So ,,, took the day off to get a building permit today on framing a gable and roofing it ... had 4 sets of plans and met the building commissioner (nice guy).. Then the inspector came in .. It's been a while I must admit but geeez... I'm not a contractor . I'm doing this as a home owner . Had a dimension missing on the plans ... "What's This ?" whoops missed it ,, height of gable . Quick thinking ,, Well here's the span half of that . times the rise 5" per foot plus the stock thickness angles ,, rough g estimate . Go over to the table and wright it in . Come back ,,"How much is this going to cost ?" Well I'm doing all the work myself but I do have a roofing estimate and I know the stock for framing roughly double that plus the roofing estimate .. Back to the table ,,, He liked a 10K figure ,, ok .. Gives me a paper to fill out as to what dumpster company I was using ?? HUH ?? Well I was going to the Conservation office after this to see if they would allow a dumpster in wetland area .. Good Idea but I need this before I can issue a permit ... OK ... Who's local ? ... Fill out the form with thier name an addy .. Now we good ? No ,, You have to go to the fire dept. to have your plan stamped then bring it all back and I'll revue it,, may take as much as 12 days to get your permit . .. Ok I drive the car off to the Fire Dept. Guys out somewhere .. Hanging around the station ,,, The guy comes in ,, goes over my stuff ,, Wants an upgrade of smokes hard wired .. OK .. get that stamped ... Back to town hall .. Hi ,, Paul here ? he told me to leave this stuff to revue ... OH !!! Pauls out (only there from 8-10) We don't take plans ,, We might lose them . says the secretary ... All of a sudden the commissioner appears . I told him Paul said get this stuff stamped and then he'd revue .. Maybe have a permit in 12 days. 12 days he says ??? I said yea ,, I'd at least like to start doing some demo and see what I have to work with .. ( Shack )... He scribbles his signature on a business card and says ,, "Go ahead and Start your exploratory work " ,,, Still though ... Took the day off ,, Took a chance of my boss getting pissed at me ,, lost a days pay,,, Still no permit .. Great system ... Oh and another thing ,, He gave me a list of inspections when to call him .. Sheathing Inspection ,,, really ? Paul said a lot of guys are blowing the nails through the sheathing with the nail guns .. He wants to inspect sheathing ... This use to be Go time to get the roof on and water tight .. After 39 yrs. in carpentry I don't know anything anymore .. I don't how you guys in your own business absorb the down time of all this ,, or the frustration... :smash::smash::smash:

I had to take parts of 3 days off to get the permit for our mud room. Its a trip.....then after we submitted architect quality drawing with all dimensions and such and 2 inspectors looked them over....we get the rough done, stairs on, inspector shows up....."Ohhhh.....you need a landing at the top of the stairs?"!!!!!! I am like..."WTF!!!!!! I submitted drawing to you in detail......you looked them over before you authorized the permit???? You could not have told me before we began that a simple thing like a landing at the top of the stairs was required????"!!!! He replies......"Oh I don't know what to tell you?"!!!! Thanks F---head! Now I have to remove the stairs, add a landing, scrap a $250 railing kit I can no longer use...buy 3 more kits......added expense.....a friggin heads up would have been nice!!! Its why we pay the fee and submit the drawings....right???? They suck! Frigg them all!:fury:

Every town is different. It is one of the major reasons that I work almost exclusively in my hometown. They know me, and that I overbuild. Additions are scrutininized a lot more than renovations to existing space. But we get thrown a curveball by them on occasion. Part of the job, and why it's expensive. All that time is money.

Ed if it's in Wareham make sure you use the right nails & screws . He is making a builder of a multi unit rip off all the tile & Blue Board in each unit because the first unit he checked had the wrong type . Costing him over 80K to do it.

It could be like VT, no license, inspectors only in Burlington and for commercial life safety. Carpentry is something most any farmer can do! That also makes it tough to be a contractor.

Ed if it's in Wareham make sure you use the right nails & screws . He is making a builder of a multi unit rip off all the tile & Blue Board in each unit because the first unit he checked had the wrong type . Costing him over 80K to do it.

Heard that ,,, Guy used what we've always used .. so they came out with a new screw ,,,, I heard he put that guy out of business.
... I thought Why did this guy single me out ???,, Then I heard him busting someones chops about hurricane clips on a shed ... I'm almost tempted to throw a rubber roof over the old 2x4's and scrap boards that's there .. F it ,,

Guy is Marshfield is a clown, used to be in Hanover and he was such a jerk, they booted him out. Now we are stuck with him.
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Had an inspector like that in Grafton and he stopped in the middle of a dangerous road to come and scream at my brother
about "public safety" and how it was illegal to have a third floor apartment.... blah blah blah

then a motorist not seeing or expecting his car to be parked in such an asinine way
gets totally smashed (totalled) with serious injuries right in front of them...

So my brother Yells at the Jerk "There's your public safety you A$$hole"
and slams the door... the inspector got sued and lost and the town made him retire early
for endangering the citizens for not pulling into the driveway.

That sucks Eddie, sounds like quite the runaround:smash:

It may be a combination of things like town employees with power going to their head taking their misery out on townfolks and contractors that they are not buddy buddy with, or towns budget shortfalls wanting every dime they can get, inspectors justifying their jobs etc. etc.

it sucks biting your tongue sometimes, glad to hear the commisioner threw you a bone, he probably realizes how the other guy was busting your balls. good luck with the rest.
It kinda sucks that they choose now in these difficult times to scrutinize where in the past they may have been lax about some stuff. I see new construction that gets passed that will cause headaches in the future for homeowners, when I see this, I say where is the incentive to bother getting permits for your own house?:wall:

The guy in Easton is a piece of work also.
Middleboro used to be very reasonable but don't know lately, they want every dime they can get also.
I have not pulled a permit since 1997 when I built my addition, had zero problems having dealt with them before when I built my shop. The electric inspector took one look and said I did this myself didn't I? He could tell I knew what i was doing and it was neater than a pro would do.

I stick to furniture work where no permit is needed,(but I have helped my friend with many jobs where permits are a big hassle and slow a bathroom or addition job so only get them when absolutely needed) however, work is harder and harder to come by and I am taking the course to get my license this month if I can afford the 700 bucks. Not looking forward to dealing with inspectors in the future if any contracting work is in my future.:devil2:

If the guy starts being unreasonable Eddie, just file a formal complaint to the town, many homeowners do that sort of thing since they work for the town, it might get easier or not.
good luck

I think inspectors bust balls looking for the contractor/homeowner to give them some "grease" so things go..."smoother"!:uhuh:

And this is why a lot of people I know that are doing renovations on their houses don't bother with the permitting process. They do work a little at a time and keep it all inside the house. Is there a risk? You bet, but screw these towns/inspectors and the impunity they are allowed to operate with. They "require" all sorts of bs so that it looks like they are doing something - Typical government employee.

A few years ago I had all sorts of issues with the Somerset building dept. I converted my single stall garage into living space. Brought the floor up to the hieght of the rest of the house using 2x12s for a 13' span. Busted my aggots for not using bridging. I showed him how EVERY 2x12 had a piece of framing lumber under it, right to the concrete floor below. Not good enough. Kind of makes me laugh, some of these guys have no or minimal building experience but they have all the answers. If the book said put it up-side-down thats what they will make you do.

On the other hand....he said I could move my wood stove and he wouldn't make me get a permit. I got the permit and had it inspected. If the house burned down and I hadn't had proof it was inspected my home owners insurance would not cover me.

I let my liscense go, insurance go and sold most of my contracting tools ( Kept all the woodworking stuff) now I work in a stair shop again and all my headaches are GOONNNEEEE!!!!!

kind of a funny ,, The Building Commissioner was working with a customer when the Building Inspector butted into their conversation and added his 2 cents .. I saw the commissioner looking at him like he was a tool . He hates him . I can tell . The word is the Inspector is book smart ,, school smart .. I bet you he has no hands ,..

I deal with our commisioner exclusively. Can't stand the inspector. He's a PITA who used to be a contractor here in town, and busts our butts over small obscure crap. Says it's the requirement, I say show me in the code book.... Stuff like pinning posts for a farmers porch and hurricane clips for every rafter on same porch. It may cost me a day to get the commisioner to do the inspection, but it is worth it to not have the other the other guy jobsite.

A few years ago I had all sorts of issues with the Somerset building dept. I converted my single stall garage into living space. Brought the floor up to the hieght of the rest of the house using 2x12s for a 13' span. Busted my aggots for not using bridging. I showed him how EVERY 2x12 had a piece of framing lumber under it, right to the concrete floor below. Not good enough. Kind of makes me laugh, some of these guys have no or minimal building experience but they have all the answers. If the book said put it up-side-down thats what they will make you do.
!

I've done that exact job for a client. Used a beam to bi-sect the joists. Height of joists was just an inch more than my inseam.... made it tough to move from bay to bay.... A beam with joist hangers would eliminate the need to bridge with your remaining 6+ foot spans.

I deal with our commisioner exclusively. Can't stand the inspector. He's a PITA who used to be a contractor here in town, and busts our butts over small obscure crap. Says it's the requirement, I say show me in the code book.... Stuff like pinning posts for a farmers porch and hurricane clips for every rafter on same porch. It may cost me a day to get the commisioner to do the inspection, but it is worth it to not have the other the other guy jobsite.

Hmmm ... I didn't know you could request the commissioner over the BI ?

All you can do is ask..... Get on the good side of the office secretary... They can make or break you, especially if they book the appointments

:rotf2::rotf2::rotf2:

Had an inspector like that in Grafton and he stopped in the middle of a dangerous road to come and scream at my brother
about "public safety" and how it was illegal to have a third floor apartment.... blah blah blah

then a motorist not seeing or expecting his car to be parked in such an asinine way
gets totally smashed (totalled) with serious injuries right in front of them...

So my brother Yells at the Jerk "There's your public safety you A$$hole"
and slams the door... the inspector got sued and lost and the town made him retire early
for endangering the citizens for not pulling into the driveway.

Question for you guys and yes I'm sure it varies by state/town etc...

We're thinking of remodeling our basement. It's not that old (early 1990's) but the addition was done by total hacks.

Most of the job is simple, gut, new board, floor, rebuilt a closet etc...

We're going to try and fix the stairs which are really bad. I think we can get the rise/run to code (just barely) by creating some more head room and reinforcing the joists above with a post. It's going to cut into my closet shoe space so you guys can appreciate how much this is going to hurt :fury:

I don't see a way we can get the width to code without major surgery but it's not bad. The opening in the floor is 32"-33".

How much leeway will an inspector give when you're trying to make it better but might not be perfect? I've already drawn up my own plan but haven't pulled a permit.

thanks,

-spence

Spence, first off find out what code the state is using, probably IRC 2009, and ask what other codes are being used. In Mass, a homeowner gets to do his own work and myne issued a permit, but that does not absolve him/her from code requirements. Given the age of your house you should have no problem leaving your stairs alone...provided they were legal when first installed. An inspector cannot require new code requirements on an older building if it was built legally. You really have to look at the code book...perfect example, inspectors require strapping and blocking in some localities here in MA, but the code does not, there is a ratio of thickness to depth for their requirement and a 2X12 does not require blocking. You cannot find any reference to require strapping either.

Having been a building commissioner for awhile I can sympathize with your plight and the other members. Part of the problem is that alot of the inspectors do not have enough field time to use as background in the office, and builders suffer.

If I can help you let me know

Ed

Part of the problem is that alot of the inspectors do not have enough field time to use as background in the office, and builders suffer.

Isn't that the truth!

Like some have said most of these inspectors are book smart. It is now tougher to get your license, you can't just take the course anymore from what I have heard. You now need to actually get hours working, like an electrician. My buddy went through it last year.

As far as a homeowner pulling an electrical permit, it can be done, and the inspector can inspect it, but I was told by someone ion the insurance field that homeowners won't pay even if the inspector signed off on your work, because you need a license in mass.

Here is a good story about people not pulling permits. Don't piss off your neighbors. A friend of mine went to buy a foreclosed 2 family. The bank went to the town hall for some documents for the sale, and were told to talk to the building inspector. The building inspector advised the bank that he had pulled the occupancy permit for the building because the previous owner did extensive renovations without a permit. He wanted to get in and inspect the house. One of two things happened, a neighbor called on him, or the guy called on himself after the bank took the house. Long story short my buddy had to get a licensed guy with insurance, have him fill out a bunch of forms and send proof to the bank. It took awhile but he finally closed on the house, and the work has begun.

In mass an electrical inspector can issue a permit to a licensed electrician
and not have to worry about liability issues. When a home owner gets a wiring permit the inspector is liable as the homeowner has no license and under ma law may not wire. In the community I worked in we did not issue permits to homeowners doing their own wiring. Usually what would happen is the homeowner would get a permit have the work inspected and after the inspector signed off would go to town with all kinds of wiring beyond the permit. Insurance companies do not like unlicensed individuals performing work, it cost them too much.

Contractors need 5 years experience (may have been reduced to 3) in the field, or a combination of schooling and work to sit for the exam, PE's and architects do not need a license as they test to a higher level than the code requires and now there is a continuing ed requirement for contractors. Actually with the way codes are being written today you need the continuing ed just to keep up.

Ed

Sounds like all the fishing laws!
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Like some have said most of these inspectors are book smart. It is now tougher to get your license, you can't just take the course anymore from what I have heard. You now need to actually get hours working, like an electrician. My buddy went through it last year.

As far as a homeowner pulling an electrical permit, it can be done, and the inspector can inspect it, but I was told by someone ion the insurance field that homeowners won't pay even if the inspector signed off on your work, because you need a license in mass.

Here is a good story about people not pulling permits. Don't piss off your neighbors. A friend of mine went to buy a foreclosed 2 family. The bank went to the town hall for some documents for the sale, and were told to talk to the building inspector. The building inspector advised the bank that he had pulled the occupancy permit for the building because the previous owner did extensive renovations without a permit. He wanted to get in and inspect the house. One of two things happened, a neighbor called on him, or the guy called on himself after the bank took the house. Long story short my buddy had to get a licensed guy with insurance, have him fill out a bunch of forms and send proof to the bank. It took awhile but he finally closed on the house, and the work has begun.

That is why I always recommend to people whether acquiring a commercial or residential property as part of the P&S make it a stipulation that a Certificate of Occupancy be transferred with the sale. Fire Departments are Classic for holding up occupancy based on a previous owners Misdoings. I had a customer buy a building and renovate one third of the space for their use it took them months and thousnds to repair pre existing issues that would have been the prior owners issue if they had gotten a certificate with the title transfer.
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very informative, thanks

My boss lives out in Ohio, he wanted to renovate a 1/2 bath on his first floor. He hired someone to do the work but he did the demo himself. When he pulled the sheet rock off he couldn't believe what was done by the previous owner. 2 electrical sockets buried inside the wall connect by an extension cord. Scary to think what kind of work is buried behind the walls of a house.

Actually as far being sure of what your getting at the time of sale the p&s should require all the permits be in hand, that way when illegal work is uncovered the responsibility or liability lies with the previous owner and could help you with the building inspector when they are uncovered. Occupancy is the statement by the BI that the house conformed to all the requirements both state and local at the time. Occupancy at least in residential is seldom revoked, compliance is always foremost, therefore asking for the permits, checking for work beyond if any is the best bet.

I guess (but I don't agree) some feel that's it their house, they pay taxes and will do what they want, when they want, and how they want. The problem is that someday they sell the house to you. Compliance begins with at the individual level and I know that it can be a real pain getting all the paper work done prior to working. In our court case prone society do you really want to risk it.

Ed

How does that apply to a dwelling/property that is being sold as is...

maybe as is doesn't require an In place occupancy permit to acknowlege that the property needs an upgrade(s)...?

Yet some people want to move into a fixer -upper and remodel while they live there for convenience into a single room (probably illegal)

I'm sure all the local bylaws prevail but would welcome your comments
in that situation

. Scary to think what kind of work is buried behind the walls of a house.

i was surprised to find a wall full of oak leaves all lying flat (placed)
and also old farmer cover alls that were rolled up and stuffed in there.
(but no insulation)

newspaper dated 1919 were also found.....
work halted reading about all the cheap stuff for sale....lol , in the classified section :uhuh:

I think buying a house "as is" is asking for trouble. The cases I am personally familiar with did not go well for the new owner...long story short...cost way more than the "deal" they got. Here in Ma and other states there is no statute of limitations on wrong or illegal work, even if you have permission from the BI. Anyone can ask to see and get copies of the permits issued (public record) and if there is any discrepancy between the permits and the actual conditions a red flag should go up. As the new owner without permits you will be on the hook. In addition, in the event of an insurance loss, the homeowners policy will be terminated because of non permitted work and the homeowner is out the monies he could have collected. As probably the largest purchase someone makes I think prudence should prevail.
As for the illegal work and later discovered, the BI will use the code in effect at the time of violation or the building date of the home if he is inclined to do so (break here for the new owner) and have the violation fixed to that code. It is usually handled this way because the newer codes have changed some much that their adherence could cause undue hardship fore the contractor or homeowner.

The other problem here that I see from some of the complaints above is the feeling that all the regulations and procedures take to much time.
I have been building since 1968 and am 64 now and have seem a tremendous change in the whole permitting process. Used to be the BI knew you and that was that, especially if you were a "townie". Most of those guys were carpenters themselves and knew what was up. You never used a structural engineer, worried about load paths, because there were implied standards (and written codes back to 1908 if I remember correctly) . Everyone new who was good and who was not, and people listened to experience and used what others had learned.

Today new ball game, BI is a career path (not a criticism) and the code is the rule not the exception. Most of all the old guys are gone and along with went the old way of building. The process we have today establishes a paper trail to protect all that are involved.

Just for chuckles look up the Code of Hammurabi
The Secrets of the Code. | Architecture for Humanity (http://architectureforhumanity.org/node/995)

sorry for the length

Ed

Sorry for not fully answering your question (senior moment). The occupancy for a dwelling will remain intack at the time of sale unless the town has a policy of property inspection (other than the FD) at the time of sale. Most BI's stay out of the sale end of a property unless they see something requiring immediate attention. In the cases I have handled, usually there was no problem with someone moving in provided they didn't gut the place. Some level of habitability has to be preserved. To be honest with you, with the way present codes are structured, you would be much better do a remodel room by room. I say this because today's code ICC Existing Building Code will prevail and the amount of work that has to be performed for compliance depends on one of the three levels of reconstruction perfromed, if you hit level 3 (guttting entire structure)compliance with the IRC, Intn'l Mechanical, plumbing, elect and Enery Code (strecth code may apply here) will be required. Doing a kitchen will not cause a level three but you may have some plumbing and electrical issues. If any of the exposed framing is insufficient it will have to addressed, any new work will have to comply with 2009 IRC prescriptively or a structural engineer can desig what you need. I f you have other specific questions give me a buzz pm me for #

is why i asked

that have around 10 to 80 acres
usually an old barn (desired)
and some sort of garage
or work area....

some are Vintage 1850 houses...
been there done that... not again!

some allot newer than that...
but sometimes the atmosphere is way
to compelling and you start thinking about it.

I like projects but not servitude to a lost cause.

Between EPA lead RRP and the rest of the old house issues (elec, mech, insulation, not even dealing with structural) more and more houses are becoming teardowns. You can't save enough to make it worthwhile to keep a old house. Pretty sad.
And since I live and work for the most part in Vermont where we don't have inspectors, it is not their fault.