...to send Michelle and Jill to a NASCAR race to promote Joining Forces.While Joining Forces is a great cause,all you Obama worshipers who think the primary reason for this was the troops I would ask what planet do you live on?This was done for one reason and one reason only.....image and votes come Nov.'12.Pathetic is our president.

1/20/2013 :)

1/20/2013 :)

Can't come soon enough !

NASCAR fans vote!?
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your not in :bc:

she got like 5-10 min of interview time. Thank god for DVRs. At least Biden's wife seems smarter than her husband.

I bet in 2013 Romney will drive the motorcoach down.

...to send Michelle and Jill to a NASCAR race to promote Joining Forces.While Joining Forces is a great cause,all you Obama worshipers who think the primary reason for this was the troops I would ask what planet do you live on?This was done for one reason and one reason only.....image and votes come Nov.'12.Pathetic is our president.

Wipe.

Joining Forces is an initiative created by the Obama Administration to help support our troops and their families. Michelle and Jill are the White House spokespeople.

Pretty classy for the NASCAR fans to denigrate their efforts, it sounds like you would have been right along side them.

-spence

...to send Michelle and Jill to a NASCAR race to promote Joining Forces.While Joining Forces is a great cause,all you Obama worshipers who think the primary reason for this was the troops I would ask what planet do you live on?This was done for one reason and one reason only.....image and votes come Nov.'12.Pathetic is our president.

90% of Nascar fans are ot going to Vote for Obama.

They went to the World Series as well to promote this initiave....My guess is you will probably see them at the Superbowl too.

of all the real issues people can have with the current administration (i.e. Economy, Healthcare, Spending, etc.) to boo the 1st and 2nd ladies for standing up there to promote helping returning verterans and there families, while they are standing there w/ a wounded vet and his family, is pretty friggin lame IMHO.

They went to the World Series as well to promote this initiave....My guess is you will probably see them at the Superbowl too.

of all the real issues people can have with the current administration (i.e. Economy, Healthcare, Spending, etc.) to boo the 1st and 2nd ladies for standing up there to promote helping returning verterans and there families, while they are standing there w/ a wounded vet and his family, is pretty friggin lame IMHO.

Watch the video. The wounded vet got huge applause. The boos were reserved for Michelle, and they were richly deserved, in my opinion.

I'm a vet, and I would happily welcome any chance to boo, hiss, or otherwise heckle the first lady, and I'd sleep like a baby that night. She is utterly reprehensible. Her comment during the 2008 campaign, that Barack's nomination was "the first time in my adult life that I was proud of my country", tells you everything you need to know about her and her values. That comment is indefensible.

Personally, I'm hoping that in January 2013, she goes right back to not being proud of this country.

Laura Bush was 1st Lady for 8 years, I don't remember her getting boos in huge numbers, anywhere.

I did watch the video and I know he got a huge applause.....And I'm a vet and I still stand by it...Friggin Lame

Laura Bush was 1st Lady for 8 years, I don't remember her getting boos in huge numbers, anywhere.

She did...at Obama's inauguration....and that was Friggin Lame too...

I think its lame she was booed. I never agree with her or her husband, but she was there for the right reasons and no one makes her do these things.
This petty crap is ruining america. we cant get anything done because everyone just wants the other side to fail. Look at this debt super-commission. You would be fired in my company if you went away for 3 months to solve a problem and came back with nothing. Inexcusable. Lou Dobbs had a great rant a few years back about americas lack of getting things done, I wish I could find it.

I think its lame she was booed. I never agree with her or her husband, but she was there for the right reasons and no one makes her do these things.
This petty crap is ruining america. we cant get anything done because everyone just wants the other side to fail. Look at this debt super-commission. You would be fired in my company if you went away for 3 months to solve a problem and came back with nothing. Inexcusable. Lou Dobbs had a great rant a few years back about americas lack of getting things done, I wish I could find it.
X2. :)
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Watch the video. The wounded vet got huge applause. The boos were reserved for Michelle, and they were richly deserved, in my opinion.

I'm a vet, and I would happily welcome any chance to boo, hiss, or otherwise heckle the first lady, and I'd sleep like a baby that night. She is utterly reprehensible. Her comment during the 2008 campaign, that Barack's nomination was "the first time in my adult life that I was proud of my country", tells you everything you need to know about her and her values. That comment is indefensible.

Personally, I'm hoping that in January 2013, she goes right back to not being proud of this country.

Laura Bush was 1st Lady for 8 years, I don't remember her getting boos in huge numbers, anywhere.

wow, you really come across as miserable (and petty also).

Calling a woman a "half beast" and other demeaning things says a lot about your values.

I think its lame she was booed. I never agree with her or her husband, but she was there for the right reasons and no one makes her do these things.
This petty crap is ruining america. we cant get anything done because everyone just wants the other side to fail.

Totally agree. Each side would rather have the other side seem as failing rather than doing what is best for the country.

hey look Norm he just got 1,100 more!

Ex-Solyndra Staff To Get $13,000 Each In TAA Federal Aid (http://blogs.investors.com/capitalhill/index.php/home/35-politicsinvesting/6645-solyndra-staff-get-13000-taa-federal-aid)

wow, you really come across as miserable (and petty also).

Calling a woman a "half beast" and other demeaning things says a lot about your values.



Totally agree. Each side would rather have the other side seem as failing rather than doing what is best for the country.

"wow, you really come across as miserable (and petty also)."

I hear what you, TDF, and RIJIMMY are saying, and there's a lot to be said for civility. However, the Obamas have made it abundantly clear what they think of blue collar folks who live in rural America. You know, those of us who cling to our guns and religion because we are bitter and, of course, racist (for which Obama's excuse was that he didn't know he was being recorded, and that was a good enough excuse for liberals). The people who follow NASCAR are the exact same folks that our President and first lady like to belittle, so forgive me if I don't feel obliged to kneel down and kiss her ring. This isn't England (yet), they're not royalty, and we are not their subjects. They work for us, not the other way around.

'Calling a woman a "half beast" and other demeaning things says a lot about your values. "

The only value on display here is my unwillingness to do fake-nice. Maddow has, on countless occasions, referred to people like me as tea bagging racists. So again, I make no apologies for treating her in similar fashion.

Funny. I only hear cries for civility when conservatives act boorish, never when feral liberals run wild.

Last night, my golden retriever and I did our weekly visit to a hospice patient who wanted to see a friendly dog again. I'll put my tradiitonal Irish-Catholic values up against the liberal platform any day of the week, and twice on Sunday. But that doesn't mean I'm going to let anyone piss down my back and then tell me it's raining.

"rather than doing what is best for the country"

Gimme a break. If someone feels that our debt is a legitimate threat to our survival, why would they ever agree to letting Obama flush another trillion dollars down the toilet on failed stimulus programs? Amazing. During the last few years of the Bush administration, the Democrats didn't exactly roll over and let him do whatever he wanted. Liberals like to say that dissent "is the highest form of patriotism", but clearly they only feel that way when THEY are obstructing conservatives. When conservatives dissent, it's the lowest form of racism.

Jim for president 2012
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"wow, you really come across as miserable (and petty also)."

I hear what you, TDF, and RIJIMMY are saying, and there's a lot to be said for civility. However, the Obamas have made it abundantly clear what they think of blue collar folks who live in rural America. You know, those of us who cling to our guns and religion because we are bitter and, of course, racist (for which Obama's excuse was that he didn't know he was being recorded, and that was a good enough excuse for liberals). The people who follow NASCAR are the exact same folks that our President and first lady like to belittle, so forgive me if I don't feel obliged to kneel down and kiss her ring. This isn't England (yet), they're not royalty, and we are not their subjects. They work for us, not the other way around.

amazing isn't it that after expressing so much disdain for this country and in particular those that are typical, white and cling to guns and religoen...that they ever get booed...hard to fathom:uhuh: I suppose if you look down you nose at others long enough you ought not be surprised when they give you the finger...and even worse to then feign surprise and dismay

'Calling a woman a "half beast" and other demeaning things says a lot about your values. "

The only value on display here is my unwillingness to do fake-nice. Maddow has, on countless occasions, referred to people like me as tea bagging racists. So again, I make no apologies for treating her in similar fashion. as usual, it's OK for the lib to descend to the gutter but don't you dare point it out, mock or criticize or you are the bad guy....neat trick:uhuh:

Funny. I only hear cries for civility when conservatives act boorish, never when feral liberals run wild.again...neat trick...though, I guess if you have no standards you can't be held accountable for double standards :uhuh:

Last night, my golden retriever and I did our weekly visit to a hospice patient who wanted to see a friendly dog again. I'll put my tradiitonal Irish-Catholic values up against the liberal platform any day of the week, and twice on Sunday. But that doesn't mean I'm going to let anyone piss down my back and then tell me it's raining.

"rather than doing what is best for the country"

Gimme a break. If someone feels that our debt is a legitimate threat to our survival, why would they ever agree to letting Obama flush another trillion dollars down the toilet on failed stimulus programs? Amazing. During the last few years of the Bush administration, the Democrats didn't exactly roll over and let him do whatever he wanted. Liberals like to say that dissent "is the highest form of patriotism", but clearly they only feel that way when THEY are obstructing conservatives. When conservatives dissent, it's the lowest form of racism.

one side is bent on Nanny State Socialism...the other is attempting to maintain or return to our Constitutional Republic and founding principles at least to some degree, they happen to be polar opposites ..hard to figure out why they can't come to an agreement :)

Jim for president 2012
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Thanks!

However, I divert all of my support to Newt, the most brilliant, skilled politician the planet has seen, since Churchill.

"as usual, it's OK for the lib to descend to the gutter but don't you dare point it out, mock or criticize or you are the bad guy....neat trick"-
No, I think anyone who refers to woman as "half beast" has a problem w/woman in general and is a scum bag whether they are lib or cons.

So show me where any "lib" here has called woman such demeaning names as Jim.

"So show me where any "lib" here has called woman such demeaning names as Jim.

Paul - not a good battle to fight. "on here" may require some digging but as far as conservative women in the media, this is just from this week. BTW - Fishbone is my favorite band, but to play a song titlled Lyin A$$ Beyotch when Bachmann comes on stage is disgusting. AS Jim points out the libs will laugh it off but if it was on the other foot it would be a huge deal. Where are the feminists, uproar?

Fallon, band welcome Bachmann with pointed song
6:45 a.m. CST, November 23, 2011
NEW YORK— A Democratic congresswoman says NBC should apologize for its "insulting and inappropriate" treatment of Republican presidential contender Michele Bachmann when she appeared on Jimmy Fallon's late-night talk show.

As Bachmann was introduced on the show early Tuesday, house band The Roots played a snippet of a 1985 Fishbone song called "Lyin' Ass B----."


"No female politician -- and no woman -- should be subjected to sexist and offensive innuendo like she was last night," Lowey said.

Thats pretty friggin Lame too....

"as usual, it's OK for the lib to descend to the gutter but don't you dare point it out, mock or criticize or you are the bad guy....neat trick"-
No, I think anyone who refers to woman as "half beast" has a problem w/woman in general and is a scum bag whether they are lib or cons.

So show me where any "lib" here has called woman such demeaning names as Jim.

The liberals were SO respectful of Sarah Palin in 2008. Barack Obama on Sarah Palin..."you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig". Look at the photos that MSNBC uses of Bachman or Palin, please.

The "libs here" support the slaughter of 4,000 unborn babies a day. Let's assume half of those are women. Who cares more for them?

Paul, I can go on all day. How much time do you have?

Thats pretty friggin Lame too....

we've become a country of "lame"

I dont want to blame everything on "O" but I think his attitude has made it worse.

One thing I can say for Romney is he is a mature and moral person and believe he would bring dignity back to the office.

we've become a country of "lame"

I dont want to blame everything on "O" but I think his attitude has made it worse.

One thing I can say for Romney is he is a mature and moral person and believe he would bring dignity back to the office.

Its Sad...really is

"O" is just a part of the problem....every person that exploits the divide between people, whether it is for Political, Monetary, Religous, or Ratings Gains is a part of the problem.

We can only hope that SOMEONE can bring dignity back...these past 3 presidents sure as hell didn't do a lot for that cause. :wall:

we've become a country of "lame"

One thing I can say for Romney is he is a mature and moral person and believe he would bring dignity back to the office.

Like taking a quote WAY out of context in an ad and then basically saying, so what... he may be mature and dignified, but someone on his staff isn't at least..

I also thought, besides the intro, Bachman did pretty well on Fallon....

RIJ - I agree 100% w/you. Totally wrong.

My point is there are people on both sides who think nothing of insulting the other side. For the most part, it doesn't happen here. Jim seems to think it is appropriate.

Congress will continue to have 9% approval ratings until things change.

Its Sad...really is

"O" is just a part of the problem....every person that exploits the divide between people, whether it is for Political, Monetary, Religous, or Ratings Gains is a part of the problem.

We can only hope that SOMEONE can bring dignity back...these past 3 presidents sure as hell didn't do a lot for that cause. :wall:

What did Bush 43 do that was undignified? From wher I sat, I thought he was too dignified, because he always let liberals insult him, and he never fought back.

RIJ - I agree 100% w/you. Totally wrong.

My point is there are people on both sides who think nothing of insulting the other side. For the most part, it doesn't happen here. Jim seems to think it is appropriate.

Congress will continue to have 9% approval ratings until things change.

Paul, you called me a "scum bag", and 5 minutes later, you're saying that I'm the only one who thinks it's OK to insult people.

Paul, please get off your high horse. Maddow's actions provoked me into insulting her, and my actions provoked you into insulting me. From where I sit, you and I are both equally guilty of insulting those with whom we disagree, so I fail to see from where you assume the moral high ground on this issue.

Good luck responding to that.

Unbelievable.

What did Bush 43 do that was undignified? From wher I sat, I thought he was too dignified, because he always let liberals insult him, and he never fought back.

Maybe he should have fought back...maybe take charge....be Presidential

This just Screams "Presidential Dignity" when I see it :rolleyes:

Bush Giving the Finger - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVynnbx1Xsc)

Dignity upon Dignity....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ux3DKxxFoM

Here's some dignity for ol Barry

Russian newsreader Tatyana Limanova makes insulting gesture at Obama - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/8909336/Russian-newsreader-Tatyana-Limanova-makes-insulting-gesture-at-Obama.html)
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Maybe he should have fought back...maybe take charge....be Presidential

This just Screams "Presidential Dignity" when I see it :rolleyes:

Bush Giving the Finger - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVynnbx1Xsc)

Dignity upon Dignity....

President Bush -- Fool me Once - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ux3DKxxFoM)

The first video is a bit unfair since Bush wasn't president at the time. The second video is hilarious. I guess being a bumblemouth is not dignified, but he wasn't directing undignified verbiage toward others--just showing the lack of oratorical grace that he was noted for.

Yep, and all I said was the past 3 presidents didn't have it....maybe the next one???....who knows.

Maybe he should have embraced the Teleprompter :hihi:

The "libs here" support the slaughter of 4,000 unborn babies a day. Let's assume half of those are women. Who cares more for them?
:smash: As always, a pathetic attempt to spin a topic that doesn't have even a remote relationship to abortion into "killing unborn babies."

You're really committed to mentioning that "Liberal = Baby Killer" any time a non-Conservative politician is mentioned. We get the point.

President Bush -- Fool me Once - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ux3DKxxFoM)

man, that is hilarious

You're really committed to mentioning that "Liberal = Baby Killer" any time a non-Conservative politician is mentioned. We get the point.

Didn't his hero Newt lie about 800 babies being left in dumpsters in DC?

Birds of a feather...

-spence

I dont want to blame everything on "O" but I think his attitude has made it worse.
While divisive politics certainly have a long history, it would seem as though the 1990's saw the current track we're on today really take hold.

Sure, the Dem's have had their moments, but the Republican efforts to maintain authority and destroy Clinton and Obama really has no equal, even considering left wing desires to impeach Bush for misleading the country into the Iraq war.

Obama might appear detached, but I don't think his attitude is a problem. From everything I've read he's completely engaged and works his ass off.

One thing I can say for Romney is he is a mature and moral person and believe he would bring dignity back to the office.
Agree, but I'm sure you could say that of a number of people who get to Washington and are soon corrupted even though they believe they're doing the right thing...it's not easy to lead when you're in a bubble.

-spence

The first video is a bit unfair since Bush wasn't president at the time. The second video is hilarious. I guess being a bumblemouth is not dignified, but he wasn't directing undignified verbiage toward others--just showing the lack of oratorical grace that he was noted for.
I'd consider this a similar moment to the Michelle Obama remark...first time proud of country...just a different kind of clumsy. With context it makes sense, but wasn't delivered well at the time.

-spence

Paul, you called me a "scum bag", and 5 minutes later, you're saying that I'm the only one who thinks it's OK to insult people.

Paul, please get off your high horse. Maddow's actions provoked me into insulting her, and my actions provoked you into insulting me. From where I sit, you and I are both equally guilty of insulting those with whom we disagree, so I fail to see from where you assume the moral high ground on this issue.

Good luck responding to that.

Unbelievable.

No, I have no problem insulting you at all. Your constantly insulting ALL people who don't agree w/you. That is the difference. I would have thought you got that.

No, I have no problem insulting you at all. Your constantly insulting ALL people who don't agree w/you. That is the difference. I would have thought you got that.

like I said...neat trick:uhuh:

:smash: As always, a pathetic attempt to spin a topic that doesn't have even a remote relationship to abortion into "killing unborn babies."

You're really committed to mentioning that "Liberal = Baby Killer" any time a non-Conservative politician is mentioned. We get the point.

Johnny, if a liberal accuses me of not caring about women, then I think it's pretty valid to point out that I am opposed to the slaughter of 2000 unborn girls a day, and to point out that most liberals support that.

If the shoe fits Johnny, if the shoe fits...

No, I have no problem insulting you at all. Your constantly insulting ALL people who don't agree w/you. That is the difference. I would have thought you got that.

Wrong. First of all, I don't insult all people who disagree with me. In the case of Maddow, it's irrefutable fact that she likes to call people like me "tea bagging racists", which is obviously meant to be derogatory.

And second of all, you said that insulting was inappropriate. I wonder when you got appointed the God of deciding who it's appropriate to insult, and who it's not appropriate to insult. But liberals often anoint themselves with such authority, in order to defend an obvious hypocrisy.

Obama might appear detached, but I don't think his attitude is a problem. From everything I've read he's completely engaged and works his ass off.

-spence

Doesn't matter how hard he works if he does a crappy job. There are no "A's for effort" in his position. And his childish remarks and smarmy attitude make people dislike him. That doesn't make him detached, but it makes him look like an ass.

Doesn't matter how hard he works if he does a crappy job. There are no "A's for effort" in his position. And his childish remarks and smarmy attitude make people dislike him. That doesn't make him detached, but it makes him look like an ass.
The jury doesn't decide on the job he's done for another year. I think Obama can present a pretty effective presidency if he can get his PR together.

As for childish and smarmy remarks, I'm not sure there's much here to go on...unless you hated him to begin with.

-spence

While divisive politics certainly have a long history, it would seem as though the 1990's saw the current track we're on today really take hold.

Sure, the Dem's have had their moments, but the Republican efforts to maintain authority and destroy Clinton and Obama really has no equal, even considering left wing desires to impeach Bush for misleading the country into the Iraq war.

Obama might appear detached, but I don't think his attitude is a problem. From everything I've read he's completely engaged and works his ass off.


Agree, but I'm sure you could say that of a number of people who get to Washington and are soon corrupted even though they believe they're doing the right thing...it's not easy to lead when you're in a bubble.

-spence

"the Republican efforts to maintain authority and destroy Clinton and Obama really has no equal"

Sorry, remember Sarah Palin? Libs weren't out to destroy her? MSNBC is STILL obsessed with her, and she isn't even running for anything.

"From everything I've read he's completely engaged and works his ass off."

Spence, let me get this right. If you "read" that Bush was awesome, obviously you would dispute it. But when you read that Obama works his butt off, that's good enough for you, it must be true?

Just trying to clarify.

The jury doesn't decide on the job he's done for another year. I think Obama can present a pretty effective presidency if he can get his PR together.

As for childish and smarmy remarks, I'm not sure there's much here to go on...unless you hated him to begin with.

-spence

"As for childish and smarmy remarks, I'm not sure there's much here to go on."

on Sarah Palin..."you can put lipstick onm a pig, it's still a pig".

On blue collar Americans: they cling to their guns and religion because they are bitter and racist.

On the Cambridge police: I wasn't there, and I have no idea what happened, but it's fair to say the police acted stupidly.

On those who criticized him for his remarks about the Cambridge police: I'm sorry if people took my remarks as derogatory. (Is there another way to interpret the word "stupid"?)

On his bowling skills: I look like one of those special olympians out there (ha ha ha!!!! Boy, there's nothing funnier than making fun of handicapped people!)

on republicans: they need to get in the back of the bus.

This is just off the top of my head. Spence, care to comment on your assertion??

"the Republican efforts to maintain authority and destroy Clinton and Obama really has no equal"

Sorry, remember Sarah Palin? Libs weren't out to destroy her? MSNBC is STILL obsessed with her, and she isn't even running for anything.
She's still quite influential in the GOP though...as odd as it may seem.

As for efforts to discredit her, these were a response to an open invitation. Her VP nod was a trick play and she was obviously not ready for the job, if she ever would be...although she's making a hell of a lot of money just hanging out there :hihi:


"From everything I've read he's completely engaged and works his ass off."

Spence, let me get this right. If you "read" that Bush was awesome, obviously you would dispute it. But when you read that Obama works his butt off, that's good enough for you, it must be true?

Just trying to clarify.

I think Bush was a disengaged President. He thought of himself as the "decider" and wanted to make a mark but really didn't want to own the decision making process. In all I think he's a decent guy who just gave up too much authority to those around him. The proof here is in the pudding.

Obama by contrast appears to put a lot more mental energy into the job. I don't think he has a bad attitude or hates America. If anything he's insulated himself too much from inside the beltway jabber and hasn't worked to control the debate. This has hindered his effectiveness.

There are limitations to both styles.

-spence

The jury doesn't decide on the job he's done for another year. I think Obama can present a pretty effective presidency if he can get his PR together.

As for childish and smarmy remarks, I'm not sure there's much here to go on...unless you hated him to begin with.

-spence

You're not serious, are you? He'd need the miracle of all miracles to present an effective presidency. As for me hating him, nope. You're not gonna bait me with that old crap. I may not have voted for him, but I hoped he would succeed. You can find that in a post I made way back when he was elected. Even you can find plenty of instances where he's been smarmy and childish. Plenty to go on there.

Spence is hilarious :biglaugh:

I'd consider this a similar moment to the Michelle Obama remark...first time proud of country...just a different kind of clumsy. With context it makes sense, but wasn't delivered well at the time.

-spence

Spence, PLEASE enlighten me...in what context did Michelle mean that statement?

She's still quite influential in the GOP though...as odd as it may seem.

As for efforts to discredit her, these were a response to an open invitation. Her VP nod was a trick play and she was obviously not ready for the job, if she ever would be...although she's making a hell of a lot of money just hanging out there :hihi:




I think Bush was a disengaged President. He thought of himself as the "decider" and wanted to make a mark but really didn't want to own the decision making process. In all I think he's a decent guy who just gave up too much authority to those around him. The proof here is in the pudding.

Obama by contrast appears to put a lot more mental energy into the job. I don't think he has a bad attitude or hates America. If anything he's insulated himself too much from inside the beltway jabber and hasn't worked to control the debate. This has hindered his effectiveness.

There are limitations to both styles.

-spence

"Her VP nod was a trick play "

Read some actual facts. At the time of her nomination, she had the highest approval ratings of any governor in the country. Her nomination catapulted McCain ahead of Obama in every poll, and they stayed ahead till the economy collapsed.

Besides voting present what qualifications did Obama have to be voted president compared tgo Sarah Palin being VICE president?
Obama could have shown his love for this country and it's laws by telling his Aunt and Uncle to please leave and reenter legally. Wouldn't it be nice to have an American citzen working the package store job instead, I'll bet a vet would show some appreciation to have aunt tootiefruities apartment rather than her opinion that we owe her citizenship now (she is on video check youtube.
Did they ever get anyone to replace Michele Obama and her $350k a year job and if so are they getting the same pay.
Besides the automakers (union) bailout and the stimulous whcih went to mostly state and federal employees and contractors who has he helped?
How much has she cost us compared to previous first ladies?
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Spence, PLEASE enlighten me...in what context did Michelle mean that statement?

easy..............watch the video...her dreams were coming true

'Barack stood up that day,' talking about a visit to Chicago neighborhoods, 'and spoke words that have stayed with me ever since. He talked about 'The world as it is' and 'The world as it should be…' And, 'All of us driven by a simple belief that the world as it is just won't do – that we have an obligation to, fight for the world as it should be." MICHELLE OBAMA DNC CONVENTION


"As an organizer I start from where the world is, as it is, not as I would like it to be. That we accept the world as it is does not in any sense weaken our desire to change it into what we believe it should be - it is necessary to begin where the world is if we are going to change it to what we think it should be. That means working in the system.

There's another reason for working inside the system. Dostoevsky said that taking a new step is what people fear most. Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a passive, affirmative, non-challenging attitude toward change among the mass of our people. They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and chance the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution. To bring on this reformation requires that the organizer work inside the system, among not only the middle class but the 40 per cent of American families - more than seventy million people - whose income range from $5,000 to $10,000 a year (in 1971). They cannot be dismissed by labeling them blue collar or hard hat. They will not continue to be relatively passive and slightly challenging. If we fail to communicate with them, if we don't encourage them to form alliances with us, they will move to the right. Maybe they will anyway, but let's not let it happen by default."

We will start with the system because there is no other place to start from except political lunacy. It is most important for those of us who want revolutionary change to understand that revolution must be proceeded by reformation. To assume that a political revolution can survive without the supporting base of a popular reformation is to ask for the impossible in politics.

Men don't like to step abruptly out of the security of familiar experience; they need a bridge to cross from their own experience to a new way. A revolutionary organizer must shake up the prevailing patterns of their lives--agitate, create disenchantment and discontent with the current values, to produce, if not a passion for change, at least a passive, affirmative, no-challenging climate.

A reformation means that masses of our people have reached the point of disillusionment with past ways and values. They don't know what will work but they do know that the prevailing system is self-defeating, frustrating, and hopeless. They won't but won't strongly oppose those who do. The time is then ripe for revolution.

Change means movement. Movement means friction. Only in the frictionless vacuum of a nonexistent abstract world can movement or change occur without that abrasive friction of conflict." SAUL ALINSKY


they were the "ONES" they'd been waiting for :uhuh: no doubt it was the first time in her adult life she was really proud of America

Spence, PLEASE enlighten me...in what context did Michelle mean that statement?
Quite simply, the context was about the upwelling of people, especially younger people, getting excited and engaged with their government.

The line was a bit sensationalistic and Her speechwriters/handlers should have realized it left her too open for criticism. But given the situation it's also a quite reasonable thing to believe, the energy around Obama's candidacy was like something I know I've never seen in American politics.

The reversal, that this is the first time she's ever been proud of her country as an adult is really quite a silly thing to believe when you put a little thought into it, especially considering how the Obama's have remarked that their story would be impossible anywhere but the USA. Yes it fits ScottW's tin-foil hat Alynsky obsessed fantasy of commies trying to undermine America, but outside of that, it's just a clumsy remark that was blown out of proportion by a well coordinated effort to tear Obama down.

-spence

Quite simply, the context was about the upwelling of people, especially younger people, getting excited and engaged with their government.

The line was a bit sensationalistic and Her speechwriters/handlers should have realized it left her too open for criticism. But given the situation it's also a quite reasonable thing to believe, the energy around Obama's candidacy was like something I know I've never seen in American politics.

The reversal, that this is the first time she's ever been proud of her country as an adult is really quite a silly thing to believe when you put a little thought into it, especially considering how the Obama's have remarked that their story would be impossible anywhere but the USA. Yes it fits ScottW's tin-foil hat Alynsky obsessed fantasy of commies trying to undermine America, but outside of that, it's just a clumsy remark that was blown out of proportion by a well coordinated effort to tear Obama down.

-spence

no...it acutually makes sense in context with her many other comments...


The Other Obama by Lauren Collins

Obama begins with a broad assessment of life in America in 2008, and life is not good: we’re a divided country, we’re a country that is “just downright mean,” we are “guided by fear,” we’re a nation of cynics, sloths, and complacents. “We have become a nation of struggling folks who are barely making it every day,” she said, as heads bobbed in the pews. “Folks are just jammed up, and it’s gotten worse over my lifetime. And, doggone it, I’m young. Forty-four!”

From these bleak generalities, Obama moves into specific complaints. Used to be, she will say, that you could count on a decent education in the neighborhood. But now there are all these charter schools and magnet schools that you have to “finagle” to get into. (Obama herself attended a magnet school, but never mind.) Health care is out of reach (“Let me tell you, don’t get sick in America”), pensions are disappearing, college is too expensive, and even if you can figure out a way to go to college you won’t be able to recoup the cost of the degree in many of the professions for which you needed it in the first place. “You’re looking at a young couple that’s just a few years out of debt,” Obama said. “See, because, we went to those good schools, and we didn’t have trust funds. I’m still waiting for Barack’s trust fund. Especially after I heard that #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney was s’posed to be a relative or something. Give us something here!”

Read more Michelle Obama’s pride and the politics of candor : The New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/03/10/080310fa_fact_collins#ixzz1edibR2iA)

"Her VP nod was a trick play "

Read some actual facts. At the time of her nomination, she had the highest approval ratings of any governor in the country. Her nomination catapulted McCain ahead of Obama in every poll, and they stayed ahead till the economy collapsed.
Do you think that just by repeating the word "facts" in all your posts it gives them more credibility?

Palin did have high marks as Governor, although I'm not sure I'd put the job on the same level as leading New York, Texas or even Iowa for that matter. We are talking about a state that has a tiny population and vast natural resources that by law benefit the voters. Big topics on the legislative agenda are the wolf population and how to allocate the 442 million Federal tax dollars they decided not to spend on the bridge to nowhere. Hell, that's more than a half million dollars per resident!

When she hit the spotlight it was clear that she was completely unprepared for the job. Yes, she's hot and delivers a solid snarky one liner, but beyond that there's not a lot of substance.

The media attention she attracted did help McCain in the polls, and the economy did have a big impact on their demise. But the simple fact is that the voters saw her as a novelty in the end. She was a trick play that gave McCain a bump, but when the reality of the next year became clear, voters had more confidence in Obama and Biden.

McCain blew it. Had he picked Joe Lieberman as is rumored to be his personal choice...they would have cleaned up.

-spence

Used to be, she will say, that you could count on a decent education in the neighborhood. But now there are all these charter schools and magnet schools that you have to “finagle” to get into. (Obama herself attended a magnet school, but never mind.) Health care is out of reach (“Let me tell you, don’t get sick in America”), pensions are disappearing, college is too expensive, and even if you can figure out a way to go to college you won’t be able to recoup the cost of the degree in many of the professions for which you needed it in the first place. “You’re looking at a young couple that’s just a few years out of debt,” Obama said. “See, because, we went to those good schools, and we didn’t have trust funds. I’m still waiting for Barack’s trust fund. Especially after I heard that #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney was s’posed to be a relative or something. Give us something here!”
Sounds like she understands the frustrations of Middle America pretty damn well.

You should start posting this on the NASCAR blogs :hihi:

-spence

Sounds like she understands the frustrations of Middle America pretty damn well.

You should start posting this on the NASCAR blogs :hihi:

-spence

no...sounds like she understands the "frustrations" of the OCCUPY idiots pretty damn well...which makes perfect sense...

sounds like a lot of familiar whining..."give me a damn education, give me some damn healthcare and give me some damn trust fund money"....nice:uhuh:

based on her reception at NASCAR, I'd say "middle America" has got her figured out :uhuh:

You're not serious, are you? He'd need the miracle of all miracles to present an effective presidency.
Remember, his effectiveness will be judged relative to the challenges he's faced and the anticipated effectiveness of his challenger.

A tanking economy, two wars, 10 natural disasters etc...hell, this would have been tough first term for anyone.

The fact that we didn't slip into a depression, that we're exiting Iraq, that we've killed a heck of a lot of terrorists including OBL, expanded health care coverage, a lot of positive financial and military reforms, restrictions on lobbyists, incentives for small businesses etc...

There's a lot to sell the independent voter on. Obama's bigger worry should be that the left (and younger voters) feel he has led from the middle and might not mobilize like they did in 2008. But, it's looking like the GOP might have a similar problem getting the religious right to the polls as well.

In the end I think it's going to be a very tight race. Obama is a good debater and the debates will probably decide the election.

-spence

no...sounds like she understands the "frustrations" of the OCCUPY idiots pretty damn well...which makes perfect sense...
Polls seem to show the majority of Americans agree with the Occupy movement on core issues, distribution of wealth, corporate influences on government etc...

based on her reception at NASCAR, I'd say "middle America" has got her figured out :uhuh:
Perhaps they're just watching too much FOX News and are misinformed?

Fox News viewers less informed about current events than those who don’t watch news at all, study finds

Read more: Fox News viewers less informed about current events than those who don?t watch news at all, study finds#^& - NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/fox-news-viewers-informed-current-events-don-t-watch-news-study-finds-article-1.981257#ixzz1epObBg2O)

-spence

Polls seem to show the majority of Americans agree with the Occupy movement on core issues, distribution of wealth, corporate influences on government etc...

SPENCISM "majority of Americans"......

the best you can do in a poll is a CBS stretch at 43%...most are in the 30% range which we know that for you means "Most Americans"

you are probably citing another obscure poll from the "Public Religeon Research Institute" claiming 67% but you forgot to either read or mention the caveat in the report or consider the dubious source

Perhaps they're just watching too much FOX News and are misinformed?



-spence


and speaking of obscure polls

"Fairleigh #^&#^&#^&#^&inson University on Monday found that people who get their news from Fox News know significantly less about news both in the U.S. and the world than people who watch no news at all.

In a survey of 612 New Jersey natives......."

a Fairleigh #^&#^&#^&#^&inson poll of 612 New Jerseyites is confirmation that Fox news viewers are misinformed/less informed?

I guess you really have to dig deep these days to continue the farce:uhuh:



Why blacks aren’t embracing Occupy Wall Street - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-blacks-arent-embracing-occupy-wall-street/2011/11/16/gIQAwc3FwN_story.html)
:huh:

No, I said agree on the core issues...not do you support the "movement" which would include methods as well as a broader spectrum issues.

The CBS poll you've cited recorded 66% agree wealth should be distributed more evenly, a core issue for OWS.

The ABC poll done just after goes further, 61% not only saying wealth should be distributed more evenly, but that the federal government should take action.

Washington Post-ABC News Poll (washingtonpost.com) (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postabcpoll_110311.html)

The majority also seem to want corporations to have less influence in Washington, for instance 62% in this Gallup poll from earlier this year.

In U.S., Majority Still Wants Less Corporate Influence (http://www.gallup.com/poll/145871/majority-wants-less-corporate-influence.aspx)

It's time to really ask who's interests is Congress looking after. Yes, that was a rhetorical question...

-spence

But given the situation it's also a quite reasonable thing to believe, the energy around Obama's candidacy was like something I know I've never seen in American politics.

The reversal, that this is the first time she's ever been proud of her country as an adult is really quite a silly thing to believe when you put a little thought into it, especially considering how the Obama's have remarked that their story would be impossible anywhere but the USA. Yes it fits ScottW's tin-foil hat Alynsky obsessed fantasy of commies trying to undermine America, but outside of that, it's just a clumsy remark that was blown out of proportion by a well coordinated effort to tear Obama down.

-spence

"But given the situation it's also a quite reasonable thing to believe, the energy around Obama's candidacy was like something I know I've never seen in American politics."

Spence, stop the spin, OK? If Michells said "gee, I've never seen this kind of enthusiasm", than your justification would have merit. That's not remotely what she said. She said she had never before been proud of this country.

"The reversal, that this is the first time she's ever been proud of her country as an adult is really quite a silly thing to believe when you put a little thought into it"

OK, so according to you, it's silly and thoughtless for me to believe that she meant what she said?

Spence, when Bush put his foot in his mouth, did you bend over backwards to excuse it? Or did you hold him accountable for it?

Polls seem to show the majority of Americans agree with the Occupy movement on core issues, distribution of wealth, corporate influences on government etc...


Perhaps they're just watching too much FOX News and are misinformed?



-spence

"Polls seem to show the majority of Americans agree with the Occupy movement on core issues"

What polls are you referring to , polls done by The Daily Worker or Pravda?

Most Americans are opposed to handouts, defacating in public, anarchy, and putting cops in the hospital. Most Americans want to be left alone, not to be harassed on their way to/from work.

Remember, his effectiveness will be judged relative to the challenges he's faced and the anticipated effectiveness of his challenger.

A tanking economy, two wars, 10 natural disasters etc...hell, this would have been tough first term for anyone.

The fact that we didn't slip into a depression, that we're exiting Iraq, that we've killed a heck of a lot of terrorists including OBL, expanded health care coverage, a lot of positive financial and military reforms, restrictions on lobbyists, incentives for small businesses etc...

There's a lot to sell the independent voter on. Obama's bigger worry should be that the left (and younger voters) feel he has led from the middle and might not mobilize like they did in 2008. But, it's looking like the GOP might have a similar problem getting the religious right to the polls as well.

In the end I think it's going to be a very tight race. Obama is a good debater and the debates will probably decide the election.

-spence

"The fact that we didn't slip into a depression"

You're giving Obama credit for something that is literally impossoble to prove. His explosion of the debt may yet push us into that depression, but you don't care about that...

"we're exiting Iraq"

According to the strategy put in place by the previous administration...

"we've killed a heck of a lot of terrorists including OBL"

Thanks to the programs put in place by the previous administration...

"Obama is a good debater and the debates will probably decide the election."

I pray you are right,particularly if Gingrich is the nominee. Obama is a horrible debater, he's good at deflecting attention away from his actual record, and instead focusing on some mythical boogeyman, which in 2012 will be successful white people. That works against a poodle like John McCain, who was too afraid of being called a racist to attack Obama in a debate. An angry pitbull like Newt will have no such concerns, and it will show loud and clear.

No, I said agree on the core issues...not do you support the "movement" which would include methods as well as a broader spectrum issues.

The CBS poll you've cited recorded 66% agree wealth should be distributed more evenly, a core issue for OWS.

The ABC poll done just after goes further, 61% not only saying wealth should be distributed more evenly, but that the federal government should take action.

so let's follow this to it's logical conclusion...A new report (pdf) from the Tax Policy Center breaks it down. In 2011, about 46 percent of households won’t pay income taxes(Ezra Klein's blog WaPo for a little liberal credability). So I'll give you the 46%(and then you can dream that another 20% or so of Americans are currently socalists) who have no federal tax liability might agree to have the federal government redistribute wealth through higher taxes on the wealthy and corporations, they can only gain, right?.......and how exactly does the distributing take place? More government services, government jobs, just start making out checks to all of those who currently have no federal liability till all of the distributing is done and things are even.....?? I'm pretty sure that many of those 46% are already getting a nice check...
.
the actual question was

18. Do you think the federal government should or should not pursue policies that try to reduce the gap between wealthy and less well-off Americans? Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?

you seem to assume that means taxing the wealthy and redistribution, which makes sense coming from you, some of us might see that as pursuing policies that will allow the economy to flourish again which would be the fastest way to close that gap


The majority also seem to want corporations to have less influence in Washington, for instance 62% in this Gallup poll from earlier this year.

In U.S., Majority Still Wants Less Corporate Influence (http://www.gallup.com/poll/145871/majority-wants-less-corporate-influence.aspx)

It's time to really ask who's interests is Congress looking after. Yes, that was a rhetorical question...if Congress were less busy doing things that it was never charged to do.... it might be better able to focus on the "interrests" that it is supposed to focus on.....

-spence

you are on a roll today MSNBC, NBC, CBS, WashPOST

I don't think it's a shock that people want to see less influence in Washington by Corporations...particularly when you see the debacles by this administration with tax payers money doled out to questionable corporations who just happen to be well connected...my guess is that many corporations would like to have much less to do with Washington thus having less "influence" but they have to, in many cases, pay to play, and cooperate in the protection schemes and rackets set up by Washington elites or else become a victim of Washington's whims....

how is Washington, the "Federal Government taking action" by increasing Federal taxes on the wealthy and corporations, going to result in a "more even distribution of wealth"? Particularly for those that currently have no federal liability...the fact is that this has nothing to do with spreading the "wealth" around to the bottom but everything to do with further funding a behemoth government, the "bottom" might have a few scraps thrown their way but the redistributing is from the wealthy and corporations to the Federal government to satisfy and further fund the enormous appetite of the Federal bureaucracy....nothing more...

a "core issue" without a lot of thought behind it :uhuh:

OK, so according to you, it's silly and thoughtless for me to believe that she meant what she said?
Yes.

Spence, when Bush put his foot in his mouth, did you bend over backwards to excuse it? Or did you hold him accountable for it?
I have plenty of criticism for Bush, but I don't believe I've ever questioned his love of country or even his personal integrity.

-spence

What polls are you referring to , polls done by The Daily Worker or Pravda?
ABC, CBS, NYTimes, Washington Post...all those radical liberal media outlets.

Most Americans are opposed to handouts, defacating in public, anarchy, and putting cops in the hospital. Most Americans want to be left alone, not to be harassed on their way to/from work.
You're confusing the actions of a few with the beliefs of the many.

-spence

ABC, CBS, NYTimes, Washington Post...all those radical liberal media outlets.

they're pretty liberal :uhuh:

You're confusing the actions of a few with the beliefs of the many.

funny how things change :uhuh:

-spence

more than a few Spence :uhuh:

You're giving Obama credit for something that is literally impossoble to prove. His explosion of the debt may yet push us into that depression, but you don't care about that...
Well, the CBO certainly seemed to think the stimulus has a positive impact. If Bush gets to take credit for keeping Americans safe post 9/11 you'd think Obama would get credit for keeping us out of a depression (and no attacks also :hihi)

According to the strategy put in place by the previous administration...

Thanks to the programs put in place by the previous administration...
If Obama was the idiot you claim he had plenty of chances to screw up the timeline for an Iraq withdrawal. As for terrorism, Obama certainly wasn't following the Bush playbook.

An angry pitbull like Newt will have no such concerns, and it will show loud and clear.
Yep, at the voting booth. People don't want to elect an angry pit bull president.

-spence

l. As for terrorism, Obama certainly wasn't following the Bush playbook.

-spence
ThinkProgress Sept. 2011

Ex-CIA Lawyer: Obama Has Changed ‘Virtually Nothing’ From Bush’s Counter-Terror Policies | The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) released a report yesterday on the erosion of civil liberties in the post-9/11 era, which concluded that the Obama administration has continued many of the controversial policies of the Bush administration. Covering the ACLU report, the progressive radio show Democracy Now! interviewed former top Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) lawyer John Rizzo. The Obama administration had changed “virtually nothing with respect to existing CIA programs and operations,” Rizzo said. “Authorities were continued that were originally granted by President Bush beginning shortly after 9/11. Those were all picked up, reviewed and endorsed by the Obama administration.”

Progressive News Daily
August 26, 2011
Obama’s Illegal Assaults
How once-controversial ‘war on terror’ tactics became the new normal

BY Glenn Greenwald

Barack Obama has continued virtually all of George W. Bush and #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney’s once-controversial terrorism and civil liberties policies, a fact now recognized across the political spectrum. Even the right wing acknowledges these policies have continued under the Obama presidency, which is interesting, because for decades Republicans have made political hay by accusing Democrats of being weak on national security (or “soft on terrorism” in this age of terror).

This premise that the Obama administration has reversed the terror policies is wrong. The new administration has copied most of the Bush program, has expanded some of it and has narrowed only a bit. All of the Obama changes have been at the level of packaging, argumentation, symbol and rhetoric. -Jack Goldsmith

.

The CBS poll you've cited recorded 66% agree wealth should be distributed more evenly, a core issue for OWS.

The ABC poll done just after goes further, 61% not only saying wealth should be distributed more evenly, but that the federal government should take action.

It's time to really ask who's interests is Congress looking after. Yes, that was a rhetorical question...

-spence

so "it's time to really ask who's interests Congress is looking after".... by giving them more money to "redistribute"?

that makes sense, like handing the guy that is robbing you a gun and inviting him back next week..isn't it?

Well, the CBO certainly seemed to think the stimulus has a positive impact. If Bush gets to take credit for keeping Americans safe post 9/11 you'd think Obama would get credit for keeping us out of a depression (and no attacks also :hihi)


If Obama was the idiot you claim he had plenty of chances to screw up the timeline for an Iraq withdrawal. As for terrorism, Obama certainly wasn't following the Bush playbook.


Yep, at the voting booth. People don't want to elect an angry pit bull president.

-spence

" If Bush gets to take credit for keeping Americans safe post 9/11 you'd think Obama would get credit for keeping us out of a depression "

Spence, what color is the sky in the world you live in? It is irrefutable fact that Al Queda did not successfully attack us after 09/11, as long as Bush was in power. You assertion that Obama similarly "saved" the economy is literally impossible to prove.

" and no attacks also"

Again, I have to question your grip of reality. ever hear of Ft Hood? And the bomber on the Detroit plane only failed because he was incompetent.

"As for terrorism, Obama certainly wasn't following the Bush playbook."

No? Really? When did Guantanimo Bay get shut down? when did the Patriot Act get repealed? When did Obama stop using predator drones to kill terrorists? I give Obama a fair amount of credit on the terrorism front, and all of his successes, from where I sit, are because he largely left the Bush administration's policies work as intended. The one change Obama made was to to try and make other nations like us more. What has that gotten us? ZIP.

"People don't want to elect an angry pit bull president."

You said the debates would decide. You said that, not me.

Spence, what color is the sky in the world you live in? It is irrefutable fact that Al Queda did not successfully attack us after 09/11, as long as Bush was in power. You assertion that Obama similarly "saved" the economy is literally impossible to prove.
How do you know how many times they may have tried? How do you know we weren't headed to a depression?

The reality is, who's in charge often gets credit or blame. But like people understand Bush wasn't responsible for 9/11 the people alo know Obama inherited a mess of an economy. While this is going to drag on his campaign, Republican efforts to label it the "Obama Recession" will likely fail. Obama though has to be able to articulate the value of his policies better than he has.

Again, I have to question your grip of reality. ever hear of Ft Hood? And the bomber on the Detroit plane only failed because he was incompetent.
Clearly the intent of my comment was about Americans being harmed domestically due to a successful terror attack, otherwise I would have noted Richard Ried...

The Ft Hood shooting while tragic wasn't classified as an act of terrorism. The investigation seems to have shown that Hassan acted alone and had no terrorist links to an outside group. More likely his mental health issues and a reluctance to deploy sent him over the edge.

He's charged with premeditated murder, not terrorism.

No? Really? When did Guantanimo Bay get shut down? when did the Patriot Act get repealed? When did Obama stop using predator drones to kill terrorists? I give Obama a fair amount of credit on the terrorism front, and all of his successes, from where I sit, are because he largely left the Bush administration's policies work as intended. The one change Obama made was to to try and make other nations like us more. What has that gotten us? ZIP.
Obama hasn't closed GTMO because we can't find other nations to take who's left. Didn't he sign an order to have it closed his first day as president? That Obama hasn't closed GTMO yet isn't at all an endorsement of Bush policy, it's another one of Bush's messes he's been left to clean up.

As for the Patriot act, the big issue has always been oversight. As the Senate couldn't get amendments to the bill to a full vote, Obama signed it's renewal and is providing stronger enforcement through the Department of Justice. Again, a departure from Bush policy.

As for predator drones, Obama has again departed from the Bush policy to use drone strikes very selectively in sensitive areas and instead use them as a primary means to go after the enemy where they actually are...like in Pakistan and Yemen.

Obama certainly doesn't share the Bush policy for selective use of torture or remote detention facilities.

Obama certainly doesn't share the Bush tendency for unilateral action.

I'd say they've both shared a desire to promote democracy, but while Bush did it through massive military action, Obama has chosen to lean into opponents and let the local people have more influence over their future.

I'd say their approaches to foreign policy have some similarities, but mostly on inherited issues. For new events Obama has handled them perhaps in a dramatically different manner.

You said the debates would decide. You said that, not me.
I think the debates are very important to sway independent voters.

It's why Gingrich pushes for the Lincoln Douglas format so he can get into long-winded academic responses to weave philosophy with his deep knowledge of history. It's something he's very talented at...unfortunately it doesn't necessarily show leadership.

-spence

The Ft Hood shooting while tragic wasn't classified as an act of terrorism. The investigation seems to have shown that Hassan acted alone and had no terrorist links to an outside group. More likely his mental health issues and a reluctance to deploy sent him over the edge.

-spence

right

ABC NEWS

By RHONDA SCHWARTZ, PIERRE THOMAS (@PierreTABC) and MARTHA RADDATZ (@martharaddatz)
July 28, 2011

A U.S. serviceman is in custody after he allegedly admitted he was planning an attack on his fellow servicemen at the U.S. Army base at Fort Hood, Texas, the same base where 13 people were killed in a 2009 terror attack.

U.S. officials told ABC News an AWOL soldier, identified by the FBI as a Private First Class Naser Jason Abdo, was arrested Wednesday after making a purchase at Guns Galore in Killeen, Texas, the same ammunition store where Maj. Nidal Hasan purchased the weapons he allegedly used to gun down 13 people and wound 32 others on Nov. 5, 2009. According to one senior official, Abdo has also mentioned the name of high profile al Qaeda cleric Anwar al-Awlaki -- the same man investigators said inspired the previous Fort Hood attack along with other potentially deadly terror plots in the U.S. -- though no direct link between Abdo and Awlaki has been found.

When Army Pfc. Naser Jason Abdo, accused of plotting planning a deadly bombing and shooting attack on soldiers at Fort Hood, made his first appearance in court in Waco, Texas, today, he yelled the name of accused Fort Hood shooter Major Nidal Hasan.

Hasan is facing the death penalty for allegedly killing 13 people and wounding more than 30 in an assault on Fort Hood in November 2009.

Like Hasan, Abdo may have taken some of his inspiration from Anwar al-Awlaki, a radical American-born Islamic cleric who is among the leaders of the Yemen-based al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP). One senior U.S. official told ABC News that after Abdo was arrested at a Killeen, Texas hotel Wednesday, Abdo mentioned the name of al-Awlaki.

Nidal Hasan had exchanged emails with Awlaki, according to U.S. authorities. Al-Awlaki is believed to have inspired several other terror plots in the U.S. as well, including the bungled Christmas Day underwear bombing of Northwest flight 253.

ABC notes that Abdo was likely inspired by Anwar al-Awlaki, who has repeatedly called for American Muslims to fight the United States.



just a coincidence and not terror:uhuh: juuuuuuust "tragic"

Your own article mentions no direct link, what, you run out of bold?

Besides, Jim and I deal with facts. The fact is the investigation didn't turn up evidence to warrant terror charges. All you have is speculation.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The Ft Hood shooting while tragic wasn't classified as an act of terrorism. The investigation seems to have shown that Hassan acted alone and had no terrorist links to an outside group. More likely his mental health issues and a reluctance to deploy sent him over the edge.

-spence

Spence, is there any limit to the lengths you'll go to ignore facts that don't happen to serve your agenda? The Ft Hood shooter called himself a soldier of Allah, he believed that's the cause he was advancing. That makes it an act of terrorism. They all have mental health issues, if that was the litmus test, none of them could be called terrorists.

Unbelievable.

Your own article mentions no direct link, what, you run out of bold?

Besides, Jim and I deal with facts. The fact is the investigation didn't turn up evidence to warrant terror charges. All you have is speculation.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

speculation............

Abdo’s motel room was stocked with gunpowder, firearms, and ammunition. Officials told ABC News that an article from al-Qaida’s “Inspire” magazine entitled “How to Build a Bomb in the Kitchen of Your Mom” was also found in his room.

According to one official, the magazine mentioned al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, the same man investigators believed was the inspiration behind the 2009 Fort Hood massacre.


probably lots of people stock their hotel rooms with gunpowder, firearms, ammunition and al -Qaida magazines on their way to cause "tragedies":uhuh:

Spence, is there any limit to the lengths you'll go to ignore facts that don't happen to serve your agenda? The Ft Hood shooter called himself a soldier of Allah, he believed that's the cause he was advancing. That makes it an act of terrorism. They all have mental health issues, if that was the litmus test, none of them could be called terrorists.

Unbelievable.
Agree, he certainly appears to have mental health issues. Do they ALL? That's a generalization you can't support with your facts.

-spence

speculation............

Abdo’s motel room was stocked with gunpowder, firearms, and ammunition. Officials told ABC News that an article from al-Qaida’s “Inspire” magazine entitled “How to Build a Bomb in the Kitchen of Your Mom” was also found in his room.

According to one official, the magazine mentioned al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, the same man investigators believed was the inspiration behind the 2009 Fort Hood massacre.


probably lots of people stock their hotel rooms with gunpowder, firearms, ammunition and al -Qaida magazines on their way to cause "tragedies":uhuh:
I would think that anyone considering such an action would surround themselves with material to support their objective. If there was an Islamic edition of the Anarchist Cookbook I'm sure that would have been there as well.

Face it, the guy was nuts. To call it terrorism you have to show deeper motive and/or affiliation which investigators who are a lot closer to this case than you or I haven't found.

-spence

Face it, the guy was nuts. To call it terrorism you have to show deeper motive and/or affiliation which investigators who are a lot closer to this case than you or I haven't found.

-spence

yup...probably just an isolated incident...who will you be defending next week....Sandusky?...also rhetorical...I'm sure the answer is yes

ABC NEWS
Alleged Plot Against U.S. Military Base In Seattle Is Eighth in Two Years

June 24, 2011

In the latest planned assault on a U.S. military installation – at least the eighth such conspiracy in the past two years -- two Islamic converts have been arrested for allegedly plotting a Fort Hood-style attack on a Seattle center for new military recruits.

The alleged ringleader of the plot, 33-year-old Abu Khalid Abdul-Latif, a convicted felon once known as Joseph Davis, has posted a number of videos on-line attacking the U.S. military, as well as comments praising al Qaeda leader Anwar al-Awlaki, who has been linked to accused Ft. Hood shooter Nidal Hasan. According to the FBI, Abdul-Latif and accused coconspirator Walli Mujahidh, formerly Frederick Domingue, sought to determine "how they could kill the most military personnel and escape or die as martyrs" during a planned July 5 assault on the Military Entrance Processing Station.

The men discussed using "fragmentation grenades" in the facility's cafeteria as a way of maximizing casualties, say authorities, and were arrested after they allegedly purchased automatic weapons from an informant for the planned attack.

There have been at least eight attacks or alleged plots against military installations since 2009, including the November 2009 Fort Hood massacre, in which 13 people died at the Texas Army base. Palestinian-American Army Major Nidal Hasan, who had exchanged emails about jihad with Anwar al-Awlaki, is currently awaiting trial on multiple counts of murder and attempted murder. Just this week, Marine Reservist Yonathan Melaku was charged with shooting at military sites, including the Pentagon, after he was arrested in Arlington National Cemetery with a backpack full of inert ammonium nitrate. Melaku allegedly videotaped himself shouting "Allahu Akbar" while shooting at the Marine Corps Museum in Quantico and had a list of bomb-making materials in his home.

The FBI say Abdul-Latif hoped the attack on the Seattle processing center would inspire other Muslims to carry out similar assaults on enlistment centers. According to the criminal complaint filed Thursday, Mujahidh told FBI agents that he wanted to die a martyr, and said the purpose of the attack was to kill U.S. military personnel so they could not be deployed to Islamic lands.

Abdul-Latif referred admiringly to the 2009 Fort Hood massacre, according to a confidential informant who is quoted in the criminal complaint. Abdul-Latif allegedly said that "if one person could kill so many people, three attackers could kill many more" and that if he was killed in his own attack, his son would be proud he had fought the "non-believers."

You should do an understudy with Dougles Feith, you guys seem to share the same passion for conspiracy theories.
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no conspiracy, just facts and more of what we've come to expect from this administration...if Hasan or the others were non-muslim, former military and had something that could be construed to be a "right-wing militia" magazine in their apartment...they'd be "terrorists"....a "lone wolf terrorist"

"And the White House, to avoid offending the Muslim community, has opted for the general term “violent extremism” to describe the threat of Islamic radicalization.
“The administration is understandably apprehensive about identifying Islamist extremism as the primary extremist threat to the United States for fear that the broader Muslim community will take offense,” said terrorism expert Jonathan Kennedy."



In a recent CNN interview, Obama shared:

"The risk that we're especially concerned over right now is the lone wolf terrorist, somebody with a single weapon being able to carry out wide-scale massacres of the sort that we saw in Norway recently. You know, when you have one person who is deranged or driven by a hateful ideology, they can do a lot of damage, and it's a lot harder to trace those lone wolf operators."

and

Acknowledging the threat

U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, in an interview on ABC News last week, said one of the biggest challenges she had seen as DHS secretary, “is movement toward the home-grown violent extremist. The person who, for whatever reason, decides to attack his fellow citizens.
She warned citizens to be vigilant of “the lone actor that we may not know about, who may already be in the United States and so it requires us to be vigilant and the public be vigilant.”

President Obama is relatively unconcerned with violent flash mobs, terrorists sneaking across the open border, homegrown Muslim extremism in the US, Iraqi and Mexican drug rings in California, or guns in the hands of Mexican drug cartels provided by misguided sting operations.

In the 2009 unclassified government report entitled "Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment," the DHS warned that "prolonged economic downturn -- including real estate foreclosures, unemployment, and an inability to obtain credit -- could create a fertile recruiting environment for rightwing extremists." However, to date, exactly zero unemployed pro-life Iraqi war veterans living in foreclosed homes have taken to the streets armed with AK-47s.

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
UNCLASSIFIED//FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
Page 2 of 9

(U) Key Findings

(U//LES) The DHS/Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) has no specific information that domestic rightwing* terrorists are currently planning acts of violence, but rightwing extremists may be gaining new recruits by playing on their fears about several emergent issues. The economic downturn and the election of the first African American president present unique drivers for rightwing radicalization and recruitment.

— (U//LES) Threats from white supremacist and violent antigovernment groups during 2009 have been largely rhetorical and have not indicated plans to carry out violent acts. Nevertheless, the consequences of a prolonged economic downturn—including real estate foreclosures, unemployment, and an inability to obtain credit—could create a fertile recruiting environment for rightwing extremists and even result in confrontations between such groups and government authorities similar to those in the past.

— (U//LES) Rightwing extremists have capitalized on the election of the first African American president, and are focusing their efforts to recruit new members, mobilize existing supporters, and broaden their scope and appeal through propaganda, but they have not yet turned to attack planning.

(U//FOUO) The current economic and political climate has some similarities to the 1990s when rightwing extremism experienced a resurgence fueled largely by an economic recession, criticism about the outsourcing of jobs, and the perceived threat to U.S. power and sovereignty by other foreign powers.

— (U//FOUO) During the 1990s, these issues contributed to the growth in the number of domestic rightwing terrorist and extremist groups and an increase in violent acts targeting government facilities, law enforcement officers, banks, and infrastructure sectors.

— (U//FOUO) Growth of these groups subsided in reaction to increased government scrutiny as a result of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing and disrupted plots, improvements in the economy, and the continued U.S. standing as the preeminent world power.

(U//FOUO) The possible passage of new restrictions on firearms and the return of military veterans facing significant challenges reintegrating into their communities could lead to the potential emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists capable of carrying out violent attacks.

I wonder if Obama and Napolitano are "especially concerned" about this?



Terrorist Bill Ayers to Teach on Radical Theory at Occupy Harrisburg
November 25, 2011

On October 20th, 2011 the Obama-endorsed Occupy Chicago activists invited unrepentant domestic terrorist turned University of Illinois professor, Bill Ayers, to lead a “teach-in” on the virtues of confrontational tactics. The teaching session was dubbed “non-violent disobedience” in the anti-capitalist revolution.

Bill Ayers told the young leftists about how he met with the North Vietnamese to discuss fomenting revolution in America. The meeting was held on the street in downtown Chicago. The young activists lapped it up.

Occupy Harrisburg invited Ayers to lead a teach in and discussion at the Midtown Scholar Bookstore on December 14th. He is also expected to visit the ongoing Occupation of the State Capitol steps. Ayers, a 1960s radical, was a founding member of the Weather Underground in the 1960s and has admitted helping to bomb official sites, including the U.S Capitol and the Pentagon. In the years since he has earned a PhD and is a former university professor.

While divisive politics certainly have a long history, it would seem as though the 1990's saw the current track we're on today really take hold.

Sure, the Dem's have had their moments, but the Republican efforts to maintain authority and destroy Clinton and Obama really has no equal, even considering left wing desires to impeach Bush for misleading the country into the Iraq war.

Obama might appear detached, but I don't think his attitude is a problem. From everything I've read he's completely engaged and works his ass off.

-spence

you're really nuts. Serioulsy. GWB never once responded to the deluge of criticisms on him from Iraq to Katrina while he was president. He never pointed fingers or whined. He acted above all the noise. "O" has lashed out time and time again on the right wing media, talk radio, critics, GOP, etc. He referred to the republicans as ENEMIES when making a latino campaign add. Whine and point fingers and this has done nothing but widen the divide. I dont care how hard he works, his actions and comments have led to a wider divide in this country,.

you're really nuts. Serioulsy. GWB never once responded to the deluge of criticisms on him from Iraq to Katrina while he was president. He never pointed fingers or whined. He acted above all the noise. "O" has lashed out time and time again on the right wing media, talk radio, critics, GOP, etc. He referred to the republicans as ENEMIES when making a latino campaign add. Whine and point fingers and this has done nothing but widen the divide. I dont care how hard he works, his actions and comments have led to a wider divide in this country,.

Dead-on, RIJIMMY. Harry Reid, the majority leader of the Senate, called Bush a "loser". Bush was insulted again and again, and he never responded in kind, he was too good a guy (to his detriment, in my opinion). For someone to suggest that conservatives have cornered the market on boorish behavior is, as you said, "nuts".

But you have to be like that to buy into the liberal ideology. You have to be willing to see only what you want to see, and to frequently ignore that which doesn't serve your agenda, even if what you're ignoring is hard, irrefutable, fact. Lefties viciously attacked the tea party (who almost never misbehaved), and compliment the occupiers (who have descended to violent anarchy almost everywhere).

"his actions and comments have led to a wider divide in this country"

There is no doubt we're more divided now, and Obama has done NOTHING to mitigate this. He has repeatedly shown that he has no time for anyone who isn't inclined to kneel down and kiss his ring.

I thought for sure he'd be a shoe-in for re-election. Hell, there was a time when I relished the thought of only 8 years of him, because I was afraid he'd re-write the constitution and anoint himself president for life. It's amazing to me that with the entire media (except for Foxnews) in his pocket, that his numbers have sunk to this level. His incompetence makes him very vulnerable.

Whine and point fingers and this has done nothing but widen the divide. I dont care how hard he works, his actions and comments have led to a wider divide in this country,.

it's calculated:uhuh:

"An organizer must stir up dissatisfaction and discontent... He must create a mechanism that can drain off the underlying guilt for having accepted the previous situation for so long a time. Out of this mechanism, a new community organization arises....
"The job then is getting the people to move, to act, to participate; in short, to develop and harness the necessary power to effectively conflict with the prevailing patterns and change them. When those prominent in the status quo turn and label you an 'agitator' they are completely correct, for that is, in one word, your function—to agitate to the point of conflict." Saul Alinsky


it's going to get ugly in 2012:uhuh:

you're really nuts. Serioulsy. GWB never once responded to the deluge of criticisms on him from Iraq to Katrina while he was president. He never pointed fingers or whined. He acted above all the noise. "O" has lashed out time and time again on the right wing media, talk radio, critics, GOP, etc. He referred to the republicans as ENEMIES when making a latino campaign add. Whine and point fingers and this has done nothing but widen the divide. I dont care how hard he works, his actions and comments have led to a wider divide in this country,.
This isn't about criticism, it's about coordinated attacks.

-spence

You should do an understudy with Dougles Feith, you guys seem to share the same passion for conspiracy theories.

This isn't about criticism, it's about coordinated attacks.

-spence

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

ohhh, right...the Vast RIGHTWING CONSPIRACY

The fact is the investigation didn't turn up evidence to warrant terror charges. All you have is speculation.
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WIKI
Internal Army reports indicate officers within the Army had discussed what they characterized as Hasan's tendencies toward radical Islam since 2005. Additionally, investigations before and after the shooting discovered e-mail communications between Hasan and Yemen-based cleric Anwar al-Awlaki (ehhh...probably gets lots of emails from lots of people), who quickly declared Hasan a hero, as "fighting against the U.S. army is an Islamic duty".

The U.S. later classified Anwar al-Awlaki as a Specially Designated Global Terrorist, and the UN considered Awlaki to be associated with al-Qaeda (must be pretty bad);

Hasan has expressed admiration for the teachings of Anwar al-Awlaki, imam at the Dar al-Hijrah mosque between 2000 and 2002.[70] As Al-Awlaki was under surveillance, Hasan was investigated by the FBI after intelligence agencies intercepted 18 emails between them between December 2008 and June 2009. In one, Hasan wrote: "I can't wait to join you" in the afterlife.(that's sweet)

Hasan also asked al-Awlaki when jihad is appropriate, and whether it is permissible if innocents are killed in a suicide attack. (did he really have to ask?)



Though Hasan had frequented jihadist web sites promoting radical Islamic views, they said no e-mail communications with outside facilitators or known terrorists were found(except discovered e-mail communications between Hasan and Yemen-based cleric "Specially Designated Global Terrorist" ) . Investigators were evaluating reports that, in 2001, Hasan had attended a mosque in Virginia once attended by two of the 9/11 hijackers and headed by Anwar al-Awlaki (huh...that's a conicidence), who had been accused of aiding the 9/11 plot. Investigators were looking at potential inspiration, to determine if al-Awlaki's teachings could have radicalized Hasan. (no way...c'mon)

No motive for the shootings was offered, but they believed Hasan had authored an Internet posting that appeared to support suicide bombings.(doesn't everyone do this)

He also handed out copies of the Qur'an, along with his business cards which listed a Maryland phone number and read "Behavioral Heatlh [sic] – Mental Health – Life Skills | Nidal Hasan, MD, MPH | SoA(SWT) | Psychiatrist".[76][77] According to investigators, the acronym "SoA" is commonly used on jihadist websites as an acronym for "Soldier of Allah" (that's a nice touch)

Shouting "Allahu Akhbar" as he killed the unarmed. (pretty common I guess)

A Rasmussen national survey found that 65% of Americans favored the death penalty in Hasan's case, and that 60% want the case investigated as an act of terrorism.

WOW...60% Spence...that's like most all Americans in Spence world :uhuh:

you're really nuts. Serioulsy. GWB never once responded to the deluge of criticisms on him from Iraq to Katrina while he was president. He never pointed fingers or whined. He acted above all the noise. "O" has lashed out time and time again on the right wing media, talk radio, critics, GOP, etc. He referred to the republicans as ENEMIES when making a latino campaign add. Whine and point fingers and this has done nothing but widen the divide. I dont care how hard he works, his actions and comments have led to a wider divide in this country,.

he blames...and then he distorts(lies)

When asked what he would say to the African American community now disappointed in him over what many perceive are failed policies, but who, nonetheless, may still support him, President Barack Obama stated:

“The reason they still support me is because they understand what an incredible mess had been made as I was coming into office and we’ve been spending the last three years cleaning it up. The good news is that the economy is starting to strengthen. We’ve seen some positive signs. The unemployment rate has ticked down.”

Really?

WASHINGTON – The unemployment rate fell to 8.6 percent in November, a number that offers the Obama administration a rare piece of good economic news -- but also masks a startling shift in the job market.

The Labor Department said Friday that employers added 120,000 jobs last month. With that, the unemployment rate dropped to the lowest level in more than two and a half years. But a key reason for the sharp drop was that about 315,000 people had stopped looking for work -- for the Labor Department's purposes, they were not counted as unemployed.

The report comes as Congress wrangles over several jobs proposals, including extensions of the payroll tax cut and unemployment aid. And it arrives in advance of the first Republican primaries and caucuses, a race that has revolved around the economy.

More than half the jobs added were by retailers, restaurants and bars, a sign that holiday hiring has kicked in.

This is what constitutes "good news" for Obama these days......if all of the unemployed would just stop looking for work, he could tell everyone he fixed everything and we're back to normal and claim victory...more "snake oil"

The economy still has big problems but I don't think there's any doubt it's slowly getting stronger.

-spence

New AP pole shows 53% of Americans want Obama out of office
with 44% saying he should stay.

Hmm,that 53% must be all those mis-informed middle American's and
rednecks that the peudo-intellectual eletists speak of, couldn't be those
with common sense. :huh:

New AP pole shows 53% of Americans want Obama out of office
with 44% saying he should stay.

Hmm,that 53% must be all those mis-informed middle American's and
rednecks that the peudo-intellectual eletists speak of, couldn't be those
with common sense. :huh:

And in the same poll Obama easily beats Gingrich and barely beats (statistical tie) Romney.

-spence

And in the same poll Obama easily beats Gingrich and barely beats (statistical tie) Romney.

-spence

Would like to know if these were likely voters as the only places Obama is
above 50% approval is enviorment,education and energy.

He is below 50% approval on budget defecit, health care,immigration, taxes,
gas prices and unemployment.

Unless those polled want Socialism as there top priority Mickey Mouse
should be able to defeat him right now.

Would like to know if these were likely voters as the only places Obama is
above 50% approval is enviorment,education and energy.

He is below 50% approval on budget defecit, health care,immigration, taxes,
gas prices and unemployment.

Unless those polled want Socialism as there top priority Mickey Mouse
should be able to defeat him right now.
Don't believe so.

It's simply going to come down to who the GOP nominates rather than desire for socialism. If it's Newt they don't have a chance. Romney it's probably 50/50. I think Huntsman could win.

-spence

Don't believe so.

It's simply going to come down to who the GOP nominates rather than desire for socialism. If it's Newt they don't have a chance. Romney it's probably 50/50. I think Huntsman could win.

-spence

which means ..in the real world...which is the exact opposite of Spenceworld....Huntsman(who doesn't even register 1% in Pennsylvaniaright now) is actually in the wrong party...Romney is 50/50 and Newt has a pretty good shot...

which means ..in the real world...which is the exact opposite of Spenceworld....Huntsman(who doesn't even register 1% in Pennsylvaniaright now) is actually in the wrong party...Romney is 50/50 and Newt has a pretty good shot...

the Newt/Trump ticket. I can see it now.

the Newt/Trump ticket. I can see it now.

I have no idea what the ticket will be but we, at this point, are still talking about Obama/Biden for the dems :jump1:

I have no idea what the ticket will be but we, at this point, are still talking about Obama/Biden for the dems :jump1:

A wining combination if they don't speak without a teleprompter! :love:

If kindergartners, could vote, that is.

which means ..in the real world...which is the exact opposite of Spenceworld....Huntsman(who doesn't even register 1% in Pennsylvaniaright now) is actually in the wrong party...Romney is 50/50 and Newt has a pretty good shot...
It's funny, I've read more editorials ripping Newt apart than I could even bother to recall. And they've all been from leading conservative voices...

What's clear is that it's not just that they think he can't beat Obama, more so it's that they don't want him as President.

Saying a moderate Republican is in the wrong party...is exactly what's wrong right now with the GOP.

-spence

It's funny, I've read more editorials ripping Newt apart than I could even bother to recall. And they've all been from leading conservative voices... sounds like Republicans need a Journ-o-list

What's clear is that it's not just that they think he can't beat Obama, more so it's that they don't want him as President. and they'll all take any Republican nominee over Obama

Saying a moderate Republican is in the wrong party...is exactly what's wrong right now with the GOP.Linc Chaffee, Bloomberg, Arlen Specter, these are all guys that criticized the Republican Party and claimed that the "party left them"

-spence

Chaffee is great isn't he?

I have no idea what the ticket will be but we, at this point, are still talking about Obama/Biden for the dems :jump1:

Hmm, I wonder if Hillary would be the choice over Biden. Obama might not
like that and Hillary may be waiting for Pres 2016. Who knows but both would have to eat crow to make it work.

What's clear is that it's not just that they think he can't beat Obama, more so it's that they don't want him as President.



-spence

May be, but with my ear to the ground right now, people have nothing good to say
about Obama. With the press being so slanted toward Obama I doubt many people
will make a decesion based on editorials but on their pocket books.
The natives are restless. :hihi:

May be, but with my ear to the ground right now, people have nothing good to say
about Obama. With the press being so slanted toward Obama I doubt many people
will make a decesion based on editorials but on their pocket books.
The natives are restless. :hihi:
Obama is either hot or cold, in that they either do an excellent or terrible job of managing the debate.

If Obama stands up and proclaims he kept us out of a depression and the economy is slowly recovering, killed OBL and a lot of other terrorists, got us finally out of Iraq, expanded health care for millions of Americans and signed a lot of good regulation to protect consumers and the environment. Etc...

Seriously, I forgot to pay my small Firestone bill the other month and because of Democratic legislation I only had to pay a small interest charge rather than a 40 dollar penalty. I like that :uhuh:

A LOT of independent voters will be looking for a much stronger Republican opponent than what the current field is providing. Neither of the two top candidates, Newt and Romney, will excite the evangelical base who turned out for Bush. Romney has a much larger chance of capturing independents but Newt will be like independent kryptonite and kill a lot of Republican Congresspeople in the process. But Romney, while I think he'd make a decent president, there's just that something about him.

Just like in 2004, once it really comes down to the devil you know vs the devil you don't, the incumbent almost always has the upper hand.

-spence

Seriously, I forgot to pay my small Firestone bill the other month and because of Democratic legislation I only had to pay a small interest charge rather than a 40 dollar penalty. I like that :uhuh:

A LOT of independent voters will be looking for a much stronger Republican opponent than what the current field is providing. But Romney, while I think he'd make a decent president, there's just that something about him.



-spence

You teamin up with the Dems and taking advantage of the legislation makes
me part owner of your tires. :hihi: Being you want to pay more taxes ya shoulda
been happy paying the $40 penalty anyway "to help the Folks."

Ya I agree there is something there with Romney that I can't put my finger on?

No, just means a credit card company shouldn't be able to charge more for a penalty than I owed on the card!

You teamin up with the Dems and taking advantage of the legislation makes
me part owner of your tires. :hihi: Being you want to pay more taxes ya shoulda
been happy paying the $40 penalty anyway "to help the Folks."

Ya I agree there is something there with Romney that I can't put my finger on?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

No, just means a credit card company shouldn't be able to charge more for a penalty than I owed on the card!


Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Ya, but that's found money you should be happy to send it to the Govt
so they can spend it for you. :)

Thanks!

However, I divert all of my support to Newt, the most brilliant, skilled politician the planet has seen, since Churchill.

in the camp --> America's only Hope

make romney the VP