excessive oil burn, etc. But I heard more than one of them say that someone convinced them to buy the HPDI's and now they wish they had gone with the 4-stroke.
I heard this same stuff again while wandering around the Contender Dock at the Naples SKA tournament this past weekend. The reason I responded to this post is that I heard from more than one person that a dealer had pushed them towards the HPDI's and now they wished they had the 4-strokes

11)The HPDI's do infact smoke, maybe not to the degree of older 2-stroke designs but they still do. Also consider the expenses of oil ($10-15 gal) with gas prices expected to be pushing $2.50+ a gallon at the marina, ring free, and fouled plugs at low rpms....Is that extra 2-5 mph worth the above aggrevation?

12)I have a 23SCDV with an F225 on a bracket.
If you nail the throttle I can guarantee that, unless prepared, all occupants of the boat will be injured and/or fall out.
Granted, I don't do much racing, but power is fine. I carry a lot of gear.
I have another boat with a 2-stroke. I won't even consider going back.
Aside from a belt squeak that went away after a few hours of use, the motor has operated flawlessy. (~250 hrs if memory serves)

13)MY 2 cents the 4 stroke- I have a 200 honda and love it- the quietness and no smell. Never againa 2 stroke (Yes the HPDI's smell less than the old 2 strokes but they smell when yr trolling down wind.)
Think the notes are right on-
clearly 4 stroke not as quick per HP and more sensitive to propping over prop and you kill them , check the Yamaha performance bulletins I think your boat may be listed didnt recheck.
small gas savings- with 4 stroke, more if you troll a lot not much if any at cruise HPDI basically same at cruise
My guess is 4 stroke will have a better resale- but crystal ball may be broken on that point.

14)I just went through this same exercise while re-powering my boat and the people on this board were great. I decided on the 4strokes for many reason but the quite operation and economy were the keys. I also did not realize that the Johnson's were made by Suzuki and got a better deal on the Suzi's.

15)The Z250 is Yamaha's new 2003 HPDI 3.3L big block. I don't have any history on this outboard, or know anyone who runs one. You may want to wait and see how this outboard pans out over time, although IMO (and JD Power), the Yamaha's all have a good reputation. The F225 has been out for a few years and it's been extremely good.
Besides the 25 hp difference (hardly noticeable) here are some differences between the two...
F225 = 583 lbs
Z250 = 543 lbs
F225 Alternator output = 45 amps
Z250 Alternator output = 50 amps
F225 max rpm = 6000
Z250 max rpm = 5500
F225 gear ratio = 2.00
Z250 gear ratio = 1.81
F225 warranty = 3 years
Z250 warranty = 2 years

The Z250 is oil injecected and direct fuel injected. The F250 has an oil sump and it's also fuel injected. Prop performance would be similar since the increased rpm of the F225 is made up with a higher gear ratio.
Because of proven success and reliability, and the better warranty, I'd go with the F225.

Mr. Sandman
03-14-2003, 09:08 AM
I have read similar things as well. My bet (for what its worth) is to go for the 2 stroke . Both are good engines and there is no "wrong " decision here, but these are my reasons

A) cost per HP...4 stokes are significantly more costly to buy
B) Weight: for a given HP, the added weight is also significant
C) HP...ratings vary but look at HP at the prop 2 cycles tend to deliver what is advertised, but 4 cycles tend to come in noticably less (*in some cases*)
D) Fuel eff in the newer FI 2 cycles have gotten quite a bit better in the last few years too and while the 4 cycle will probably win out I don't think there is a huge gain in fuel savings as there once was. On some models I think the 2 cycle actually is better on fuel. (but not by very much)
E)Also while not as quiet as a 4 cycle they have been improved quite a bit here too. 4 cycles are quieter and do run better at low speed. But I don't think the cost justifies it (yet) for those savings.
F) There are also lot more moving parts in the 4 cycle.

Again, I honestly don't think you can make a wrong decision here, and I do they that 4 cycles will rule the day...but IMO 4 cycles have a few more years yet. They need to get the weight down, and HP up and cost down.

Bottom line: bang for the buck...2 cycles still have the upper hand but the 4 cycle is a finally mature enough to consider for reliable power.

179
03-14-2003, 09:30 AM
I'm curious as to what is the price differance between these two motors?

Mr. Sandman
03-14-2003, 09:37 AM
ballpark:

CRITERIA: New Yamaha 4-Stroke outboards between years 2002 and 2002 with a power range between 200Hp and 250Hp
Year Make Model Type Shaft Length Starting Steering Tilt/Trim US$ Price Link to
2002 Yamaha F200TXRA 4 Stroke 25" Electric Remote Power $ 14888.674111 More info
2002 Yamaha LF200TXRA (Counter) 4 Stroke 25" Electric Remote Power $ 15456.007728 More info
2002 Yamaha F225TXRA 4 Stroke 25" Electric Remote Power $ 15532.674433 More info
2002 Yamaha LF225TXRA (Counter) 4 Stroke 25" Electric Remote Power $ 16276.008138 More info




CRITERIA: New Yamaha 2-Stroke outboards between years 2002 and 2002 with a power range between 200Hp and 250Hp
Year Make Model Type Shaft Length Starting Steering Tilt/Trim US$ Price Link to
2002 Yamaha 200 HPDI (Z200TXRA) 2 Stroke 25" Electric Remote Power $ 12006.006003 More info
2002 Yamaha 200 SW EFI OX66 (SX200TXRA) 2 Stroke 25" Electric Remote Power $ 10050.671692 More info
2002 Yamaha Counter 200 HPDI (LZ200TXRA) 2 Stroke 25" Electric Remote Power $ 13048.673191 More info
2002 Yamaha Counter 200 SW EFI OX66 (LX200TXRA) 2 Stroke 25" Electric Remote Power $ 11048.005524 More info
2002 Yamaha V MAX 200 3.1L OX66 (VX200TLRA) 2 Stroke 20" Electric Remote Power $ 10932.672133 More info
2002 Yamaha 225 SW OX66 (SX225TXRA) 2 Stroke 25" Electric Remote Power $ 11584.005792 More info
2002 Yamaha Counter 225 SW OX66 (LX225TXRA) 2 Stroke 25" Electric Remote Power $ 12626.67298 More info
2002 Yamaha V MAX 225 3.1L OX66 (VX225TLRA) 2 Stroke 20" Electric Remote Power $ 11193.33893 More info
2002 Yamaha 250 SW OX66 (SX250TXRA) 2 Stroke 25" Electric Remote Power $ 12496.672915 More info
2002 Yamaha Counter 250 SW OX66 (LX250TXRA) 2 Stroke 25" Electric Remote Power $ 13493.34008 More



source:

http://www.leisurebytel.com/usaoutboards/usoutboardsnewall.asp

So comparing 225 (4) to 225 (2) you see difference of 15.5 to 11.5 or about 4K in favor of the 2 stroke.

gf2020
03-14-2003, 09:55 AM
I'm a 4 stroke fan, my next boat may very well have one. However, for a heavy Parker sport cabin I would go with the 250 HPDI. (Actually, given the option I would go with the Evinrude 250, but I know you are limited to the Yamahas.)

The 250 HPDI has an all new 3342 cc block which compares favorably to the F225's 3352 cc block. Low end torque should be pretty much the same and the greater top-end of the HPDI will probably make it more efficient at 4000 RPM and above cruising speeds.

Check out some of the archives at http://www.thehulltruth.com/ or http://floridasportsman.zeroforum.com/zeroforum?id=16. Many guys over at those forums have recently gone through the same selection process.

179
03-14-2003, 10:13 AM
I would think that Parker would have rigged it with this HPDI motor, probably more in line with the pricing on the 225 4-stroke, isn't this the top of the line 2-stroke HPDI motor??? I might be wrong though....

250-HPDI, Z250TXRB

fishsmith
03-14-2003, 10:29 AM
First off thank you all for the responses, keep em coming.
The base 2320 is powered by an hpdi 200. I don't know the exact engine model though.
I was surpised to find out that Parker dealers are required to be territorial, the tiverton dealer said he couldn't sell the boat, cataumet and 3amarine were my buddies only choice because of his location. And if you think there is wiggle room in the price with our depressed economy, there isn't.

fishsmith
03-26-2003, 08:42 AM
The boat was ordered yesterday with a 225hp 4 stroke yamaha.

The final score on votes gathered here and at the hull truth for the 225 4 stroke vs 250 hpdi 2 stroke were:
16 votes for the 4 stroke.
6 votes for the 2 stroke.

Thanks again for the time you took to respond, hopefully by mid June I can give some first hand opinions on this fishing machine, I'm sure redlite will be able to give some opions as well.

**God Bless America and her Defending Troops**

179
03-26-2003, 09:47 AM
fishsmith,
Great decision, that is going to be a great combination! Post some pics when you can. I always really liked the Parkers....

Van
03-27-2003, 09:13 AM
I had a legthy converstion with guy who has been a tester for Yamaha for many years.
He now works for a boat yard and has sea trialed many boats with all kinds of power.
He said he tested a 23 with the 250 HDPI 4-St. and thought is was propped wrong. But is was propped right it just did not have the umpf.
On his own boat he is not going with 4-str at all. rather he opted for a 225 ficht over the 250 HDPI.
More power out of the hole, better fuel comsumption, and a higher top end due to the lighter weight. Only draw back is the additional oil, but again the new injected models run very lean with oil, NO smoke.

I was surprised at his remarks, but he has tested quite a few engines and says the 4-Str are just not there yet in the big blocks.

Just remembered he said the 250 HDPI was only putting out about 230 HP at the top of the curve. The 225 Ficht puts out 237. Thats why its got more umpf.

179
03-27-2003, 09:38 AM
Van,
I agree that the 4-strokes especially the 200+hp models are a bit slower than the 2-strokes, especially the current Ficht motors.

There is a trade-off though, sacrifice a little top end speed for the superior fuel mileage at low rpms, not having to add ring free, or oil, and also the quiet, smoke free operation. IMO the benefits out weigh the speed factor. There also is a resale factor, as a majority of new boats being sold today are equipped with 4-strokes.

I would guess that on this 23' Parker the speed differance between the 225 4, and 225 2, would be 2-4mph on the top end.

I compare the current 4-stroke criticism similar to what we experienced in the 80's with the introduction of fuel injection, alot of people refused to buy vehicles with the new tech claiming the performance would suffer and reliability wouldn't be there, none of that ever panned out and infact ended up to be the opposite...

Van
03-27-2003, 10:06 AM
Question---

I have not been in a boat with a 4-st running @ WOT.

I know they are nearly silent at idle.

But...
Are they really much quieter than a 2 st @ WOT ???

179
03-27-2003, 10:38 AM
Van,
I know my 140 is virtually dead silent at idle or troll speed, at cruise speed there is noise, and at w.o.t it is noisy...not enough to keep you from having a conversation though.....

fishsmith
03-27-2003, 10:44 AM
I cant wait to give you a first hand answer on that.

the numbers for wide open throttle on the same boat:

225 4stroke - 42mph 21.4 gals per hour
250 hpdi 2stroke - 45mph 21 gas per hour (less gas)

but this boat is for fishing and over the life of the motor, the fuel savings are in favor of the 4stroke (at speeds other than wot) and the cost of 2 stroke oil (yammi-lube) will add up as well.

Van
03-27-2003, 11:43 AM
Sounds good.

179, thanks for the reply.

fs:
Definately let us know how it works out.

I am more than curious.

Won't be long now we will be zipping around the ocean.
I may uncover next week.
I have hydraulic steering to put in this season, so that may
take a while, and I want to get a jump on it.