A commercial guy on another site, John Rice (capecodder 19 ?), is claiming that,

"Pat from MSBA summed it up nicely, when he said that MSBA is the voice of rec bass fishermen here in MA and not SF and that MSBA is totally opposed to this."

Is this true or is this guy misrepresenting what was said?
Did the MSBA actually represent themselves as "our" voice?

If so, how did they go about it?
Did their members who sell bass abstain from voting?
Did they take a vote or did their leadership decide for them?
Did they sample survey the 99.9% of striped bass fishermen in the state that do not attend their meetings?


It dawns on me that MSBA does have a chance to do this right. They could run a survey at their MSBA show, on the back of the ticket used for the entry raffle. They could ask with a sign "do you favor gamefish status for striped bass...yes or no?" We could then write yes or no on the ticket as we drop it in the raffle box. It would be simple to tally this up. This would certainly help them speak for us in a more informed manner. I can't see why they wouldn't do it if they are honest about being an objective representative of general recreational opinion in this state .

Any chance of this happening, Pat?

"Pat from MSBA summed it up nicely, when he said that MSBA is the voice of rec bass fishermen here in MA and not SF and that MSBA is totally opposed to this."

That's dissapointing news - but can't say I'm surprised.

DZ

MSBA is only the voice of people that pay for membership - commercial, recreational and charter fishermen alike.

However, claiming that MSBA is the voice of recreational fishermen and then saying that MSBA is against the bill is a nice bit of politics. I'd bet more than a few people heard that and thought "well, if the voice of the rec community is against this, then I definitely should be."

Is this year's Stripers Forever Bill perfect? Certainly not. But it sure as hell is better than the current regulation.

One thing I took from the meeting which I did attend was SF is willing to work with DMF and whom ever to rewrite the bill to a favorable compromise to ensure MA enacts some type of conservative measures with what they/we are allotted. This seems to be a departure. I give them credit for stepping across the aisle. Not many groups are that willing to bend.
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No reason to rehash that dead horse.
SF doesn't speak for everyone either. Not by a long shot.

Some kill bass for a living.
Some kill bass to pay for their hobby.
Some kill bass to eat (or feed their friends and family).
Some kill bass to for sport (C&R guys like me).

These are all valid uses and have different interests in management decisions.

It just strikes me that if MSBA or one of their officers presumes to speak for the recreational community, they have a responsibility and opportunity to survey that community through their well attended MSBA show. So why not do it?

Along the same lines, it strikes me that NOAA or MA also now has the ability to survey recreational fishermen during the license renewal/license survey process. Rather then these inane theoretical questions on the current survey, why not ask things like,

What 3 species are your primary targets?
What do you estimate you spend on fishing each year?
Do you also hold any commercial permits?
Would you support a reduced limits if any quota reduction was conservation directed coast wide?

Seems to me this sort of information is crucial to making better management decisions.

Striped bass catch limit bills draw crowds, encounter resistance - Rockport, MA - Wicked Local Rockport (http://www.wickedlocal.com/rockport/news/x564870219/Striped-bass-catch-limit-bills-draw-crowds-encounter-resistance#axzz1nmtrbCYH)


I don't favor stripers being designated a game fish, and agree with the words of this charter captain.

Peter Kelly, a charter captain from Marion, said he has been fishing in Massachusetts waters for more than 45 years. He theorized that the warmer water in the past few years was driving more fish further off the coast. That is why recreational fishermen, who cannot afford to fuel boats to go further out, may be seeing less fish, he said.

“As fuel keeps going up, recreational catches are going to keep going down,” Kelly said.

Striped bass catch limit bills draw crowds, encounter resistance - Rockport, MA - Wicked Local Rockport (http://www.wickedlocal.com/rockport/news/x564870219/Striped-bass-catch-limit-bills-draw-crowds-encounter-resistance#axzz1nmtrbCYH)


I don't favor stripers being designated a game fish, and agree with the words of this charter captain.

Peter Kelly, a charter captain from Marion, said he has been fishing in Massachusetts waters for more than 45 years. He theorized that the warmer water in the past few years was driving more fish further off the coast. That is why recreational fishermen, who cannot afford to fuel boats to go further out, may be seeing less fish, he said.

“As fuel keeps going up, recreational catches are going to keep going down,” Kelly said.

I thought fishing for stripers in the EEZ was illegal.

I don't favor stripers being designated a game fish, and agree with the words of this charter captain.

Peter Kelly, a charter captain from Marion, said he has been fishing in Massachusetts waters for more than 45 years. He theorized that the warmer water in the past few years was driving more fish further off the coast. That is why recreational fishermen, who cannot afford to fuel boats to go further out, may be seeing less fish, he said.

“As fuel keeps going up, recreational catches are going to keep going down,” Kelly said.
Sounds like just another unsupported claim. Tens of thousands of square miles of ocean, one person's or a few people's experience isn't valid.

It's like looking at the stars through a pinhole in a piece of paper and claiming that you can make valid estimates about the cosmos based on that pinhole view.

I thought fishing for stripers in the EEZ was illegal.

Most of the fish caught in MA this year came from a single school off Chatham that hung 1/2 to 3 miles out.

As for global warming being the culprit, I'd think Maine and NH would be the beneficiary but that is not happening.

It doesn't really matter, however, this thread is not about what is happening to the fish, it is about what MSBA could or should do in order to speak more accurately for all the recreational fishermen in the state if that is in fact how they have represented themselves. Again, as a club they have an ideal opportunity to survey recreational fishermen on this hot topic issue (as admission tickets are turned in) and doing so certainly would be helpful to clarifying just exactly how recreational fishermen really do feel.

It is so simple to do, why not do it?

It's like looking at the stars through a pinhole in a piece of paper and claiming that you can make valid estimates about the cosmos based on that pinhole view.

We all have our opinions. I second the belief that the fish have moved offshore based on my own experience, and if my opinion is a pinhole in a piece of paper, so be it. but my pinhole view is becuase I've focused more on tuna fishing fishing than bass fishing. While dropping butterfly's or sluggos looking for tuna on many days has led to bass on every drop. If using live pogies on these same days, it's torture, what would normally be a 'best day ever' landing 30+lb bass is disappointing because your $5 pogie is not getting hit by a BFT and you're landing bass on 50wt gear.

Counting fish is no where near accurate, if it was, why was there a moratorium on dogfishing (another topic, but I think those things are big reason for poor cod stocks)? Dogs can regularly be seen finning on top from p-town to cape ann.

A commercial guy on another site, John Rice (capecodder 19 ?), is claiming that,

"Pat from MSBA summed it up nicely, when he said that MSBA is the voice of rec bass fishermen here in MA and not SF and that MSBA is totally opposed to this."

Is this true or is this guy misrepresenting what was said?
Did the MSBA actually represent themselves as "our" voice?

If so, how did they go about it?
Did their members who sell bass abstain from voting?
Did they take a vote or did their leadership decide for them?
Did they sample survey the 99.9% of striped bass fishermen in the state that do not attend their meetings?


It dawns on me that MSBA does have a chance to do this right. They could run a survey at their MSBA show, on the back of the ticket used for the entry raffle. They could ask with a sign "do you favor gamefish status for striped bass...yes or no?" We could then write yes or no on the ticket as we drop it in the raffle box. It would be simple to tally this up. This would certainly help them speak for us in a more informed manner. I can't see why they wouldn't do it if they are honest about being an objective representative of general recreational opinion in this state .

Any chance of this happening, Pat?


Is there a chance that guy misquoted Patrick? :huh:

just asking

Is there a chance that guy misquoted Patrick? :huh:

just asking

X2, I hope he was "misquoted".

Counting fish is no where near accurate, if it was, why was there a moratorium on dogfishing (another topic, but I think those things are big reason for poor cod stocks)? Dogs can regularly be seen finning on top from p-town to cape ann.
If counting fish is no where near accurate, then how can anecdotal stories of a few people that saw a lot of bass be any more valid?

If counting fish is no where near accurate, then how can anecdotal stories of a few people that saw a lot of bass be any more valid?

Good we agree.

Let's work on that world peace issue next.

Fisherman for Romney in 2012 :rotf2:

If counting fish is no where near accurate, then how can anecdotal stories of a few people that saw a lot of bass be any more valid?

Anecdotal stories and innuendo is the only thing you've brought to table for the last 2 weeks of this conversation.

I guess that's
only allowed if the person agrees with you.
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STRIPED BASS CATCH LIMIT BILLS DRAW CROWDS, ENCOUNTER RESISTANCE

By Colleen Quinn
STATE HOUSE NEWS SERVICE

BOSTON, STATE HOUSE, FEB. 28, 2012…..Commercial fishermen pleaded with lawmakers Tuesday not to interfere with striped bass catch limits, saying it is not the Legislature’s place to manage fisheries.

But others who run recreational fishing charter boats argued if state lawmakers do nothing, striped bass stocks will continue to dwindle and tourists who come to Massachusetts to fish in coastal communities will disappear, hurting local economies.

The two sides spent nearly five hours trying to convince lawmakers of their opposing viewpoints during a packed hearing of the Joint Committee on Environment, Natural Resources and Agriculture. The committee is chaired by Sen. Marc Pacheco (D-Taunton) and Rep. Anne Gobi (D-Spencer).

The commercial and recreational fishermen, charter boat captains, scientists, and seafood restaurateurs testified about the potential impacts of four bills aimed at restricting striped bass catches and declaring it a “game fish,” essentially prohibiting commercial fishing. Five other states have passed similar legislation declaring striped bass a game fish, including Maine, New Hampshire, and Connecticut.

Recreational fishermen fell on both sides of the issue with some pushing for limits, while others argued restrictions unnecessarily pit one group of fishermen against another.

“There is a myth out there that the recreational fishing community is behind this bill,” said Patrick Paquette, from the Massachusetts Striped Bass Association. “To pit a commercial fisherman against a recreational fisherman . . . I would hope legislators would sit back and say this has to be the wrong thing to do. Please don’t take one group of extremists as being the voice of the recreational community, because they are not.”

Capt. Michael Pierdinock, who runs charter boats on the South Shore, said he opposes the bills because since 1995 the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission has done a good job managing and restoring the striped bass stock.

“It is the crown jewel example of fisheries management,” Pierdinock said.

Other recreational fishermen and charter boat captains said there is a real need for limits, arguing their livelihood is being impacted by a lack of fish.

John Kaufman, who fishes off Martha’s Vineyard, said the numbers of striped bass have been in radical decline. “We have a problem. The commercial industry has a history of being blind in terms of the numbers,” Kaufman said.

Capt. James Goodheart, who runs a charter boat for recreational fishers out of Newburyport, said his business depends on an abundance of striped bass being in the water. Goodheart said people who fish with him catch and release the bass, but they enjoy the sport of catching them. Without more fish, they will not come, he said, testifying in favor of catch limits.

Fishing tourists travel from all over the country, staying in local hotels, buying bait at area tackle shops and dining in Newburyport restaurants, Goodheart said.

“There is an economy that wouldn’t be there without these fish,” he said.

Commercial fishermen said this is the third time in three years they were forced to defend themselves over striped bass fishing. In previous legislative sessions, similar bills never made it out of committee.

“We have done everything asked of us as a commercial fishery,” said Michael Abdow, a Chatham fisherman who fishes both commercially and runs a recreational charter.

Abdow told legislators that the issue had become too political, and that they should stop considering striped bass catch limit legislation year after year.

“You have more important things to do than worry about fish and politics,” Abdow said. “This needs to stop now. Every fishery has its ups and downs. This fishery is regulated.”

Peter Kelly, a charter captain from Marion, said he has been fishing in Massachusetts waters for more than 45 years. He theorized that the warmer water in the past few years was driving more fish further off the coast. That is why recreational fishermen, who cannot afford to fuel boats to go further out, may be seeing less fish, he said.

“As fuel keeps going up, recreational catches are going to keep going down,” Kelly said.

The Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission, which regulates fisheries and has representatives from each East Coast state, allows Massachusetts fishermen to catch two million pounds of striped bass each year - split between recreational and commercial fishers. Commercial fishermen argued they do not catch more than their 1 million pound share.

But backers of catch limits said striped bass are overharvested.

David Ross, a scientist from Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute, said striped bass “is a fishery that needs protection,” and pointed to research that shows the numbers of pounds harvested by recreational fishers has decreased by almost 1 million pounds since 2006.

Along with the commercial fishing industry, other businesses would be hurt by catch limits, a group of local restaurant chefs said. Chefs referred to striped bass as a “superstar fish” that draws people from around the country into Massachusetts seafood restaurants.

Jasper White, from the Summer Shack restaurants located in Cambridge and Boston, said “the chefs support anything that assists our small local fishermen and their families. It is not just about striped bass, it is about sustaining our fishing culture.”

Several legislators testified against the bills, saying they would hurt an already struggling industry.

Rep. Sarah Peake, a Provincetown Democrat, said she believes the issue is not a matter for the state Legislature to decide, but should be left to other agencies with federal authority.

“These agencies have control of allocations and quotas. They have teams of scientists; they have multi-million dollar budgets; and they are engaged in data gathering,” Peake said at the outset of the hearing.

The state Legislature is not equipped to make decisions about a population of fish that swims from the Chesapeake Bay in Maryland to Maine, Peakeone#^&said.

There are many reasons why some recreational fishermen may be catching less fish, she said, including a growing seal population that drives more fish further offshore. She also said recreational fishing is hampered by beaches being closed for longer periods every summer to protect the nesting spots of the piping plover birds.

“None of these reasons why fish aren’t caught off the back beaches have to do with our commercial fishermen,” Peake said.

Peake said she represents more than 300 commercial fishermen who “care very much about conservation efforts.”

“We need to work together to craft solutions so everybody is able to catch the fish that they want to catch,” Peake said.

Senate Minority Leader Bruce Tarr said it was a “dangerous path” to bring fishing management issues to the legislative process. Federal agencies are better suited to make decisions around allocation and conservation, he said.

“If we truly care about conservation, perhaps we ought to look at the biological measures that impact the stock, rather than who is on the other end of the reel,” he said.

Tarr said striped bass fishing began in Massachusetts in the 1600s.

“I hope it won’t end on our watch,” he added.

The bills are (S 337), sponsored by Sen. Stephen Brewer (D-Barre); (S 392), sponsored by Sen. James Timilty (D-Walpole); (H 260) sponsored by Rep. Thomas Stanley (D-Waltham), and (H 1145) sponsored by former Rep. Vincent Pedone.

END
2/28/2012


Serving the working press since 1910

The State House News Service (http://www.statehousenews.com)
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Is there a chance that guy misquoted Patrick? :huh:

just asking

I think that is very possible, Slip, and I try to make that clear. I wasn't there and Mr Rice is not known for levelheaded impartiality (neither am I obviously).

Either way, MSBA has a great opportunity to clarify where recreational fishermen fall on this issue. They would do a service to the recreational community if they took it.....no matter which side of the issue it ended up on. Seems a no brainer given that it would be so simple to do. Everybody already puts their name on their entry ticket and enters the raffle. Just a big sign stating the question, and you write yes or no (or abstain by saying nothing). Would take an hour to count the votes. Would be very revealing as to where feelings lie with this issue.

Anecdotal stories and innuendo is the only thing you've brought to table for the last 2 weeks of this conversation.

I guess that's
only allowed if the person agrees with you.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
The last two weeks? Mostly.

Before that? I've brought up the pathetic YOY numbers relative to the spawning stock size, the very significant risk that Myco is creating with 70+% of the bass in the Chesapeake, the close relationship between widespread reports before the last crash and recent seasons, the widespread slaughter of big bass in the EEZ down south, not to mention the blatant poaching that's met with a slap on the wrist... not much innuendo in any of those points.

Yet the counterargument to any of the above by those blinded by dollars is "there was a huge school off Chatham all season" or "from what I saw, the bass are fine" or my favorite "well that one survey shows that the bass stocks haven't reached critical levels yet."

"the close relationship between widespread reports before the last crash and recent seasons"

Anecdotal.

Which is fine, your entitled to your opinion. But don't rip other people's opinions because they differ from your own.
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"the close relationship between widespread reports before the last crash and recent seasons"

Anecdotal.

Which is fine, your entitled to your opinion. But don't rip other people's opinions because they differ from your own.
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Yup, one of the 5 points I made is anecdotal. But, just like your reply here, non-anecdotal evidence is ignored by those that make money fishing.

Actually Johnny, your EEZ slaughter and poaching points are completely anecdotal as well.

And as for your YOY point, you're disregarding the latest data (you know, the YOY data that showed the second highest # in recorded history) because it doesn't fit your argument.
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And let me be very clear, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with any or all of these points, I'm just sick and tired of some of rhetoric getting tossed around.
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Here is Pat's response from another site about mostly the same issue.

"My comments on behalf of MSBA have been reported in an incomplete manner in a couple posts above. I'm not going to spend a lot of time debating anyone here because I spend my time debating with regulators where it really matters.

I just want to correct or clarify a few things.

Regarding my testimony; last week the MSBA membership voted to oppose the main bill. Mike J above failed to mention that I also commented that our membership was far less united on the issue than last year and that our membership is concerned bout eh health of striped bass. I also made a statement that anyone can twist the numbers and I could but would not as this was a legislative hearing not a scientific one. I also testified that the community at large is split and that a significant and robust coast wide debate is needed, and that debate should be in the management arena where it belongs. The legislators get the fact that the public is concerned about the issue ands wants some action. I helped push that along whether you were paying enough attention to get that point or not, it was done. IF you want SB conservation like we a MSBA want, bring pressure to DMF where it is needed, that is what we are doing.

MSBA members voted to make the comment about public safety being the realm of the MA DPH and should not be a choice but the job of doctors and chemists (thus we are opposed) and I made the comments.

MSBA also voted to support the rec economic language as it is part of the existing MA Environmental Policy Act; at least the parts of it that can be codified. My testimony stated we support the economic reporting and I pointed out that the legislature does already. Very similar language exists in state law. We choose to comment in a way that regulators can digest instead of making non related random off topic points. As was stated by the chair during the hours I stayed, the testimony is for the members of the committee, and that is who I was speaking to, not the audience or the internet forums. Rah Rah Rah doenst save one fish. DMF getting pressured bey legislators instead of wasting time with go nowhere legislation is how to push ASMFC.

Last week MSBA also took a few votes regarding positions on Striped Bass Management. Membership supported a position of both 1 @ 28 & 1@32. The hearing yesterday was on three specific bills and that is why my comments were talking to those points. IF anyone thinks MSBA is done with regard to the current state of striped bas they would be seriously mistaken.

Also for those that might be interested, even if MSBA supported Gamefish in one way or another, we would not support the MA State Legislature's starting to manage fisheries.

SPECIFIC TO Numbskull: MSBA has had a survey booth in at least two of the last four shows and both times the question of whether the individual non member considered MSBA to represent their interest in the government process was asked. We also asked the question on the SF legislation and many others. The results take a lot longer than an hour to compile. It's more like a week of night work for two people to compile a four page survey. MSBA has already planned to do the same at this year's show. We even give away a charter to one of the persons that completes the survey. I hope everyone participates. Democracy works for those that show up and vote.

MSBA has begun a process amongst it's members to determine how to best address Striped Bass conservation in the management arena. We will be talking with other organizations both inside and outside MA. We tend to focus on groups that engage in the community or respond to initial contact. We don;t chase groups that do not engage. MSBA wants to see a reduction in mortality soon and that means before the benchmark assessment. We would clearly support the rollback of the 2006 increase which for MA means 1 @28" and 750K commercial. "


Agree or disagree, you have to respect the work Pat puts in for the sake of the fishery. Reducing mortality and pressuring the DMF to do so are most certainly things that most of us do agree on.

Well said, Pat

Peter Kelly, a charter captain from Marion, said he has been fishing in Massachusetts waters for more than 45 years. He theorized that the warmer water in the past few years was driving more fish further off the coast. That is why recreational fishermen, who cannot afford to fuel boats to go further out, may be seeing less fish, he said.

.[/I]

If the stripers are looking for cooler water filled with bait why aren't we seeing more up here in NH and Maine. Also how come many of the recreatonal fisherman up here are switching to ground fish. Remember there running normally out 20 miles so gas isn't that big an issue.

Thanks to just about no blue fish and a lot less stripers we've had tons of macks, sandeels, silver side and in the fall sea herring.

If the stripers are looking for cooler water filled with bait why aren't we seeing more up here in NH and Maine. Also how come many of the recreatonal fisherman up here are switching to ground fish. Remember there running normally out 20 miles so gas isn't that big an issue.

Thanks to just about no blue fish and a lot less stripers we've had tons of macks, sandeels, silver side and in the fall sea herring.

Maybe that water is to cold ???

Those macks are great for tuna, until the stipers return, I'd shift gears and hang them under a kite for the bigguns.

Good luck and tight lines

I surf fish NH many times last year. Up and down the entire coast. Worst season in years. I even snorkle up there and I never see bunker. The only bait fish I see is those little silver sides....1000s of em and no stripers chasing them.
The range of the striper is shrinking more and more
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