View Full Version : Heating Up


chefchris401
11-22-2010, 07:53 PM
Ok so been doing alot of reading on sealing plugs by heating them up either in the oven, toaster oven or microwave.

I understand that the heat helps open the pores on the wood and allows a better peneration of the sealer.

But heres my question:

Has anyone tried heating up the sealer/spirits mix, then soaking the plugs in a hot mixture??

Seems like the heat would help the viscosity of the sealer and help it soak in.

Im not talking about boiling the sealer but real hot like 180 to 200 degrees, in a well ventilated area or outside. Then soak the plugs as normal.

Just curious about this. Any thoughts?

Nebe
11-22-2010, 08:19 PM
BOOOM!!!

BigFish
11-22-2010, 08:20 PM
Why bother with all that! Not to mention its dangerous! It ain't brain surgery! Find something you can dip, wipe and let dry!

WoodyCT
11-22-2010, 09:01 PM
The hot plug will heat the sealer and reduce it's viscosity so it soaks in better.

Heating volatile liquids is a sure way to win yourself a Darwin Award.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

chefchris401
11-22-2010, 09:18 PM
This is why questions are asked!!!

was just a thought i had while painting some plugs.

I have a system that works already and that Im happy with.

ed morini
11-23-2010, 12:23 AM
The iea of heating the object to be sealed was developed for the use of epoxy sealing/ coating. The theory works on the principle the contracting of the cooling air contained in the object. The heating causes the expansion of the air within the object ot expand and when it is rapidly cooled, the contraction of the air will pull the sealant into the stock. The process requires the rapid cooling of the stock. I don't think placing the heated piece in the sealer would accomplish the desired end results. I have seen and done this in sealing planking in boats. It works ok but I think thinning the sealant works just as well. BLO thinned, seals very but has drawbacks, fumes and drying time. Thinning epoxy with xylene at 4:1 (25% epoxy) will seal very well and is as effective as BLO IMO. It should be noted that epoxy requires between 3 to five coats unthinned to be waterproof.

GattaFish
11-24-2010, 01:15 PM
If you have cold sealer, a large pickle jar and heat the blanks it soaks right in,,, especially if you keep the jar top clean and close it. It crates a vacuum and can help the sealer go deep into the wood.

The dip method really only works on woods with natural oils and resins, not so much on hard woods. They require more soak time.

As far as epoxy sealing. Everyone talks of the concoctions to thin regular epoxy. Why not just use a boat building laminating epoxy. It works great, soaks in deep and does what the professional engineers designed it for.

JMHO... Which does not mean much,,,

Jackbass
11-24-2010, 05:03 PM
If you really want to warm your sealing mixture do what they used to do in the lead paint days. Get a block of metal stick it in the oven for a while to warm it to 150-200 degrees and drop it into your sealing mixture. It will definitely increase the viscosity of the product. But if your are using an oil based sealer and want better penetration try penetrol. That stuff works great and you don't need to heat anything.

ed morini
11-24-2010, 07:08 PM
Regular boatbuilding laminating epoxy is not thin enough to seal, it has enough viscosity to hold in the cloth and with brushing will wet out the glass cloth. When you seal wood, you are trying to get some protection as deep as you can.
Hardwoods are biologically constructed with pores(ring porous (oak), semi ring porous(ash) and diffuse porous(cherry)) which make them good candidates for most sealing applications, particularly in the area of the end grain, as the pores can conduct the sealer into the wood. Soft woods contain no pores and usually some type of protective resin. There can be some absorption into the end grain but the sealer has to fight the resins. Sealing on softwoods is usually a surface protective coating. In the case of using this sites favorite sealer 60/40 BLO and thinner, in my opinion, works on softwoods because the thinner in the mixture will cut the resin and the BLO will take its place, on hardwoods the thinned BLO is pulled along into the pores with the thinner (capillary attraction).
When you seal with epoxy, the epoxy is mixed at it regular ratio and then thinned (xylene), this effects the set up time of the mix and its strength, but allows via the thinner, its aborption into the wood through the pore in hardwood, and by reducing the resin in softwoods. Some softwoods don't need sealing (cedars, cypress), their resistance to the weather are well documented. Pine if kept out of the dirt is very durable. The oldest timber frame house in America, The Fairbanks Morse House, in Dedham still has it siding and frame. I don't know about the old plugs, there are builders here would have more knowledge than I have, but I would be willing guess the sealer they used, if they sealed them at all,along with the paints contained either a linseed base or an oil base as the vehicle in the paint. Back then the top coats more than likely contained lead. All in all apretty good protective coat. Sorry for the long post

Eric Roach
11-24-2010, 07:14 PM
Anyone else try ESP 155? It's a Xylene-thinned, 2-part marine epoxy which dries quickly. I've only used it on cherry but it sealed it much better than BLO, Tung or Helmsman.

Mix the epoxy, microwave the plug for about 7 seconds, pour over the plug from cup to cup for about 5 minutes. Wipe excess, let dry about 8 hours. Repeat. After about 20 hours (total) it's ready for paint.

ed morini
11-24-2010, 08:06 PM
I have seen it used and it works as described. I buy from Raka Marine, 100% solvent free resins and then cut with xylene, less cost and works the same.

stripermaineiac
11-24-2010, 10:01 PM
Listen to Nebe. You heat most of the paints and sealers -latex or oil based they become very volatil. BOOM can be the understatement. Years on the fire dept and I saw a lot of fires due to paints or solvents gettin heated and flashing over. We don't realize what the enviornment that they are in can change their flash point making it a lower temp than rated.Good way to loose your home investment or more.Heat the blanks but not the soak. Ron

Eric Roach
11-26-2010, 01:41 PM
I have seen it used and it works as described. I buy from Raka Marine, 100% solvent free resins and then cut with xylene, less cost and works the same.

Good tip, thank you.

adson
11-26-2010, 04:33 PM
I use the RAKA 350/127 no blush epoxy
not sure why you says it's not thin enough to seal, thats what it is designed to do. I heat the plugs in the oven first so that helps with absorption. when the plug is warm it drips all over the place and flows through the wire holes and drips out the other end like water.
( for those that aren't familiar with RAKA, they sell epoxy primarily for boat building)

ProfessorM
11-26-2010, 05:06 PM
is that what you use for a top coat too or just sealing? I have used sys, 3 clear coat as is for sealing warm wood and find it to be plenty thin enough. I also use it for top coat. When i run out I will try the Raka stuff. Is there a specific one you would use for a top coat?

adson
11-26-2010, 05:51 PM
I haven't tried to use it for a top coat. On boatbuilding projects we always use varnish for UV protection if it is exposed to sunlight, so I have been reluctant to use it for a top coat. it does have a slight amber color to it.. I've been using etex for a top coat lately.

I use the 350/127 so I don't have to worry about blush issues. I have a gallon left over.
not sure what I would use for plugs if I had to buy it again. Larry at RAKA is very helpful over the phone and may suggest something if you ask him.

ProfessorM
11-26-2010, 07:51 PM
thanks for info

ed morini
11-27-2010, 07:05 PM
The 127 resin and any of the other hardeners offered by Raka are great products and I have been using them for quite awhile. The viscosity of those resins are formulated for laminating and or bonding. The sealing of stock in the plug building case does not involve the added cloth. I don't think I said the resin wasn't thin enough for sealing, I meant that in the plug building case the resin cut with xylene will act the same way as the BLO and thinner mixture that started this whole thread. The priming of both surfaces with unthickened epoxy is a widely used and trusted method when bonding. Sealing is perhaps the wrong for prepping plugs.
This I do know, when not using a layer of fiber in the project or using epoxy as a fillet, I prime my surfaces with xylene thinned epoxy. I have used this on boat interiors, framing members, and as a prep on woods to finished to be finished bright. the trim on my home was trated this in 1974 and has only been painted once during that time. Epoxy cannot last as a top coat as it is not UV resistant. I have tried all kinds of additives and have not been satified with the results. Varnish oil based, waterwhite waterbased, and the oil modified urethanes are much more resistant. Hood finishes makes an above the waterline varnish that is very good.

adson
11-27-2010, 07:40 PM
Ed, thanks for the info and reply...I wasn't questioning the exterior stability of the epoxy, i was just surprised to hear of someone using a thinner to help epoxy penetrate when sealing wood. in all my years reading about boat building projects using epoxy I have never heard of anyone using that stuff to help penetrate. I'm sure it works well for you. I just have never heard of it. considering how flammable it is ( and that most guys are building plugs inside ) I will continue to seal with pure epoxy.

ed morini
11-28-2010, 05:12 AM
CPES Warm Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer MultiWoodPrime (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=1268) and Rot Repair - System Three Resins, Inc. (http://www.systemthree.com/store/pc/Rot-Repair-c33.htm) These are just two of the many

Check out the above links CPES has been around awhile as well as some others, If I remember correctly System 3 bought out the line of T-88 epoxies just for their sealers.

Jamestown's CPES sells for $179/gal, mixed Raka at $100/gal, then cut, would $25/gallon, and does the same thing. As far as safety goes, one should always know the parameters of materials being used. Xylene, BLO&thinnner, lacquer thinnner, AND epoxy with solvents same (that why I use Raka.. no solvents) BOOM. THe thinned epoxy doesn't need to be heated to work. It IS as dangerous as heating any solvent or petroleum or resin based (turpentine).

Eric Roach
11-28-2010, 08:08 AM
How much working time do you get with the Xylene-thinned Raka?

With the lower cost associated with a 75/25 mixture, it seems it might be feasible to mix a larger amount and use a container for soaking (or partially soaking) a batch of plugs rather than pouring back and forth over one plug at a time.

ed morini
11-28-2010, 09:48 AM
The setting time is around 40 hrs. in a well ventilated area. The kick temperatures are the same as for uncut mixtures, repeat coats must be done within product windows unless using a no blush epoxy. Regular epoxy takes 3-5 coats for waterproofing thinned will never make it. Heating and thinning epoxy will alter strength values... not an issue here.
Note: Coast Guard standard for waterproof glue is boiling glued sections for 1 hour (last time I checked) resoucinal is still king. Most off the shelf epoxies fail at a lower temp.

adson
11-28-2010, 11:22 AM
Ed, are you saying that you give your plugs multiple coats ?

ed morini
11-28-2010, 04:54 PM
Not of the sealer. Not always on the finish. If I really wanted to waterproof the plug, then multiple coats would have to be applied and if I cared about the longevity of the plug I would top coat with the clearest finish available.I was wondering if anyone has tried using a vacuum press to really set the sealer? Later this winter I think I might give it a try... just to see what happens. I was talking with Bruce this afternoon and he suggested a paint pressure pot to help in the sealing process.