Is there a specific distance between the reel spool and the first guide for low rider.The rod layout i was going to use was for k-frame quides on an 11" rod.CMS was recently cleaned out of k-frames so i got low riders.On the pole i was going to copy from the first guide sits 39.5" from spool when extended.Thanks Doug

I cleaned CMS out of the KW's. :)

I'm not big on low riders but the 20LC is nice and high so it can go pretty far out. Depend on reel and line. 39.5 is probably OK but you could go 43 or even longer depending on the specifics or reel and line. Don't forget to turn the first 1 to 3 LC guides around backwards . At least the first one anyway.

If I were you , I would wait for CMS to get more KW's (they may have some by today or friday, call first) and then return your LC's. At most , use the one size 20 LC aa a striper then switch to the KW's.

WHERE DO THEY TAKE THE 47" MEASUREMENT FOR THE 20LC FROM THAT YOU READ ABOUT, REEL SPOOL OR REEL STEM?

Fuji specs call out 47 (120 CM) from the stem. Now it seems to me that different reels would change that but their sample layouts (all those catalogs on line are in Japanese language to make life even more difficult) for LC show the reel stem as the datum.

Now for KW's and other guides when doing a "concept" layout , its from the extended spool to locate the choker then you work backwardsfrom the choker to find the stripper and reduction guide locations..

So anyway , if you read the question he references extended spool face so thats why I mentioned 43 (figuring about 4 inches from stem to spool face) but of course not all reels are the same.

If you go to Anglersresource , the GPS tool will show you many layouts for various guide types and reel info as an input. Again , there will be a gazillion options but its something to look at to help gain some understanding.

I cleaned CMS out of the KW's. :)

I'm not big on low riders but the 20LC is nice and high so it can go pretty far out. Depend on reel and line. 39.5 is probably OK but you could go 43 or even longer depending on the specifics or reel and line. Don't forget to turn the first 1 to 3 LC guides around backwards . At least the first one anyway.

If I were you , I would wait for CMS to get more KW's (they may have some by today or friday, call first) and then return your LC's. At most , use the one size 20 LC aa a striper then switch to the KW's.

I was down there charlie told me.He was a few short so i thought to try the lc's.Got some kw's on the way.I had second thoughts as soon as i walked out the door but i figured i'de try them.Back to my first choice i already have a layout for and the reel im going to use.Thank you for replying.

Don't rule out the low riders. I have 2 rods that I use a lot with them . 1322 Arra and a Century Slingshot 11. Both cast like no tomorrow and work great with all uses. Eels to jigs. Ron-Zs and plugs.

I have used plenty of them but I simply don't like them overall and hate them with a passion the closer they get to the tip. I understand some people like them. I will pray for their enlightenment. :)

LOL oh ye of little faith LOL

Both my custom lamis have lowriders and I love them, no issues what so ever.

I throw everything from loaded redfins to big riggies. Can get some amazing distance with pencils and tins

I personally like em, will be cool to do this build with saltheart and using the kw and the century rod.
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No doubt you can make long casting rods using LC's. However other guides enable long casting and long casting is not the only factor. The other advantage of the LC's is their tangle free frame design. Many rods built before the KW's came out were built using LC's for that feature alone. Now that the KW's also have the tangle free frames , that advantage of LC's is no longer unique.

IMO if fuji comes out with a high framed 20 KW (as high as the HV 20 was) , there would never be a need to use LC's again. Just my opinion. I don't have the time to look up the data on the Japanese Fuji site right now but I have in the past. Many LC guides weigh twice as much as a normal frame style guide and some weigh three times as much. In addition to that , I do not like the long legs close to the tip. Some will argue the long legs allow the frames to flex with the rod better. I don't think that happens with the typical striper rod. I think with the tipical tip thickness and taper of striper rods, the long legs splint the blank creating high stress spots. Now I have gotten into some real knock down drag out arguments about this on the internet in the past so obviously some people strongly believe differently. That's what keeps these rodbuilding forums hopping!

I pretty much agree with what saltheart said, but I am pretty much sold on a 20 lc for the gathering guide. That said, I run single foots the rest of the way. However, my next build starts with a 25 kw. we'll see... I may be a convert. As saltheart indicates, if they come out with a 20kw with the height of a 20 lc, the lc will be obsolete.

So you guys are using a size 20 lowrider for the first (collector) guide then kw guides for the rest?

All SiC too right?

This rod building stuff is all new to me but I want to learn and have been watching a lot of videos and reading as much as I can.
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No doubt you can make long casting rods using LC's. However other guides enable long casting and long casting is not the only factor. The other advantage of the LC's is their tangle free frame design. Many rods built before the KW's came out were built using LC's for that feature alone. Now that the KW's also have the tangle free frames , that advantage of LC's is no longer unique.

IMO if fuji comes out with a high framed 20 KW (as high as the HV 20 was) , there would never be a need to use LC's again. Just my opinion. I don't have the time to look up the data on the Japanese Fuji site right now but I have in the past. Many LC guides weigh twice as much as a normal frame style guide and some weigh three times as much. In addition to that , I do not like the long legs close to the tip. Some will argue the long legs allow the frames to flex with the rod better. I don't think that happens with the typical striper rod. I think with the tipical tip thickness and taper of striper rods, the long legs splint the blank creating high stress spots. Now I have gotten into some real knock down drag out arguments about this on the internet in the past so obviously some people strongly believe differently. That's what keeps these rodbuilding forums hopping!

Talked to Rich from CTS yesterday and he said he has them in stock,high frame kw's.

Two things. First chris's questions. No , if you use an LC 20 as a striper you would not likely use KW's the rest of the way. You could but I haven't seen that. Second. About SiC. Now a days I believe for surf rods Alconite is the best choice. Its lighter and more resistant to breakage by accidental impact on rocks , etc. Its Fuji's newest ring material and IMO the best they offer for surf rods. Now if you are doing an application that will require heavy forces and fast line take outs like tuna or something , you may want to look at SiC do to its ability to disappate heat.

Rodbuilding knowledge is accumulated over time and exposure to info and by what you learn building. There are a lot of "if , and and but" 's going on and these take time to digest and put in place relative to everything else.

Striper 774. There are KW's in J size and that is likely what your friend is refering to as high frame. There are KW's in knows as L's in sizes 30 and 40 , so KW 30L. This brought the 30 down in height. You can use a 30L as a striper but its pretty big. The 25J is just about the height of the LC20 but the ring is 5 mm bigger. What I would like to see would be a KW20 that is even higher than the J height. because its not available , IMO the 25J is the way to go.

Now don't forget that the old 40 , 30 , 20 , 16 , 12 in SV's and a 16 PST tip is still a very good build as long as you do it right. All this mental masturbation about the gazillion possible guide style and placement schemes are trying to eek out just a few more yards to the cast and perhaps (perhaps) get a little more feel or sensitivity in the rod. There are costs and benefits to all this stuff.

Chris
I've got a layout for an 11 foot rod that goes low rider 20 , 16, 12, 8, then kw size 8 runners ( six of them) to the tip. It casts well with a ZB 25 if you want to try it, and is very light. I don' t see any reason you couldn't use kw guides instead of LC guides as the transition guides after the LC collector if you wanted, although I doubt there would be a big difference. Whether there is any big advantage to using a LC for the collector as opposed to a medium (25 or 30L) KW I can't say (but suspect not) and as Saltheart points out the height options on k guides is increasing so it may be a mute point soon. The thing I am convinced of, however, is that the older NGC layout formula that places your choke guide so far out the rod is not necessary with braid. You can cone down faster and still get a good casting rod that is even more tip light than the standard NGC layout.

One other thing to consider, the ZB 27 has a big spool and larger spool sizes create issues with the placement of the first LC guide.
The KW 25 may help avoid this and is well worth a look before assuming the LC is a better option with a large spool. Likewise, if you are building for a smaller spooled reel like a 5000 or ZB 22, then right now the LC 16M is a very good option in my experience.
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So you guys are using a size 20 lowrider for the first (collector) guide then kw guides for the rest?

All SiC too right?

This rod building stuff is all new to me but I want to learn and have been watching a lot of videos and reading as much as I can.
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On the last few rods, I have run an lc 20, then y frame singles and bldbag singles on the tip (all alconite). The bldbags are size 6, but because of the angle, they pass line like an 8 or 10. I have used them on two rods with no problems. If you want single foots, I recommend them. I use a forhan locking wrap with all my single foots. I throw 4oz on the rods and occasionally 5, although I would probably go with double foots on a rod where 5oz+ is typical (like a 1209).
http://acidrod.com/images/BLDBAG.JPG