Just picked up my Lamiglas "Ron Arra" 11' Spinning rod from CMS. I had it built with "lowrider" guides (plan on fishing 55lb samurai braid). Can't wait to cast it using the older style emblem Pro. Has anyone out there used this or a similar set-up? If so, what can I expect for casting distance, strength, and overall performance? Also,I plan on casting plugs at the canal weighing between 2.5-3.5oz.

Interestingly, while taking a quick look at the rod this evening, I noticed what appeared to be the lead guide being mounted in the wrong direction. Panic stricken, I researched it and soon discovered the reason why. Since the first guides primary function is to gather and choke the line, I guess it makes sense not to want the possibility of the line catching the eye supports. It looks kind of goofy at first, like some of the members of this site. But just like them, I'm sure i'll grow on me...:horse:

your good w/ that rod,cms is great, if u dont like it ,give it 2 me.i use 40 samurai for pluging . emblem will give u the best casting distance w/ 2 3/4 oz loaded cordell...good luck......... dave

It is not that simple. I'm not trying to pose as an expert, but I have fooled enough with these new guide setups that I think my experience can at least give others something to discuss with their rod builder.

First, and most importantly, lowrider guides do not automatically add distance to your cast....indeed they can screw you up if not set up correctly.

Setting them up correctly does not mean doing what ST Croix did (scaling a fuji diagram to 11 feet and going with it). Setting up correctly is very reel height and spool size dependent.

On long rods (11.5 and up) this is not too big an issue. There is a standard formula that puts the first guide 47" from your reel stem. At that distance (or farther) the guide layout will handle any size reel, including big spooled fast line dispensing reels such as the Emblem or its higher end brethren.

As you come in with the collector, however, it gets dicier. Then, line flow begins to take a sharper downward angle and get directed into the rod blank ahead of the second or third guide. There is also less space for line coils to flatten and so you get more overrun. Distance may drop off fast. The way around this involves moving the 2nd and third guides in and following the line path down into the blank, then running to the tip with tiny guides once the line is under control. This however takes test casting and how close you can get that first guide becomes reel and spool size dependent. I may be wrong, but I doubt CMS does it this way. The bottom line is that throwing a low rider (LC) guide on a rod, then attaching a huge spooled reel may not give you the distance you expect (and you might even be better off with a smaller spooled reel).

The other thing guys should know about lowriders (LC guides) is that they are relatively heavy, and stiff (they have a long footprint that inhibits the bend of the rod some, particularly evident near the tip). Going with titanium helps the weight....of your rod and wallet,.... but you still have the stiffer tip issue.

All in all, most guys fishing solely braid are probably better going with a 'New Concept' build......maybe using a 30 size Alconite K guides as the first collector a little further out the rod than you are used to, then dropping 20 (or 16)-10-to size 8 or 10 runners (about 6 of them) to the tip. This setup probably gives you the best balance of versatility, lightness, performance, and expense. You can, I think, do a little better with Titanium LC guides and Titanium K guides as runners, but you will be locked into one specific reel, you will need to test cast a lot, and it will cost you about $200 for the guides.

Finally, after buying and building..then tearing down and rebuilding.. rods like a maniac, I'm beginning to realize that casting technique is more important than blank and guide systems, and that the blank or reel that casts the farthest is often not the equipment you want to fish with when you expect to catch fish.

Hopefully more experienced guys like saltheart or reelin rod will chip in and offer better guidance than I can.

My buddy and brother has one and they can throw some bombs. Im picking mine up from CMS on sat. Exact same rod. With a stella 10000sw they where averaging about 125 yards with and MD supercaster with 40lb powerpro in a field.

Love my xra 1322 with lowriders :)
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Is reversing the first guide still done with the new K series design?

Is the first guide or the choke guide at the 47" mark?

Thanks for the great feedback. Very informative. Tight lines to you all.

Is reversing the first guide still done with the new K series design?

Is the first guide or the choke guide at the 47" mark?

No, the K guide tilts forward to shed loops. They all face the same way.

The low rider uses the reversed long legs facing forward on the collector to do the same thing. Sometimes guys reverse the second guide as well (apparently it helps if throwing big knots through the guides).

On a standard low rider set up (for rods over 11.5 feet) the collector is at 47" or further. It doesn't work too well on 11 foot rods that way, however. The guides end up too far out the blank.

The choke guide you refer to (for others that don't know) is the first small runner guide in a NGS or "new" concept setup. It is supposed to be at the intersection point of the spool spindle (which is commonly angled 4 degrees towards the rod) and the rod blank. Most guys, however, use a formula (I think it is 27.5 x spool diameter in inches....but forget) to place the choke guide (which will be the size of your running guides to the tip). You then space standard or K guides (usually two or three) of appropriate height working backwards so the top of the guide touches a line from the choke guide to the spool spindle. You then use the small guides the same size as the choke guide every 5-7" to run the line to the tip (which should be a ring size one up from the runner size). If you do it right, when you sight down them you will get a concentric set of rings from your spool to the choke/running guides.

The beauty of it is not only does it cast well, handle braid well, but it also results in smaller and lighter guides towards the tip and a more responsive rod. The guides also "place themselves", if you want your collector closer to your reel you just use a higher guide.

For the # test line and line velocities most of us generate, either system (a NGS or Lowrider) will cast about the same distance. The lowrider guides are much harder to set up on a short rod, however.
At very high line speeds and with very thin braid, lowriders are supposedly better since guide looping can occur anywhere out the rod, including the tip. Likewise, on big long rods 12-14 feet, I think lowriders are preferred because you can use many fewer guides....but I have no experience with rods of this size ( I mention it because these new CTS and Century blanks make 12 foot rods an option for what we do).

I had good luck using a size 20 low rider as the first guide in what is pretty much new guide concept setup. Nice thing about the lc 20 is that it is nice and tall. It is a reasonable substitute for a more typical 30, if you don't need the ring diameter. I should point out the 1st guide was the only lc I used before transitioning to other guides.

In any case, the orig. poster is going is almost guaranteed to like that 1322.

As Numbskull has posted , there are a million details in some of the specialty guide layouts. There is absolutely no way to predict how your rod will function with the details given. No guide numbers , locations , sizes , handle length , etc. Now CMS are good guys and good rodbuilders so I would assume some testing was done after the first build or two using low riders. I have no way of knowing for sure.

Just some things to clarify about what's already been posted.

I believe the largets Low rider is a 20. I do not like low riders near the tips of most rods we use for stripers. i like to use then for maybe 3 guides from the reel then switch to other designs , like MN or the now K styles. Titanium guides are "break the bank" guides. I do not think they warrant the huge price premium however if money is no object , they may help a little . A big mistake that happens when using low riders is that all the attention is paid to the first few bigger guides. just read the posts above and most of the specifics are about location of the gathering guide., etc. A big problem is that people decide how many guides and how far to place the bigger guides then just fill in with the small ones towards the tip. This will result in the line bunching up if the low riders near the tip are too close together. Overall I would rather see a NGC layout using K guides than a lowrider set up unless the caster is using very thin braid and is a powerful caster. even at that , i really think Fuji has two competing lines when they introduced the K guides on top of the low roders. i also think that k guides in an NGC layout more closely approaches what we normally like for a dstriper rod which is the fewest number of larger guide , often called cone of flight. Now all the top builder modify the cone of flight theories and incorporate some of the Fuji Concept or NGC concepts into their builds. Its all a compromise between fishability , (most important) castability , (important to some but seldom needed by most), reel requirements for the appllication and a builkd that must match that reel , very application specific things for rods such as canal rods or breachway rods , beach rods that must heave a large simker and bait , etc.

There are no one liners to cover all these details. each rod is different and each needs to optimized around some of the things I just mentioned.

Most who I have built for knwo i seldom make a rod the same as the high volume shops. I have great respect for the guys who build hundreds of rods and must do 2 a day but for something really special , it takes a lot of time and information to get things right.

To me , your best bet in 2011 is a NGC build using K guides that is modified if possible for your particular fishing application.

Now back to the lowroder Arra rod. i think you will love it. assuming the guides layout at least does not detract from performance , the lami XRA 1322 is such a nice blank that you would have to work at screwing it up for someone not to like it. I don't knwo samurai braid but in general , 55 LB sounds a little heavy to me but the way braids go , it could be rated 55 lbs and be thinner than a human hair. I just don't know the line.

I don't knwo samurai braid but in general , 55 LB sounds a little heavy to me but the way braids go , it could be rated 55 lbs and be thinner than a human hair. I just don't know the line.

The 55lb Samurai has the diameter of 10lb test mono. It also feels real smooth and supple as compared to the Power Pro.

As for the OP, he typically casts it about 20 to 30 feet using a 2.75 oz. pencil popper. He always blamed it on the rod, even after I told him that a spinning reel should be underneath the rod and not above it. Hopefully, he figures that part out this year.

The 55lb Samurai has the diameter of 10lb test mono. It also feels real smooth and supple as compared to the Power Pro.

As for the OP, he typically casts it about 20 to 30 feet using a 2.75 oz. pencil popper. He always blamed it on the rod, even after I told him that a spinning reel should be underneath the rod and not above it. Hopefully, he figures that part out this year.

:) :grins:

Has to be almost 20 years ago now that i was doing the east beach , Camp at Burligame scene several times a week. I remember on day late late Nov when we were all hanging around waiting for morning and afternoon blitzes and the occasional monster Blue fish schools. Now at this time I was in my 30's and very strong and fished 4 days a week at least so i was on top of things. i could cast far and accurate and used a 12 foot rod that time of year so i could reach anything within say 130 to 150 yards of shore.

Well one morning this kid about 13 comes walking out with a rod that was only maybe 7 feet long and it was an off the shelf department store rod. this kid with little ffort lets go a cast that just put everyone else on the beach that day to shame. technique always beats fancy gear. I had the similar experience one late afternoon when I ran into ron Arra fishing the mainland side of the canal. Now we were both using an XRA 1205 but mine was perfect with an NGC style build but his had a foot or so broken from the tip. he still outcast me by about 50 to 60 yards. now I can cast pretty far compared to most so to see someone with a the broken version of the same rod outcasting me by what amounts to "a mile" , was again a vivid reminder that technique beats equipment , hands down.

Analogous, to a years ago baseball playoff I was in. This kid half my size with the most perfect swing could flat out crush a baseball. After a couple of games, myself and the other outfielders would play him just shy of the warning track. He had 4 Hrs in a short series that cleared the fences by 20 ft. Mercy !

Interesting thread.

I have done allot of reading and allot of playing around with low riders.

About two years ago I built a ssu1321mh with low riders. I remember reading stuff on fuji's website in Japanese. I actually got a teacher that I know to translate it for me.

I think salthearts posts are right on. I love the rod, it came out great. Not perfect, but very good. Easily the best rod I have ever built myself. I did spend hours with all kinds of different guide set ups and hundreds of test casts. There are so many other factors that play into casting that i honestly think for most of us guide setups are pretty minimal. In the same breath though, I took this thing out to wasque and had a bluefish every cast while others were every 4 or 5 casts. I could get that extra 20 yards that they couldn't. On that day I needed the extra distance, but on just about every other day that I fished that distance was not important.

My ssu absolutely smokes. However I find it to be finicky. In other words if I take ten casts 7 will be good, but then 3 will be sort of off. Kind of like a pitcher throwing wild. Put all that power in the wrong direction, and you have a powerfully bad cast. The tip of the rod ended up a bit heavier than I thought it would, saltheart is right on about the guide feet being long on the lowriders.

I also have an all star 1209 that I built with new concept guides, just with smaller frames. Old timers look at it and scratch their heads.

Does the new lowrider guides do anything for conventional casting or are spinning setups the only ones benefiting from it ?

Does the new lowrider guides do anything for conventional casting or are spinning setups the only ones benefiting from it ?

It's pretty much a spinning set-up, because of the difference in the way that the line comes off the two types of reels---in looped coils on a spinning reel, as opposed to a direct line (more or less) on a conventional. Conventional rods that have the guides spaced correctly are in effect "low rider" set-ups to start with. The days when guys thought that having only 4 guides on a 10' or 11' conventional added to distance due to "reduced guide friction" have pretty much gone the way of the days when people thought that the earth was flat.

There is, however, a "new concept" way to set up conventional guides. The fuji site shows this, basically a triangle from either side of the reel to your choke guide, and the guides closer to the reel are widths to accommodate this triangle. Given the length of surf rods, it has little practical effect.

The current trend in freshwater musky size conventional stuff seems to be acid wrap then run micro guides which weigh almost nothing. Seems to me it would hurt casting distance to twist the line under the rod, but guys claim it does not. Either way, I've never felt torque while fighting a fish was any kind of problem with surf sized stuff, let alone a musky rod, so I've not bothered to try an acid wrap. Would make sense for bottom fishing, however.

Many people make the choice of Low riders just so they can have a dual rung rod. You build the rod optimized for the low roders and a particular reel and it just happens that the set up will also work with a conventional reel. The only thing different for dual rung is no trigger grip on the reel seat when its turned over to use as a conventional. many guys rig a conventional using a no trigger seat anyway.