News from The Associated Press (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OBAMA_TAXES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-09-18-03-44-46)

Polls have consistently shown that Americans strongly support tax increases to reduce the deficit.

Even among Republicans 74% appear to believe some tax increases are necessary.

On Deficit, Americans Prefer Spending Cuts; Open to Tax Hikes (http://www.gallup.com/poll/148472/Deficit-Americans-Prefer-Spending-Cuts-Open-Tax-Hikes.aspx)

While both parties are going to have to get real about spending, the GOP leadership is out of step with the American people.

-spence

Polls have consistently shown that Americans strongly support tax increases to reduce the deficit.

Even among Republicans 74% appear to believe some tax increases are necessary.

On Deficit, Americans Prefer Spending Cuts; Open to Tax Hikes (http://www.gallup.com/poll/148472/Deficit-Americans-Prefer-Spending-Cuts-Open-Tax-Hikes.aspx)

While both parties are going to have to get real about spending, the GOP leadership is out of step with the American people.

-spence

Wow the top 4% pay 47% of the taxes and the poll shows that result. I guess 74% of us are ok with that:rotf2:

It's ALL HOCUS POCUS

News from The Associated Press (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OBAMA_DEFICITS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-09-18-23-33-29)

No matter how sorry JohnR and Spence feel about this guy, he's as dumb as a friggin turnip.

He really thinks this is real? This is his plan?

WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

it make sense to change the capital gains tax for people making over 250K. The rate should be equal to other wages. Thats a simple fix and will generate billions.
it does not make sense to change the tax rate AND also limit deducitons and ALSO change the cap gains rate.

It's ALL HOCUS POCUS

News from The Associated Press (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OBAMA_DEFICITS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-09-18-23-33-29)

No matter how sorry JohnR and Spence feel about this guy, he's as dumb as a friggin turnip.

He really thinks this is real? This is his plan?

WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Suppose the plan "works." Just put aside any Constitutional "objections" and any dynamic scoring of effects to economic production and any theoritical predictions of how it may affect the slide to more dependence on a stronger central power, etc., etc., what happens if the national debt is paid and the budget is in balance? If the plan stays in place, we will have arrived at a point where spending is down and taxes are up (which proves that the problem always was spending). The Federal Government will be awash in "revenue." Will it act responsibly? What will it do with all that money? Give it back? Cut taxes? INCREASE SPENDING? Hasn't all the spending to this point been, in the eyes of the spenders, responsible or in the interest of its constituents? What will stop the Federal Government from doing what it has always thought was responsible?

This is a plan to pay for an increase in spending not to balance the budget.

Sure is. This doesn't fix anything. It's the same ol bloated bag of poo it was before it was enacted then where's it get us...nowhere

This is a plan to pay for an increase in spending not to balance the budget.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Polls have consistently shown that Americans strongly support tax increases to reduce the deficit.

Even among Republicans 74% appear to believe some tax increases are necessary.

On Deficit, Americans Prefer Spending Cuts; Open to Tax Hikes (http://www.gallup.com/poll/148472/Deficit-Americans-Prefer-Spending-Cuts-Open-Tax-Hikes.aspx)

While both parties are going to have to get real about spending, the GOP leadership is out of step with the American people.

-spence

Spence - from your link: 50% approve only custs or of some tax increases with mostly with spending cuts.
Only 11% support by mostly tax increases. Shape the Narrative :rotf2:

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/srxuqqm8qkax643rbt9k-w.gif

It's ALL HOCUS POCUS

News from The Associated Press (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OBAMA_DEFICITS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-09-18-23-33-29)

No matter how sorry JohnR and Spence feel about this guy, he's as dumb as a friggin turnip.

He really thinks this is real? This is his plan?

WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF


Not sure where you get me supporting him :huh: but I would rather see honest solutions that work regardless of who proposes.

Speaking of honest solutions, this is the cornerstone of his deficit program? Additional taxes + 1 trillion that was going to go away anyway is crappy math.

That was tongue in cheek John you said the other day you felt sympathy for him cuz I was calling him names :)

Crappy math....I been saying that here for about 2-3 months now. It's all fuzzy bs/hocus pocus. I don't think it's going to "fix" anything.. I don't have any say in the matter nor will his new taxes affect me, but I'm sure that there will be something thrown in there somewhere that will cost me more and more...that's the way it always works isn't it?

Spence - from your link: 50% approve only custs or of some tax increases with mostly with spending cuts.
Only 11% support by mostly tax increases. Shape the Narrative :rotf2:

No, the poll supports my statement as written.

-spence

No, the poll supports my statement as written.

-spence

If we are to be governed by mob opinion what is the future of individual liberty? On the other hand, the administration certainly doesn't care about being out of step with the American public on abortion or the so-called health care bill.

If we are to be governed by mob opinion what is the future of individual liberty? On the other hand, the administration certainly doesn't care about being out of step with the American public on abortion or the so-called health care bill.
Are they?

On abortion I think the public consistently supports the right to an abortion with some divergence on restrictions.

Support for the Health Care Bill at the time of passage was over 50%. That Obama made many mistakes when promoting it doesn't change the fact that the public supports reform.

-spence

Are they?

Are you answering my question with a question? Before you respond to my question about your question to my original question, I will actually answer your question--using polls to decide on legislation would be forcing majority "opinion" on the rights of the minorities. Unequal taxation on a minority of individuals simply because a majority likes the idea is not principled, Constitutionally protected due process or equal representation. It would be governing by mob opinion at the expense of individual rights.

On abortion I think the public consistently supports the right to an abortion with some divergence on restrictions.

Public opinion is solidly against partial birth abortion.

Support for the Health Care Bill at the time of passage was over 50%. That Obama made many mistakes when promoting it doesn't change the fact that the public supports reform.

-spence

I wasn't talking about reform. Was that not clear when I said "so-called health care bill?" Perhaps I am informed incorrectly on the polls, but I thought there was consistent majority opposition to the bill. I apologize if I was wrong. The point was that polls though they might be useful to someone running for office, are not a way to govern.

consistency

September 20, 2011
Obama Hits Bottom

Pres. Barack Obama promised to have a plan to pay for his massive new stimulus bill by Monday. He broke that promise, as he has broken so many others, and remains in the “plan to have a plan” stage of his inscrutable meditations, having only made yet another unsubstantial speech, full of high sentiment and short on details.

President Obama keeps repeating the words “Pass This Bill” like a third-grader who has just mastered a new vocabulary word, but it is worth noting that, at the moment, there is only half a bill: the 155 pages of stimulus spending he calls the American Jobs Act. That second part — the part where this is all “paid for” — has not condensed from the vapor that surrounds the president.
.................................................. .......

September 20, 2011
Health-Care Chaos
States air frustrations over Obamacare’s confusing rules.

Officials from states both red and blue are frustrated and confused about Obamacare, and even those who want to implement the law are privately expressing anger at the Obama administration for providing them so little information on how to proceed.

The National Governors Association recently called a meeting of state officials to discuss implementation of the massive health-care law. On Friday, the NGA circulated a summary of the two-day meeting, “Timelines, State Options, and Federal Regulations,” which was attended by 120 officials from 40 states and territories.

The three major components of the law — insurance reform, Medicaid expansion, and health-insurance exchanges — are primarily the states’ responsibilities, but the states must work within the federal government’s rules, and the administration has been very slow to explain what those rules are. “Federal guidance has yet to be released or finalized on many issues,” the NGA report said, “confronting states with a lack of clarity.”

I wasn't talking about reform. Was that not clear when I said "so-called health care bill?" Perhaps I am informed incorrectly on the polls, but I thought there was consistent majority opposition to the bill. I apologize if I was wrong. The point was that polls though they might be useful to someone running for office, are not a way to govern.

USA Today poll was 49% approved at time of passage...for Spence that would be "most all of America"

it make sense to change the capital gains tax for people making over 250K. The rate should be equal to other wages. Thats a simple fix and will generate billions.


It's already double taxation as taxes were paid on the $$ before invested.

To raise CG tax would make people think before willing to take a chance
in investing in stock which companies need for capitalization and
creating jobs.

Market wouldn't like it and it would affect the retirement and investment funds except for the the tax exempt IRA, 401K etc.

Support for the Health Care Bill at the time of passage was over 50%.

-spence

At the time of passage when no one knew what was in the 3000 pages.

What are the current polls showing?

current polls how that 51-56 % want a repeal of the health care law...HOWEVER...IF you keep going, with what the people want...:)
(the same ones being polled with the repeal question) those answering, prefer, by a 2 to 1 margin , Universal Health Care....

ABCNEWS.com : U.S. Health Care Concerns Increase (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/US/healthcare031020_poll.html)


you can google up several polls... and polls, like most everything else, can be twisted to show the desired result...

hey, face it, we is FUBAR.... and no one man, with the current state of affairs in DC, or the US, for that matter, in the current state of hard line stonewalling, is going to solve ANY important issue...

after all it's in the true owners hands, not ours....

.

Support for the Health Care Bill at the time of passage was over 50%. -spence

that is incorrect.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a 51% favorable response. Many cite 49% as was noted above. All within the same margin of error.

But to have 51% or 49% for means the against will be lower as there's always a % of undecided.

Granted, Obama lost the PR battle and support now is much lower.

-spence

I'm pretty sure I've seen a 51% favorable response. Many cite 49% as was noted above. All within the same margin of error.

But to have 51% or 49% for means the against will be lower as there's always a % of undecided.

Granted, Obama lost the PR battle and support now is much lower.

-spence

At the time it didn't matter if 99% of America were against the damn thing . Pelosie and Obama were going to pass it. I hope people don't forget the BS that they pulled in Obama's first year. It got us where we are today.

It's already double taxation as taxes were paid on the $$ before invested.

To raise CG tax would make people think before willing to take a chance
in investing in stock which companies need for capitalization and
creating jobs.

Market wouldn't like it and it would affect the retirement and investment funds except for the the tax exempt IRA, 401K etc.

you're only taxed on the gains, not the initial investment so not sure its double taxation. The market would recover quickly, I dont think it would be a big hit. A lot of $$$ is funds and institutional investment which wouldnt impact the average investor
Look at the web news postings the last few days and people are seeing O's proposal for what it is. He is not tackling the problem. He is throwing it over the fence and meanwhile - taxing FAMILIES making over 250k more, AND limiting their deductions AND suggesting (via the Buffet rule) that these families (you know millionaires who make 250K) will pay a higher rate on cap gains? Do you guys realize that all these increases are ANDS, meaning multiple hits??????Where is the tax reform? When are we getting rid of the AMT, which already dings the working families HARD? This is a shameful, no-brain approach which is the same thing O has been proposing over and over. He is f'ing over the working, successful families who are fueling this economy!

for your pleasure -
http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/20/news/economy/buffett_rule_milllonaires/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2

At the time it didn't matter if 99% of America were against the damn thing . Pelosie and Obama were going to pass it. I hope people don't forget the BS that they pulled in Obama's first year. It got us where we are today.
It's funny, you can dis the Health Care Bill but ignore the fact that private insurance costs are completely out of control.

I agree with the Britts over at the ECONOMIST...the HCB was a good thing, pass it so it can be fixed.

People want reform.

-spence

you're only taxed on the gains, not the initial investment so not sure its double taxation.



RIJ, your taxed 2x when you get your paycheck, and then taxed again on the same
money that you invest by the capital gains tax.

It's funny, you can dis the Health Care Bill but ignore the fact that private insurance costs are completely out of control.


People want reform.

-spence

This is getting old but,
Pass tort reform.
Open up interstate competition.
Get the, what is it, 600-900 billion from Medicare fraud.

RIJ, your taxed 2x when you get your paycheck, and then taxed again on the same
money that you invest by the capital gains tax.

And if you really "hit life's lottery" you get hit again . . .

Where does Buffet's exposure to the estate tax enter into his pontifications?

It's funny, you can dis the Health Care Bill but ignore the fact that private insurance costs are completely out of control.

Which costs are you talking about? The cost to the insurance companies to provide the insurance? The insurance premiums? The price that hospitals, doctors, various health providers charge? Don't all those providers also have to be insured? How about the costs of litigation? The costs of regulation? Little is actually said in your sentence, and much is implied. The major implication is that costs need to be controlled. That begs the question, by whom? I guess your next sentence is the answer.

I agree with the Britts over at the ECONOMIST...the HCB was a good thing, pass it so it can be fixed.

Of course--the government. Not just the government in an old fashioned American Constitutional self government expressed at local and State levels way, but the Federal Government acting in its typical current mode of top down illegal way. Pass a bad unconstitutional bill. And hooray to some socialist Britts telling Americans what is economically good. And what good form--pass a bad bill so that it can be fixed. Not fix a bill (that is not legally the Federal gvt's to legislate) so that it can be passed. Pass it then fix it. Talk about being out of control!

People want reform.

-spence

We the people are told that we want reform. By whom? Rigged polls? Reform is a convenient word. It covers a lot and can mean many things--some contradictory. If you surround it with leading other words, it can sound like exactly the thing you want. It can also lead you away from what really angers you--the thing you mentioned in your first sentence--cost. This is just a guess (I didn't take a poll), I think most people want to pay less (for everything). The illegal HCB doesn't promise to do that. Maybe it will be "fixed." But it is not a true re-forming. It is a third party pay system with more government controls. It is an escalation of the "vector" in which we've been heading.

you're only taxed on the gains, not the initial investment so not sure its double taxation
for your pleasure -
Buffett Rule: Sounds simple but ... not so much - Sep. 20, 2011 (http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/20/news/economy/buffett_rule_milllonaires/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2)

Bingo. Some of my take on it... so guy A goes to work, makes $50,000 busting his arse in the mill or whatever and gets hit @ 25%. Multi-millionaire ceo gets $100,000 or whatever capital gains from money sitting an account and gets taxed on that at 18% (not sure what the percentages actually are). Not sure that is a reasonable policy.

Bingo. Some of my take on it... so guy A goes to work, makes $50,000 busting his arse in the mill or whatever and gets hit @ 25%. Multi-millionaire ceo gets $100,000 or whatever capital gains from money sitting an account and gets taxed on that at 18% (not sure what the percentages actually are). Not sure that is a reasonable policy.

Gulp....i actually agree.

Its even bigger than that as many super-wealthy are not collecting salaries. They are buying and selling businesses, investments, etc and making cap gains which are taxed at a lower rate. AND dont forget, you can deduct losses!
Thats why we shouldnt raise tax rates across the board. It doesnt fix the problem. Fix the tax code.

Flat tax. 13-18% across the board. No matter what you make. Everyone contributes. The rich not paying taxes is as distasteful as those who collect undeservedly. Those who do not contribute are parasites no matter what the level.

Bingo. Some of my take on it... so guy A goes to work, makes $50,000 busting his arse in the mill or whatever and gets hit @ 25%. Multi-millionaire ceo gets $100,000 or whatever capital gains from money sitting an account and gets taxed on that at 18% (not sure what the percentages actually are). Not sure that is a reasonable policy.

Apples and oranges, as some like to say on this forum. Capital gains tax and income tax are two different kinds of tax. You might say capital gains at a lower rate than employment tax is a "targeted" tax. It tries to create results other than mere "revenue." Supposedly, it should "stimulate" investment. So folks who have extra "wealth," rather than spending it, or stuffing it under the mattress, might put it to productive use for the rest of society by capitalizing business and job production. Capital gains benefits the wealthy only because they can invest more. But it doesn't favor the wealthy within its structure. Middle class or lower often get lower or no capital gains tax (e.g., when selling a home). It would be more honest to compare similar taxes as paid by the rich versus the poor. A wealthy person, perhaps a CEO of a big corp., who "earns" income, may have an income tax and a capital gains tax to pay. His income tax will be at a higher rate than that of a middle class or poor earner. His capital gains tax might also be at a higher rate. If there are loop holes, if they are not "targeted" to help create a more productive outcome, they should be eliminated. If capital gains is, ultimately, a scam and doesn't produce the desired investment, it shouldn't be tweaked, it should be eliminated and all gains should be considered income as earned.

But an underlying problem in deciding is whether our economic view is win/win or win/lose. When tax policy benefits or harms all parties, its a win/win (or lose/lose). When it benefits one party and harms another its win/lose. Win/lose creates internal warfare and jealousy. If capitl gains tax is not a win/win, in my opinion, it should be abolished.

Which costs are you talking about? The cost to the insurance companies to provide the insurance? The insurance premiums? The price that hospitals, doctors, various health providers charge? Don't all those providers also have to be insured? How about the costs of litigation? The costs of regulation? Little is actually said in your sentence, and much is implied. The major implication is that costs need to be controlled. That begs the question, by whom? I guess your next sentence is the answer.
I'd think that if the consumer can't afford the care or taxpayers can't fund Medicare the rest is moot.

Of course--the government. Not just the government in an old fashioned American Constitutional self government expressed at local and State levels way, but the Federal Government acting in its typical current mode of top down illegal way. Pass a bad unconstitutional bill. And hooray to some socialist Britts telling Americans what is economically good. And what good form--pass a bad bill so that it can be fixed. Not fix a bill (that is not legally the Federal gvt's to legislate) so that it can be passed. Pass it then fix it. Talk about being out of control!
Before Medicare, 1/2 of seniors didn't have any health coverage. I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that the States alone either can't or don't want to address the issues. Sure, we could do what Rand says and just let the sick ones die, but the taxpayers would still have to clean up the bodies.

As for the Economist, they had a good article some time ago stating exactly that. I thought you'd appreciate another sovereign nations perspective :devil2: :hihi:

We the people are told that we want reform. By whom? Rigged polls? Reform is a convenient word. It covers a lot and can mean many things--some contradictory. If you surround it with leading other words, it can sound like exactly the thing you want. It can also lead you away from what really angers you--the thing you mentioned in your first sentence--cost. This is just a guess (I didn't take a poll), I think most people want to pay less (for everything). The illegal HCB doesn't promise to do that. Maybe it will be "fixed." But it is not a true re-forming. It is a third party pay system with more government controls. It is an escalation of the "vector" in which we've been heading.
Good to agree we don't think polls are necessary on the subject. I think the average person can see the yearly increases in their contributions to coverage and reductions in services, if they actually have it in the first place.

I believe the CBO did estimate cost reductions of 7-10% long-term, primarily to Medicare. While perhaps the benefits of tort reform are over-estimated, I think this would be an easy savings. Interstate competition and ending the price fixing on prescription drugs would also help, but good luck getting them passed. Reducing fraud would be a big savings buy might require more government oversight (certainly centralized records) that many oppose.

The crazy thing is how much more the US spends on health care per person (40% or so?) than other developed nations and how little we're getting for that extra investment. I don't really see how just regulating less will address this issue in a meaningful way. Increasing competition might certainly lower costs but also bears the risk of reducing quality of service below existing standards...and then you're back to more regulation.

I've seen proposals that believe that if health care providers were paid on total treatment rather than individual treatments doctors would have an incentive to administer less unnecessary medications and tests.

The bottom line is that more action is needed to continue to reform the system. I'd prefer a combination of the best ideas where complimentary, but the reality is nobody has the perfect solution...at least not that I've seen.

-spence

I'd think that if the consumer can't afford the care or taxpayers can't fund Medicare the rest is moot.

Being as how the consumers are the taxpayers, then neither the pre-HCB "system" nor the impending "HCB" system (fixed or not), are a "solution" to costs. At least the pre-HCB system had more of a relation to market forces, and would have even more with less regulation.

Before Medicare, 1/2 of seniors didn't have any health coverage. I
think there's a reasonable argument to be made that the States alone either can't or don't want to address the issues. Sure, we could do what Rand says and just let the sick ones die, but the taxpayers would still have to clean up the bodies.

Before medicare health costs were much lower.

As for the Economist, they had a good article some time ago stating exactly that. I thought you'd appreciate another sovereign nations perspective :devil2: :hihi:

Wha . . .? All nations are sovereign. Our nation has levels of sovereignty. The individual being the most sovereign. Well . . . it sort of used to be that way.

Good to agree we don't think polls are necessary on the subject. I think the average person can see the yearly increases in their contributions to coverage and reductions in services, if they actually have it in the first place.

So far, though the average person bitched about the rising costs, he was able to pay. There certainly have arisen many market options (cadillac plans, cheaper ones, medical savings, catastrophic insurance, etc.) to lower the cost. Wasn't the impetus for the HCB to cover the so-called uninsured. It doesn't, other than fictitious projections which we know are most always over-optimistic, seem to have lowered the price.

I believe the CBO did estimate cost reductions of 7-10% long-term, primarily to Medicare. While perhaps the benefits of tort reform are over-estimated, I think this would be an easy savings. Interstate competition and ending the price fixing on prescription drugs would also help, but good luck getting them passed. Reducing fraud would be a big savings buy might require more government oversight (certainly centralized records) that many oppose.

Yeah, there a lot of "solutions" but Federal mandate is not even legal, never mind more expensive to our debt problem.

The crazy thing is how much more the US spends on health care per person (40% or so?) than other developed nations and how little we're getting for that extra investment. I don't really see how just regulating less will address this issue in a meaningful way. Increasing competition might certainly lower costs but also bears the risk of reducing quality of service below existing standards...and then you're back to more regulation.

Others see how over-regulating was the problem

I've seen proposals that believe that if health care providers were paid on total treatment rather than individual treatments doctors would have an incentive to administer less unnecessary medications and tests.

The bottom line is that more action is needed to continue to reform the system. I'd prefer a combination of the best ideas where complimentary, but the reality is nobody has the perfect solution...at least not that I've seen.

-spence

That "perfect" thing is not resolvable. Market solutions, ugly as they seem to some, work out problems more sustainably than centrally planned economies.

Being as how the consumers are the taxpayers, then neither the pre-HCB "system" nor the impending "HCB" system (fixed or not), are a "solution" to costs. At least the pre-HCB system had more of a relation to market forces, and would have even more with less regulation.
We let Pharma companies charge what ever they want for patentable drugs without any negotiation.

Not my idea of market forces at work...

Before medicare health costs were much lower.
Over simplification. I could see medicare raising some costs as it put more people into the health care system. And unlike many industries, health care is still pretty manual and doesn't scale well.

But there are a lot of other reasons costs have increased. A big one is the proliferation of advanced (i.e. expensive) technologies that are now standard and expected. I'd also think that we treat so much more than we did 50 years ago...ailments and diseases that simply weren't diagnosed previously.

Wha . . .? All nations are sovereign. Our nation has levels of sovereignty. The individual being the most sovereign. Well . . . it sort of used to be that way.
Joke. Although I do like the perspective of the Economist. Usually pretty smart.

So far, though the average person bitched about the rising costs, he was able to pay. There certainly have arisen many market options (cadillac plans, cheaper ones, medical savings, catastrophic insurance, etc.) to lower the cost. Wasn't the impetus for the HCB to cover the so-called uninsured. It doesn't, other than fictitious projections which we know are most always over-optimistic, seem to have lowered the price.
Being able to pay doesn't mean it's painless. I remember when my first son was born in 2003 my out of pocket was maybe a few hundred bucks. Fast forward to 2010 and my second son cost easily 10X that out of pocket. Same company and relatively the same plan. While I'm fortunately "able to pay" that few thousand bucks would put a damper on a lot of families budgets.

Yeah, there a lot of "solutions" but Federal mandate is not even legal, never mind more expensive to our debt problem.
I'll let the SCOTUS decide on legality...

Others see how over-regulating was the problem
Like I mentioned above, there are a lot of problems.

Another big one is simply how the system works, where people never really see the cost as it's passed to an insurance company and then you see only your part weeks after. People don't even question the costs they're being charged.

I switched to an HSA this year and it's making me much more aware of what's actually being billed. If the tax exemption will really save any money remains to be seen, the shyte is so complicated I can barely figure out what's going on.

That "perfect" thing is not resolvable. Market solutions, ugly as they seem to some, work out problems more sustainably than centrally planned economies.
I think market solutions are more desirable but are also easily corrupted and can be self consuming when not monitored.

Health care is somewhat unique in that most everybody needs it, we have a very complex system to deliver it, the massive size of the industry attracts a lot of R&D, hospitals are obligated to dispense some of it and most of the system is for profit.

The consumer is in essence quite detached from the market in many ways. If a market solution is the answer, perhaps that's really the root of the problem.

-spence

We let Pharma companies charge what ever they want for patentable drugs without any negotiation.

Not my idea of market forces at work...

Free market does allow big pharma to charge whatever they want--usually what it thinks the market will bare. Charging more diminishes sales. The negotiation in a free market is between seller and buyer, usually expressed as sale or no sale. The reason big pharma can charge "whatever they want" is because of the controlled market regulated by the "negotiation" between it and the Government (FDA), which precludes competition from smaller companies and entrepeneurs due to the high price and length of time required by the regulations, and due as well to the cozy collusion between the FDA and pharma.

Over simplification. I could see medicare raising some costs as it put more people into the health care system. And unlike many industries, health care is still pretty manual and doesn't scale well.

Usually, volume permits price to drop. Unlike many industries, health care payment has been put in the hands of third party payers, medicare being one, and the third parties have deeper pockets than most individuals, medicare's being the deepest, which allows higher prices by the sellers (doctors, hospitals, etc.)

But there are a lot of other reasons costs have increased. A big one is the proliferation of advanced (i.e. expensive) technologies that are now standard and expected. I'd also think that we treat so much more than we did 50 years ago...ailments and diseases that simply weren't diagnosed previously.

Again, because of wealthier third party payers, the health industry can pay more for technologies (similar to how government is ripped off as it pays for its technology when buying for "the people"--especially the military). In those industries that have to sell directly to individual buyers their costs, including technology, is lower.

Joke. Although I do like the perspective of the Economist. Usually pretty smart.

OK. :rotf2: Smart, unfortunately, doesn't always equate with right.

Being able to pay doesn't mean it's painless. I remember when my first son was born in 2003 my out of pocket was maybe a few hundred bucks. Fast forward to 2010 and my second son cost easily 10X that out of pocket. Same company and relatively the same plan. While I'm fortunately "able to pay" that few thousand bucks would put a damper on a lot of families budgets.

Please don't tell me that you believe it's the governments responsibility to make our life painless. And if your paying an insurance company to do likewise, then it better come across or you should drop it. At least in a free market you are allowed to drop it. But when government mandates, you have no choice. Suffer the pain and rejoice.

I'll let the SCOTUS decide on legality...

So you have no opinions on Constitutionality? You just blindly accept SCOTUS opinion as infallible? You don't see the obvious mis"interpretation" of the Commerce Clause that presumably gives Congress the power to tell you that you cannot grow your own vegetable garden because if everyone did, in the aggregate it would affect the price of food and destroy or distort the commercial market? You cannot see the obvious fallacy of using the General Welfare clause to give Congress the power to give succor to a select few to be paid for by others when "general" refers to all, equally, and in the construction and syntax of the Constitution the clause refers to general welfare (welfare of ALL in the same manner) as given through its enumerated powers not in any way it chooses, else it would have greater, if not exclusive, power to attend to your welfare than you would have yourself? You do not plainly see that the Necessary and Proper Clause refers to the "foregoing powers" (the enumerated powers) not any power Congress chooses to impose? The Constitution is not that long and difficult, and was meant to be understood by all, not just a select few lawyers and judges. The SCOTUS was meant to interpret whether Congress acted within its powers, not to interpret what the Constitution meant, and to apply the Constitution as written, not to apply it as the judges think would be more "responsible." The individual is supreme in our system, and as such is as much responsible to be involved with governing as are all the "servants." When the citizens "let" judges or politicians act according to their view of "responsible," and don't voice objection when they see bad judgement, they give their Constitutional power of self governing over to those servants and deserve the tyranny they allow.

Like I mentioned above, there are a lot of problems.

Another big one is simply how the system works, where people never really see the cost as it's passed to an insurance company and then you see only your part weeks after. People don't even question the costs they're being charged.

That is the nature of third party pay, whether it's private or government. And we should question both. Just as we should absolutely question our judges bad decisions. It's our money and our freedom that's at stake.

I switched to an HSA this year and it's making me much more aware of what's actually being billed. If the tax exemption will really save any money remains to be seen, the shyte is so complicated I can barely figure out what's going on.

Yes, and as regulations need to be reformed, new regulations pile on old ones and the complexity and lack of transparence becomes greater. That is the nature of law. The more detailed your regulation, the more parties, points of view and opinion are involved, the more it requires finer and more complex points of law. The Ten Commandments just wont do.

I think market solutions are more desirable but are also easily corrupted and can be self consuming when not monitored.

Government is also easily corrupted. And the corruption of Central government reaches farther than most other corruptions.
And who or what is the monitor? And who monitors the monitor? In a free market, there is a, granted loose, self regulation. This can be enhanced by limited governance that is a result of consent of the people on local levels. But Central power over a large diverse market tends to create static, unevolving markets--not only stagnant, often imploding, but, in our case, UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

Health care is somewhat unique in that most everybody needs it, we have a very complex system to deliver it, the massive size of the industry attracts a lot of R&D, hospitals are obligated to dispense some of it and most of the system is for profit.

The consumer is in essence quite detached from the market in many ways. If a market solution is the answer, perhaps that's really the root of the problem.

-spence

Most everybody needs food, and shelter, and energy. And we have a very complex system to deliver them. When the cost of delivery is paid for by the individual buyer, it seems the price is generally lower than when a richer third party, especially the government, pays for it.

this is great...James Madison vs. Mao :uhuh:

We let Pharma companies charge what ever they want for patentable drugs without any negotiation.



-spence

Spence, are you for price control???

You are wrong about negotiations, every hospital in the country, community,
county, state and fed has a formulary and belongs to a buying group who put out bids for all compatiable drugs.

As for the price of exclusive drugs, their price is not set on the active
ingredients but on all the costs from finding a compound to bringing it
to market. It costs many millions of dollars to find a compound, test it,
do clinical trials under FDA regulations and getting approval takes years
under stringent government regulations.

Drugs represent 10.5 cents of medical costs and saves millions in
keeping patients out of hospitals. Diseases like pneumoniae, heart failure,
diabetes, depression etc. can now be treated at home.

Pharma is a big political football because people don't want to be sick and
have to pay for it. Of course they won't think twice about buying a six pack,
$5 a day cigs or a bottle of Jim Bean but moan about paying $5 a day
for a drug that gives them quality of life, keeps them out of the hospital
and prolongs their life. Politicians know it and slam Pharma knowing they can
make points because it is popular to do so by the folks.

Spence, are you for price control???

You are wrong about negotiations, every hospital in the country, community,
county, state and fed has a formulary and belongs to a buying group who put out bids for all compatiable drugs.

As for the price of exclusive drugs, their price is not set on the active
ingredients but on all the costs from finding a compound to bringing it
to market. It costs many millions of dollars to find a compound, test it,
do clinical trials under FDA regulations and getting approval takes years
under stringent government regulations.

Drugs represent 10.5 cents of medical costs and saves millions in
keeping patients out of hospitals. Diseases like pneumoniae, heart failure,
diabetes, depression etc. can now be treated at home.

Pharma is a big political football because people don't want to be sick and
have to pay for it. Of course they won't think twice about buying a six pack,
$5 a day cigs or a bottle of Jim Bean but moan about paying $5 a day
for a drug that gives them quality of life, keeps them out of the hospital
and prolongs their life. Politicians know it and slam Pharma knowing they can
make points because it is popular to do so by the folks.
I'm well aware of the business process regarding FDA regulated product development.

Here's the issue. There's competition for drug prices inside the US but the development is done for a global market. All that R&D funding to create the next category killer drug is being subsidized by US consumers because drugs are sold at lower costs (often via price controls) in pretty much every other nation. There really isn't a lot of real negotiation. This is government regulation that the industry is highly dependent on.

Hence my comment being in context of "market forces".

-spence

All that R&D funding to create the next category killer drug is being subsidized by US consumers because drugs are sold at lower costs (often via price controls) in pretty much every other nation.

-spence

So as per my first question you are for price control ?

So as per my first question you are for price control ?
I don't think the government should set prices arbitrarily but can see scenarios where regulations impacting price could be justified.

Take Canada for instance, they have price controls and as a result cheaper drugs. They also have a government system that provides healthcare for everyone, which creates almost a guaranteed customer base. So in this case the price control is balanced (to some degree) with a sure customer. Without price controls they'd risk having to ration some drugs if the manufactures decided to price them above value.

The drug companies don't have to sell to Canada, but they do anyway because the incremental production cost of the drugs is usually small compared to the development, approval and tooling processes...not to mention the tens of billions of dollars it takes to scare us all into demanding drugs for ailments we didn't even know we had.

So price controls in Canada seem to be a win/win for both the consumer and industry, but if you applied the same policy here you'd kill (or perhaps injure) the golden goose.

There is government regulation that helps pharmaceutical companies maintain higher prices across a very large market as well as regulation to ensure quality and safety which adds cost.

I don't think the pharma companies are bad, but when you do hear stories about Americans unable to afford some drugs here that are available across the border 10X cheaper it raises some questions. The pharmaceutical industry is one of the most profitable in the world. Regardless of what happens I'm sure they'll find a way to make a buck.

-spence

[QUOTE=spence;889454]I don't think the government should set prices arbitrarily but can see scenarios where regulations impacting price could be justified.

Take Canada for instance, they have price controls and as a result cheaper drugs. They also have a government system that provides healthcare for everyone, which creates almost a guaranteed customer base. So in this case the price control is balanced (to some degree) with a sure customer. Without price controls they'd risk having to ration some drugs if the manufactures decided to price them above value.
_[QUOTE]

Spence, I would love to see Canada's national formulary. Guarantee it is limited
to one drug per class which means you won't have a choice when it comes
to efficacy or side effect profile. For instance there are many statin drugs
on the market for lowering cholesterol. They are all variations of statins
but each works a little differently. When there is only one,that will be based on the cheapest, and you can't tolerate it or it's not efficacious for you, too bad.
That is One of the biggest problems with government health care, no choice AND
mediocore medicine.

Rationing drugs based on age becomes another problem as expensive chemo
drugs etc. will be too costly to add another 5 years to say maybe a 75 yr old.

Good point on killing the Golden Goose. It is already happening. Companies
will not go out on a limb in R+D if they find a compound that has a limited
use. For instance, Amphotericin B was developed years ago to treat fatal
San Juakien (sp?) Valley ,a disease limited to the valley. They won't
be willing to spend millions and years of development when there will be
no return on investment. They will stay with the large markets for cardiovasculars
and anti effectives.

Same old story, you get what you pay for.

I'm well aware of the business process regarding FDA regulated product development.

Here's the issue. There's competition for drug prices inside the US but the development is done for a global market. All that R&D funding to create the next category killer drug is being subsidized by US consumers because drugs are sold at lower costs (often via price controls) in pretty much every other nation. There really isn't a lot of real negotiation. This is government regulation that the industry is highly dependent on.

Hence my comment being in context of "market forces".

-spence

When you said that pharma charging "what ever they want" without any negotiation is not yoiur "idea of market forces at work . . ." it seemed on the one hand a contradiction since market forces do not negate charging what you desire so long as the buyer needs your product and is willing and able to pay your price. But pharma's prices are obviously not a result of market forces, so your comment was gratuitus.

Perhaps you are mixing market "forces" with market "economy"? Market "forces" are thos economic factors strictly peculiar to the market without government input, such as supply and demand. Market "economies" are largely driven by market "forces" but may have varying degrees of government intervention. As government control becomes greater, it becomes a mixed economy, and if that control is great or absolute, it is a centrally planned economy where market "forces" play little or no part.

As far as pharma's prices go, they seem to be a product not of market forces, but of more centrally planned forces--both in the U.S. and abroad.

In a "free" market, driven basically by market forces with little to no government intervention, prices would have to go down in the U.S. and up abroad. This would be so even with basic safety regulations, not with the super cautious, draconian ones of present which have massively ballooned since the thalidomide scandal of 1961-62 and have created a cozy, corrupt partnership between pharma and the FDA at the expense of free market competition and "affordable" drugs.

[Spence, I would love to see Canada's national formulary. Guarantee it is limited to one drug per class which means you won't have a choice when it comes to efficacy or side effect profile. For instance there are many statin drugs on the market for lowering cholesterol. They are all variations of statins
but each works a little differently. When there is only one,that will be based on the cheapest, and you can't tolerate it or it's not efficacious for you, too bad. That is One of the biggest problems with government health care, no choice AND mediocore medicine.
Well, Canadians would beg to differ...they love their health care. I think polls are usually 85-90% in favor.

As for prescription drugs, you can still get private insurance to cover prescriptions there...though as was mentioned above, the governments will negotiate costs which Medicare/Medicaid here isn't allowed to do by law.

I'm not sure the claim that only one drug per class is allowed is accurate. For instance, I found one report that listed % market share of the various statin drugs there.

Rationing drugs based on age becomes another problem as expensive chemo drugs etc. will be too costly to add another 5 years to say maybe a 75 yr old.
No different than in the USA.

Good point on killing the Golden Goose. It is already happening. Companies will not go out on a limb in R+D if they find a compound that has a limited use. For instance, Amphotericin B was developed years ago to treat fatal San Juakien (sp?) Valley ,a disease limited to the valley. They won't be willing to spend millions and years of development when there will be no return on investment. They will stay with the large markets for cardiovasculars and anti effectives.
I think a bigger issue is simply that the big companies are making more profit based decisions than just counting how much money is going into R&D. R&D spending is going down as they focus on better returns.

For a large organization it's probably just not practical to go after niche drugs unless you have a business model built around it. This should encourage growth in small companies to meet low volume needs.

There are a TON of companies like this in the Boston area alone.

-spence

[
Well, Canadians would beg to differ...they love their health care. I think polls are usually 85-90% in favor.



I'm not sure the claim that only one drug per class is allowed is accurate. For instance, I found one report that listed % market share of the various statin drugs there.


No different than in the USA.


I think a bigger issue is simply that the big companies are making more profit based decisions than just counting how much money is going into R&D. R&D spending is going down as they focus on better returns.

For a large organization it's probably just not practical to go after niche drugs unless you have a business model built around it. This should encourage growth in small companies to meet low volume needs.

There are a TON of companies like this in the Boston area alone.

-spence

Sources please.

If your insurance company won't cover chemo at age 75 for you, ya
betta get another company,you'll be there before ya know it.

BTW, Govt. announced today they want everyones medical records computerized
for Obamacare. :fury: Like they will remain private. :doh:
BIG BROTHER at it's best.
Whats next ?????

BTW, Govt. announced today they want everyones medical records computerized for Obamacare. :fury: Like they will remain private. :doh: BIG BROTHER at it's best.


Yeah, because when we tried to get my wifes records transfered from one doc to another, it was so effieicent with paper records :smash: it only too a few days/week...

Yeah, because when we tried to get my wifes records transfered from one doc to another, it was so effieicent with paper records :smash: it only too a few days/week...

That's not the point, your doctor controls your records now, paper or computerized.
Point being the Govt.wants control of everyone's records and hackers or bureacrats can get in.
Remember Wilkileaks.

When you said that pharma charging "what ever they want" without any negotiation is not yoiur "idea of market forces at work . . ." it seemed on the one hand a contradiction since market forces do not negate charging what you desire so long as the buyer needs your product and is willing and able to pay your price. But pharma's prices are obviously not a result of market forces, so your comment was gratuitus.

Perhaps you are mixing market "forces" with market "economy"? Market "forces" are thos economic factors strictly peculiar to the market without government input, such as supply and demand. Market "economies" are largely driven by market "forces" but may have varying degrees of government intervention. As government control becomes greater, it becomes a mixed economy, and if that control is great or absolute, it is a centrally planned economy where market "forces" play little or no part.
I'd think that government influence (here and abroad) as part of a free market economy would have a large impact on both supply and demand.

As far as pharma's prices go, they seem to be a product not of market forces, but of more centrally planned forces--both in the U.S. and abroad.

In a "free" market, driven basically by market forces with little to no government intervention, prices would have to go down in the U.S. and up abroad.
Today we have regulation that impacts both profit and loss, take away it all away and the results would be unpredictable. Perhaps lower prices from competition but also increased costs if quality standards are not maintained. Undoing a heavily regulated industry is a lot different than pretending it never existed in the first place.

This would be so even with basic safety regulations, not with the super cautious, draconian ones of present which have massively ballooned since the thalidomide scandal of 1961-62 and have created a cozy, corrupt partnership between pharma and the FDA at the expense of free market competition and "affordable" drugs.
I wouldn't say that proving a drug is safe and effective, or that it actually does what you claim it does...is "draconian". This relationship must be pretty unbearable what with all the private sector profit it creates.

-spence

Sources please.

Not going to spend the time to Google, but I'll take the Wiki as good enough...

Canadians strongly support the health system's public rather than for-profit private basis, and a 2009 poll by Nanos Research found 86.2% of Canadians surveyed supported or strongly supported "public solutions to make our public health care stronger."[6][7]

A 2009 Harris/Decima poll found 82% of Canadians preferred their healthcare system to the one in the United States, more than ten times as many as the 8% stating a preference for a US-style health care system for Canada[8] while a Strategic Counsel survey in 2008 found 91% of Canadians preferring their healthcare system to that of the U.S.[9][10] In the same poll, when asked "overall the Canadian health care system was performing very well, fairly well, not very well or not at all?" 70% of Canadians rated their system as working either "well" or "very well".[citation needed] A 2003 Gallup poll found only 25% of Americans are either "very" or "somewhat" satisfied with "the availability of affordable healthcare in the nation", versus 50% of those in the UK and 57% of Canadians. Those "very dissatisfied" made up 44% of Americans, 25% of respondents of Britons, and 17% of Canadians.[11]

In November 2004, Canadians voted Tommy Douglas, Canada's "father of Medicare", the Greatest Canadian of all time following a nationwide contest sponsored by the CBC.[12][13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_health_care#Public_opinion
I'm not saying that the Canadian system is perfect, or even that I'd want it, but that Canadians seem to like it.

If your insurance company won't cover chemo at age 75 for you, ya betta get another company,you'll be there before ya know it.
The point was that a huge amount of money is spent keeping people alive those extra years regardless if it's government sponsored or through private insurance.

Rationing, already exists in both scenarios as neither private or public care will fun increasingly expensive treatment with little return. There's also indirect rationing where charging more for drugs here than other countries either forces them to travel or prices Americans out of the treatment.

BTW, Govt. announced today they want everyones medical records computerized for Obamacare. :fury: Like they will remain private. :doh:
BIG BROTHER at it's best.
Whats next ?????
Privacy is certainly a concern, but you also complained about 600B in fraud earlier. How do you think they're going to fight this without a clear grasp of what's really going on?

If implemented property, I'd think the benefits (reduced costs, quality of care) outweigh the risks.

-spence

eQUOTE=spence;889719]
Not going to spend the time to Google, but I'll take the Wiki as good enough...
--__________________________________________________ ___________________
Spence,the info you gave was done between 2003-2009, hardly recent.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
__________________________________________________ ____________________
The point was that a huge amount of money is spent keeping people alive thoseimplemented property, I'd think the benefits (reduced costs, quality of care) outweigh the risks.
-spence[/QUOTE]

Spence, don't grow old. :)
__________________________________________________ ___________________
Don't know how cutting Medicare fraud increases quality of care?

BTW, without giving up your privacy,the medicare payment form sent
should be outlined in laymans terms. If the patient questions the procedure,
or what Doc performed it, just check it and send it back to Medicare to check
it's legitamacy with the provider
They can also check on their side which Docs over use of a code.

I'd think that government influence (here and abroad) as part of a free market economy would have a large impact on both supply and demand.

You're creating a different context here:devil2:. The original context was pharma charging whatever it wants not being your idea of market "forces." Government influence does not play a part in the traditional usage of the term "market forces". Now your also being loose with "free market." If government regulation on a market is LARGE, it is not, strictly, a "free" market, but a controlled market in either a mixed economy or a centrally planned economy. Hence, your unnecessary remark about pharma's pricing not being your idea of market forces at work. Of course, THEIR PRICING IS NOT A RESULT OF MARKET FORCES, BUT A RESULT GOVERNMENT REGULATION, that is, a result of central planning.

Today we have regulation that impacts both profit and loss, take away it all away and the results would be unpredictable. Perhaps lower prices from competition but also increased costs if quality standards are not maintained. Undoing a heavily regulated industry is a lot different than pretending it never existed in the first place.

The results can be fairly predictable if done right. The result of current conditions is obviously unsustainable. Safe quality standards can be maintained with far less government regulation and, thus, at far less cost, by allowing good manufacturing practice (GMP) certified facilities to produce generic drugs with a warning label that they are not produced under the same standards required for FDA approved generic drugs, etc. This would also help to eliminate the big problem of drug counterfeiting that exists now since it would not be as profitable to produce fakes of cheaper drugs. And it would help to reduce the problem of defective generic drugs produced in China or India. Another way to lower costs is not to ban all other forms of a drug that is granted orphan drug status. These drugs are for rare diseases, and not profitable to produce unless exorbitant prices can be charged.

I wouldn't say that proving a drug is safe and effective, or that it actually does what you claim it does...is "draconian". This relationship must be pretty unbearable what with all the private sector profit it creates.

-spence

When regulation is so expensive that it can bankrupt a country, I would say that it is draconian. Medicare has an unfunded liability of $24.6 trillion (downgraded from $37 trillion in 2009 by fictitious "assumptions" to hide the true liability). That's just Medicare. Not Social Security, the national debt, the military, etc., just Medicare. Subsidizing drugs are a major portion of that liability. And, as you have implied several times, the "relationship" (between the government and pharma) is what sustains the profits that bother you.

Not going to spend the time to Google, but I'll take the Wiki as good enough...

Canadians strongly support the health system's public rather than for-profit private basis, and a 2009 poll by Nanos Research found 86.2% of Canadians surveyed supported or strongly supported "public solutions to make our public health care stronger."[6][7]

A 2009 Harris/Decima poll found 82% of Canadians preferred their healthcare system to the one in the United States.

-spence
more from your WIKI




Health care in Canada is delivered through a publicly-funded health care system, which is mostly free at the point of use and has most services provided by private entities.

I'm shocked that 82% prefer a system that is "mostly free" and when asked if they prefer it to one that they never use (American) and would have to pay for....... they chose the "mostly free" one...go figure?????

also wonder how enthusisatically they'd support their healthcare system if they were denied access to American made pharmaceuticals, American medical technology and advancements, or denied travel for American medical care when they cannot get it on their own side of the border and had to rely soley on what Canadians produced through their own "mostly free" price controlled system... ????

might still be 82% I suppose as it would still be the only thing that most of them have known since birth....and the alternative, particularly if you have to pay something...can be scary

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/31/us-health-idustre64u3xo20100531

"We can't continually see health spending growing above and beyond the growth rate in the economy because, at some point, it means crowding out of all the other government services.

"At some stage we're going to hit a breaking point."


"It's an area that Canadians don't want to see touched," said TD's Burleton. "Essentially it boils down the wishes of the population. But I think, from an economist's standpoint, we point to the fact that sometimes Canadians in the short term may not realize the cost."

[QUOTE=detbuch;889131]If there are loop holes, if they are not "targeted" to help create a more productive outcome, they should be eliminated. If capital gains is, ultimately, a scam and doesn't produce the desired investment, it shouldn't be tweaked, it should be eliminated and all gains should be considered income as earned.
QUOTE]

I agree with some of what you are saying, but it isn't really apples to oranges. It is about income and capital gains are a huge part of income for some people who have enormous amounts of money to invest. I am not sure what the answer is, but it basically equates to a tax shelter. For the guy making $50,000 working, they are limited in what they can put in an ira or 401k or roth. Are there limits on the amount of capital gains that are taxed at the 15%? I may be wrong, but it seems like the economy is driven by middle class people buying homes, cars etc. The very richest people are still investing today and many businesses are typically sitting on more cash then ever. The problem is consumer confidence is low. Call it what you like, the middle class guy that gets most of his money from working gets taxed at a rate higher than the rate for alot of money the rich guy makes through stocks. I am not sure buying stocks necessarily helps the economy in the same way the middle class guys car, home, restaurant, and gift purchases do.

[QUOTE=detbuch;889131]If there are loop holes, if they are not "targeted" to help create a more productive outcome, they should be eliminated. If capital gains is, ultimately, a scam and doesn't produce the desired investment, it shouldn't be tweaked, it should be eliminated and all gains should be considered income as earned.
QUOTE]

I agree with some of what you are saying, but it isn't really apples to oranges. It is about income and capital gains are a huge part of income for some people who have enormous amounts of money to invest. I am not sure what the answer is, but it basically equates to a tax shelter. For the guy making $50,000 working, they are limited in what they can put in an ira or 401k or roth. Are there limits on the amount of capital gains that are taxed at the 15%? I may be wrong, but it seems like the economy is driven by middle class people buying homes, cars etc. The very richest people are still investing today and many businesses are typically sitting on more cash then ever. The problem is consumer confidence is low. Call it what you like, the middle class guy that gets most of his money from working gets taxed at a rate higher than the rate for alot of money the rich guy makes through stocks. I am not sure buying stocks necessarily helps the economy in the same way the middle class guys car, home, restaurant, and gift purchases do.

I don't favor a capital gains at different rates than any other special taxes at different rates. I like the flat tax on everything. Probably won't happen. The current tax code is ridiculous. I also don't like a flat tax that has different brackets. I think eliminating people from the burden of paying taxes is wrong. If the pain of paying taxes at an equal rate is shared by all, the government is less likely to waste or spend "irresponsibly" or suffer the wrath of everybody rather than play phony games of divide and conquer.

That said, as of now, capital gains tax at lower rates is a different tax than income, or other types of tax. And the rich do pay higher capital gains tax than the rest of us. Those of us who fall in the 10% to 15% tax bracket pay no capital gains on anything we sell of value. Supposedly, as I said, giving a tax break of a rate less than that of income tax, is an incentive to invest. Maybe that is bogus. Maybe those who have "income" solely from investments would do so even at higher rates up to the 39% rate on income. Investments are often risky. A lot of money is lost on bad investments. As long as you have a job, the income is not at risk. Many who have both earned income and investment "income" might not want to risk as much on investment. Investment in new business might be hurt the most, and it is new business that is most needed. Some few who are good at it make obscene profits by investing. The amount of money that the government would realize by equalizing capital gains rates to that of income tax rates, if investment remained the same, is not huge. And if needed investment went down, revenue might drop a bit. If wealth is spent rather than invested it is it is transferred once into the economy.

I don't know if it all really works this way. I understand the bad feeling of those who see some rich folks paying a lesser rate of tax. I do see the mess of a tax system that creates jealousy and animosity between us. I do see us divided.

I'm shocked that 82% prefer a system that is "mostly free" and when asked if they prefer it to one that they never use (American) and would have to pay for....... they chose the "mostly free" one...go figure.

Ya, they like the mostly free stuff part of it, but I read last week where 51% of
Canadians are concerned about the length of time it takes to get an appointment
with their family doctor.

[QUOTE=zimmy;889854]


I understand the bad feeling of those who see some rich folks paying a lesser rate of tax. I do see the mess of a tax system that creates jealousy and animosity between us. I do see us divided.

Another promise broken. Divide and try to conquer is what's happening now
for the sake of an election a year + a way. It's only getting worse.

For the sake of the country I'd like to see Obama take what's left of his term,
and as a true leader bring us back to a united nation. That would take a
selfless man who truly wants to put his country first and serve the American
people. Swell chance.

For the sake of the country I'd like to see Obama take what's left of his term,
and as a true leader bring us back to a united nation. That would take a
selfless man who truly wants to put his country first and serve the American
people. Swell chance.
It'd also take completely dissolving the House and Senate, enacting term limits, putting limits on PACs and strict regulation on lobbying.

Our political system is broken from top to bottom and it's not because Obama hasn't delivered on most of his campaign promises and is a crappy domestic leader. This isn't something that just "popped up" in the last 3 years.

It'd also take completely dissolving the House and Senate, enacting term limits, putting limits on PACs and strict regulation on lobbying.

.

Jeezus Johnny, that sounds like a line from Chancellor Palpatine!

Liberty Dies - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp069Y_P-9M)

the future according to Johnny D

Dissolving the Old Republic - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEqg3bQJ2C0)

It'd also take completely dissolving the House and Senate, enacting term limits, putting limits on PACs and strict regulation on lobbying.

Our political system is broken from top to bottom and it's not because Obama hasn't delivered on most of his campaign promises and is a crappy domestic leader. This isn't something that just "popped up" in the last 3 years.

Debateable about his campaign promises and wether or not he's a
crappy leader.

However, the man has had 3 years, 2 of which he had control of the House
and Senate and did nothing to bring people together.
He imediately went to his own agenda of rushing HC, when the majority of the
country were against it.Same with the rush to the stimulus, and nice try to
rush for his secret jobs plan.
He started his campaign a few months ago, and I doubt he has the time
to actually do his job. He, his agenda and fund raising are the only things he has time for.

[QUOTE=detbuch;889131]If there are loop holes, if they are not "targeted" to help create a more productive outcome, they should be eliminated. If capital gains is, ultimately, a scam and doesn't produce the desired investment, it shouldn't be tweaked, it should be eliminated and all gains should be considered income as earned.
QUOTE]

I agree with some of what you are saying, but it isn't really apples to oranges. It is about income and capital gains are a huge part of income for some people who have enormous amounts of money to invest. I am not sure what the answer is, but it basically equates to a tax shelter. For the guy making $50,000 working, they are limited in what they can put in an ira or 401k or roth. Are there limits on the amount of capital gains that are taxed at the 15%? I may be wrong, but it seems like the economy is driven by middle class people buying homes, cars etc. The very richest people are still investing today and many businesses are typically sitting on more cash then ever. The problem is consumer confidence is low. Call it what you like, the middle class guy that gets most of his money from working gets taxed at a rate higher than the rate for alot of money the rich guy makes through stocks. I am not sure buying stocks necessarily helps the economy in the same way the middle class guys car, home, restaurant, and gift purchases do.

A guy works hard to earn an income, pays some % in taxes then puts his money at risk by loaning it to a business so they can grow. If the business grows, he makes some money, if not he loses it. He has already been taxed on the initial investment, by taxing him at a higher rate on the profits from his loan, you reduce the amount of money available to grow other businesses he may make a loan to.. In my eyes helping companies grow through loaning them money is at least as powerful as growth through consumption, but a business can't grow without some level of both.

[QUOTE=zimmy;889854]

A guy works hard to earn an income, pays some % in taxes then puts his money at risk by loaning it to a business so they can grow. If the business grows, he makes some money, if not he loses it. He has already been taxed on the initial investment, by taxing him at a higher rate on the profits from his loan, you reduce the amount of money available to grow other businesses he may make a loan to.. In my eyes helping companies grow through loaning them money is at least as powerful as growth through consumption, but a business can't grow without some level of both.

Well put.
Politicans are well aware of the jealousy factor and love to use it to
try to make points by making it sound like, "its just not fair" with out
reminding people of the risks that are taken, and the good effects the
market has on the economy and jobs.

I wonder why someone like Buffet has confidence that the government will spend his excess money more wisely, more productively, more beneficially, more anything good, than he. Hasn 't he been more successful in producing wealth than the government? Why would he want to fund a wasteful, irresponsible government that is better at getting in debt than it is at producing wealth--a government that borrows and prints vastly more money than he or others like him combined can give? Why wouldn't he use his excess money to actually do usefull, beneficial things--build hospitals, repair roads, donate to charities, create scholarships? It is admirable that he has lead a frugal life and has already been abundantly charitable and he plans to give most of it away. But he, apparently feels that he still has too much money and wants the government to take more in taxes. Couldn't this excess money more efficiently go directly to needed places, rather than giving it to a government that would return less of it, if at all, to those places, and squander much of it to pay off its chosen winners and supporters. I guess he must think the government is doing a great job. Stupid of me to wonder.

And how about, instead of raising the tax rate of the ultra rich from 16-17% to the same rate as those earning $100,000 or so, LOWERING the rate of the latter so the ultra rich payed the same rate. Isn't the 17% rate what some calculate a flat tax rate should be. Everybody pay 17%.