Curious if anyone has taken anyone up on these lease a solar system for your house programs. They give you a free solar system installed and you pay them for your electricity?

That seems to be the way to go now where I bought mine!:smash:

Scott - I had a friend look into it . . . the way it works for the outfit she talked to you agree to let them install the equipment - they did a site visit and all to see if her house had the capacity/exposure for the solar equipment . . . depending upon whether the panels produce more or less power than you consume determines whether "sell" electricity to "the grid" or buy from the grid (after factoring some payback for the cost of the equipment installed) - all in all it was a real long term commitment with no guaranty it would reduce costs - she took a pass . . . <she's a single Mom with teenagers . . . guess that's enough risk for her> :rotf2:

Yea I got a meeting with a guy tonite for this. Kinda what I figured. Tnx G2!

Actually what she told you isn't true. It will definitely reduce your costs. I signed. I got 4 mos to cancel at no obligation

They say I can handle 26 panels, 6600 watts per year. I figured out my average is 12,400 watts per year I buy from nat grid. I pay them for the 6600w. I pay nat grid for whatever I use beyond that. Nat Grid is increasing 6% per year, these guys don't they figure a flat wattage price. If I took this months (very low) electric bill of $141, I would pay the ratio of the 6600vs12400 to national grid and a flat charge to the solar people. During the day if I generate more than what I use I get energy credits. At night when the panels aren't producing it takes those credits back. At the end of the year if they don't generate 6600w then they give me a check in hand for what it cost me to buy that electricity from Nat Grid (.15kwh)

On top of that I get 6600 watts of power or roughly half of what my house needs at a fixed rate for 20 years. Currently half of what I'm paying.. GUARANTEED.

If the system doesn't generate what they expect they will come and take it out and make the house whole again. They insure this, they own it, if anything happens to it they repair it, they replace it, whatever it takes.

BUT they get all the rebates, the green subsidies, the tax credits, etc etc.

He says the systems cost $35k....I don't believe it.

They are giving me references as many as I want..free to call and speak with people who have the systems. He says it increases the selling value of the house by roughly $15k and people have been enticed with houses that are setup for green living so houses sell better. It transfers to whoever buys the house if we sell it.

sunrun solar

Thank Obama ;)
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cahm help me o'bama cahm help me

Hi nebe

Sounds like a call to Pakistan.
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And if they said it increases the selling value by anything I call BS because that's not true one bit. If they told you that they probably told you other BS. You met with a salesman.
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WPM I read it on another website also.

Why do you say it doesn't? An article I read last night said people PREFER PPA's and that it can save alot of money.

Resale disaster for the general public. May not take a pounding if you find a niche buyer.Like most alternative power sources it costs more to produce than you actually save. Hence the Obama handouts for creativity.Whenever you use an unconventional system such as this it certainly can not be considered an investment.

Resale disaster for the general public. May not take a pounding if you find a niche buyer.Like most alternative power sources it costs more to produce than you actually save. Hence the Obama handouts for creativity.Whenever you use an unconventional system such as this it certainly can not be considered an investment.
I don't think unconventional necessarily means, bad idea. If that were the case, we would not have any level of innovation. For instance, in other countries, passive-rooftop hot water heaters are the norm. In the States, it's an unconventional way of heating your home water. I know a couple people that installed passive systems and will break-even on the investment within 5 years - and that's in Massachusetts. Move that same system further South and the break-even point would be even sooner.

However with solar, most systems aren't efficient enough for this area... yet. With subsidies, solar in our region doesn't make sense. The technology is there though, that within 5 years, the efficiency and storage capacity could be worth the investment.

I'll agree with you in one aspect though... some of these "creative programs" are just a way of putting lipstick on a pig - spinning a poor idea and making it look favorable.

Resale disaster...
Taking a pounding...

I'm all ears would like to see specific examplese cuz I'm not finding this


Resale disaster for the general public. May not take a pounding if you find a niche buyer.Like most alternative power sources it costs more to produce than you actually save. Hence the Obama handouts for creativity.Whenever you use an unconventional system such as this it certainly can not be considered an investment.
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With my PV electric I've figured that the payback based solely upon $ saved on electricity produced is >20yrs. That is also based on 50-60% of the capital/installation costs reimbursed via grants/tax reductions. It is only when you make assumptions that the system will add XX amount to the selling price of the home do you get paybacks in <10yrs.

I bounced this off someone today that has extensive experience with these ppa's and he says the devil is in the details...but in my case because it's a 6600kwh system per year and it's well below the yearly level of 12,400 kwh so in my case he says I will save quite a bit of money. Especially in 10 years when the rates will be even higher than they are now.

Now I'm wondering if the system is too small...

Especially in 10 years when the rates will be even higher than they are now.
That's the other thing... people calculate the break-even point using current energy costs (this is also how the big electric companies try to convince people of how bad an idea solar is). On the other hand, with inflation and ever-increasing energy costs, the break-even point moves much closer.

There's no break even point here. Right now I'm paying .15 a kwh and using 12400kwh a year. They're offering to sell me 6600 kwh at .15 a kwh or whatever it was. The rest I pay to Nat Grid over and above what they sell to me. If the panels make 8000kwh per year I would pay for that. If they make 4000 kwh they pay the difference for what it cost me to buy from Nat Grid. And if the system doesn't perform they pull it and leave the house as original.

What do I have to break even on?? Next year my Nat Grid bill will be minimum 5% higher. But my bill is now only whatever I need above the solar panel use and I'm still paying the old rate to sunrun. In 5 years from now you could expect electric to be probably .25 per kwh and I'm still only paying .15 for the sun power. The system cost me nothing. I just agree to pay them this rate for the next 20 years.

So whats there to look at payback on for me?

On top of this the guy had no problem calling a tree guy they work with to take some trees down in the front of the house. Which needed to come down anyways...

Guess whose getting the wood. There's TWO 90' pines there. That's about 150,000 lures :D

Ah, I get it now. So you're letting them install the panels on your property and then paying them for the electricity generated by the panels. I thought it was some kind of "lease to own" kind of thing or like PRBuzz has where he owns the panels, the asset is added to the value of the house and has the potential to increase his home's value.

With no asset gained, I can't imagine how this would increase the value of your house.

Also, what happens if the company goes under?

Here's my payback calculations based upon the ave. monthly (3 yr ave) energy my system (3.45kW) produces. The 1st couple of years besides savings from Nat Grid on my electric, I could sell REC credits, originally they were $0.06 KWH but 2 years ago the price dropped to $0.03 KWH and I didn't renew the contract however for this example I have left them in.

When I first did the calc. the fully burdened costs was $0.12348 KWH (red), check this month's bill it is already up to $0.1784 over the last 5 years, what will it be 20 yrs from now? Table show another 3X increase. This is a very simple analysis just assuming you pay the same KWH rate the entire time vs. amortized in any way.

He said it increased the value because people are turning more towards alternative energy and the fact that I signed this ppa in 10 years will be attractive to anyone that buys the house if I sell.

It's a management company if they go out of business then someone else picks it up. I asked that :) I looked into the company some more. It's funded by venture capital. Backed by alot of big companies such as Home Depot etc.

Go for it Salty, if I had to do over again that's the route I would take.

what happens if you need to do the roof over?
My bud on Cape just bought a complete system for his house. Between rebates and such came out to about 1/3 of the original price. They don't actually buy the excess electricity off him but they let you stock pile it for lack of a better word, meter turns backwards, and then when you need to draw power like after the sun goes down you then have credit. You still need to pay the delivery charge and generation fee because you are using their lines. he is not making any more electricity than he uses each day yet but when the sun is in the sky for longer periods of time he expects to stockpile a decent amount but will take the whole year for him to get the whole idea on what it pans out to be. Let us know how it works out for you in the future as I have thought about this too.

7 year old roof no worries. Tnx for the input Paul.

I'd still like to hear back from Sea Dangles on the previous with examples. I looked around again last night and still didn't find any horror stories.

Now I'm wondering if the system is too small...

SIZE: Go as big as your roof permits OR to the limits of the rebates/tax credits. You (or the leasee) don't want to bear the full costs of the PV size above rebates. I was limited to as 3.45KW system by the rebates not the roof area.

ROOFING: yes replacing a roof can be an issue, make sure the current roof surface will last 20+ years. I had new 40yr shingles installed a couple years before installing the PV array.

SNOW: I am able most of the time to accelerate the removal of snow from the panels manually, if you don't you might lose several days production on decent sized storms.

SHADE: check not only your own property but trees in the neighbor's yard might cast a shadow, especially this time of year, not that you can do anything about it.

They say 26 panels at 6600kwh and that will leave a 3' space on each side of the array.

I have a bunch of questions still for these guys but I'm steering towards doing this right now.

I understand these can be moved after 10 years...

What if I decide in 5 years to cut National Grid out and add additional panels...am I required to continue to pay national grid?

What if home electricity is deregulated can I then go buy my line power from anyone?

I understand these can be moved after 10 years...

What if I decide in 5 years to cut National Grid out and add additional panels...am I required to continue to pay national grid?


Not sure what you mean by 10 yrs, the array can be disassembled/reassembled like an erector set anytime, like if a roof needs replacing, but of course it will cost you extra to do so.

Unless you install batteries to store the overproduced electricity during the day to use at night, you will always need a 2nd party electric provider, Nat Grid or otherwise. The batteries will cost you a fortune (likely more $$ than the PV array). BTW: in a grid connected system, if the provider looses power due to a storm: you don't make your own electricity! The DC/AC inverter has to sense power from the street. Again it is an issue of having a battery system to absorb excess power produced.

If I sell the house in 10 years I can opt to have them come and move it to my new house or leave it on-site and the new owner assumes the lease.

mcguyver says if I lose power I flip the master and put my own 110 on it :)

mcguyver says if I lose power I flip the master and put my own 110 on it :)

I've thought about this a lot and once your PV sends electrons to the inverter and the inverter converts DC/AC you have to have a place for the electrons to go: either usage or battery, or constantly blow the fuse in the generator. You also have to deal with the minute to minute fluctuations in flow when going from full sun to full clouds, angle of the sun, etc. so you need a buffer, again the battery. Adds lots of cost to the system.

He says it increases the selling value of the house by roughly $15k and people have been enticed with houses that are setup for green living so houses sell better. It transfers to whoever buys the house if we sell it.

Did you get this part in writing?

In today's world of real estate you can install a 40,000 dollar kitchen and you will not get your money back. Buyer's today expect granite counter tops and stainless appliances today with the low ball offer that they present to seller.

It's on their webpage I believe Flyrod. I think I saw this mentioned in a video also if not mistaken I saw this on several websites too.

Well as of right now we are a go. The numbers make sense. They will give you a cheaper rate than your paying now if you beat them up. I'm going to save .05 kwh right off the bat and NO yearly escalator!!!!

If anyone else is thinking about doing this then I would get on the website and get an appt booked RIGHT NOW. There's still enough time before the end of the year.

This is a serious no brainer. Coupon attached also.

This is a totally free solar system. There are no up-front costs involved.

I know you look at everything Scott, but there has to be a catch...
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This is a totally free solar system. There are no up-front costs involved.
I know it's just a matter of semantics but it's technically not free. You're just allowing them to put the power plant on your roof. At the end of the agreement, they take their stuff and go home.

I'm looking forward to this working out for you. The skeptic in me is with striperman36, there's gotta be a catch somewhere.

There is no catch. I've been through the PPA 3 times. I've been through everything. I had someone else review the whole thing too and his only thought was that the escalator would not make it so attractive. I hit the guy with the comment and he removed the escalator and lowered the rate to make it even more attractive.

The catch? For me there isn't one. For them there's many. They get the rebates, the tax incentives, the saleable renewable energy credits....nothing else. I will not ever pay anything more than the contract shows.

Striperman or anyone else, go make an appointment with them. It's FREE. Take a look at it yourself. You'll see. I was skeptical and I now fully see how they're doing it.

YOU ARE INCORRECT SIR.

I have the option to buy the system at ANY time (with depreciation costs figured into system costs) and assume all the credits etc.

At the end of the PPA, THE COST TO OWN THE SYSTEM IS ON PAPER AS ZERO DOLLARS.

So what about .05/kwh instant savings on more than 1/2 of my electric bill for the next 20 years, a ZERO cost system at 20 years (panels are junk by then), and NO UPFRONT costs makes it "technically not free" to me?



I know it's just a matter of semantics but it's technically not free. You're just allowing them to put the power plant on your roof. At the end of the agreement, they take their stuff and go home.

I'm looking forward to this working out for you. The skeptic in me is with striperman36, there's gotta be a catch somewhere.

Where are you going to park your battery trailer?



Of course you don't need 82,000 Li ion cells but some interesting info here: use it or lose it without batteries!

no batteries YIKES I can't imagine what happens to that trailer if a bunch of cells go off when charging

Li Ion is well known for it's instability.... BOOOOOOOM

The meter spins in reverse during the day and you build up "credits", these "credits" are then used at night when your drawing power off the grid. So if I generate lets say 20 kwh in one day off the panel, my electric bill is reduced at night by the 20 kwh I've built up. It's a net wash. I pay only for the electricity I use from Nat Grid. If they don't give me enough juice then at the end of the year they give me the money difference I had to pay Nat Grid. I will be able to watch the whole thing on a computer like Buzz does right now. If the system don't work like they say then it's their job to take it out and leave building in as previous condx. No cost.

no batteries YIKES I can't imagine what happens to that trailer if a bunch of cells go off when charging

Li Ion is well known for it's instability.... BOOOOOOOM

AKA: Chevy Volt! I think I read the Volt is changing to this new A123 type of Li-phosphate battery for storage, less chance of a BOOM?

That's got to be a BIG monkey on their backs.

Your just seeing the tip of the iceberg.

Who has replaced one of these batteries so far....would love to hear the cost....and the disposal costs... lessee if your rat trap is so ecofriendly now :smash:

I'll bet a Prius is no small change.

VOLT was specced at 14K for the battery

hahahahahaha how many people you think are going to dump that kind of dough into a 5 year old car..

I'll bet a Prius is no small change.

VOLT was specced at 14K for the battery

My Prius came with an 8yr/100K warranty on the battery. I figure I'll just drive my 2004 with 96K miles into the ground as replacing the battery will not be worth it! There are owners with over 300K on Prius so not sure what the determining factor is: general age, charge cycles, miles, or combination of everything.

Best way might be to have the car in a rear end accident and get the insurance $$. Not sure how accurate from one source: "The hybrid packs cost under $2000 new and under $1000 used. Only a freak few have needed replacement due to normal use. The main need for replacement has been from auto accidents that physically damaged the battery pack enclosure."

YOU ARE INCORRECT SIR.

I have the option to buy the system at ANY time (with depreciation costs figured into system costs) and assume all the credits etc.

At the end of the PPA, THE COST TO OWN THE SYSTEM IS ON PAPER AS ZERO DOLLARS.

So what about .05/kwh instant savings on more than 1/2 of my electric bill for the next 20 years, a ZERO cost system at 20 years (panels are junk by then), and NO UPFRONT costs makes it "technically not free" to me?
I must have missed your mention of that above.

With all that in mind, definitely seems like a no-brainer.

Johnny when I get some time at the shop I'll scan all the stuff and post online.

It'll probably be after the first of the year so if anyone is thinking of this do not wait. It's got to be more expensive next year if indeed the tax stuff ends this year...

Today was engineer visit. Measured the roof. Math doesn't add up. Says the panels are 39" wide, my roof is 17x34, they said 3' in all directions clearance for walking on the roof, that adds up to 18 panels not 26 so that's like 4.8kw instead of 6.8 kw that they were talking about. So that would be 1/2 of my electricity.....see what they come back with.

Do you have a sunny ground location that you would want to sacrifice for additional panels? No more mowing.....

no I don't want anything in the yard.