As an employee of a tow-assist/salvage operation, i have to disagree with the individual's stance in the posted link. First off, there are circumstances and conditions that must be present to deem a case a "salvage". An insurance company will not just blindly pay a salvor if absolute proof of such conditions or circumstances are not proven to have existed. To elaborate, if a vessel is in no immediate or imminent danger (also known as peril), then there is no salvage situation. If, in fact, a vessel is in a scenario where destruction or damage will occur to that vessel (or it will damage another) without outside intervention then a salvage situation exists, and a company like TowboatUS, SeaTow, or SafeSea can provide assistance. In other words, if you've fouled your prop, have no means of safe propulsion in heavy seas in a narrow channel and you're unable to anchor the vessel, it's safe to assume that without intervention your vessel will be damaged or worse. The salvage company will then provide their services, later submitting a quote based on the salvaged vessels's value, job risk to crew and equipment (including sea and weather conditions), distance travelled, potential for loss or damage to the salvaged vessel (or damage that has already occured), etc. I couldn't help but notice the term "extorion" in the headline, and i find this idea laughable. Would these people prefer to be left to their own devices and lose the boat entirely, or maybe their lives??? I think not. This isn't the first time i've heard such a story, and i'm sure it won't be the last, so as a loyal employee that believes in and stands behind the service of assistance towing and salvage, i feel it's a duty to inform where i can. Whether you're a TowBoatUS, SeaTow or other towing service member, your membership is money well spent and pays for towing, fuel drops, battery jumps and soft (sand, mud, gravel) ungroundings. If you find yourself in a perilous situation where damage or total destruction is sure to take place and you're unable to avert such a situation, then that situation becomes a salvage, which adequate insurance will indeed cover. Why should we not be paid for putting our equipment and asses on the line??? Thank you to those who saw that story for the misinformed drivel it is.

A reasonable fee is ok claiming salvage is taking advantage of the suituation, the laws need to be changed.

agreed, and that's just what is granted to the salvor... a reasonable fee. like i said, insurance companies pay only what is agreed upon by both parties (insurance company and salvage company). but even if you don't have insurance would you rather pay, let's say, $1000 dollars for me to risk my life and vessel to save yours, or would you rather be left to pay for a damaged or totalled boat to the tune of several thousand? The company I happen to work for has built and maintained a reputation as an honest, fair and "for the customer" outfit, and will under no circumstances jeopardize that reputation. As I posted earlier, we deem a salvage situation to exist when our intervention will prevent UNQUESTIONABLE damage or loss to a vessel or vessels. again, we can't just make this stuff up to insurance companies. We must provide proof. i completely understand that some may have had unfavorable encounters with towing/salvage companies, but i consider the one i work for to be a first rate, reliable, honest service provider, and our countless satisfied customers would agree.

Bad weather must keep you awake sitting by the radio waiting for them to call, kinda of like waiting for the lottery to announce your ticket is the winning ticket. I suppose if it is an older low value vessel say a 28 foot wooden cabin cruiser you would say I ain't going out in this weather. Must succk when you find the boat stranded looks worthless. The laws need to be changed. It's a goood thing tow companies with auto's can't claim salvage because the vehicle broke down in a blizzard, plenty of tow truck drivers get killed doing their job. Haven't heard about any towboat crews getting killed doing their job. It is taking advantage because of how the laws are written in my eye's..
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I think it is safe to say that the Admiralty Laws that the small coastal tow companies reference to make a salvage claims were really made for the shipping industry. I am talking ocean going salvage tugs that will put a line on a 90,000 ton DIW supertanker with 60 million dollars of crude aboard after getting approval from an insurance company.

To use the same laws to salvage a 100K sport fishing boat DIW drifting toward the rocks is wrong but legal.

These companys provide a service and it is proper to charge more than the membership fee for instances of "peril"....what that amount is.????

Read "Grey Seas Under" by Farley Mowat.....and old book about an ocean going salvage tug called Foundation Franklin.

The industries reputation is earned by its actions. There are no heros here just opportunists. All the heros are with the coast guard.

listen, my idea isn't to make enemies here, but to refer to assistance towers or salvage companies as "opportunists" is ridiculous, flat out. Have any of you ever been involved with a marine salvage or witnessed one first-hand? maybe, but it's not likely. i have, many times, and i can tell you for instance that when Sandy passed through and the fire department called us to save a vessel that had broken off its mooring and another that was minutes from sinking, there was no opportunism involved. i know that when we were out there in sixty-knot winds and 6 to 8-foot seas and i had to get aboard the rapidly sinking vessel to put emergency pumps on it, i felt like a proffessional doing a dangerous job and i felt i deserved to be paid for it. furthermore, the crew and i were friends with the owner and he couldn't seem to thank us enough. if you will argue against that, i'd gladly take one of you along next time and you can climb into the cabin of a vessel that could go down and take you with it. To believe "poor me" tales without experiencing things first hand is an amateur mistake not only in boating, but in life.

So what are the fees based on? Value of the vessel or difficulty of the job/conditions. I couuld agree with a premiun price based upon conditions but basing the fee on the value of the vessel is wrong. If I am traversing the canal and loose power and have no anchor (let's say it was lost during deployment) and I am adrift and require your service would I be billed for a tow? I doubt it, you would feel it meets the criteria to be a salvage and try and collect/bill as such...opportunistic is a very good description.
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the scenario you described is a perfect one. Take a closer look at the scenario you've described, and judge for yourself. your boat will more than likely be destroyed or badly damaged if left unassisted. if the situation were under control, you'd have no reason to panic, right? Since the situation is not under control, you would clearly be in a perilous situation, potentially damaging your vessel or causing other vessels damage (think of the tankers, tugs and barges that cannot deviate from their course and frequently traverse the canal). in other words, you're now in danger, but you're a potential danger to others. This is indeed grounds for a salvage, and if you request our services, the subsequent bill depends upon the amount and extent of use of equipment, crew, and yes, the value of your vessel. if i can prevent your 50,000-dollar vessel from being destroyed, don't you think i deserve payment for my efforts?? now as you sit there and assure yourself that we demand these outrageous payments, think of the insurance company, who is in business to deal with such incidents. would you believe that they would pay us a made-up sum we didn't deserve?

So what amonut of the boats value ($50,000) is going to be billed to the insurance company. Why does a vessel that is only worth $6,500 get the same service yet a lower bill?
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So what are the fees based on? Value of the vessel or difficulty of the job/conditions. I couuld agree with a premiun price based upon conditions but basing the fee on the value of the vessel is wrong. If I am traversing the canal and loose power and have no anchor (let's say it was lost during deployment) and I am adrift and require your service would I be billed for a tow? I doubt it, you would feel it meets the criteria to be a salvage and try and collect/bill as such...opportunistic is a very good description.
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This is a good point. I do not agree that the fees should be based on the salvage value of the vessel. At the end of the day you are a tow boat operator not a surgeon. If it is too rough then stay in and let the Coast Guard handle it. In the end its all about the money. Some poor bastards back against the wall and you got him by the balls.

And yes over my 45 years of boating I have (Salvaged) towed other boats, I have rescued boaters in peril in the water, in rough seas. I pulled a few guys out of the bay a few years ago after their boat was hit by a tanker in the middle of the night, I rescued 3 people out of Rhode Island sound after they hit a rock in broad daylight. I never charge anyone a nickle.

I do not disagree that a tow service is badly needed. It is. But the hosing of the boater under these circumstances seems bad.

the scenario you described is a perfect one. Take a closer look at the scenario you've described, and judge for yourself. your boat will more than likely be destroyed or badly damaged if left unassisted. if the situation were under control, you'd have no reason to panic, right? Since the situation is not under control, you would clearly be in a perilous situation, potentially damaging your vessel or causing other vessels damage (think of the tankers, tugs and barges that cannot deviate from their course and frequently traverse the canal). in other words, you're now in danger, but you're a potential danger to others. This is indeed grounds for a salvage, and if you request our services, the subsequent bill depends upon the amount and extent of use of equipment, crew, and yes, the value of your vessel. if i can prevent your 50,000-dollar vessel from being destroyed, don't you think i deserve payment for my efforts?? now as you sit there and assure yourself that we demand these outrageous payments, think of the insurance company, who is in business to deal with such incidents. would you believe that they would pay us a made-up sum we didn't deserve? you're foolish if you do. i don't want to argue or put you down, but what you're saying is out if ignorance and i won't let it go unchecked. you clearly don't have your facts straight, and are blinded by self-righteous opinions of something you know nothing about. that much is apparent.
Ok so seeing as you won't say how much the salvage value is you want me to remain ignorant.
Large vessels like barges and tugs traverse the canal around slack tide so mid tide the danger is reduced yet I bet the bill isn't.
If the amount you collect for salvage is reasonable (My scenerio your choice of $50,000 value) why not post it and explain why a $6500 vessel gets the same service but a smaller bill?
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listen man, there is no cut and dry rate when it comes to salvage. we certainly wouldnt charge the same bill for a boat on the rocks in a calm harbor as we would for that same boat on the rocks during a small craft advisory in an unsheltered body of water. the potential for destruction and/or loss is much greater for the latter, and i'm sure it would require a greater effort and risk on our part. to put it bluntly, it's not always as easy as just pulling up to someone, tying a line on and hauling them to safety, and that's a part i think you fail to understand. have i heard stories of people treated unfairly in salvage operations? yes, i have, but the company i'm a part of doesn't work that way. what i'm trying to convey to you is that we do not charge outlandish sums of money to perform the task, and even if we did the insurance companies wouldn't pay it! plain and simple. our industry rate is dependent upon a variety of situations, and is only paid out after an agreement is reached with a customer's insurance company. for those without insurance, we work with them and reach agreements that sometimes result in a loss on our part, but it's more important to us to uphold the reputation of our company and profession as a whole, so we take it in stride. also, i'm sure you know what it costs to run a boat, so consider that our primary salvage vessel is a 36-foot vessel with twin 200's (sometimes an operation requires more than one vessel on scene, though). do you think that thing's cheap to run when we're hauling ass full-throttle to help a customer who's twelve miles away?? or what about the crew of 3 or 4 that are typically needed to pull off a serious salvage operation?? cheap?? or what about possibly hiring a diver to spend what has sometimes been hours in the water to rig a sunken vessel with float bags to get it to the surface?? the list goes on, and whether you choose to believe it or not, there are many expenses and risks associated with salvage operations. risks to gear, crew and yes, human life. that being said, when it's gritty out there and i'm called on to help rescue a vessel in danger, i'm loving it. the crew is capable, the vessels are capable, and the gear is capable. we operate as professionals and do a job not everybody has the ability to pull off. the monetary reward is nice, sure, but seeing a relieved customer when we prevent their boat from sinking or being destroyed is what keeps our company growing year after year. i understand your concerns here, but i'm trying my best to give you the facts. i don't have any intentions of starting a feud or making enemies here but even if i can't change your mind, i'll defend this position with all i have. My integrity as a mariner is second only to my pride as a mariner, and im standing up for my profession.

So you are to embarassed to say how much just the salvage cost would be in my scenerio which would require a rope and a tow.
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The price depends on the pocketbook of the payor.
Multi-million dollar yacht drifting towards a pile of rocks. Ins company gets a fat bill.
16' skiff drifting at same pile of rocks with no insurance. The bill is less.

Say you're a plumber and your called to a broken pipe scenario at a mobile home vs a mega mansion. Who do you think is going to pay more?
Same pipe different pocketbooks
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I'm just looking for salvage cost. $50,000 value compared to $6500 value. Any professional would know the amount unless they have never done it before. What percentage of the vessels value is billed, if you don't want to give a dollar figure. I'm not so ignorant that I can't handle the math. I find the little green light under his screen name, avatar area mesmerizing while waiting for reply ;) I hope he is ok because it has been on for over an hour. The number must be pretty long if it can't be put in in over an hours time.
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i can see where this is going, so i'm not about to indulge in your requests for a hypothetical scenario "bill". once again, cost or rate is not precalculated, but depends on a great number of variables that take place during the event (the pocketbook is not one of those). what you're trying to do here is solidify your argument, but you're running out of legs to stand on. you're not a professional tower, and you've likely never been involved in or even seen a real salvage take place (and i'm not talking about your friend's skiff that's stuck on a sandbar). to clarify, i'm not touting my accomplishments here, only standing up for my livelihood. oh, and implications that i'm making all of this up are amusing to me. once again, i'd be glad to invite you along sometime. i think i've wasted enough of my time, so i'm bowing out, knowing full and well that i'll meet more of your kind as time wears on. these instances are very few, but they are almost unavoidable, and if reason and facts don't get to you, i suspect not much will. for those of you who have been watching this debate unfold, i hope that you can see that most of the "horror stories" you've heard or have been told are nothing more than over embellishments, just like the original story that was posted. it's no accident that our member base grows every year, so i'll let that bit of information speak for itself.

Your inability to answer speaks volumes which is a good thing because I am blinded by my righteousness. I don't want to know what you charge per foot for the rope you use or any other equipment just what the salvage portion of the bill would be for each vessel $50,000 vessel compared to a $6500 vessel. Being a professional I would think you could at the very least give an estimated bill just for salvage portion based upon each vessels value, unless you are to embarassed to.

embarrassment? about what, not providing you with some "quote"? what's your deal, fella? are you purposefully refusing to understand this? just let it go, for the love of god. i can't put this in simpler terms for you.

Lets give some further details.
I am adrift in my 28 foot center console valued at $6500 on an east running tide flat calm 5 mile per hour winds under partly cloudy skies and just went under the Bourne bridge when my call comes in at 4:32pm. There is just myself and 4 ugly stick rods with Zebco reels on board. My electronics are limited to a handheld vhf and hand held compass. I am wearing cut off jeans and a wife beater t-shirt my hair color is grey and I have 5 o'clock shadow for facial hair, shoes are flip flops, my cooler has four bud light beers in it. I am drifting right down the left side center of the canal. You are based at the Sandwich basin and by the time you reach my boat I am 500 yards west of the entrance to the Sandwhich basin. Approximately how much would the tow cost even though you haven't seen I drive an 81 Oldsmobile with 132,000 miles on it and A/C doesn't work.

Second scenerio: I am adrift in my 28 foot center console valued at $50,000 on an east running tide flat calm 5 mile per hour winds under partly cloudy skies and just went under the Bourne bridge when my call comes in at 4:32pm.There is just myself onboard and I have 4 custom rods all sporting Van Staal 300's loaded with 300yards of Jerry Brown braided line. I am wearing a Lacoste rugby style shirt and have two gold rings and a 18" 18 karat gold kneckless on and am wearing Speery topsiders. I have no hair on my head or face but I am wearing a Bigfish baseball style cap. I have a cooler which contains goose liver pate and a half bottle of Petron tequila. I have approximately $8500 in electronics on board. I am drifting right down the left side center of the canal. You are based at the Sandwich basin and by the time you reach my boat I am 500 yards west of the entrance to the Sandwhich basin. Aproximately how much would the tow cost, after telling you I have a 2011 Cadillac CTS with just over 12,000 miles on it.

Two different people similar vessels, same conditions, is that specific enough to get an estimated cost?
Lost the anchor on both vessels so they are both salvages

embarrassment? about what, not providing you with some "quote"? what's your deal, fella? are you purposefully refusing to understand this? just let it go, for the love of god. i can't put this in simpler terms for you. if you don't get it, which you clearly don't, i'm over it. your anger or whatever it is you're harboring here will have no effect on the world as we know it from this point on, so eh. ignorance is bliss, my man. ignorance is bliss.

I am just trying to understand what is considered reasonable and need your help since you are the professional and feel the rates are reasonable. Who should I be asking?

What you are describing is not even a salvage situation. The price for both TOW cases would be the same.The fee is not based on the wallet. If these two boats where in salvage situations the fee also would be the same. If you listen closely you may learn a little about salvage law. Sometimes the fee is based on hull value other times it could be based on a per foot basis. The insurance companies are willing to pay salvors for efforts that save the insurance companies money. The insurance company does not want a boat to get damaged,so they will gladly pay salvors that prevent that damage. I think everyone is trying to teach you a little bit about salvage law, because you dont agree with that law does not make the law wrong. Laws are Laws and we get paid based on the laws of salvage.

Don't bother Casey,Ed is a slow learner and historically reluctant to admit he is wrong.

What you are describing is not even a salvage situation. The price for both TOW cases would be the same.The fee is not based on the wallet. If these two boats where in salvage situations the fee also would be the same. If you listen closely you may learn a little about salvage law. Sometimes the fee is based on hull value other times it could be based on a per foot basis. The insurance companies are willing to pay salvors for efforts that save the insurance companies money. The insurance company does not want a boat to get damaged,so they will gladly pay salvors that prevent that damage. I think everyone is trying to teach you a little bit about salvage law, because you dont agree with that law does not make the law wrong. Laws are Laws and we get paid based on the laws of salvage.
If you see his post (post9) he does indeed say my scenerio would be considerred a salvage.
to qouteThis is indeed grounds for a salvage

Don't bother Casey,Ed is a slow learner and historically reluctant to admit he is wrong.

I just wanted answer based upon what had already been said. Just because someone is persistant doesn't necessarily mean they are reluctant to admit they are wrong. We (seadogg and I)have discussed it through pm and guess what I chose do back off.
If I am so wrong please point out where or just back off like I have. In advance I thank for your understanding. Good enough?

What you are describing is not even a salvage situation. The price for both TOW cases would be the same.The fee is not based on the wallet. If these two boats where in salvage situations the fee also would be the same. If you listen closely you may learn a little about salvage law. Sometimes the fee is based on hull value other times it could be based on a per foot basis. The insurance companies are willing to pay salvors for efforts that save the insurance companies money. The insurance company does not want a boat to get damaged,so they will gladly pay salvors that prevent that damage. I think everyone is trying to teach you a little bit about salvage law, because you dont agree with that law does not make the law wrong. Laws are Laws and we get paid based on the laws of salvage.

Amen!

It's like the old joke about divorce: Why is salvage cost so expensive? Because it's worth it. :)

In a broad sense, the overall pricing scheme of tow/salvage companies MUST be reasonable because this is a relatively free market. Potential competition keeps overall pricing reasonable. If government intrudes and restricts compensation, there will be fewer available to save our sorry asses. Or it will have to be made up by increasing tow fees.

It's also a free country (for now), so there's no need for anyone to whine and complain about exorbitant fees A boater is free to ask if it's a salvage or tow, and is equally free to deny the service offered. Of course they also bear the responsibility for vessel damage, and usually the insurance will not cover it if they learn that the boater could have protected the boat, but chose not to. :rolleyes:

Then there's potential environmental clean-up costs and liability that the know-it-all boater may be responsible for as well.:eek:

Don't bother Casey,Ed is a slow learner and historically reluctant to admit he is wrong.
Maybe it's the meds but I can't help but wonder what I have done to provoke you? Perhaps you can give an example so I may learn. Would you allow someone to say this about you without asking why or what they mean?
I am pretty sick and tired of catching crap from others just because I stand by my opinion. I don't recall many members here stepping up to defend me so basically it's time to see where I stand. Perhaps it's time for me to go, perhaps we should start a poll. You can kick a dog only so long before they fight back. When have I shown this level of disrespect?
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don't worry about it ed...you asked for an answer and recieved a lot of verbage but no answer- not sure why.

Say you're a plumber and your called to a broken pipe scenario at a mobile home vs a mega mansion. Who do you think is going to pay more?
Same pipe different pocketbooks ...........the fishing freak

All the plumbers I work with would charge the same hourly rate for both jobs. Only difference is that the guy in the mobile home would probably offer them a cup of coffee or a beer.

Say you're a plumber and your called to a broken pipe scenario at a mobile home vs a mega mansion. Who do you think is going to pay more?
Same pipe different pocketbooks ...........the fishing freak

All the plumbers I work with would charge the same hourly rate for both jobs. Only difference is that the guy in the mobile home would probably offer them a cup of coffee or a beer.
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Amen,From this plumber.
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Have any of you ever been involved with a marine salvage or witnessed one first-hand? maybe, but it's not likely. i have, many times...

I spent many a day in teh early 80's sitting 100 yards off a disabled vessel while Tim Peregoy played his games just to get his way and push the entire "marine salvage" policy of the Coast Guard. I've watched first hand in my 23 years of service and have to say that most of the actions I've seen are befitting of the name "pirates" given to the industry.