State looking into allowing the spear fishing of stripers....fish always look bigger in the water....if the kill is less then 28 inches they just going to dump it to the bottom....bad enough that it happens in the tuna fishing world after fighting one and harpooning finding out it is to small it goes to the bottom

Not as bad as a fly fisherman catching and releasing 40 schoolies in a tide... How many fish die from him???
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Spearfishing is nowhere near as easy as those who have never done it think it is. If it was, then everyone would be doing and they would be shooting tons and tons of nothign but huge fish. Just like in rod and reel fishing, there are bad eggs that will fish irresponsibly but this is not the majority of the fishery. Spearfihsing has far less by catch and wasteful killing, overall, than RnR. Think about it, there is no such thing as catch and release spearfishing. Do you also oppose hunting with a gun? It is ignorant to think that RnR fishermen don't wastefully kill fish of all types. Even the most careful catch and release rod and reeler kills fish, they just don’t like to or are unwilling to admit as such.

Well said Toby
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Not as bad as a fly fisherman catching and releasing 40 schoolies in a tide... How many fish die from him???
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would not know about catching 40 schoolies since I only have targeted big fish with a flyrod

But U could probably compare it to a shore striper forever fisherman fishing from shore and bouncing an under sized striper off the rocks to get it back in the water....give it an aspiran

I don't have anything against spear fishing. I would guess most are responsible people. But i have to say as a fly fisherman I don't think I've ever killed one of the dozens of stripers I've hooked and landed. I think it's similar to plugs in that you almost always get them at the edge of the mouth. I've never gut hooked a striper on the fly. Maybe if you were fishing too light tackle and exhausted them you could kill them.

would not know about catching 40 schoolies since I only have targeted big fish with a flyrod

But U could probably compare it to a shore striper forever fisherman fishing from shore and bouncing an under sized striper off the rocks to get it back in the water....give it an aspiran

yes.. that was my point. Or the cocohoe minnow crowd at the west wall in the spring... I used to do it, so i am no angel.

Fishing is a tough sport to justify when we break down the ethics behind it.. Especially catch and release.

Toby nailed it...this is a whole lot harder than it might appear, and there are far fewer guys doing it than yuo might guess. I used to spearfish a lot. If done correctly, as intended, there is zero wasted bycatch. I will admit that a couple of times I shot fish that I swore were keepers but turned out not to be. I kept them for the grill.

This won't put any measurable dent in the population. It has nowhere near the impact of rod and reel fishing.

I don't have anything against spear fishing. I would guess most are responsible people. But i have to say as a fly fisherman I don't think I've ever killed one of the dozens of stripers I've hooked and landed. I think it's similar to plugs in that you almost always get them at the edge of the mouth. I've never gut hooked a striper on the fly. Maybe if you were fishing too light tackle and exhausted them you could kill them.

You don't think you have killed any, but I would wager any amount of money that at least a few of them have perished. It is not always about visible damage. There are other stresses on their body that can lead to death as being hooked, fought, handled and released is not a natrually occurring event for a fish. I forget the numbers exactly, but in several studies I was reading not too long ago on S-B release mortalty the average rate is somewhere between 10% and 30% even under the best of situations. The studies covered J-hooks, circle hooks, lures, etc... and brokes the findings down as such. Eitehr way, some fish died.
I am not trying to be a jerk or pick on anyone, I just want to show that no matter what we do, there are going to be a few dead fish left over. The only way to avoid it is to stop fishing all together. End of story.

yes.. that was my point. Or the cocohoe minnow crowd at the west wall in the spring... I used to do it, so i am no angel.

Fishing is a tough sport to justify when we break down the ethics behind it.. Especially catch and release.

Exactly, I mean if we were all really THAT worried about the fish, we wouldn't be fishing at all.

One of the bigger issues might be if they want to spearfish bass commercially. That would set off a debate with Mass R&R comm guys for sure. Here in Rhody it has come up with various species.

DZ

Not as bad as a fly fisherman catching and releasing 40 schoolies in a tide... How many fish die from him???
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Probably none. The release mortality for small fish that are lip hooked is very, very low.

The issue that alarms me regarding spear fishing is spot monopolization. A guy puts out a dive flag and you have to stay 100yds away by law. I can see that being a very serious problem in places like the Elizabeth islands where the very best spots are well known and heavily fished.

Toby, as editor of a fishing magazine it would help all of us if you had better information on C&R mortality for striped bass.
Here are some articles.

Striped Bass Catch-and-Release Mortality Study | Careful Catch Maryland (http://catch.synergyinteractive.com/2011/04/striped-bass-catch-and-release-mortality-study/)

http://www.laterallineco.com/fishing_journal/Diodati_Richards_1996.pdf

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/fisherycenter/pdfs/Millardetal2005.pdf




I believe the average C&R mortality is 8-9%. That includes lots of badly hooked and handled fish. The lower end for lip hooked non-bleeding fish is more like 2-3 % although it rises quickly in warm water.
Gut hooking fish also raises mortality quite a bit, and guys fishing bait with J hooks catching larger fish creates mortality rates closer to 20% (or higher in deep summer when waters are warm).

I don't have anything against spear fishing. I would guess most are responsible people. But i have to say as a fly fisherman I don't think I've ever killed one of the dozens of stripers I've hooked and landed. I think it's similar to plugs in that you almost always get them at the edge of the mouth. I've never gut hooked a striper on the fly. Maybe if you were fishing too light tackle and exhausted them you could kill them.

"i have to say as a fly fisherman I don't think I've ever killed one of the dozens of stripers I've hooked and landed"

As a statistician, I would bet any amount of money, against any odds you feel like giving me, that you are wrong. I'm not saying you aren't being careful. I'm just saying that the data suggests that you can lip-hook fish with barbless hooks, never touch the fish with your bare hands, get it back to teh water as quickly and gently as possible, and a 0% mortality rate is not possible. It's just not possible.

If I'm spearfishing and I decide not to shoot a fish...now that is a guaranteed 100% survival rate for that fish. I also can't kill any other species by accident...I can harvest my target species 100% of the time, with no chance of injuring another type of fish, until my eyesight (or brains) start to deteriorate, that is.

Makes me want to get out my gear...been a long time.

Furthermore, I can target a certain slot size when spearfishing, allowing me to leave alone any large fish that are likely to be females of reproductive age. I target fish for the grill, which to me, the ideal is a small keeper, not a trophy. Trophy fish, in my extremely limited experience (more limited than I'd like it to be!), don't taste nearly as good.

Spearfisherman have the luxury of being way, way more selective than a rod & reel guy. You pick the individual fish to kill, and necessarily don't harm anything else.

No comparison.

Now, someone mentioned the confrontations over a popular spot, and that's a real issue, and I have seen, and participated in, more than a few heated discussions on the subject. I spearfish, and I also boat fish. I can see both sides of the argument. I don't know what you do, except to say that whoever gets there first, has dibs on the spot. I can't see why a R&R guy has any more or less claim to a spot than a spearfisherman.

" I can't see why a R&R guy has any more or less claim to a spot than a spearfisherman.

That might hold if there was a law a R&R guy couldn't come within 100 yds of another R&R guy, but that is not the case. A R&R guy can anchor on a prime spot, but that is not going to stop other guys trolling or casting from fishing up to and past him. A diver sets up and you either go somewhere else or break the law. Big difference.

There are places along the Elizabeth's, such as the south side of Pasque, where if 2-3 divers set up (and they will since that is where the fish are) during the commercial season or the derby one helluva a lot of other fishermen are going to be shut out and pissed about it.

Truth is divers by law occupy a bigger footprint on the best spots than R&R fishermen, and that is unfair.

I understand both sides better than anyone. No good will come of this.

There are places along the Elizabeth's, such as the south side of Pasque, where if 2-3 divers set up (and they will since that is where the fish are) during the commercial season or the derby one helluva a lot of other fishermen are going to be shut out and pissed about it.

It could get very ugly very quickly.

That might hold if there was a law a R&R guy couldn't come within 100 yds of another R&R guy, but that is not the case. A R&R guy can anchor on a prime spot, but that is not going to stop other guys trolling or casting from fishing up to and past him. A diver sets up and you either go somewhere else or break the law. Big difference.

There are places along the Elizabeth's, such as the south side of Pasque, where if 2-3 divers set up (and they will since that is where the fish are) during the commercial season or the derby one helluva a lot of other fishermen are going to be shut out and pissed about it.

Truth is divers by law occupy a bigger footprint on the best spots than R&R fishermen, and that is unfair.

It's not unfair to the diver, who (1) needs to have some space for safety, and (2) pays taxes to the state and feds just like the boater, and thus has the same exact rights to pursue his hobby.

Maybe you designate some spots as R&R only, and certain spots are open to spearfishermen.

How about a guy who has a huge boat? He takes up more space than a guy with a 16-footer, and I don't recall seeing spots that were off-limits to boats above a certain size.

I hear what you're saying. I like to hike, and there are some trails that I have to share with guys on ATV's. I don't like the danger posed to my kids and dogs, but who am I to tell them they can't enjoy the resource as they like to, which is what I am also doing?

When I use to drive,I hand fed bass,grabbed their tails,pat them on the back...they could have cared less..easy target at arms lenght.Could have taped their lenght if I carried a cloth tape with me...spear one in the water..blood goes in the water..sharks in the water...pick your spots wisely if your going to be dragging bloody fish behind you.

Toby, as editor of a fishing magazine it would help all of us if you had better information on C&R mortality for striped bass.
Here are some articles.

Striped Bass Catch-and-Release Mortality Study | Careful Catch Maryland (http://catch.synergyinteractive.com/2011/04/striped-bass-catch-and-release-mortality-study/)

http://www.laterallineco.com/fishing_journal/Diodati_Richards_1996.pdf

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/fisherycenter/pdfs/Millardetal2005.pdf




I believe the average C&R mortality is 8-9%. That includes lots of badly hooked and handled fish. The lower end for lip hooked non-bleeding fish is more like 2-3 % although it rises quickly in warm water.
Gut hooking fish also raises mortality quite a bit, and guys fishing bait with J hooks catching larger fish creates mortality rates closer to 20% (or higher in deep summer when waters are warm).

these were the numbers that I found as well when I did some research last year after becoming a bit dismayed at the circus at some of the spots where schoolies were being hauled in by the hundreds daily and in every sort of manner.....oddly, some of the folks attending the circus and widely reporting and broadcasting the "great fishing" were the same folks that spent the summer bellyaching about the decline of the striper population because they didn't happen to be plentiful in their regular haunts....after seeing and hearing claimed totals of fish for the year in the several hundreds I began to wonder about who was actually doing what damage....you can do the math..

I've seen more spearfishing guys this year than in previous years but I think their numbers are still pretty limited as well as their range and ability to operate in rough conditions or at night when I'd rather be fishing...not sure why they want to make it a commercial endeavour though...when I have encountered them, I've usually been there first and have noticed that they seem to have little regard for the shore fisherman, maybe I need a flag or something:uhuh:

Can't wait until the bite's on at Scorton and some diver pulls into the middle of 60 boats and demands his 100 yds of space.

I'll have to get in line to explain the error of his intentions.
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The original poster is absolutely correct. Everything underwater looks 20% larger than it actually is. I will never forget spearfishing tautog when I was in high school and I got out of the water so excited about the "big" fish I caught only to see that it was actually pretty small. That would be a bad scenario for the striped bass.

I would say that most fish that are returned to the water with a minute or so of venting are going to live. I especially doubt that someone that fly fishes would be careless enough to kill a schoolie. Whenever someone says this I always wonder why I don't see dead fish just floating all over the place? Its because they live!!

Toby, as editor of a fishing magazine it would help all of us if you had better information on C&R mortality for striped bass.

My bad, I said I read something recently and recalled those numbers. I poked around and found this right from your second link. While it does reference tests conducted in freshwater, I knew I didn't make up the numbers. Either way, there is simply NO ARGUING that C&R causes mortatlity to some degree and that was more my point. I own a speargun, but have never once shot or shot at a SB. I figure I can take them pretty much any time I want with RnR, so I have no need to shoot them. Blackfish on the other hand...

Despite the importance of the striped bass recreational fishery in coastal waters (Richards and Deuel 1987), little is known about survival of caught and released striped bass in saline environments. In freshwater, Harrell (1988) estimated the hooking mortality of striped bass to average 15.6% for fish taken on artificial lures and 30.7% for fish taken on natural baits. Hysmith et al. (1993), also working in freshwater, found mortality of striped bass to be significantly related to fish length, season, and bait type. There was a positive relation between hooking mortality and lengthclass. Overall, hooking mortality was 38% but was higher when live baits were used (58%) and was higher in summer (47%) than winter (13%). Experiments on striped bass in brackish-water environments suggest that salinity may have an important ameliorating effect on hooking mortality (RMC, Inc. 1990). However, there have been no previous studies of striped bass hooking mortality in saline environments.

Our estimates of striped bass hooking mortality (3-26%, 9% overall) are lower than others reported for striped bass: 36% in summer (Harrell 1988), 47% in summer (Hysmith et al. 1993). However, our study differed in several respects. Perhaps most importantly, both earlier studies were conducted in freshwater, whereas ours was in a high-salinity environment (mean salinity, 3 \%o). Although striped bass are euryhaline, freshwater may pose osmotic challenges that add to the stress of capture. In a 1990 study, RMC Inc. (1990) found that catch-and-release mortality of striped bass caught on artificial lures ("buck-tails") depended on salinity of 0-8 ppt. Hooking mortality of fish less than 46 cm at the lower-salinity sites (0-4%c) averaged 34%, but it was only 1% at the 8%o site.

Can't wait until the bite's on ... and some diver pulls into the middle of 60 boats and demands his 100 yds of space.
]

Try SW Ledge this August and a couple of yahoos come out on their jet skis with their dive flag on it. Untended, drifting jet ski with flag. Where's the diver? They were doing this for days.

Tell me these guys ate all of those fish? My a$$. I wonder what endorsement they had on their license (Not!)?

Maybe they should re visit beach seining and drop the size limit to 16" no bag limit while they are at it.... conservation is supposed to move foreward.. not backward.. if they want to revisit something sporting.. mandate circle and barbless hooks..

I have heard that research before about C&R, I just really wish I could see first hand how they tracked that, so curious. I am sure there are some smart and responsible spear fishermen out there, but I personally just think that spear fishing a fish with a size limit is not something that should be done, way to hard to be right underwater on size.

We all kill some fish, its part of it. The % is debatable, but there is a cost to what we do, and we just have to accept it. I think its countered in large part by the efforts of sport fisherman to protect the resources from over fishing by commercial interests. If it wasn't for sport fisherman, stripers would likely be extinct and this argument would not be happening.

Personally, I have no issue with spearfishing. However, I really only fish from shore at night, so I do not think it will effect me. I can see how others may have a differing view on that.

As far as impact on the fishery, however, I think it will be negligable at most. There will be such a small number of participants compared to R&R. And if they are allowed to fish commercially, it will have no impact because they'll be included in the quota, so the total impact will be the same.

I think this is just a case of people thinking that what they do is the noble and correct method, and that others are wrong because they are different.

I think this is just a case of people thinking that what they do is the noble and correct method, and that others are wrong because they are different.

Bingo!

I think this is just a case of people thinking that what they do is the noble and correct method, and that others are wrong because they are different.

Exactly. Too often we are unwilling to accept other's views or ways of getting to the same end as ok as we do not participate in that activity. This is why fly guys often come across as elitists, bait guys as meat heads, pluggers as purists, conservationists as extremists and so on. Several examples right here in this thread to support it.

spearfishing for bass is only going to benifit a very few selective people..the fish they kill wont amount to anything compared to some of the damage that is done during the early spring in the canal alone ... my point is why....why add another method of killing... unlles s the fish stocks are in such good shape that we feel the need to harvest more... thus my comment on opening the beach seines and dropping the size limit ( which I said to be a wise @$$) ... either way.. it's not going to effect what I do... except maybe go back to comercial fishing.

I guess everyone is entitled to the water, we all have that right, no one party or interest should be able to lay claim to it. I've run from Falmouth to the Vineyard to fish a wreck only to find I can't get near it with a dive boat anchored up right on top.

It's not just the dive boats causing me grief, I like to drift and jig for black sea bass or fluke in season and too many times I've had commercial's or rec's. come right in on top of my drift line and drop a hook without so much as a mind if I anchor up here. Doesn't seem to matter to them how small the spot is.

Then there are the lobsterman, oh my god there is one off devils bridge near Gay head that will damn near board your boat if you so much as drop a jig near his precious gear. He is a friggen lunitic.

God help you if your jigging bait near the yaught clubs boat slips, or going after stripers hanging there early spring, the harbormaster will be on you in short order, trying to enforce rules that don't apply.

How many of us have had a school of stripers or albies put down, because of idiots running and gunnig.

How many among us have had their lines cut by yahoos cutting across your lines no matter how loudly you yelled or how wildly you waved your arms.

Yup sometime those relaxing days of fishing are more like stress filled work days, with some of the BS you have to deal with.

Yep MA will pass spearfishing for bass .................&&& then all B/S when .they see the lastest YOY numbers .

Catch them large while you can ><><><><><><.:fishin:

It's good to see that my kill rate while fly fishing for stripers has gone from 25% to 2% just in the course of this thread.

Interesting situation in NY state where as far as I can tell it's not really clear whether spearfishing for stripers is actually legal or illegal. But it is being done.

What's the law in RI?

I can see big trouble if it becomes legal here in massachusetts, in a number of ways.

Steve

Interesting situation in NY state where as far as I can tell it's not really clear whether spearfishing for stripers is actually legal or illegal. But it is being done.

What's the law in RI?

I can see big trouble if it becomes legal here in massachusetts, in a number of ways.

Steve

It's legal in RI. I used to do a ton of boat fishing in RI before I had kids, both rod-n-reel and spearfishing. I don't have any secret spots, I went to the most popular places. I haven't seen any major problems, but some minor arguments.

Nothing a little courtesy can't fix, combined with admitting that others have just as much a right to the resource as I do, even if they go about it differently. If I want to jig on a rock and there is a diver there, too bad for me. If I want to spearfish and there's a rod-n-reeler near where I'd like to hunt, too bad for me.

It's not that hard. But based on my limited observations, I sense a lot of people feel they are more entitled to others, and that their way i sthe preferred way.

Most of the problems I saw occurred when R&R guys crowded spearfishermen who were there first. I have never seen spearfishermen attempt to elbow their way in between a bunch of R&R guys, I would never do it out of safety for myself. I'm sure it happens, though.

Truthfully, using the argument that spear fishermen are going to shoot anything close and sink short fish is not fair. Are there a minute amount of guys with total disrespect for the species? Absolutely. But, there are 100 times as many rod and reel guys with the same disrespect as there are spear fishermen. To categorize all spear fishermen as poachers is completely disrespectful and I personally take offense to that.

I spearfish and I r&r fish. I have an enormous amount of respect for the fish and game that I kill. If I killed it, it gets eaten... period. I'm not a trophy hunter or a trophy fishermen. I get a lot of satisfaction from just being on the water or in the woods, and if I can bring something home for the table, then that is a bonus.

I can't understand how some guys have the nerve to tell others that they shouldn't be allowed to spearfish because the species is threatened, and then go out and fish all night, killing at least 10% of their catch in the process. It is completely hypocritical and nonsensical.

Furthermore, I can't stand the argument that spearfishermen will crowd out rod and reel guys. If you want a spot, then get there first. It is that simple. The guy who gets there second has no right to crowd the other person out. It is no different than the canal. People can fish in harmony, or they can be #^&#^&#^&#^&s about it and cause all sorts of problems. I take every possible measure to avoid rod and reel guys when I am in the water. I would hope that they would pay me the same respect.

The bottom line is that I love fishing for bass, whether I do it with a rod or a spear. Unlike the majority of rod and reel guys, I'm not out there praying for the 50 to swim by. I'm out there to relax and hopefully put food on the table. If I want to swim with the fish and choose exactly which fish I want to kill, then I should have that privilege. Just as rod and reel guys have the privilege to kill whichever fish they choose (plus the % that are killed just because they were caught).

The large majority of spearfishermen are good guys, who love and respect the fishery just as much as rod and reel guys. I'm not sure why they are considered the enemy, but those who dislike them should seriously consider reexamining their point of view. I can promise you that the percentage of bad eggs between the rod an reel guys is the same as the spearfishermen. However, EVERY SINGLE GUY that is a "good egg" in both categories kills fish, regardless of whether you are c & r or not. Why not band together and help the species, rather than splitting hairs about how you kill fish?

JTR:
I'm not a spear fisherman and think you present a most reasoned and fair argument.