Can anyone point me to the colonial law that allows fishing, fowling, and navigation between high andlow water marks? Mass reg number and section would be helpful. I need to "straighten out" a local homeowner........

Google: Mass DEP chapter 91 and you will get your info. Good Luck.

Another state site is the Massachusetts office of coastal zone management. They have a page related to Public Rights.

Can anyone point me to the colonial law that allows fishing, fowling, and navigation between high andlow water marks? Mass reg number and section would be helpful. I need to "straighten out" a local homeowner........

i think i know who you are talking about...and it would be great to 'explain' to him the law...i have on several occasions...

Public Rights Along the Shoreline - Fact Sheet (http://www.mass.gov/czm/shorelinepublicaccess.htm)

Chapter 91, The Massachusetts Public Waterfront Act | Water, Wastewater & Wetlands | MassDEP (http://www.mass.gov/dep/water/resources/about01.htm)

These should get you where you need to be

This will help too

http://www.insanesoccer.com/games/files/thefinger.jpg
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Print it out and send it to him via registered mail - proof of delivery.

DZ

Good post and links, this is top notch bathroom reading material -

(link to info below (http://www.mass.gov/czm/shorelinepublicaccess.htm))

Public Rights Along the Shoreline
Coastal managers are often asked, "Who owns the sea and shore?" If you have been curious, or perhaps a bit confused about what rights the public has along the shoreline, here's a brief primer on waterfront property law.

Ownership of Tidelands
"Tideland" is the legal term for all land beneath the waters of the ocean, including lands that are always submerged as well as those in the intertidal area (i.e., between the high and low tide marks). In every coastal state, the use of tidelands is governed by a concept in property law known as the Public Trust Doctrine, which dates back centuries to ancient Roman law. The doctrine states that all rights in tidelands and the water itself are held by the state "in trust" for the benefit of the public. In most states, this means that public ownership begins at the high water mark.

The Massachusetts Bay Colony originally followed this rule, until its legislators decided to transfer ownership of certain tidelands to coastal landowners, in order to encourage private wharf construction on these so-called "intertidal flats." This general land grant was accomplished by the Colonial Ordinances of 1641-47, which in effect moved the line between public and private property to the low water mark, but not farther seaward of the high water mark than "100 rods," or 1,650 feet. This intertidal area (now called "private tidelands") is presumed to belong to the upland property owner, unless legal documentation proves otherwise for a given parcel (as is true in certain segments of Provincetown, for example).

Although the Colonial Ordinance changed the ownership of most intertidal flats from public to private, it did not transfer all property rights originally held in trust by the state. For one thing, no rights to the water itself (as distinct from the underlying lands) were relinquished by the Ordinance. Moreover, the law specifically reserved for the public the right to continue to use private tidelands for three purposes-fishing, fowling, and navigation.

Scope of Public and Private Rights
Over the years, Massachusetts courts have ruled that the scope of activities on private tidelands covered by the reserved public rights of fishing, fowling, and navigation is broad, and includes all of their "natural derivatives." For example:


The right to fish includes the right to seek or take any fish, shellfish, or floating marine plants, from a vessel or on foot;
The right to navigate includes the right to conduct any activity involving the movement of a boat, vessel, float, or other watercraft, as well as the transport of people and materials and related loading and unloading activity; and
The right to fowl includes the right to hunt birds for sport as well as sustenance. (The Massachusetts Attorney General takes the position that the right of fowling also includes other ways that birds can be "used," such as birdwatching, but also notes that this issue has not yet been addressed by the courts.)
Clearly, these rights cover a variety of both old and new activities that many people enjoy, such as surfcasting and windsurfing. Still, the courts have imposed some limits. The right of fishing, for example, does not allow the use of structures for aquaculture or the taking of plant debris washed up on the beach. Also, courts have made it clear that the public right to use this area does not include the right to simply stroll, sunbathe, or otherwise engage in recreation unrelated to fishing, fowling, or navigation. Without permission from the landowner, such general recreation is trespassing. There is only one narrow exception to this rule-because there are no private property rights in the water itself, the public is allowed to swim in the intertidal zone provided the swimmer does not touch the private land underneath or use it to enter or leave the water.

The distinction between public and private rights is much simpler on either side of the intertidal zone, i.e. on submerged lands to the seaward side and on the dry shore to the landward side. Except on filled tidelands (which is another story altogether), all rights to use the area above the high water mark generally belong to the upland property owner, and public access on private land can occur only with permission. On the other hand, below the low water (or 100 rod) mark, the public is almost always within its rights to walk, swim, or enjoy other recreational activity. With very few exceptions, these tidelands are still state property.

Respecting the Rights of Others
Respecting the rights of others-private property rights as well as public access and use rights-is an important part of visiting the coast. To prevent infringements on everyone's rights, it may be helpful to follow these guidelines. To help keep the peace, the visiting public should be careful not to trespass or otherwise infringe on the privacy of shorefront property owners, and should minimize their impact on the environment. Likewise, in posting signs and taking other steps to identify their private property, coastal landowners should not attempt to discourage the public from using the water's edge to the full extent allowable by law. In short, mutual respect is the key to meaningful coastal access for everyone.

"This will help too

http://www.insanesoccer.com/games/files/thefinger.jpg
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device[/QUOTE]"

LMAO!

Mackeral Man,

Let me know who it is, i'll go out of my way to get a discussion with him. Maybe we take 5-10 guys and head over there and fish every day in front of "his" view. Peaceful reinforcment of our rights.

It's not "My Buddy" is it?

Mackeral Man,

Let me know who it is, i'll go out of my way to get a discussion with him. Maybe we take 5-10 guys and head over there and fish every day in front of "his" view. Peaceful reinforcment of our rights.

i think you know who it is...

Maybe we take 5-10 guys and head over there and fish every day in front of "his" view. Peaceful reinforcment of our rights.

Just tell me when...I'm off all week :hihi:

Isn't it illegal in MA to harass a fisherman who is legally fishing? I know that's the case in some other states.

Wait, now this guy is giving Ross a hard time? :fury:

The guy is very perceptive, if he see's it is a guy that surf fishes all the time, he leaves them alone. Since ross stopped surfishing locally last year, and is pretty much a full time bait fishermen, the guy probably thought he was dealing with an out of towner. Ross, take the bobber and treble hook off your rod and snap on a plug and i bet he leaves you alone.

:D

yeah sure, I once saw him kick a guy out of there who was reeling in a spinning rod upside down, but he left the guy with the van stall alone! :rotflmao:

Seriously though, this guy is a problem...

I've been through this a few times and I always win. Your best bet though is not to be a #^&#^&#^&#^&. (I've tried and almost had to punch an old man!)

But, I have handed the laws over to them before and then I just say "If you want to pursue this further call the police, other than that I'll be down there fishing."

They never want to pursue it further. :hihi:

Bet he doesn't like wind turbines either.

by the bamboo, right? if so its a little tricky there because the rocks are so high, access to the intertidal zone is difficult. need to make sure you can get to it without stepping foot on his property. does anyone know the exact limits of the public access? does it extend all the way to the water? how wide? etc.

if i'm thinking of the wrong area, just ignore me.

Across the causeway, bear right, after the first house on right by the chocolate drops, It's the guy in the white house across the street!!!!!! Done work on the house, given them fillets, and he's still a #^&#^&#^&#^&...


As for you Greg....I see you have been turned to the true corinthian form of fishing by doc. Or is it too many boat issues in your fleet that has you in the surf? You won't see trebles in my livies.... that is for comms. You taught me that method. :rotf2:

wow, and in that case you can easily prove that you can access that area from the public access down the street without passing over private property

Here is what I have been able to find.


Public Rights Along the Shoreline - Fact Sheet (http://www.mass.gov/czm/shorelinepublicaccess.htm)

Coast Guide Home Page (http://www.mass.gov/czm/coastguide/index.htm)

by the bamboo, right? if so its a little tricky there because the rocks are so high, access to the intertidal zone is difficult. need to make sure you can get to it without stepping foot on his property. does anyone know the exact limits of the public access? does it extend all the way to the water? how wide? etc.

if i'm thinking of the wrong area, just ignore me.

That's "My Buddy".....

Ok I'll ask what I think is an associated question, as I've been harrassed by Westport River Yaught club members for fishing around their docks and even had the harbormaster come over to suggest I needed to keep my boat and fishing away from them. My response to him was nobody owns that water around the docks, but so as to not get into a battle I left.

Ok I'll ask what I think is an associated question, as I've been harrassed by Westport River Yaught club members for fishing around their docks and even had the harbormaster come over to suggest I needed to keep my boat and fishing away from them. My response to him was nobody owns that water around the docks, but so as to not get into a battle I left.

That's a load of crap too, Bob. Print out the above, as I did, and highlight it for them..... Have copies ready to deliver in my glovebox. I would have it in hand to discuss with the habormaster as well.....The Public Trust Doctrine states that all rights in the tidelands and the water itself are held by the state "in trust" for the benefit of the public......

Isn't it illegal in MA to harass a fisherman who is legally fishing? I know that's the case in some other states.


It is illegal to harass anyone endeavouring in any lawful purpose.

The only reason we regained or have any sway now in what Nightfighter is having issues with is because Billy Bulger changed the law from what it was giving the landowner all the options and none to the regular guy.

The only issue should be what is the intertidal zone where you are fishing. Some understand that if you are to be truly legal fishing on the beach in front of someones house you must be standing in the water, and notr on dry sand, and you should be following the tide down.

Case in point, a guy named Frantz Guest stopped in front of Jim Belushi's house while yakking. He was tired. Was just going to sit there for a few minutes. Part of his yak was in the water and he was sitting on the yak tha was on dry sand. Belushi walks over with wife and another couple. Orders Mr. Gest to leave. Guest refuses. Belushi call W. Tisbury police. Guest refuses to move for W. Tisbury police. Guest gets arrest for tresspassing. Cn yo just imagine to gloat of Belushi face as Guest was being led away in cuffs. Jury finds Mr. Guest not guilt in a big f you to Jim Belushi and all his buddies.

yeah that's even more egregious, if you are in the water there is not even a debate! Screw them!

I would throw a 4oz hopkins at them! JUST KIDDING, that is just a shout out to Larry!

I have run into this in Wareham. Last time there with witnesses, Bill and Juls, guy drive at me and says he is going to call the cops. I said your talking to one #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& now go ahead and call who you want. He drove off.

Marblehead police report Sunday July 29

1:51 p.m., a resident of Ocean Avenue reported someone "on his beach." The people left the beach on their own.



:smash:I want to beat this guy.....but will settle for putting the print out of the law in his face, while accompanied by the police.......

Technically your feet really need to be below the high water line. (ie wet) And you can not trespass across someones property to get to that spot, most of the time this is the real problem, the fellow walked across his yard to get to the spot. He also is probably parked his car illegally as well. As long as you are in the water with feet wet you probably have some thin legal grounds ( that colonial law is kind of dusty and to be honest, is not enforced by the local police and since many of the waterfront land owners actually pay taxes on land that is underwater in many cases, they claim that it belongs to them and they have some rights) You can argue this forever and I am on your side...I think if you are in the water, and you did not trespass and did not park illegally you can stand there but that is me.

That said, if you floated a garbage scow in front of a waterfront land owners property and dropped anchor for a while, I think the guy would get pissed and have you removed by some means and you would be arrested and removed. You may be right but you will be removed.

Bottom line is it is better not to fight these battles, you generally will not win and even if you do technically "win", you will be removed, arrested or hassled to the point where you don't enjoy fishing anymore.

Just go late at night, don't trespass and avoid contact with all people. That is what I do and so far I have not gotten involved with the law or in conflict with others. Causing a problem, will lead to other problems, even if you are technically right.