View Full Version : MAKE STRIPED BASS A GAMEFISH!


Mr. Sandman
04-25-2003, 02:45 PM
You CAN help! Join this group (no cost), visit this site and send an email or two to your political leaders! (info and sample letters on site)

http://www.stripersforever.org/Home/

Mr. Sandman
04-25-2003, 02:48 PM
Live in Mass? Fish for striped bass? You got to read this:
http://www.stripersforever.org/Home/0042D947-001D0211-0042D952.0/Mass.%20comml.%20Striper%20fishin.doc

JohnR
04-30-2003, 07:17 AM
I think we would be better served if we were able to keep commercial & rec bass fishing at status quoe AND more importantly, significantly enhance the protection of the forage species. That would do more for the bass than the game fish status as with less pressure from comms the current stocks could collaspe from lack of food.

Fly Rod
05-01-2003, 09:07 PM
JohnR you are on the right track!!!! Commercial fishing at this time are allowed 800 thousand lbs. It is a small dent in the number of stripe bass.RECREATIONAL fishermen catch 2.5-3 million lbs. per year in Mass. with a one fish limit. Lets not be greedy recreational fishermen. You are going to be allowed 2 fish per person per day. Just think that you will be catching 4-6 million lbs. of fish compare that to the 1 million lbs. the commercial guys will be catching. Also keep in mind that most commercial fishermen also are recreational fishermen. Have you caught fish with slime on them??? That is a sign of to many fish in an area. There will always be plenty of fish as long as a disease does not come into the equation which has already taken place in the Chesapeak from over population.

Mr. Sandman please open your eyes:smash: Don't believe everything you read.

Mr. Sandman
05-02-2003, 05:16 AM
Your missing the point completely. My eyes are open alright...I just don't like what I see. You can read all about it later in the fall.
See you on the water.

Fly Rod
05-06-2003, 08:28 PM
I'm not missing the point! ! ! I see so called sports fishermen catching and taking home schoolie and or bigger fish UNDER 28". Aparrently so called sports fishermen down your way are all law abiding fishermen. Illegal fishing doesn't exsist. I just read where on this forum where a half a dozen people were taking herring illegally they had to be SPORTMEN
:af: :af: :af: the commercial season isn't opened:D :D

Mr. Sandman have a GREAT SEASON ! ! !:happy: :happy: :happy:

Raven
05-07-2003, 04:46 AM
ok lets say that this year the striped bass becomes the new gamefish
then what will its status be. No taking any fish by anyone
commercial or recreation fisherman alike or what?

Mr. Sandman
05-07-2003, 08:42 AM
Fly Rod, your starting to tic me off...gimmie a Friggin break! Don't blame the lack of forage fish on sports fishermen...it wasn't they who wiped out the bunker and are trying to take every last mac, squid herring and sardine in the sea. How come you don't see regulators moving to stop that? Like I said...I don't like what I see, and you ARE missing the point because you have $ in your eyes.

The commercial SB fishery is set up to benefit the few self appointed fisherman who think they can make a fast buck here, nothing more...why else would they limit the amount of SB licenses now? Don't more licensees generate more $ for regulators? It is a quota system...it should not matter how many fishermen there are. What they don't want is everyone running to get a cheap license so they can take 40 fish a day too...pushing the price down and hitting the quota sooner...."lets just keep this for ourselves"...the guys who showed up first should keep all the fish?.... but it is a public resource and it would help the job market, heck a raffle system is fairer then what they are doing now.....
If commercial sb fishing is such an important food source, they open it up to the recs....keep the quota the same. Itís such a scam itís laughable. Just shut it down.


I don't deny that some uninformed sport people take an undersized fish...Its wrong and I condemn that, this should be better controlled by enforcement and education.... but it is not. I think most sport fisherman care a lot more about this fish then commercial fisherman. I think that for every sport fellow who takes and undersized fish there are many more pure catch and release guys...But please don't make the commercial fisherman out to be the good guy here...the commercial black market here is huge and unaccounted for, not just for bass. And the bad apples involved commercial fishing have done far more harm then the sport angler who fishes a half a dozen times a year and takes one schoolie home.

There have been studies done that show that sport anglers *contribute* over $600 /lb of fish they catch to the economy (in terms of boats, fuel hotels, travel, fishing gear ect. Not to mention the millions and millions of positive social things that come from sport fishing which are priceless.... take a kid fishing for the fist time and you will know what I mean. Inshore Commercial fishermen do far more harm then good esp. for such a special fish as the striped bass. If you can't see that then I feel sorry for you .

Raven, making striped bass a game fish would take the price off the fishes head...there would be no commercial taking of striped bass country-wide. It would be a regulated sport fish. Meaning you may fish for it and it would be regulated (size and take limits) you just can't sell it. Also, it would stop the black market..Resturants would be fined if it were found on their menu. For example, sailfish is a game fish.

IMO this is the best way to fight commercial striped bass fishing, make it a game fish, overpower these state by state games with some fed action. ...And I think it is actually do-able if you get the right political power behind it. There are FAR more rec voters and people who have in interest in rec's fishing then on the commercial side...the political types can clearly see that. The commercial side just has a louder voice at the moment and many have self-appointed themselves to some position of power only to put $ in their pocket. This will change.

Over fishing is just one variable in the striped bass equation, you need food for them to eat and clean habitat for them to spawn and grown in. The SB can give us some great memories that will last forever while providing enormous benifits to socity, why sell that off for less then 2 bucks a pound? Its not about how much you catch...commerical types don't understand that.

Mr. Sandman
05-07-2003, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Fly Rod
I'm not missing the point! ! ! I see so called sports fishermen catching and taking home schoolie and or bigger fish UNDER 28".

You saw this? Do you know these people? Have you ever done anything about it? If so, I applaude you, if not, you're part of the problem too.

JohnR
05-07-2003, 09:03 AM
Fly Rod - the "sportsman" mentioned taking those illegal herring were CT Lobstermen, not "sportsmen". And yes, some people are greeding and keep shorts and believe it or not - even the commercial fishermen are known to not exactly follow the letter or spirit of the law. Gasp, they've even been found to blatantly break the law! Golly Gee, who woulda thunk it :eek5: . So don't blame this on recs keeping shorts by any long shot.

As for the whole rec -v- comm argument on bass, who SHOULD have more allocation?

The 2 million recs that contribute FAR more to the economy on the most sought after salt fish in the country or the limited amount of comms that either dip into the bass fishery to cover expenses or dip in when one of the other species is off or closed. Hmmm - I'm thinking that allocation benefits the rec sector... Nobody makes a living off of selling bass - it's all suplemental income.

schoolie monster
05-07-2003, 10:26 AM
This is my new line about this debate. 40/1

1 commercial fisherman-40fish 1 recreational angler-1 fish

this is the commercial view of fair and equitable. As a commercial fisherman, what is your reasoning for why you are entitled to 40 times more of a public resource than the next guy. Answer that question without some spin or BS and maybe I'll listen. No, don't say commercial take vs. rec take... I'll throw up.

Economics don't work for the comm side... anyone that denies that recreational fishing DWARVES commercial fishing in terms of economic benefit is clueless. It is so lopsided, its silly... and that's commercial fishing as a whole. Comm fishing for striped bass has to be even more lopsided since its all rod and reel. You don't wipe out everything and everything that the nets touch and bring up thousands of fish.

There certainly is no environmental benefit for commercial fishing. And please don't tell me about the diseases, etc. due to lack of forage, because that argument fails coming from the comm side since commercial fishing has wiped out the forage fish. Can't be the cause and the answer.

Should the rec take = comm take? No. There are countless more recs than comms so the rec take should far exceed the comm take.

1 fisherman = 1 fisherman
one man, one vote
one man, one fish
get what I'm sayin'? fair? equitable? equitable for all of us, not what's best for a few people? needs of the many outweigh needs of the few, or the one...

any of this make sense to anyone

Fly Rod
05-07-2003, 08:24 PM
Sandman- Show me where I in any of my corespondence said that I was blaming the recreational fisherman for the lack of forage fish. Don't quote me of saying what was never said. I know all to well the cause of the depletion of the forage fish such as the herring; mackeral and don't forget the pogie.

Yes I do agree with you that there are a few self righteous fishermen that want to limit the license. I think that anybody that wants a stripe bass license in Mass. should be intitled to one just like it is now. To me the old system wasn't broken so why fix it. As far as 40 per day very few people get that many fish per day everyday.there are days when those same people don't catch 20 a day.
the taking of illegal S B is rampert. The Enviromental Police up here out number our local police. They try there best but they also have other duties.

And I have read what the sports fishery contributes in $ $ $ $. motels restaurants clothing chartering. Just think what 4 of my charter customers coming from California must be spending for a day of STRIPE BASS FISHING in Massachusetts.

Were your finger tips sore:laughs: :laughs: mine are:D :D

JohnR- How do you know that they were lobstermen??? why would a commercial lobsterman take only a few fish??? you need a tote to bait about a 100 traps.

Rec-V-Comm who should have more allocation?In Massachusetts
Recs keep 2.5- 3million lbs. with the one fish limit.

One last thing. Here in Gloucester and Essex it is illegal to use a bait net, dip net or any other means to catch herring or alwifes in the streams or brooks that lead to there sponning ponds Years ago the lobstermen use to net them by the 55 gal. barrelsand almost depleted the species.

Hope ya catch a record breaker:happy: :happy:

my finger tips are bleeding:laughs: :laughs:

flatts1
05-12-2003, 11:19 PM
Mr. Sandman (and everyone else),

Be very leary about blindly supporting any club that will not answer fundamental questions directly asked of it.

For more information, check out...

http://reel-time.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30642

The first post there is mine (username = flatts1). It is quite long and best read from the ground up.

To be fair, I did get a response from someone claiming to be involved with SF (I have no reason to doubt him). However, his reply to me was largely his own opinion and he didn't speak for the group.

I have yet to be told where/when this organization holds their E-board meetings. If you were a member, wouldn't you want to have some say in the direction of your org?


Later,
Mike Flaherty

schoolie monster
05-15-2003, 01:18 PM
spin

Flyrod, why tell me what the rec take was? Again, you are implying that the comm take and the rec take should be comparable.

It should not be comparable. The rec take should be far more b/c there are many, many thousand times more recreational fishermen.

And whether this comm or that comm can or cannot catch his limit is totally irrelavent. Their are plenty of recs that probably don't catch a keeper all year... does that play into this argument?

I'm not trying to be j@ck@$$, but we went 'round and 'round about this last year and the year before (and its argued all over the place) and the gentlemen on the commercial side continually compare the "rec take" vs. the "comm take". Inherent in that type of arguement is the assumption that the two should be equal. It is so ridiculous

Your take should be equitable to my take... bottom line.

Fly rod and schoolie monster... equal number of fish for each. That is fair.

I am not totally against commercial fishing for striped bass as long as it is managed as a sustainable resource. Sure, I would selfishly love to see striped bass become a gamefish, but I think that a rod & reel commercial striped bass can be maintained. And I wouldn't have a problem with a system where anyone can get a commercial license, a comm can harvest something reasonable, like 5 fish per day, and that quotas and laws were strictly enforced.

Unfortunately, enforcement sucks and the management sucks, it serves the commercial interests despite overwhelming economic evidence that rec fishing pours many millions more into the economy than commercial fishing does, and it doesn't address the real problems. You can't manage a single species independently of the 100's or 1000's of other species and the habitat that the original species, our favorite striped bass, depends on to live its life.

I was trying to limit my point to the "rec take vs. comm take" that really drives me nuts.

Mr. Sandman
05-15-2003, 01:38 PM
:eek: I think Flatts is worried already! This will be shut down in the next couple of years. Its gonna happen. You watch.

As far as the rec vs comm take: A sb fisherman is a sb fisherman...comm or rec. If the state really thinks having a comm sb market is important then so be it. Let *anyone* sell their fish until the quota is met. Not some select few who buy a cheap ticket and fish for 5 weeks a year and call themselves comm fisherman and have the influence to keep it all themselves and not let others comm fish as well.

I am exhausted talking about this. You can't change my mind on the subject. I'm going fishing......

Mr. Sandman
05-22-2003, 03:36 PM
I heard this slauter was going on last winter....this letter is from an eye witness. This has got to stop at once.

http://www.stripersforever.org/Info/Stripers_Research/004442D4-001D0211-004442F0.0/NCSlaughter.pdf

MakoMike
07-03-2003, 08:55 AM
H'mm, coming to this thread late, but from what I read no one is concerned about the bass. Stripers forever doesn't want fewer fish killed it just wants them all killed by recreational fishermen. Where's the equity in that?

JohnR
07-04-2003, 10:58 PM
Wow - missed this thread for the past two months... Sandman - that's a scary letter but its a repeat of what I've heard going on year after year down there. Dropping tide, open nets at the inlet...

Flyrod - there are a lot of dollars raised by the charters in New England - bass. cod, and all. There are truly huge numbers of dollars that go into the economy raised by recs fishing stripers - far more than commercial or charters

Hooper
10-26-2003, 08:27 PM
You know, I agree with Mako Mike here...

Stripers Forever wants the fishery for themselves, and their interests, simply put. I cannot see how this striper fishery, both commercial and recreational cannot coexists together with a proper management.

My view on it is this should be strictly a rod and reel take fishery. Haven't we learned anything from the total collapse of the northeast groundfishery? Nets completely decimate fish stocks, be it trawls, gillnets driftnets, whatever... They are indiscriminate methods for killing whatever happens by.

But, if responsible commercial limits are set and then harvest is allowed only by rod and reel, it seems there could be a balance. Many commercial codfisherman that I know have said that if it were a hook and line world only we'd never overfish the oceans. While I may not go quite that far and say never, I tend to agree that selective harvest of fish by hook and line is far better than other more harsh methods.

Thanks, Hooper

JohnR
10-27-2003, 12:47 PM
Hoop - I agree, maybe limited netting but for some stocks (pure R&R for bass) but a major reduction in pressure is needed. The cod guys rod & reeling it should not be penalized not should the recreationals... This new crap about a SW license for the EEZ and beyond for Rec Groundfish is stupid too. Maybe if you throw a license at the recs they'll redirect their efforts and take them out of the fight.,..

beachwalker
11-21-2003, 08:40 AM
I had those guys pushing their rhetoric down my throat and didn't like the taste of it.

I am with John. Work on protecting the forage species (just look at this years success for proof) and try and reduce the commercial impact by LOWERING quotas, not eliminating them.

Does anyone recall the drop in price of a bass per/lb this summer once the supply reached capacity/maximum ?

Scallopers have similar issues here. We want more harvest but it doesn't mean when there is more available that the stock harvest should be increased. I was, and still am, blown away that they raised both this past year (rec and comm.). That just made NO sense at all.

Anyone have any new input without getting upset ?

deputydog
11-21-2003, 11:14 PM
The last few posters sound as though they just might have commercial permits tucked into their waders. I haven't heard anyone who doesn't have a dog in the fight;ie is, was, is married to, related to, lives next to, or is being held hostage by a commercial fisherman, who thinks that stripers shouldn't be exclusively reserved for personal use anglers. Now of course that excludes the fine folks at the ASMFC, the NMFS and the various Departments of Marine Resources all of whom have been in lock step with the commercial interests for other reasons.

beachwalker
11-22-2003, 08:11 AM
Isn't one commercial left on my local pond and let's try and smooth the diction a bit in our posts for the future.

Whenever I here someone commenting about commercial they use words like: Kill, slaughter, decimate, etc.

When it is recreational it is: catch, whack, tag, pound, etc.

The commercial vessel with the nets is "catching" fish too. Yes, he is decimating the stock but he is catching and the killing is something we ALL do. Not every bit of his bycatch dies in the net.

That is like me assuming that ALL power boat owners are idiots because MOST of the ones I know are. Just doesn't add up when one wants to talk as oppose to vent.

I am all for reduction, if not abolishment of a commercial Bass harvest. If it isn't economically viable and the Wampanoags (god forbid) don't lay claim to some ceremonial right then why keep it going.

I am still waiting for a response to my statement concerning supply/demand and the effect it had on pricing last summer.

WHEN IS THE NEXT FISHERIES MEETING THAT WILL DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE ? We need to be there and be there in numbers.

Mr. Sandman
11-25-2003, 01:42 PM
<begin rant>

I just have a problem with commercial taking of SB, sorry. The way it is run it has converted rec's into commercial fisherman for 4-5 weeks in the summer months. Is this what you want? 4000 guys suddenly taking 40 fish per boat all summer long? Quota's today are already above pre crisis days and have been increasing each year.

I am all for forage fish concerns, but that is a separate issue, IMO the SB is not NEEDED as a commercial fish for ONE month in the summer. We survived just fine during the moratorium days without it.

You will never get fair management because the management is biased by commercial interests, and has been for years. This EEZ thing will fly. (good or bad), quotas will increase year after year, just as they have ...for what? A few guys doing this as a summer job? Gimmie a break, its plain dumb.

When I see things like " this stripers forever group just wants the fishery form themselves"...huh? Other then a more populated fishery what do they have to gain? Itís more like they want more sportsmen to enjoy the species. Unlike the comm crowd, who wants as much $ as they can extract from the fishery and every year they will demand more. There is no commercial (OR PERSONAL) interest to be gained with this org , this is more of a conservation measure. This us vs. them thing and the division into "various user groups" has got us into this mess.

Also, there is far more economic benefit derived from the SB sports fisherman then the SB commercial group and it benefits far more people, not just the elite few who were grandfathered in with a SB lic.

Lastly, this needs consistent (UNBIASED) management...not state by state boards of charter and comm fisherman looking to make more $ each year. A no-commercial status would make it a game fish. The problem with new Englanders is that they resist change...good or bad, they don't care...their attitude is "this is the way is was and always will be, leave it as it is". As I said, we got past slavery I think we can overcome commercial SB fishing. I am not an activist of stripers forever but they seem to be gathering a head of steam and if they can deliver a game fish status for this prized species I support their efforts. The politcal route they are taking is the one that can circumvent these state by state boards all having conflict of interests to some degree.

I hope you all took notice of the BS going on with illegal selling of SB this past year in RI. And the LAME penalties that went along with the crime. Comments (near quotes) from the lawbreakers included "no big deal, it is just the cost of doing business" when asked about the fine. How about 20 years in prison? (Yeah I am really serious) This is just the TIP of the illegal iceberg and a lot of people know it. When I see guys buying 25-50 doz eels after the bass season is closed you have to wonder....

Current inforcement is a joke. How many people were arrested for illegal bass (beyond the RI dudes) ? More enforcement is not possible, esp. with a fishery that only lasts a month, The law breakers know this and the most logical solution is to shut it down altogether and have a single UNBIASED body making the rules coast wide. The rules may vary from state to state (season, and/or limits) but AT LEAST there is some continuity to the management plan. Right now the attitude is "If we don't take our max the other guys in the states will and that is not fair to us" ...this kind of thinking is PLAIN STUPID. Do what is right for the fish, and enough with the greed already.

<end rant>

beachwalker
11-25-2003, 06:50 PM
Well said (for a rant :) )

MakoMike
12-12-2003, 09:01 AM
First of all, I don not have and no one related to me has a license to sell striped bass, in any way shape or form. Yet, contrary to some believes I still support a commercial atriped bass fishery. I'd like to correct some misstatements;
1) the recreational striped bass fishery is economically more important than the commercial fishery.
That's true, but only on an overall basis, because the recreational fishery kills far more bass than the commercial fishery. On a fish by fish basis the commercial fishery has to be more economically important, if the commercials are fishing rod & reel they have to spend roughly the same amount as the recreationals, for bait fuel, etc. plus there is the economic activity generated by the sale of the bass.
2) 40 fish per day vs 1 fish per day. Would recreational fishermen be happy if their limit was also 40 fish per day but the entire fishery was shut down once a quota was met? Of course not! Look at the facts, recreatinal fishermen catch 4 times the amount of fish as the commercials, its just that the commecials catch all of their fish in a shorter period of time.
3) Stripers forever is some sort of pure organization that has no self serving interest. Who do you think gives stripers forever the big money? Sportfishing businesses that's who. You really think they are getting by on $25 donations, I have a bridge to sell you :) Its all about money, its just that on the recreational side the money goes to the business that sell stuff to the recreational fishermen, while on the commercial side, most look at the money the fishermen themselves make.
4) constantly increasing commercial quotas. that's pure bull. Look at the facts, the commercial quota has increased ONCE, since the stock fully recovered and that increase only brought the commercials back to where they were before the original restrictions were put in place. If you look at the long term the commercial quota hasn't increased in the last 20 years.
5) The fish are a public resource. True, so why should the 99.9% of all american that don't fish for striped bass be deprived of the ability to enjoy them on the table? From an economics point of view all the commercial fishermen are doing is providing a service for the non-fishing public by catching the fish and deliverying them to their table. So now tell me why .1% of the population should be entitiled to 100% of a public resource?

IMHO the recreational catch should be subject to quotas just like the commercial catch is. It should be measured and the fishery shut down if the recreational catch exceeds the quota.

Slipknot
12-12-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by MakoMike


IMHO the recreational catch should be subject to quotas just like the commercial catch is. It should be measured and the fishery shut down if the recreational catch exceeds the quota.

I can see your point with everything you said MakoMike except for above.

Saying that the rec. catch should be measured is one thing, actually doing it is another and imposible in my opinion. I don't go along with estimates either, there is no possible way all the fish caught recreationally can be counted.

I have nothing against a comm. bass season either even though I don't have a license either.

Mr. Sandman
12-12-2003, 10:38 AM
OK, Here we go....



Originally posted by MakoMike
First of all, I don not have and no one related to me has a license to sell striped bass, in any way shape or form. Yet, contrary to some believes I still support a commercial atriped bass fishery. I'd like to correct some misstatements;
1) the recreational striped bass fishery is economically more important than the commercial fishery.
That's true, but only on an overall basis, because the recreational fishery kills far more bass than the commercial fishery. On a fish by fish basis the commercial fishery has to be more economically important, if the commercials are fishing rod & reel they have to spend roughly the same amount as the recreationals, for bait fuel, etc. plus there is the economic activity generated by the sale of the bass.



Not so, It has been estimated that recs spend and PUT INTO THE ECONOMY $600 PER LB of bass caught... The comm market lasts for 3,4 or 5 weeks and serves a VERY small percentage of the general public. Any economic benifit to general public is so small it can't even be measured by comparison. Sure a few "comm" sb fisherman make a couple bucsk during the summer but the harm to the local sb population is not worth it. There was an interesting article in the paper not to long ago about wholesalers who are closeing their doors forever because "this is no longer a viable buisness". One in Particular was in Menemsha. There is little money in the fishing business anymore.



Originally posted by MakoMike
2) 40 fish per day vs 1 fish per day. Would recreational fishermen be happy if their limit was also 40 fish per day but the entire fishery was shut down once a quota was met? Of course not! Look at the facts, recreatinal fishermen catch 4 times the amount of fish as the commercials, its just that the commecials catch all of their fish in a shorter period of time.



Lets be sane about this. If there was NO cash available legal or illegal for the striped bass, what rec would WANT 40 fish? I am geared up to catch, store and consume fish, probably far more then most. I have 3 big stand alone freezers (2 chests and 1 stand up) in my home. I eat and give away to family and friends A LOT of fish and frankly I doubt I it take home 40 bass per YEAR, no less per day. Most fisherman just enjoy fishing and takeing a few home, some don't even do that.


Originally posted by MakoMike
3) Stripers forever is some sort of pure organization that has no self serving interest. Who do you think gives stripers forever the big money? Sportfishing businesses that's who. You really think they are getting by on $25 donations, I have a bridge to sell you :) Its all about money, its just that on the recreational side the money goes to the business that sell stuff to the recreational fishermen, while on the commercial side, most look at the money the fishermen themselves make.


"Who do you think gives stripers forever the big money?"...Big money?, you are way off the mark here....these guys are BROKE they have NO BIG MONEY, they sell some decals for a few bucks to developme web sites and alike, this is not big money organization...unlike commerical fishing and political lobbies.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT MONEY FOR THEM...they HAVE NO MONEY and WILL NOT GET MONEY IF THEIR GOALS ARE REACHED.
In a word, this is about taking the price off the bass's head and KEEPING the fish around FOR ALL PEOPLE TO ENJOY RECREATIONALLY. Not for a few to put 20-30K in their pockets during 5 weeks in the summer.


Originally posted by MakoMike
4) constantly increasing commercial quotas. that's pure bull. Look at the facts, the commercial quota has increased ONCE, since the stock fully recovered and that increase only brought the commercials back to where they were before the original restrictions were put in place. If you look at the long term the commercial quota hasn't increased in the last 20 years.


Not so, the qouta went up something like 42% last year and it went up the year before that...and they are seeking a larger quota this year as well as opening up more area to fish. Smells like greed to me. True last years quotas are now "finally" back to the PRE-CRISIS days and they think they are being shortchanged.
During the PRE-CRISIS days I think the rec limits were 16" size and unlimted take...you want to head in that direction?


Originally posted by MakoMike
5) The fish are a public resource. True, so why should the 99.9% of all american that don't fish for striped bass be deprived of the ability to enjoy them on the table? From an economics point of view all the commercial fishermen are doing is providing a service for the non-fishing public by catching the fish and deliverying them to their table. So now tell me why .1% of the population should be entitiled to 100% of a public resource?



I guess it depends on your perspective. I see the .1% as the commerical sb fisherman and I ask you: "why .1% of the population should be entitiled to 100% of a public resource?"

There are PLENTY of other OFFSHORE species that can provide food for the masses. The 99.9% of the people are not all lined up at the store waiting to buy the tasty sb...it aint that good. The small population that is served sb during the 23 days in the summer when it is for sale are for some vacationers who could just as well be eating a scup or a swordfish. What pains me is while in a fancy resturant in VA recently I had ordered a seafood entre that included rockfish. A 9" sb with the skin on was put in front of me. I could not eat it. This was a 9" commerically caught striped bass. It made me sick even to see that. We need COAST-WIDE regulation not this biased state by state crap that is doing little.


Originally posted by MakoMike
)IMHO the recreational catch should be subject to quotas just like the commercial catch is. It should be measured and the fishery shut down if the recreational catch exceeds the quota.


IT IS and it HAS BEEN! That is why they a) have limits and b) have shut it down in the past. I also think the rec take numbers are WAY WAY off as most fishermen I see release fish. That number is SO subjective and week it can't be used.

Bottom line: IMO this world does not NEED sb as a commerical fish. It provides more benifit to ALL as a sport fish. Just because you can take them does not mean you should.


Mark my words, in my lifetime, SB WILL become obtain game fish (or some non-commerical) status. This is really gaining steam now and it will happen via a politcal move squashing these biased boards which currently favor the haresting of bass to the max.



Now...all that said, I actually have a SB comm lic. I have not sold a sb since 1981 but I have a lic to do it. (I buy it for several reasons...policing support is one of them)
I think the states and the comm biased boards are providing an incentive to convert rec's to comm sb fisherman by offering cheap lic's and "easy money" for a few weeks at the expense of a great fish, so that they can get what they want passed with LITTLE OR NO POLICING EFFORTS. Most of these guys out there comm fishing are guys that never comm fished for anything in thier lives don't know a friggin thing about it and just want to take a lot of bass and and help pay for their boating expenses. This is wrong.
With reguard to policing: How many arrests were made and what were the penelties. Very FEW and very Little is the answer. If you are going to have a comm industry you better police it.

I am trying to show my kids the beauty of the fish and its surroundings and the great memories that are created with family and friends when one lets them go to catch again some day. It is not about how many and how much!

Sorry about al the typos..I type fast and don't look back on these boards...esp when I rant!! :)
Peace!

deputydog
12-12-2003, 11:08 AM
MakoMike, if you're not a commercial fisherman, I assume you run a delicatessen, because you sure know how to serve up the baloney! I wouldn't bother to respond because I really don't care what you think, but I don't want to let anything you say in your last post pass as accurate or meaningful.
1.) the recreational striped bass fishery is economically more important than the commercial fishery.
Your first two words are the only part of your argument that is important: That's true . The numbers aren't even close. The rest of your statement is babble.

2.) 40 fish a day. You must be referring to Massachusetts, which has a 40 fish per day limit for commercials. The only problem with that scenario is that 76% of commercial permit holders in Mass report selling no bass. None, not one, zilch, nada.
Those guys can still catch 40 a day (for personal use, don't ya know). I'm not saying they do, but that's a whole bunch of folks whose catch is not measured or estimated. So the commercial quota was filled by less that 25% of the licenced commercial fishermen. Would a rational person think that just maybe the commercial quota was exceeded? Yup.

3.) I'll come back to this one.

4.) I don't know who said quotas were constantly increasing for stripers. No one I know did. What I do know is that the commercial fishing industry has gotten the fisheries managers to accept the fact that commercial harvest is the quota (if filled) plus a fairly miniscule mortality number. Illegal harvest and bycatch are just about non-existent according to the numbers given and used. In the words of Santa, "Ho, ho, ho........"

5.) The truth of the matter is that approximately 1% of the U.S. population actually fish for striped bass. 99% of the remainder couldn't tell a striped bass from a walking catfish either in their hand or on their dinner plate.

Now, let's go back to 3#.
3) Stripers forever is some sort of pure organization that has no self serving interest. Who do you think gives stripers forever the big money? Sportfishing businesses that's who. You really think they are getting by on $25 donations, I have a bridge to sell you Its all about money, its just that on the recreational side the money goes to the business that sell stuff to the recreational fishermen, while on the commercial side, most look at the money the fishermen themselves make

Stripers Forever has received a total of zero dollars and zero cents from the sport fishing industry. I'm not saying we'd turn it down, but the truth is, we don't need much money. We have no salaries, we don't ask for expense money. We do what we do because it is time and it is right. We don't have dues, we don't have meetings, we're not a fishing club, we're allied only with the rights and interests of 3 million recreational anglers who have watched the fishery for the most popular saltwater fish on the East coast be trashed once, and are determined not to let it happen again.
It has nothing to do with money. It has nothing to do with trying to get the commercial allocation assigned to recreational fishermen. If anything, we'd advocate that the recreational harvest be trimmed until the results of the higher than expected fishing mortality just now being announced are fully assessed.
So MM, just back off and, next time, try to contribute to a topic you know something about.

flatts1
12-12-2003, 01:09 PM
Sandman wrote:

" Not so, the qouta went up something like 42% last year and it went up the year before that...and they are seeking a larger quota this year as well as opening up more area to fish."

Sandman, I presume that you are referring to Massachusetts. In which case, it is my understanding that the commercial quota did go up last year but it was held constant for several years prior (about 6 straight years (or more) I think). What is your source for this information

Also, where have you read that commercial striped bass fishermen are looking for more quota for next year. I am not doubting you, I am just interested where you found this information.

Nonetheless, the commercial quota is a fraction of what recreational fishermen take.

DeputyDog wrote

2.) 40 fish a day. You must be referring to Massachusetts, which has a 40 fish per day limit for commercials. The only problem with that scenario is that 76% of commercial permit holders in Mass report selling no bass. None, not one, zilch, nada.
Those guys can still catch 40 a day (for personal use, don't ya know). I'm not saying they do, but that's a whole bunch of folks whose catch is not measured or estimated. So the commercial quota was filled by less that 25% of the licenced commercial fishermen. Would a rational person think that just maybe the commercial quota was exceeded? Yup.

DeputyDog, I recognize your above quote as the mind numbed rhetoric spoon fed from an article on the SF website titled "A Fraudulent Fishery" I find nothing "rational" or even reasonable about what Stripers Forever advocates. The reason why they have any support at all is bececause they target a very gullable demographic who are simply eternal pessimists that are easily pursuaded with fear and not facts.


Allow me to share some of a discussion that I had with SF president Brad Burns.

I wrote:

Mr. Burns,


As you suggested, I read the your piece titled "A Fraudulent Fishery". May I suggest that you rename it to "A Fraudulent Premise". All you have done is correctly point out that there are many more folks who are licensed to catch striped bass commercially than there are who have actually sold them. You then leap to the conclusion that certainly this is evidence of illegal/under the table sales.

The truth is that it is not uncommon for there to be WAY too many fishermen in a any given fishery. For example, an article by The Boston Globe titled "Latest plan to reduce N.E. fishing fleet seen falling short", published on February 14, 2003 (page B3) reported the following...


************************************************** *********************

Congress is expected to finalize a new $10 million program to get New England fishermen out of the business, but the money will only retire a tiny fraction of the boats that analysts say need to leave the fishery forever.

National Marine Fisheries Service Director Bill Hogarth said yesterday that New England will only be able to support 300 to 400 boats to catch cod and other groundfish, even after the region's fish populations fully rebound. There are currently 1,700 boats that have permits to catch the bottom-dwelling fish, although many of the permit holders are not actively fishing now.

''Capacity is a major problem, I don't know how to stress that enough,'' said Hogarth. ''We need to solve it.''

************************************************** **********************

The same can be said of the commercial striped bass fishery in Massachusetts; there are too many folks chasing too few fish. This is because although there are loads of marketable striped bass available, their supply is artificially cut short by an imposed hard quota. The result is a market glut on day 1 when the commercial season opens straight through until it closes. As a result, many folks who buy a commercial striped bass license in the beginning of the season find that the opportunity cost does not make commercial fishing viable. In the end, less experienced fishermen don't even bother.

The commercial sector is all too well aware of this problem and you'll note that Mr. Abdow makes repeated mention of it at an Amendment 6 hearing. At a separate hearing in Braintree, MA this past April, many commercial folks were suggesting a variety of options to help fix the problem of a flooded market. The ideas ranged from lessening the number of days allowable to fish, to smaller bag limits, to actually kicking non-residents out of the MA comm fishery (determined illegal). Indeed, it was the commercial folks themselves calling for further restrictions on the fishery.

Now I don't doubt that a certain degree of illegal activity is going on in the striped bass commercial fishery. However, the bottom line here is that the high number of unused licenses means that fisheries managers are simply issuing too many licenses. Jumping to the conclusion that folks are illegally selling bass based via unused licenses is very irresponsible.

To be sure, the high number of licenses issued in a fishery that clearly can not support them is the fault of fisheries managers - the Mass. DMF in this case. However, to their credit, the DMF is now looking at ways to cut back on the number of licenses issued. The following is an excerpt from a DMF Press release on May 2, 2003...


************************************************** **********************

6) Emergency action (effective May 2, 2003) was taken to adopt a May 1, 2003 control date for the commercial striped bass fishery after which any person issued a new commercial fishermanís permit endorsed for striped bass fishing will not be assured of future access to or participation in this fishery if a management regime is developed and implemented that limits the number of participants in this fishery.

See:
http://www.basspond.com/cgi-bin/ib/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=8;t=51

************************************************** **********************


Folks, in the time since SF has been formed, I have yet to see anyone from this group represent this organization in any capacity at any striped bass hearing - at least in Massachusetts. That's pretty sad when you consider all of the criticism that Stripers Forever has directed toward the Mass DMF and yet they don't have the courage to actually show up at public heaings to express their concerns face to face with those who write the regs. Rather, they offer nothing but pot-shots with misleading emails.

Doesn't SF have any members in Massachusetts who are willing to describe themselves as such in public and go on record as supporting and explaining what Stripers Forever advocates?

Even CCA has enough faith in their convictions to at least show up and make a statement. I often disagree with their message but at least I can respect them for taking the time to get involved where it really matters - at public hearings where folks can scrutinize positions face to face with those who are advocating them.

Then again, Stripers Forever is free and I suppose its members are getting what they are paying for.

Folks, before you send any donations to Stripers Forever, ask yourself, what does this group actually do other than maintain a website (at a cost of $4000 which is a rip off {who paid for that}) and send emails filled with misinformation?

Sure, SF claims that they are only interested in gamefish status for striped bass. But ask yourself, what does that mean. They want the EEZ to remain closed but a closed EEZ is closed to recreational fishermen as well as commercial fishermen. What else does federal gamefish status mean? It is my understanding that true gamefish status means catch/release ONLY. Is that where we are headed? I hope not.

I suggest to anyone truely interested in what is best for the striped bass resource that you get informed by actually attending any public hearing on striped bass. You will learn more information there than in any post on any internet website. But don't expect to see SF there, at least not in Massachusetts.

Then decide for yourself if commercial fishermen are the single greatest threat facing striped bass today. I think you will be surprised.

I know that it is blasphemy in many recreational circles to say the following but I believe that there is now and always has been plenty of room in the striped bass fishery for both recreational and commercial fishermen.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for more commercial quota but if recreational fishermen can take a reasonable number of fish (currently 2/day) and that figure does not exceed the target F rate, then I have no problem with commercial folks harvesting the difference. That's what sustainable fisheries are all about. Of course that goes both ways too though. In other words, if more recreational fishermen enter the fishery which results in a F rate that approaches the target rate, then I say commercial folks should still get the difference but it will of course be lessened.

The way I look at it, recreational fishing encompases EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO FISH, whereas commercial fishermen encompasses EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SELL FISH. With regard to striped bass, I think there is room for everyone so long as "the public has first crack at the resource", as a local outdoor writer, Ed Nowak, puts it. By the public, I (and Mr. Nowak) am referring to those who are willing and able to go fishing and who may or may not take some home. Even when the commercial striped bass season closes, there is nothing that stops the same fishermen from enjoying a day out striped bass fishing - or even running a charter service for others to do so.

Later,
Mike Flaherty
Quincy, MA

deputydog
12-12-2003, 02:29 PM
Mike
Don't hold your breath waiting for a SF type to show up at any Mass meetings. We're not interested in debates with guys like you who live for nothing else. We're not interested in taking our case to the DMR or to the ASMFC or NMFS. They have always shown themselves to be pro-commercial and that's not going to change. We'll take our case directly to the fishermen and women and from there to the rulemakers in Washington.
Very early in our existence (last Spring) you jumped up on your high horse and spouted" Who would want to join a club where you never knew where or when they held the executive board meeting" or words to that effect. When you have only one goal, who needs an E Board meeting? So we can listen to you? I don't think so.
You only will support a cause when you are out front leading the charge. You may not have a commercial license, but you know a whole lot of guys that do! I think that most recreational fishermen should treat you as what a lawyer would call a "hostile witness". Better yet, they should just skip over your posts because you seem to insist on putting the same posts on about 8 different forums.

"Relax, have a homebrew and join Stripers Forever"

MakoMike
12-12-2003, 04:00 PM
O.K. lets go back over my points one by one.
1.) value of the commercial fishery. 1st of all I don't believ the figure that recreational fishermen spend $600 a pound to catch striped bass. Secondly, where we are talking about hook and line fishing how could the difference per pound, be so disproportional? The commercial guys are running the same boats as the recs, fishing with same rods and reels, using the same baits and fishing in the same waters. Sure there is the "googan" factor on the recreational side, but there is also something similar on the commercial side, at least in MA where 25% of the commercial fihermen caught 100% of the fish. So how could the recreational economic contribution, on a per pound basis be so much different than the commercial factor? The answer is that it can't.
2.) Quotas. I agree that measuring the recreational catch is, at best difficult, but it can be done. Again, would all you guys who are so displeased with the commercial bag limits be content with similar limits for recreationals and have the fishery completely shut down when the quota was reached? I think not. What about in Places like NY where thye issue tags to the commercials and the fisherman can us the tags as they see fit during the season, what's wrong with that? The fact that they may be allowed to sell 40 or 60 fish? If a recreational wanted to keep 40 or 60 fish that would be O.K. but once cash is exchanged its somehow detremental to the resource?
3.) maybe striper forever isn't getting the big bucks, but the organizations that are supporting this cause, like the CCA and RFA certainly do get big bucks, and not only from their memebers. They get cash and other support from organizations like the NYSFTTA and similaar groups which have only the economic interests on their members at heart. Follow the money and you'll see who is really paying for this cause.
4) Several individuals here have dsaid that commercial quotas are constantly increasing, go back and read the thread. The fact is that the commercials have just (last year) gotten back to where they were 20 years ago. No amopunt of obfuscation is going to change that fact.
5.) The other 99% of the people. First of all the story about paying $$ for a 9 inch striper filet proves that the fish are worth a lot more than any of you are giving credit for. People do want to buy them, both at the market and in the resturants. (BTW that 9 inch filet was, almost undoubtedly, a farm raised striper, which again proves the vlaue of the fish if someone can make money by raiseing the things on a fish farm) So why shouldn't they be able to? because some group of costal snobs thinks that all the fish belong to them? Its not the same as trout, bass and other fresh water fish, where all of the management costs as paid by the fishermen through their license fees. The cost of striper management is paid for by everyone, through their tax dollars, both state and federal. So why shouldn't they get their faur share of them? If the bass were so unplatable as some would like us to think it should be obvious that there would be little or no market for them. Commercial fishermen aren't going to fish for fish that don't pay. Of course they are often stupid enough to flood the market and depress prices to a point where nobody makes any money, but that's not the point. If there was no money on striped bass the fish farms would stop raising them and fishermen would stop fishing for them. All you have to do is open your eyes and see that there is a demand for them and that demand comes from the general public who can't or won't catch them themselves. But they pay for them, through their taxes, so why can't they get some?

Some would like us to think that the striper is something special, and that all of those other folks who want to eat fish and the commercial fishermen should content themselves with other species. Well the striper is nothing special, its no different than if there was a movement to make striped bass a commercial only fishery and let all the recreational anglers be content with scup fishing. All of the fish in the ocean belong to everybody and no one should get a monopoly on any one of them.

Mr. Sandman
12-12-2003, 04:22 PM
1 by 1 response...I am already tried of this...

1) $600/lb was written about in a past SWS. They looked at the cost of boat, fuel fishing, hotel, gear ect vs the amout of fish reported to be taken by recs. I think it is close. Yes the commerical guys are doing the same boats but there are few fewer of them and they are also taking somthing out for person gain. It is this personal gain that I find distasteful.

2) Quotas. Yes they went up last year. We all agree. There is not a commerical fisherman alive that is not looking for more. They are. As I mentioned before RECs are quotaed, they have limits and if we take too much those limits change. 20 years ago we had no limits and a 16" size. Today while the comms are back to their heyday limits we are doing the right thing and conserving the resourse, not exploiting it for personal gain.

3) Right..follow the money and you will see that those with comm interests are steering this effort to suck up every last bass they can for personal gain. mine mine mine mine..remindsme of the gulls in Wheres Nemo.

4) see 2.

5) If you want to sell bass comm'ly go grow them in a prive pond. leave the wild bass alone, they are not yours to sell and personally profit form

6)"...Well the striper is nothing special" <--HEREIN LIES YOUR PROBLEM. It is special. Incredably special. Not just to me but to millions. More so then any fish in our waters (atlantic salmon aside). Comm fisherman see $$ and nothing more. End of story. I can' belive you don't think this is a special and unique species that deserves our protection against exploitation from those who only seek personal profits. You are right about one thing follow the moeny any you will find the problem...its at the wholesale dock! I think I am going to vomit now...:yak:

deputydog
12-12-2003, 04:36 PM
Mike
Does this mean you don't want that Stripers Forever decal?
When I'm ready to set up a gillnet fishery for brook trout I'll be getting in touch with you. After all, why shouldn't you guys have an equal shot at them?
And I'm sick and tired of not being able to get a good canvasback duck in a restaurant too. Maybe you can help me mount my cannon on the bow of my CC.
Wake up my friend, the game is just about over. Lots of people do think the striper is something special, and that guys like you who don't are the enemy.

Team Rock On
12-12-2003, 07:33 PM
Deputy dog is nothing more than a Brad Burns groupie! Another moron pumping the fraudulent Gripers Forever website. Of course Brad the baby striper killer won't show in public, he's an embarrasment to the fishery. Funny thing is most rec's see right through his blatent propaganda. Boycott Orvis!!

Slipknot
12-12-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by deputydog
The last few posters sound as though they just might have commercial permits tucked into their waders. I haven't heard anyone who doesn't have a dog in the fight;ie is, was, is married to, related to, lives next to, or is being held hostage by a commercial fisherman, who thinks that stripers shouldn't be exclusively reserved for personal use anglers. Now of course that excludes the fine folks at the ASMFC, the NMFS and the various Departments of Marine Resources all of whom have been in lock step with the commercial interests for other reasons.

I think I fit that catagory.
But I guess you would just think I am eating the cheese or am a lemming :rolleyes:

I haven't heard a good arguement from anyone as to why bass should be exclusive to rec. fishing only.

deputydog
12-13-2003, 02:27 AM
Slipknot
I refuse to argue with someone who can't spell argument.

Team Rocks Off
The word is spelled blatant. Write that on the blackboard 100 times.

Either of you guys want to buy a couple of decals?

Team Rock On
12-13-2003, 08:21 AM
Beware of the "false facts" propagated by fringe groups such as StripersForever....

posted on 27-Aug-2003 1:34:25 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I spoke at length to Anne Lange and Tom Meyer of NMFS on Mon. at the ASMFC meeting. They will be reopening the public comment on whether to reopen the EEZ to striper fishing.

I expressed some of my concerns to them.

I don't think that they are very impressed by form letters they have received on behalf of several advocacy groups like STRIPERS FOREVER and the other usual advocacy groups. This is because they concentrate too much on certain contrived issues which are based on false "facts" and assumptions.

An original letter to go with the other 20 or 30 they have received will have far more impact. If you really care enough about the issue to write something original, base it on facts that you get from balanced sources instead of advocacy groups who portray the issue in accordance with their own agenda.

May I suggest the ASMFC Striped Bass Management Board Proceedings (minutes) from the 2/24/03 meeting in Arlington. It will give you all sides and opinions that came forth in the debate on whether to open the EEZ, including Anne Lange's, who is receiving the public comment. If you want to be effective, may I suggest you read her's and other's comments and concerns expressed at the meeting. Politely and factually rebutt them as you see fit.

Wherever you get your "facts" upon which to base your opinion expressed in your letter to NMFS....keep one thing in mind. If you base your letter on the "facts" presented in one or two organizations' websites or email alerts, especially if they are an agenda driven org, your letter will be far less effective than if you conciously try to get all the facts from objective sources.


Agenda driven groups do not provide objective sources of facts, even if the ostensible agenda is one you think you share.


Go to objective sources, get your facts straight and base your letter on those facts if you really want to keep the EEZ closed. If your letter is completely anti-commercial on this one, you will already be factually incorrect.


The commercial bogeyman under the bed that you've been told about does not exist.


Kelly

Team Rock On
12-13-2003, 08:32 AM
Information or propaganda?

"Last weekend we sent members at that time copies of e-mails from unnamed
fishery officials from Chesapeake Bay who told us loud and clear that
things are bad down there, and another ASMFC fishery scientist from CT who
has calculated that natural striped bass mortality is much greater than
assumed."

There is more info on Stripers Forever Website
information on our website regarding the reasons SF opposes the reopeningLast weekend we sent members at that time copies of e-mails from unnamed
fishery officials from Chesapeake Bay who told us loud and clear that
things are bad down there, and another ASMFC fishery scientist from CT who
has calculated that natural striped bass mortality is much greater than
assumed.
of the EEZ. Simply put, though, we feel there is no good reason to
reopen the EEZ. It will just create more pressure on a fish that already
has too much pressure on it. And while we have no sympathy with any
aspect of the commercial fishery, they certainly don't need more territory
either. The Mass. commercial quota is pursued by 4,500 people and was
achieved in a month. We heard that the catch came in so quickly to some
dealers that they couldn't find a market and had to refuse to buy any
more. The price was ridiculously low. Stripers are a schooling fish, and
in the middle of the summer a lot of fish are located in finite locations,
and are easily caught in volume. The commercial fishermen don't need more
area, some of them just feel like doing their fishing in the EEZ, and it
is only their personal fishing pleasure that they have any concern about.
As soon as a commercial fishery is open in the EEZ netters will be
catching stripers that they claim were taken with a rod and reel and
demanding markets and quotas for what they call bycatch fisheries,
attempts will be made to get around state gamefish laws, and the already
bloated and totally ignored illegal commercial fishery will become even
larger.
There is plenty of reason for concern about the future of
striped bass fishing, and we do not need to open new ground, especially on
the back of the disgusting 42% increase in the coastal commercial quota
this last year. Make no mistake about it, it is only a couple of the most
zealous commercial fishing state fishery directors that are behind this
move. We hope that you will get out to the meetings and let them know
that we need no new areas to kill striped bass.

Brad Burns

Slipknot
12-13-2003, 11:17 AM
OK Barney Fife

didn't know I was typing a term paper, ya I'll take a couple stickers, where do I send my nickle?

Comm. fishing needs enforcement of the regs. just as much as rec. fishing, I say give higher fines and stick to them and force the bad guys out of business. Make the risk of getting caught not worth the loss of profit that would pay the fines and then we might get somewhere. Too many crooks out there.

I would like to see striped bass last forever also and I also think the Comms. and recs. have to work together not against each other.

flatts1
12-14-2003, 12:33 AM
DeputyDog wrote:
Don't hold your breath waiting for a SF type to show up at any Mass meetings. We're not interested in debates with guys like you who live for nothing else. We're not interested in taking our case to the DMR or to the ASMFC or NMFS.

Actually Stripers Forever did make their case to NMFS at the Portland Maine hearing. Pitty though that they didn't have the stones to show up at the Mass hearing. Really, it was a missed opportunity for SF considering that Paul Diodati and other Mass DMF staff were present. SF is so quick to bash the DMF (from behind their keyboard of course) yet they choose not to face them in a public forum for fear of being exposed for what they are - which a farce.

Deputy Dog wrote:
When you have only one goal, who needs an E Board meeting?

What is that one goal again. Is it to ban commercial fishing, or is it to keep the EEZ closed to everyone including recreational anglers? Or is it something else? I guess we won't know because the only answers one can get from this group are from emails that they may or may not chose to reply to.

You only will support a cause when you are out front leading the charge.

I'm not sure what you are referring to hear but I have a hunch. Let me be very clear. Unless I specify that I am writing on behalf of an organized cause or a specific group, my personal comments on the various fishing websites are just that - my personal comments. That said, there are a number of issues that I discuss with great passion that I do not "lead the charge" on but that I like to think I offer some insight to (saltwater fishing licenses, opening the EEZ, etc...)

Deputy Dog wrote:
You may not have a commercial license, but you know a whole lot of guys that do! I think that most recreational fishermen should treat you as what a lawyer would call a "hostile witness".

I can take the lies from SF because I expect them.

I can take being charactarized as "hostile" especially when it is coming from a group that is trying to force folks out of work by all hostile means available.

But one thing I can't stand is when someone who has never met me somehow thinks he knows me.

For the record...

- I do not posess a commercial license for any species of fish

- I never have posessed a commercial license species of fish

- I have never sold any species of fish and I do not plan to

- To my knowledge, the number folks that I know personally who do hold a commercial license for strped bass numbers exactly 1 and I couldn't even tell you if he sold any fish this past year.

- Even if I did know several commercial folks, I would consider it an asset (great source of annectdotal data) and not a liability.

So why do I write so much against SF's efforts? Because I see them as just another unAmerican group trying to push a touchy/feely agenda - freedom be damned! In my opinion, Stripers Forever is not only motivated by a visceral contempt for commercial fishermen, but also by a contempt for those who simply do not fish like them.

Take the following quote from Mr. Burns regarding the EEZ for example...

"Additionally, I would add, it is the shore-based, or near shore fishermen that have historically targeted school sized stripers that have been left out of the striperís recovery. And these anglers make up the vast majority of the fishing public. They, not the fat cats who can afford offshore boats, should be accommodated first."

This is nothing more than class-envy at its worst. I'm not a "fat cat" but I do go out on a couple of charters each year. Who is Stripers Forever or anyone else to tell me how I should fish based on my means? This is a very socialist argument and as an American I found this rhetoric to be completely nauseating.

DeputyDog, I am all about learning and getting things right. I try to look at all issues with an open mind and I take in information from many, many sources. If you wish to discuss the substance of Stripers Forever's positions (if any exists) then by all means please do. However, if all you can manage as a response to those who disagree with you is to point out that they made some typos, then I think you need to do a little more homework in order to represent your group a little better.

Friends don't let friends join Stripers Forever

Later,
Mike Flaherty
Quincy, MA

P.S.
If anyone is wondering why all of a sudden the Stripers Forever folks are now coming out of the wood work, it is because Brad Burns has instructed them to. The following is an excerpt from a recent message from Stripers Forever. Rather than defend his own positions, Mr. Burns is instructing his lemmings to do it for them.

SF wrote:
We need some help from our members this winter in spreading the word about SF and its single goal of gaining game fish stature for striped bass. Specifically, we need some volunteers to post our information to the various chat rooms and to defend our mission against the inevitable attacks that will be made.

...

If you like the forum environment and you want the opportunity to make a valuable contribution to our cause, please email our website to the attention of George and we can discuss how we can begin.

goosefish
12-17-2003, 06:26 PM
Heavy rhetoric here. Fisheries science is hard for one reason: because it has people as its base, and anytime people are concerned there are issues. I live in Rhode Island where the bass are managed differently. Three or four fish per day per license holder. Most the fish are caught rod and reel. The fish traps have a seperate quota with a slot limit: I thinks its 24"-28"
From reading some of these comments it sounds like Mass. is a real mess. I think 40 fish is too many and I think that it puts way too much pressure on the 'numbers spots' like Buzzards Bay and Vineyard Sound, Devils Bridge and Squibby. Rhode Island makes more sense. AS for Stripers Unlt. I don't know a thing about it. But I do know that i started to get tired of Salt Water Sportsman's editorials constant bashing of commercial harvesters. I worked on trawler's for twelve years, which doesn't really mean anything, except I'm sensitive to bashing of commercial fishing. But still i feel that the way Mass. is going about it is wrong, almost nonsensical. I have no solution, and besides, i don't follow the issues closely enough to have an opinion. But i love to fish and I love the striped bass and this is, I suppose, all I need for a voice in the matter.

cheferson
02-18-2004, 01:23 AM
Should definetly make stripers a game fish. Working in kitchens for a few years i can attest to the amount of anglers illegally selling bass to restaraunts, many times under 28 inches, makes me sick. Ive also been in the back of fish markets , where there were more then a few short striper racks in the scrap bin. Man in general is a very greedy animal, take away the profit and there numbers , im sure will skyrocket!!

Flaptail
02-19-2004, 08:32 PM
Okay, reality check time here. The making of the Striped Bass into gamefish status is a bad move but before you go hopping around the room and cursing at your computer hear me out. I have been catching Striped Bass since I was 6 years old, I caught my first one at the end of the Scusset Jetty fishing with my Dad and brothers, I am 48 years old now. Most of you know me from the articles, column in On The Water and talks I do now and then on my favorite subject, the Striped Bass.

I put myself through school by commercially fishing for Striped Bass when it was seen as an honorable profession. I along with just about everyone else who fished in the late seventies and early eighties sold most of what we caught. It was a case of economics, ie; being on the verge of financial ruin most of the time, paying for school then being engaged and then newly married with a new home etc., it was a lot to pay for.

I sold my last fish in the fall of 86'. I stopped because I didn't need the extra money anymore and most of all because I had and have friends that are true commercial fishermen, meaning they do it all year 'round. Now these guys over the last ten years have taken a beating. They fish day boats. Twenty footers that go out when conditions permit and what with limits on cod and the like they can barely eak out a living. The one thing they have in common is that they do it because they love the work. They are not office types or warehouse types and any kind of onshore work just doesn't suit thier personalities. They didn't rape the oceans like the bigger draggers and such. They were lucky to do a thousand pounds in several days let alone in one half way decent haul.

My point is this. The letting out of licenses to people that have jobs onshore already and make $38.00 an hour fitting pipes or selling cars etc.is wrong. If your going to sell Bass then you should make your entire living from commercial fishing, year round.
I have said this a thousand times but how would you like it if somone showed up at your job, pulled up alongside and said to you that from now on for the next 8 weeks or so he is going to get a share of your salary? That's what is going on with anyone getting a license for selling bass as of this moment. Not fair.

I fish the beach and from my skiff 4 or 5 times a week. The number of recreational anglers seeking Bass has tripled in the last five years or so. The amount of fish they take home is enormous compared to the commercial catch. Sure we know how much the commercials take. They have to report it to the state and the state publish's those figures. Recs don't but if they did it would open alot of eyes.

Right now making it a gamefish and the efforts of SBF is a blatant attempt to skewer the view of the general public to thier one sided view. It is the cause of many without the benefit of the experience of the many years it takes to truly know the bass and the history of the fishery. I have seen bad times. In '82 I fished the canal religiously all season, night tides and day tides with some of the best bass fishermen the canal has ever seen and I caught two (2) all season form beginning to end. The cause of the decline to that level wasn't overfishing, it was the careless plundering of the eco system that supports the larval striped bass. DDT use in tobacco fields along the shores of the Chesapeake, pollution in the Hudson and acid rain. Not overfishing.

The striper is a fish with tremendous fecundity. Given the right conditions it spawns millions of fry. That should be the aim of SBF. To protect the environment that nutures the healthy re-production of the Striped Bass. To see that restrictions on the netting of forage fish that the Bass need to have when they reach the larger sizes is made into law. To restore the once abundant stocks of fish like Menhaden, Mullet and Herring.

Protect those resources and the bass will take care of themselves. Add to this a 36" limit for commercial and recreational fishermen alike at that size limit the law for the entire range of the Striped Bass. The Bass is an interstate traveller and belongs not to one state only and should be regulated as such. Not 18' here, 28' there, that's stupid management. And, lastly, again, make it legal for only the true commercial fisherman to harvest the Striped Bass, not weekend warriors and vacationing plumbers and office workers.

Just my two cents, thanks for listening.

"uffah!!"
02-19-2004, 09:33 PM
All I want to know is when is JohnR going to teach me how to catch some Striped Bass this year???

Ed B
02-20-2004, 03:57 PM
Flap, from your post is why I think the status quo should remain as is and the resource be shared equitably by all.

Flaptail said:
"My point is this. The letting out of licenses to people that have jobs onshore already and make $38.00 an hour fitting pipes or selling cars etc.is wrong. If your going to sell Bass then you should make your entire living from commercial fishing, year round.
I have said this a thousand times but how would you like it if somone showed up at your job, pulled up alongside and said to you that from now on for the next 8 weeks or so he is going to get a share of your salary? That's what is going on with anyone getting a license for selling bass as of this moment. Not fair."


You would first have to decide who is the "real commercial fisherman". Do you pull 1040 Tax Forms? Does the guy have an inheritance? How about if his wife brings home a salary? Do you disqualify him if he has a side job? Lots of things to think about.
Is a lobster fisherman or a dragger captain more entitled to sell a bass than a guy working in a Seven Eleven who doesn't make much more than minimum? And really anyboby in industry can grab your whole salary at any time. They just call it outsourcing, or competition. Businesses fold all the time and people get laid off. Thats the competitive market place at work.

My main point is that every select group has lobbied to give themselves the maximum share of the resource that they can reasonably aqcuire. We've heard all the arguments over the years.

Along comes a new group of fly fishing guides and tackle manufacturers, starts a website and comes up with a bunch of reasons why they want the resource for themselves. And on and on it goes.

There are sooooo many more fish around now than in the old days when we fished together, that an equitable distribution can be found if we all try. With the more groups in it, the more voices will be heard to keep the process as democratic as possible. I say maintain the status quo. ;)

Flaptail
02-20-2004, 06:17 PM
Ed, I bow to the eloquence of your statement. The only thing is that when considering all the "other considerations " we may get caught up in the old "what if a dinosaur eats my house" theory when we opt to think of class status, inheritance, side jobs and the like.

Proof in a 1040a or other likewise printed history of income would tell the talein my theory. We could discuss it one night over the rythym of the surf as we cruise in my truck along a outer cape beach. What do you say?

I agree with your statement on the true interest of SBF. Pity they where the Emperors new clothes forall to see.

Crazy though it be true at our middle age we are "old timers" at this contest. Let's get together and talk of old times and glory days soon. OK my friend? ;)

Ed B
02-20-2004, 06:50 PM
It is never easy trying to decide who should be entitled to what resources and still retain the democratic principles. As the years go by I have more respect for those who make the rules regardless of what the critics say. It is not an easy process.

I agree we have to fish again this season. The "rhythm of the surf" I like that. We will tell good stories and maybe catch a few too. :D ;)

Ed

Fly Rod
02-21-2004, 01:01 PM
Flaptail says
Letting out licences to people that have jobs on shore is wrong

Hello !!! Flaptail :smash: wake up this is "America" land of opportunity.
Your saying that car salesmen; pipe fitters; store clerks; computer gurus,etc. should be denied a commercial license if they are not full time commercial fishermen.So they can't supplement there income by commercial fishing or lobstering part time.

So you must also mean that commercial fishermen can't work on shore to supplement there income.

I know full time commercial fishermen that do work on shore when they are not out fishing . Some do construction work. I know one gill netter that when prices are low or weather like a month ago sets him back does carpentry work to supplement his income.
I've hired fishermen in the past when some have come on hard times. Maybe I won't do that anymore.

And it is interesting that you made that statement because a couple weeks ago we were talking about that at coffee. A few gill netters are going to try to get a state fishing law to deny part timers from fishing commercial. Maybe if they do that maybe I could apply for your job to supplement my income.:laughs:

Flaptail
02-23-2004, 05:53 PM
If you understood, then you wouldn't have replied, why do you think these guys need a second job? Cause they want to? Don't you think that if they could make enough from fishing instead of competing with other knuckleheads they would work ashore? :wall: :rtfm: :yawn:

Fly Rod
02-25-2004, 05:57 PM
Commercial fishermen up here that want to fish make damn good money.
New cars; new houses they aren't hurting.
Maybe after this Amendment 13 goes into effect they might as more fishing days may be taken away. Then they will target other fish.

Crafty Angler
02-27-2004, 10:20 AM
Hey, I'm in agreement with Flap, John and Ed. Status quo, with a 36" limit coastwide in the migratory range.

If you're really worried about the long-term health of the fishery start making noise to save the pogies, the main forage (or what should be) for bass. Get the purse seiners outta business and you're gonna take an enormous step in the right direction.

SAVE THE POGIES!!!!!

Screw the whales, dammit, they already got plenty of help now.

Fly Rod
02-27-2004, 10:22 PM
Where ya been man!!! There are no pogies. Yes a true die hard striper fisherman will go out to the river at one o ' clock in the morning, set his bait net that he paid 30 bucks for the permit ,bust his a$$ till day light for a dozen pogies and then go fishing. " AWH!!! I'm tired".
Did you say "perse seiners" or "perse snatches?" Name for us three perse seiners that you know that are fishing for pogies.
The pogie bussiness is dead! dead!! dead!!! Yes it may come alive once again. There are only a 1/2 dozen commercial boat permits out there and a couple of my friends have one. they keep dreaming of it being worth there time to catch them.

You must be kidding about a 36" size limit. Don't you remember we had a 36" limit that you the recreational fisherman wanted lowered. 36" was standed when they opened up the fishery.

Crafty Angler
02-27-2004, 11:52 PM
"Where ya been man!!! There are no pogies....Name for us three perse (sic) seiners that you know that are fishing for pogies."

"Omega Protein is the world's largest manufacturer of heart-healthy fish oils containing Omega-3 fatty acids for human consumption, as well as specialty fish meals and fish oil used as value-added ingredients in aquaculture, swine and other livestock feeds. Omega Protein makes its products from menhaden, an Omega-3 rich fish that is not utilized for seafood, but which is abundantly available along the U.S. Gulf of Mexico and Atlantic Coasts."

"The Company utilizes a fleet of fishing vessels supported by spotter aircraft to supply menhaden to its four processing facilities in Louisiana, Mississippi and Virginia. We provide more than 1,000 jobs in the states where we operate. "

Well, it appears that somebody's seining pogies down South - so there's one, lemme come up with a coupla more...

Wait, Ark Bait up this way...there's two. Whaddya think, there might be at least a couple more between Virginia and Maine? Possible, huh? :rolleyes:

"You must be kidding about a 36" size limit. Don't you remember we had a 36" limit that you the recreational fisherman wanted lowered."

Yeah, I'm a rec but I assume you're using the editorial "you", Fly Rod, since I don't recall personally supporting anything to lower the size limit. I have a lot of friends who are comms and I don't - and never would - support making striped bass a game fish coastwide.

Like Ed said, it's a shared resource and it should be shared equitably.

So if you want to ensure a healthy fishery for ALL of us, screw the whales, SAVE THE POGIES!!!!!

Fly Rod
02-28-2004, 09:17 AM
The biggest part of commercial pogie fishing is down off New Jersey, south for around these parts and they are just as abundent as herring are up here. As for up this way there are only about 6 commercial licenses. They use to fish Boston Harbor,and allot of areas here. For the small amount of pogies up here does not make it fesible to fish commercially. Lot of them pogies From Jersey get shipped up this way for lobsta bait,mainly Maine. Maine lobsta men seem to prefer pogies
Stripe bassers basically do not benifit from pogies from the gulf of Mexico or from the southern states.

Also when I said name 6 that do fish commercially I didn't mean in the whole world. Go from Rhode Island, North.

And when I say "YOU" I mean plural.

I agree that it should be a shared resouce.
It was the recreational guys that wanted the 36" limit lowered.
I would rather see it at 36" up & down the coast. I wish that they never changed it
We are all recs until that 3-4 week season!!!!

Crafty Angler
02-28-2004, 01:33 PM
Amen, brother, amen.

Flaptail
04-27-2004, 12:58 PM
When the limit was 36 inches the fishing was the best I had ever seen and like you guys I wish it would go back to that. One fish a day at 36" and the commercial limit at 36" also.

David Manzi
04-27-2004, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Flaptail
When the limit was 36 inches the fishing was the best I had ever seen and like you guys I wish it would go back to that. One fish a day at 36" and the commercial limit at 36" also.
Amen, I was at that hearing and was dead aginst lowering the size limet down.

Steve call me ,I left mssg. need to know for plans

BasicPatrick
05-02-2004, 12:58 AM
Wow,

I am a regular on this site and frequent no other site. I missed this one thread, this was probably divine intervention.

I think a lot of what has been said is very healthy debate. Many of those posting have had good valid points. Also, there have been some gross mis-statements of fact made.

Before throwing my 2 cents in, I hope all of you show up this coming Monday & Tuesday nights for the MA DMF hearings that will adress amongst other things...reducing the MA commercial take to 20 fish per day and 10 on opening Day & Sundays. If you can not make it (very few ever show up), send in a letter with your comments. Check out the MA DMF web site for details. Also say hello, it will not be hard to notice me. :D

My 2 Cents

1...I will not adress, and fisheries managers also find it hard to adress anyone that breaks the regs. A criminal is a criminal. There will always be criminals. That is whether it is the enormous amount of short fish taken by the rec criminal or the illegally sold fish by commercials. Yes, management plans allow for some accounting of these illegally removed fish but how coulld we count them. Bottom line is more enforcement is needed and that will only come with MONEY & Political Will.

Political Will will not come until people show up and scream for more enforcement. I have been at 95% of the SB related hearings over the last 5 years and I can assure you that more independent persons have posted on this thread than have shown up at any one hearing. This does not constitute political will. Money is even harder to get and schools, 9-11 security, etc are rightfully in front of this issue on the State's budget list. A shame, no doubt, but a fact.

2...Protecting forage fish should be by far #1 when it comes to SB issues. Many have used good examples to back this up here. Currently there are two small cast net/Gill net guys harvesting Menhaden for sale at Bait in MA. Not one Pogey boat is left. thank god. numbers are slowly on the increase but are minimal

3...The MA Commercial SB system is set up and intended to be a part time, non-professional commercial fishery. Current DMF leadership & the majority of the members of the MA SB Advisory Panel want it that way.

As soon as displaced Professional commercial fishers enter this fishery looking for the next species to fish for, most will continue unsucessful practices (long term) and blow out their own new buisness. theeir pattern is next to be looking for government funded buyouts, larger quotas, and all the same issues as the last 7 species these professional commercials have overfished and screwed up. Not to mention that this commercial fishery can not support full time commercial efforts from any realistic financial perspective. Giving the professional commercial fishers the exclusive SB Commercial fishery is akin to introducing the drug addict to Methodone Maitenance instead of their Heroin Habit. (Very Very few ever adress their asddication and most go back to Heroin). This group needs to learn to change their Industry, aka Detox.

Another reason to keep the MA SB Commercial fishery non-professional is that it is an entryway for recs into the fishing industry in general. Many like Flap were MA Commercial SB fishers and moved on to other areas of the industry. Many, Many used this fishery while getting their charter Businesses up and running.

4...Stripers forever is a radical organization. Ok, this is America and they have the right to express their opinion. Their participation in the debate has and will shine light on needed issues. However, democracy works better that dictatorships and they will not gain Gamefish status because they do not have enough support. I choose to ignore them most of the time as I have the right to disagree. SF is small and do not represent even 1% of the 700,000 recs that fish MA salt water each year. As soon as you tell a rec that "Gamefish" means no dinner, no support.

5...Though many of us here on these boards would like to think that we represent the average rec, we do not. Most recs are bait dunkin meat fishin casual fishers that want a keeper to take home. Studies are showing that the average rec lands less than 1 keeper per year, not per trip, per year. I used to argue that this was rediculous, but I started to ask everyone that I know who fishes and now, even though I think the data could be better, I agree that not many do land keepers. My point is that many of us can land SB over 36", but many can not.

fishdog13
05-03-2004, 05:57 PM
LIMIT ALL NON COMMERCIAL ROD &REEL 1 TAKEHOME PER WEEK .YA A SLOT LIMIT IS IN ORDER TO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Flaptail
06-22-2004, 11:57 AM
Stick a fork in this stupid thread, it's DONE.................................!

Stripers Forever, really translates to "Stripers for Just Us":smash:

fishdog13
06-25-2004, 04:21 PM
agaian the dang tree huggers are here too . i guess these sponsors get non of my money . next i list pole #ers commercial fisherman have to eat too. i believe in recreational slot of 1 per day and a slot size that will keep them coming back .

fishdog13
12-06-2004, 05:10 PM
i'm hungry enough so are my kids . so all you [ apparently he couldn't spell "pathetic"] fools can go back to you're desks and quit you're whinning.:af:

Why don't you bring something constructive to this instead of just being an jackass?

JohnR
12-07-2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by fishdog13
agaian the dang tree huggers are here too . i guess these sponsors get non of my money . next i list pole #ers commercial fisherman have to eat too. i believe in recreational slot of 1 per day and a slot size that will keep them coming back .

I believe in a slot, I believe in a reduction in the comm catch and I believe in mostly shutting down the commercial menhaden and herring fisheries. Leave some for the commercial lobstermen and some for the comm/rec anglers, some for healthy dietary foods but not for cat food, fertilizer, and lubricants.

Do you think that overfishing is good? Obviously you can't be commercial bass fisherman because, yes, you WOULD starve doing that. You MUST be doing other kinds of fishing. So let me ask you something - do YOU think the fisheries, even commercial fishing, would benefit by more forage fish?

As for your "pathetic" comment, I think you were pretty pathetic with it.... unless you happened to spell that wrong which I doubt.

Oh, and sponsorship here has zero bearing on how we discuss fisheries stuff. Unlike a lot of the "sponsors" in the National Fisherman :doh: . Never has and nerver will. StripersForever doesn't exactly have a link here either....

CANAL RAT
12-19-2004, 08:33 AM
the striped bass is too valuable to be persued by select comercial interests it does not deserve to be caught by gillnets and meat fisherman. the striped bass should be treated like the amazing creature it is. i only keep a striper every once and a while and i wont keep a fish over 40inches to preserve the spawing stock. i want to see a slot limit put in place in every state to protect the spawing stock

here on this link there is a slide show of how they used to net stripers it rather sicking http://www.noreast.com/homepage/index.cfm scroll down the right of the page until you see the boxed pic of dead stripers it has a link next to the pic that says slide show WATCH IT THINK ABOUT IT

Flaptail
02-26-2005, 09:03 PM
John, for the love of God! End this stupid thread!:smash:

MakoMike
02-28-2005, 08:12 AM
God! Maybe, since it is such an icon of nobility, we should just completely ban fishing for stripers?

Brad Burns has a solution looking for a problem.

fishdog13
03-02-2005, 05:09 PM
DMF proposal to allow dealers to sell during April through November striped bass legally caught and documented from out-of-state. Whole fish would have to conform to the Massachusetts 34Ē minimum size and bear an official tag designating state of origin. This proposal does not alter the existing rules governing imported striped bass during December through March.