California lesbian couple are supposedly giving their 11 son hormone treatments to delay the onset of puberty, so that he can have adequate time to decide what sex he wants to be!!!!!

It's idiots like this that will screw up every other same-sex couple's chances of having or adopting and raising children in a normal home.

This stinks of "parental agenda" where the parents are dictating what the child will be, based on THEIR preference.
Unless he was exposed to adverse sexuality at a young age, I can't fathom any kid really "knowing" who they are and what they want to be. That's call GROWING UP!!!!

By forcing the child to endure the effects of the drugs, and the reactions from his classmates (remember that kids can be brutally honest, and can't lie like adults), they seem like they are planning on "creating" a child of their dreams, and making $$ off subsequent lawsuits from the resulting teactions from his peers.

Figures it takes a pair of California morons to possibly ruin the chances of normal same-sex couples from having their own chance at a family.

I can see the legal ramifications of this now, and it ain't pretty!

Speaking of gender benders.

Why didn't anyone say anything about Chaz's little weenie va j j slip the other night on dwts. Wife said every time he moved a certain way it flashed his little donkey door to the world...

has that been bonofied?

I saw his barn door open at 3:48 I think the time was, so she probably did dance with it open.

California lesbian couple are supposedly giving their 11 son hormone treatments to delay the onset of puberty, so that he can have adequate time to decide what sex he wants to be!!!!!

It's idiots like this that will screw up every other same-sex couple's chances of having or adopting and raising children in a normal home.

This stinks of "parental agenda" where the parents are dictating what the child will be, based on THEIR preference.
Unless he was exposed to adverse sexuality at a young age, I can't fathom any kid really "knowing" who they are and what they want to be. That's call GROWING UP!!!!

By forcing the child to endure the effects of the drugs, and the reactions from his classmates (remember that kids can be brutally honest, and can't lie like adults), they seem like they are planning on "creating" a child of their dreams, and making $$ off subsequent lawsuits from the resulting teactions from his peers.

Figures it takes a pair of California morons to possibly ruin the chances of normal same-sex couples from having their own chance at a family.

I can see the legal ramifications of this now, and it ain't pretty!



"Figures it takes a pair of California morons to possibly ruin the chances of normal same-sex couples from having their own chance at a family"

Normal same-sex couples ?
What the F*** is a normal same sex couple ?

Yeah! Sew a pink star on their striped pajamas and put them on the boxcar to Buchenwald.

What the F*** is a normal same sex couple ?

You know, the couple that happens to be gay and wants to have a child they can love...

freakin idiots

What doctor or pharmacy is giving them the medicine?

There are idiots in all walks of life......these 2 need to be removed from the Gene pool

I'm for same sex marriage but this crosses the line.

Everybody just calm the F down and take your meds!

Homocil Commercial from NiNo (http://FunnyOrDie.com/m/lld)

I'm for same sex marriage but this crosses the line.

This has nothing to do with Same sex marriage......and everything to do w/ Stupidity

This has nothing to do with Same sex marriage......and everything to do w/ Stupidity

Thank you for carrying the voice of reason.

My aim was that the parents were virtually forcing their lifestyle on the child before the child was truly ready to understand what lifestyle HE wanted to pursue.

This is a twisted take on the parents living vicariously through their children, but kicked up a bit on the idiot meter!!!

This has nothing to do with Same sex marriage......and everything to do w/ Stupidity

Absolutely.
I bet you can find some nut-job straight couple doing something similar.

I only made my post in response to RR's.....

I really don't have a problem with people's sexuality. If a person's gay, a person's gay, so what.....
The whole marriage thing, I don't know about that. I'm ok with legal partnerships. But marriage is a case where the separation of church and state becomes blurred. Marriage holds both legal and religious connotations that could be described as inseparable. I don't think the founders foresaw this contingency.
What I don't get is why do gay people feel the need to continually engage in discussions about their sexuality? Straight people don't spend the evening discussing what the straight experience is like. But once a gay person is out with you, and you are accepting, their sexuality is close to all they talk about. Freaking boring as hell to listen to. I barely care about my own sex life.

if you don,t care about your own sex life >>>>JUST send it over here ><><><>:devil2:

There's a lot of daylight barely care and willing to give it away. Plus, the idea of your clammy hands all over her.....I shudder. :yak4:

You know, the couple that happens to be gay and wants to have a child they can love...



There is nothing normal about a gays wanting to have a kid.
Call me a homaphobe or any other name they have for it.
Takes 1 man 1 woman to conceive a kid, anything else is screwing with human nature.

Isn't it just adoption or am I misiing something?
It's about as normal as Angelina Jolie adopting black children.
If you have loving parents that's a good thing,right?

[
Any parent knows kids are reflections of their upbringing and surroundings
You can't tell me a kind is not going to be influenced by being raised by 2 gay guys or 2 lesbians.
I know plenty of lesbians and gays
Every last one has a story why they ended up that way
Divorce and mon or dad abanding them is probably he most common.
Kids getting molested is probably a close 2nd.



QUOTE=Sea Dangles;894577]Isn't it just adoption or am I misiing something?
It's about as normal as Angelina Jolie adopting black children.
If you have loving parents that's a good thing,right?[/QUOTE]
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Then why is it that 2 kids from the same family can be so different? You have cases of twins taking two very different paths where one ends up in an Ivy League school and the other in jail. One ends up straight and the other gay...

Personally I don't think gay parents will have any impact on a childs sexual orientation.Just as traditional parents won't "cure" a child who is gay.I am certainly NOT defending the hormone BS,I just don't think a home environment makes any difference in the outcome in such cases.

Gays have been around forever and have generally been accepted by progressive societies. In true history the movie 300 was actually based on 150 gay couples who fought with courage and desperation to protect their lover just as you would to protect your wife.

I think I'd have the edge in that one. I tell my wife, "Sure, you make more money, but I can really burn you in a foot race."

There are plenty of Heterosexual Drunks/Crackheads/A-holes raising kids in this world that are having an influence on the children too.....

But if a gay couple raises a child right, unlike these 2 #^&#^&#^&#^&wads, the kid can grow up, get married, and have kids of there own someday.....just like a normal person.

again, Gay marriage isn't at the center of this....Stupidity is. You can't fix stupid

if a gay couple raises a child right, unlike these 2 #^&#^&#^&#^&wads, the kid can grow up, get married, and have kids of there own someday.....just like a normal person.



Does this imply gays aren't normal people?

In true history the movie 300 was actually based on 150 gay couples who fought with courage and desperation to protect their lover just as you would to protect your wife.

hold on a minute, is that really true?

I don't know Jimmy but it was in a book I read last winter about the 100 greatest battles in history.You can't make this stuff up.

I never saw it, but isn't the movie about the battle of Thermopylae? I thought they were protecting a small pass through the mountains so the Persians couldn't get through. Are they considered gay because they wear speedos and capes?

Does this imply gays aren't normal people?

Nope..

I absolutely agree, this world is full of #^&#^&#^&#^&ed up people, gay or straight.
But I stand by with saying gays should have nothing to do with raising kids. The kids will absolutely be influenced by their life style.
It all comes down to human nature.
We are only put on this planet for 1 purpose, reproduction.
2 guys butt #^&#^&#^&#^&ing each other or 2 girls putting on a strap on and doing each other have no possibility of reproduction !





There are plenty of Heterosexual Drunks/Crackheads/A-holes raising kids in this world that are having an influence on the children too.....

But if a gay couple raises a child right, unlike these 2 #^&#^&#^&#^&wads, the kid can grow up, get married, and have kids of there own someday.....just like a normal person.

again, Gay marriage isn't at the center of this....Stupidity is. You can't fix stupid

I absolutely agree, this world is full of #^&#^&#^&#^&ed up people, gay or straight.
But I stand by with saying gays should have nothing to do with raising kids. The kids will absolutely be influenced by their life style.
It all comes down to human nature.
We are only put on this planet for 1 purpose, reproduction.
2 guys butt #^&#^&#^&#^&ing each other or 2 girls putting on a strap on and doing each other have no possibility of reproduction !

Wow.
just wow.

Will your kids be influenced by your lifestyle? Absolutely, as was I influenced by my parents.

glad I was raised to be tolerant though.....

Thank the Lord /? my kids weren,t influenced by me ><><><:):devil2:

The person who gave these two idiots acess to hormones and syringes is a bigger moron than the "parents ".

It was the Athenians that embraced homosexuality, the Spartans were at Thermopylae Pass - the battle that the movie The 300 was based on. The Spartans most certainly did not embrace homosexuality. But, they didn't embrace anything besides militarism either. They killed something like 18,000 Persians due to their fierceness and the tactical advantage the narrow pass provided.

Learn about it SEX AND HISTORY -- STANLEY PACION
A series of previously published, though recently edited articles on love and sex and their meaning and import at various times and places. Each article in the series is meant to represent a chapter in the history of the idea of love.

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ANCIENT SPARTA'S STATE FOSTERED HOMOSEXUALITY
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SPARTA: AN EXPERIMENT IN STATE-FOSTERED HOMOSEXUALITY

Spartan militarism and the well-being of the state depended on sexual love between men.
Stanley J Pacion

SPARTA.This article represents an historical essay which was originally published in the medical journal, Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, Volume IV, August 1970, pp.28-32. The journal is now defunct, and its availability is severely circumscribed since it is usually found in the archive stacks of university, medical libraries where access to the general public is often denied. Still I was pleasantly surprised to find the many online references
to this article.

I have taken this opportunity to edit and rewrite the essay, but I have also tried to retain its original content and style. Its analytical style operates under the school practice commonly referred to or called, explanation du text. The only bibliographical source I use here comes from a book commonly entitled, PLUTARCH'S LIVES. I see, Project Gutenberg uses the Arthur Hugh Clough edition, which has the original John Dryden translation from the Greek and the Project calls its online version, Plutarch: Lives of the noble Grecians and Romans.

I remember one of my professors of classics commenting that what we really knew about these figures from the ancient world could be written on the back of a postage stamp. I will have more to say about my academic training and my professors of classics later in this series on sex in antiquity. The triumph of Christianity and barbarian invasions of Europe meant the destruction of the greater part of the ancient world's literature. Very little of these ancient primary sources remain. For Sparta this central fact proves doubly true since even the archaeological evidence is scant. The ancient Spartans were interested in military might, not monuments and architecture. But there is no doubt that Plutarch does retain both the book knowledge, then extant in the ancient world libraries, and what was preserved in the oral tradition. So it is to his Lycurgus that I turn to abstract the quality and meaning of life under the Spartan constitution.


Writers have consistently depicted Spartan society as one of military heroism, of rugged, masculine self-reliance and hard-nosed practicality. Even at this date the adjective “Spartan” remains synonymous with words like brave and austere.

Yet there is another part of the traditional image of ancient Sparta, one not so commonly acknowledged. It is the rigidly controlled Sparta, a state based on a constitution which aimed to repress individuality for the sake of communal ends. State control extended even to the sexual lives of the citizen-soldiers and the women. The entire state was geared toward military efficacy and both homosexual and heterosexual expression were governed by the aim of increasing military effectiveness.

One of the first and greatest shapers of our image of Sparta is the Greek moralist and historian, Plutarch, who lived during the period of the first Roman Caesars, 46AD - 120AD. Plutarch’s sketch of the Spartan state appears in his life of Lycurgus, the legendary lawgiver and founder of Sparta, who lived somewhere between 700-630BC. Thus some seven hundred years separate the historian biographer and the establishment of the Spartan constitution. While there is little doubt that Lycurgus [image right] was a real historical figure, the claim that he was founder of Sparta and the author of its constitution has its source in legend. Plutarch’s Lycurgus and the Sparta he fashioned represents the traditional folk story, handed down for the generations, of a great man in a dark, remote age. Plutarch’s Sparta is, therefore, not history, though there may be some historical evidence for his account. But neither is it simply fiction or legend. Plutarch himself readily admits that nothing can be said about Lycurgus to which there would be anything like common consent. Lycurgus remains a figure steeped in historical controversy.


Homosexuality


In spite of the emphasis Lycurgus placed on regulating sexual relations, the popular image of Sparta admits hardly a trace of it. The major Utopian philosophers who eagerly adopted Lycurgus's other, especially his communal and military reforms into their respective systems make no note of his sexual arrangements. The intellectual tradition in the West has strangely abbreviated Plutarch’s pagan image of Sparta. While idealizing its martial ideals, it has censored its way of love. Even today the Wikipedia article on Lycurgus makes no mention that the primary force of his legislation involved insuring strong sex/love based bonds between men. Constitutional law of ancient Sparta mandated homosexuality. The soldier-citizens were lovers. Sex and love were used to foster allegiance, man to man, so to foster, augment the fighting spirit. The time has come -- it is actually long overdue -- to call a halt to this bowdlerization.

If for the sake of propriety Spartan marriage practices have been read out of the popular image of the society in the West, it is little wonder that its institutionalized homosexuality has received the same treatment. Yet in Plutarch’s Sparta homosexuality formed the cornerstone of the commonwealth. Older men choose young male lovers. There was no real age of consent in ancient Sparta. Childhood innocence had no meaning in the warrior state. All aspects of the life cycle were subjoined to the aim of making soldiers fit for war and the preservation of the common weal. Its practice was such an integral part of Spartan life that Plutarch writes: “By the time they were come to this age (twelve years old) there was not any of the more hopeful boys who had not a lover to bear him company.” Without a realization of the profound male love relations that animated it, no understanding of Spartan society is possible. Sparta was a homosexual state by law. As such Plutarch's account of its constitution represents a vital chapter in queer history.

Like other institutions in Plutarch’s Sparta, homosexuality had as its end the preservation of the state. Lycurgus believed that love ties between men who were comrades-in-arms increased allegiance to their ranks. In a word, homosexual love promoted battlefield determination -- lovers joined in the battle field side-by-side, the lawgiver felt, made for better soldiering -- and all the better fostered the love of state.

Spartan marriage law reflected this belief. As we shall see, infrequent heterosexual relations permitted by the state and the sharing of wives were intended to break down familial attachments. The Spartan male developed no sense of responsibility toward either wife or child. Duty was directed to the commonwealth, to all its wives and children alike. By permitting male companionship to be the only source of permanent sexual gratification, Lycurgus guaranteed that love would remain in the service of the state.

Homosexuality also had the function of promoting good conduct among Spartan men. Because he viewed self-esteem as insufficient spur to honor, Lycurgus ordered lovers accountable for each other’s actions. Plutarch gives a good instance of this edict’s application: “Their lovers and favourers, too, had a share in the young boy’s honour or disgrace; and there goes the story that one of them was fined by the magistrate because the lad who he loved cried out effeminately as he was fighting.” In Sparta no behavior had consequence only to self, but always directly involved an individual dear to oneself as well. Homosexuality, by making glory as well as disrepute doubly felt, guaranteed the state optimum performance from its soldiers.

To provide ample opportunity for acquaintance and the forming of passionate attachments, Lycurgus legislated mandatory communal meals for the Spartan male. These common eating halls had two named in Greek and Plutarch comments on both of them: “…the Cretans called them andria, because only men came to them. The Lacedaemonians (The Spartans) called them phiditia, that is, by changing l into d, the same as philitia, love feasts, because that, by eating and drinking together, they had the opportunity of making friends.”

Beside the communal meal, barrack or company life provided other opportunity for securing intimate male friendship. Its effect on marriage indicated its force in shaping Spartan life. A feeling of dread characterized the martial arrangement. The young husband, Plutarch reports, visited his bride “in fear and shame, and with circumspection.” The possibility of incurring the anger of jealous, tough barrack-lovers was more than sufficient reason for the caution and apprehension of the Spartan bridegroom. Institutionalized homosexuality created a life under continuous surveillance. A watchful and ever-present lover policed every action. There was not a time or place in Plutarch’s Sparta without someone present to put a man in mind of his duty, and punish him if he neglected it.

The life of the Spartan male, therefore, was one of constant dilemma. Though encouraged into homosexuality from youth and conditioned to it by the institutions in which he lived, the law nonetheless required him to marry. Lycurgus not only excluded bachelors from participation in the greatly appreciated naked processions of women, but also prescribed, “…in wintertime, the officers compelled them [the bachelors] to march naked themselves round the market-place, singing as they went a certain song to their own disgrace, that they justly suffered this punishment for disobeying the laws. Moreover, they were denied that respect and observance which the men paid their elders.” The need for children as well as the preservation of duty to the state inspired this contradictory legislation for Sparta. A frustrating, anxious, unfulfilled life was its product. Lycurgus may well have created the psychological source of the violence on which Spartan militarism rested.


Marriage and Women


It has often been observed that one of the key institutions for social control is marriage. Plutarch’s Sparta proves no exception to this general rule. Lycurgus legislated marriage with a special gusto, dictating the time, the length, even the qualifications of the marriage partners.

In Plutarch’s Sparta the citizen was educated for marriage. The right to love was an acquired property. Men and women earned intimacy by observing the precepts of the law. Though marital educational provisions applied equally to both sexes, the success of the marriage institution seemed largely dependent on the rearing of women. To secure their fitness for marriage, Lycurgus ordered maidens to exercise by calisthenics, wrestling, running, spear-throwing, and casting the dart. “And to the end he might take away their overgreat tenderness and fear of exposure to the air, and all acquired womanishness, he ordered that the young women should go naked in the processions, as well as the young men, and dance too in that condition at certain solemn feasts, singing certain songs, whilst the young men stood, around, seeing and hearing them.”


The ostensible aim in this kind of training was eugenic, “… that the fruit they conceived might, in strong and healthy bodies, take firmer root and find better growth, and withal that they, with this greater vigor, might be the more able to undergo the pains of childbearing.” For Lycurgus a simple principle governed human heredity: the issue of physically healthy children. Proper marital education for women insured the Spartan state a future supply of well-endowed soldiers.

The training of women also had another purpose in Plutarch’s Sparta. The naked public processions and naked exercises of women were incitements to marriage. The well-being of the state rested on not only the quality of its children, but also the quantity. Lycurgus, therefore, viewed celibacy as tantamount to crime. If the nudity of maidens were not sufficient inducement to move a man from bachelorhood, it became the means by which to punish him: “… those who continued bachelors,” Plutarch writes, “were in a degree disfranchised by law; for they were excluded from the sight of those public processions in which the young man and maidens danced naked…”

Lycurgus made no provision, however, for female celibacy. The meaning of the omission is difficult to determine from Plutarch’s account. It may reflect either a belief in the natural heterosexual lasciviousness of women, or a lack of female choice in the matter.

The wedding night also fell under the jurisdiction of Lycurgus’ legislation. In a tender passage Plutarch describes the legally prescribed ritual of consummation in Spartan society: “… she who superintended the wedding comes and clips the hair of the bride close around her head, dresses her up in mans’ clothes, and leaves her upon a mattress in the dark; afterwards comes the bridegroom, in his every-day clothes, sober and composed as having supped at the common table, and, entering privately into the room where the bride lies, unites her virgin zone, and takes her to himself; and after staying some time together, he returns composedly to his own apartment, to sleep as usual with the other young men.”

Plutarch’s portrayal of the wedding-night ritual set the whole tone for the Spartan marriage. Because the law required military exercises during the day and confinement to barracks at night, relations were difficult and rare. “And so he continues to do so, spending his days, and, indeed, his nights with them [the men], visiting his bride in fear and shame and with circumspection, when he thought he should not be observed; she, also, on her part, using her wit to help and find favorable opportunities for their meeting when company was out of the way.” The imposition was so severe, Plutarch adds, that a husband would sometimes have a child by his wife before he ever saw her face by daylight.

Lycurgus’ reason for imposing this hardship on marriage was, again, the well-being of the commonwealth. Lycurgus viewed marriage as a delicate institution, easily ruined by too active an application. Human emotions, though hotly triggered, were apt to burn themselves out in any permanent relationship. Hence the good marriage, indeed the utopian one, brought together couples, “… with their bodies healthy and vigorous, and their affections fresh and lively, unsated and undulled by easy access and long continuance with each other; while their partings were always early enough to leave behind in each of them some remaining fire of longing and mutual delight.”

By allowing marriage to import the fullest measure of delight, Lycurgus preserved the institution’s viability. He thereby insured a constant source of soldiers for the commonwealth. But Lycurgus’ restriction of sexual relations also shows hint of eugenic purpose. Both healthy and vigorous bodies as well at potent emotions, Plutarch writes, attended the moment of conception. Children who embodied the spark of their original conception was the prime aim of Lycurgus’ marriage law for Sparta.

Lycurgus’ use of marriage for the procurement of good children extended even into his notion of fidelity. While his economic reforms had dictated a community of goods, his social reforms provided for a community of wives. The basis for this sharing of married women was not orgiastic, rather it reflected the belief that children were not so much the property of their parents as of the whole commonwealth.

To insure fine breeding, Lycurgus would not allow his citizens, the future arsenal of the state, begot by first comers, but by the best men that could be found. The preservation of the commonweal, the best citizen soldiers gave wife swapping a new meaning. No narrow emotions were allowed under the Sparta constitution. All matters, including sexual favors and the begetting of children, were mandated to insure warrior of the best calibre. It has been often remark that in ancient Sparta soldiering went under the banner "one for all, and all for one" that motto extended to intimacy. The whole idea of private relations, private property, wa


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HISTORY OF LOVE Sparta Homosexuality Marriage
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. here Joe;

Yeah, they were Spartan gays.
kick ass and lick ass.
What are you going to be for Halloween Joe?

In cities such as Sparta and Thebes, there appeared to be a particularly strong emphasis on relationships between men and youths, and it was considered an important part of their education. On the night of their wedding, Spartan wives were expected to lie in a dark room and dress as a man - presumably to help their husbands make the transition from homosexual to heterosexual love. While in Thebes, the general Epaminondas commanded a regiment composed of 150 pairs of lovers. This 'Band of Lovers' became a formidable fighting force, with lover defending lover until death.

Obscure, defunct, academic journals from the back of the stacks?
Was it an abstract, or was it peer-reviewed? Abstracts have been known to represent the conjecture of one academic, who could be at a crackpot at the end of long tenure at Bulawala U.
Not the first time I've been wrong in my life if am, it just doesn't jibe with what I've read. Though honestly, I can't remember the source. Whatever. They dressed kind of gay, that's for sure.