Scenario: You’ve discovered a new and very effective method of taking large striped bass which requires you to add foreign/toxic substances into the natural bait you are using. Without adding them your secret bait will not work. Only problem is that these added substances can be very harmful, if not fatal, to bass, other fish, and wildlife that happen to eat your secret bait should it come off your hook or you happen to drop the bait overboard. Undersize bass or legal bass that you plan on releasing will also suffer or potentially perish if they've already ingested the bait. You’re now caught in a dilemma: do you continue to use this method to catch more bass than you ever have knowing that you might be causing collateral damage or by-kill to other wildlife, or do you give it up and go back to other less effective methods you’ve used in the past that produce less by-kill. What would you do?

I wouldn't used. no doubt in my mind.
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Send the concept to VA/NC won't make a difference in by-kill!:smash:


No seriously, you said foreign/toxic substances therefore the EPA is sure to have restrictions on this chemical's use and if highly restrictive you could be liable(if caught) for some serious environmental damage?

The amount of times you said "toxic" makes me think you already know you probably shouldn't be using it. Also, you state that it has an extremely high kill rate in not only fish but other wildlife, so aren't you afraid of accidentally getting this stuff on you or in you? Would you eat a fish you killed with this method? I'm gonna say you SHOULD DEFINATELY STOP using this stuff. Dynamite is pretty effective at getting lots of fish, but that doesn't mean you should use that either, just saying. Just remember that you enjoy this fishery because others before you chose to do the right thing and stop using toxins and other harmful catching practices, leave something for your grandkids!

Is this strictly hypothetical? I would stop using it, but is there more to your question? Is there something you found that is commonly used which has these effects?
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yo-yo

I don't fish bait, but since we're talking hypotheticals- no way....

Dz I,ll take a 5th on that ><>><:fishin:

Seems like a no brainer to me.
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Loaded question....

I would find a way to rig my secret bait so when I hook a fish the secret juice is still attached to the line.
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yo-yo

Good answer! Was thinking the same.
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I catch my bait in the Merrimack. So yes, I do target big fish with toxic bait. I just never knew there was a connection. :huh:

But I would never Yo-yo

go back to other less effective methods you’ve used in the past

Or try to recreate a less toxic way of doing the same thing

Nauset beach
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3 way set up :)
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Definitely the YO YO and I don't fish from a boat so I have never used it
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I can't work in hypothecials and must know your secret bass-catching addative.

You guys are good. Yes I am referencing the YoYo technique. I just wanted to keep the description generic so as to just describe/show the potential harm/effect without naming the method. I could not come up with an analogy to some other fishing method that potentially could have the same effects.

The reason I posed this question was because the RI Striped Bass Advisory Panel (of which I’m a member) reviewed a request from RISAA’s Legislative Committee on Tuesday to enact a regulation that would alter how yoyo rigs can be constructed – basically stating that all foreign materials added to the bait (menhaden in this case) had to be attached to the anglers running line so that if the bait was lost, the foreign materials would be recovered. Massachusetts enacted a similar regulation last season.

Well, to make a long story shorter the Advisory Panel decided that there was not enough “scientific evidence” or “studies” to indicate that bass (and other fish, birds, mammals) were/could be harmed by having lead weights or sections of coat hanger in their digestive tracts. I tried to convince other members of the panel that even without scientific evidence; the yoyo method was essentially a wasteful/unethical method because of its potential by-kill effect. I anticipated that the R&R pinhook lobby would fight this regulation but I never anticipated that other recreational panel members and recreational fishermen that were present would have a problem with the proposed new yoyo regulation. By a vote of 8-1 (me being the 1) the proposed new regulation was sent back to the RI Dept of Marine Fisheries asking for more scientific evidence that ingested lead weights can contaminate bass and sections of coat hanger in the stomach can cause harm to fish/marine birds, etc. To say the least I was a little bit shocked but again this is Rhode Island and I’ve been in this game a long time so I’ve seen this before.

What I gathered at the meeting was that use of the yoyo method is apparently rampant in RI waters by both commercial rod and reel AND recreational fishermen – so much so that both groups argued that their catches would be severely affected by the proposed change. Sounds like many of these fishermen (both Comm and Rec) are very dependent on this method for their success rates.

BTW, looks as if the recreational and commercial striped bass regulations in RI will stay essentially the same. Only a slight change in commercial R&R seasonal start dates.

Thanks for all your responses.
DZ

Like someone else said, I would try to experiment and find a way of fishing similar, but less toxic.

Everyone (including myself) is thinking that you are talking about yo-yoing and if you are there are already many other proven methods that will accomplish the same thing and you are able to do it less toxic.

If you are not talking about yo-yoing than the "toxin" you keep referring to, if it would be harmful to you if you ate the fish you catch with it I would absolutely stop fishing with it. My thought being that even if you were irresponsible, fished with this toxic method and threw the fish back, there is nothing to say that someone else, in a matter of minutes or hours, couldn't come by and catch that fish, keep it, and then ingest this toxin as well.

Lastly, isn't the fun of fishing the challenge? I can tell by your language that you know/think this is wrong. It really isn't a catch at all costs type of thing with you is it? A few less fish, but caught in a more challenging and safe way sounds a lot more rewarding to me.

Great question!!

Is there scientific data available which shows how long lead must be inside the stomach of a fish, bird or human before enough lead is absorbed into the bloodstream to become lethal?

Well, to make a long story shorter the Advisory Panel decided that there was not enough “scientific evidence” or “studies” to indicate that bass (and other fish, birds, mammals) were/could be harmed by having lead weights or sections of coat hanger in their digestive tracts. DZ

:smash:

JL
I was also @ the meeting & a commercial R/R ask the person from the DEm if the they or the state or anyone /anywhere has evidence to back this up .
She said of all the studies & testing that has been done .............. the only harmful chemical that is coming up in fish is mercury ..........zero on lead, iron, etc ?????????????

Seriously?... Why don't you have those board members eat some coat hangers, spark plugs, or lead weights and see how they feel LOL

I think its safe to say it doesnt take a scientist to realize these foreign objects arent good for wildlife to eat

Not to mention the complications that will arise when people go to weigh in their 50+ pounder fish in a tournament, and 12oz of led comes rolling out of its belly! Happened in the MV derby a few years ago to Lev Woldyka I believe

Interesting question -

IMO:
To the Hypothetical, no you shouldn't

To the YoYo, no you shouldn't unless you come up with a variation that does what the reg states - stay attached to line.

Dennis - If I was on the panel with you it would have been 7-2

6 - 3 :)

news flash! Jamming hooks into a fish's mouth, throat or gullet and then reeling it in by that attached body part can be potentially fatal to that fish!

Seriously though, by no means an expert but 6 yrs fishing regularly in a boat in Narr Bay I have seen only 2 boats yo-yo-ing, so not sure if its "rampant"

So all the hooks from lost eels, lost plugs, etc are not harmful to fish? Wont a fish swallow every lost eel with hooks on it, that cant be good for a fish?

There is yo-yoing happening in Narr Bay. Mostly on Brenton Reef during the Summer. I have only seen it twice in the upper Bay and both of the guys doing are comm.

Have I done it? Yup. Am I good at it? Only so-so. I would rather live-line than Yo-Yo not because of the ecological concerns but because I'd rather see a fish chase the bait around.

news flash! Jamming hooks into a fish's mouth, throat or gullet and then reeling it in by that attached body part can be potentially fatal to that fish!

Seriously though, by no means an expert but 6 yrs fishing regularly in a boat in Narr Bay I have seen only 2 boats yo-yo-ing, so not sure if its "rampant"

So all the hooks from lost eels, lost plugs, etc are not harmful to fish? Wont a fish swallow every lost eel with hooks on it, that cant be good for a fish?

Yo-yo-ing isn't as much a problem inside the bay, but outside of it in the deeper water. Lots of it going on out there.

I think the concern is more that window sash weights and spark plugs aren't going to rust out in the salt water nearly as fast as hooks. Hooks rust out pretty fast, and as far as I know are much less dangerous than the materials being used to yo-yo.

JL
I was also @ the meeting & a commercial R/R ask the person from the DEm if the they or the state or anyone /anywhere has evidence to back this up .
She said of all the studies & testing that has been done .............. the only harmful chemical that is coming up in fish is mercury ..........zero on lead, iron, etc ?????????????

Mercury is a chronic bioaccumulation, biomagnification issue. The coat hanger, and ingested lead for that matter, are accute threats. I can supply a veterinarian who can testify what a coat hanger does to the digestive tract of vertebrates. Would that help this committee :smash:? The tests have not been done specifically on striped-bass with those quantities of lead digested, because you would have to capture those specific fish from the wild, which is nearly impossible or set up a controlled experiment where they are fed yo-yo rigged bait. There is plenty of scientific data of the effect of lead on vertebrates. Yo-yoing is for people with short rods. :fishin:

Is there scientific data available which shows how long lead must be inside the stomach of a fish, bird or human before enough lead is absorbed into the bloodstream to become lethal?


Absorption rates in humans are known A child in Oregon died of lead poisoning within four days of swallowing a necklace that contained lead. He had syptoms within 24 hours.
In children, up to 50% of ingested lead may be absorbed (see Grant, L.D. (2009). "Lead and compounds". In Lippmann, M.. Environmental Toxicants: Human Exposures and Their Health Effects (3rd ed.). Wiley-Interscience. ISBN 0-471-79335-3).

LD50 of lead is known for many fish, birds, etc. Given the digestive system in fish, the lead is not going to pass through the digestive tract and will stay in the fish to be continually absorbed. The amount of lead in a fish that eats yoyo'd bait is going to kill most of them. I don't have any idea how many people yoyo or how many baits come free, so I can't guess how much of an issue it is for the overall population. Maybe I kill just as many fish by catch and release mortality as a person who yoyo's for meat, I don't know.

Absorption rates in humans are known A child in Oregon died of lead poisoning within four days of swallowing a necklace that contained lead. He had syptoms within 24 hours.
In children, up to 50% of ingested lead may be absorbed (see Grant, L.D. (2009). "Lead and compounds". In Lippmann, M.. Environmental Toxicants: Human Exposures and Their Health Effects (3rd ed.). Wiley-Interscience. ISBN 0-471-79335-3).

LD50 of lead is known for many fish, birds, etc. Given the digestive system in fish, the lead is not going to pass through the digestive tract and will stay in the fish to be continually absorbed. The amount of lead in a fish that eats yoyo'd bait is going to kill most of them. I don't have any idea how many people yoyo or how many baits come free, so I can't guess how much of an issue it is for the overall population. Maybe I kill just as many fish by catch and release mortality as a person who yoyo's for meat, I don't know.

Thanks! Now I am trying to recall if I ever ingested any split shot when I was younger figuring it would just pass right on through. Maybe the fact that I can't remember is a sign... :skulz:

Eel-Bob?

Scenario: You’ve discovered a new and very effective method of taking large striped bass which requires you to add foreign/toxic substances into the natural bait you are using. Without adding them your secret bait will not work. Only problem is that these added substances can be very harmful, if not fatal, to bass, other fish, and wildlife that happen to eat your secret bait should it come off your hook or you happen to drop the bait overboard. Undersize bass or legal bass that you plan on releasing will also suffer or potentially perish if they've already ingested the bait. You’re now caught in a dilemma: do you continue to use this method to catch more bass than you ever have knowing that you might be causing collateral damage or by-kill to other wildlife, or do you give it up and go back to other less effective methods you’ve used in the past that produce less by-kill. What would you do?

No. Never tried yo-yoing. Never felt the need to learn and try it. Dont you know that fish practically jump in the boat out here.:rollem::rollem:

If there is no science backing it up by can't bird hunters use lead shot?
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"the authors said that numerous studies already documented adverse effects to wildlife, especially waterbirds and scavenging species, like hawks and eagles. Lead exposure from ingested lead shot, bullets, and fishing sinkers also has been reported in reptiles, and studies near shooting ranges have shown evidence of lead poisoning in small mammals.

Although fish ingest sinkers, jigs, and hooks, mortality in fish seems to be related to injury, blood loss, exposure to air and exhaustion rather than the lead toxicity that affects warm-blooded species."

USGS Release: Lead Shot and Sinkers: Weighty Implications for Fish and Wildlife Health (7/11/2008 11:29:09 AM) (http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1972#.UO78A2_Bc5Y)

I stopped fishing any method that had a high rate of gut hooking years ago. Just felt like the right thing to do. Seemed googan like tossing back bleeders.
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"

Although fish ingest sinkers, jigs, and hooks, mortality in fish seems to be related to injury, blood loss, exposure to air and exhaustion rather than the lead toxicity that affects warm-blooded species."

USGS Release: Lead Shot and Sinkers: Weighty Implications for Fish and Wildlife Health (7/11/2008 11:29:09 AM) (http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1972#.UO78A2_Bc5Y)

I read the technical report so I could see what precipitated the above statement. http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/loons/science/tws_tech_review_lead.pdf

Two things:

The studies in the technical report do not indicate that lead is non-toxic in fish. Studies of fish mortality have found injuries from catching and handling do kill fish. That is not the same as lead does not kill fish. The above statement implies that cold-blooded organisms are not affected by lead like warm blooded, but I can't find anything implicit in the report to support that, though I may have missed it.

The report lists many studies that show that ingested lead accumulates in the organs and tissues of fish that have ingested it and that there are morphological changes associated with it.

You see the Yo-Yoing topic bought up so many times on how it "hurts" the fish and how it should be banned, yet this method is only effective in such a small area targeting structure oriented fish only in certain conditions. It is limited to boat fishing only. The amount of people actually fishing this method and being effective at it is minuscule and those that are effective have every intention of killing the fish they catch. If there is so much concern of "hurting" these fish why do you never, ever see any talk of banning "snagging hooks"??? They are trebble hooks with a hunk of lead all in one! The "snagg and drop" method is used by thousands, and thousands of bouth shorebound and boat anglers! The method is used from as far north as the pogie swims to as far south as the pogie swims! The angler casts and rips the "snagging" hook through schools of pogies. There is no consideration to the collateral harm that it causes pogies, blues, bass, and other species of fish, sometimes mammal as the snagging hook cuts deep into them only to cause infection later. Eventually one of these pogies will become "snagged" then dropped, and then a fish, preferably a large bass will eat it! The angler will wait till the predatory fish has the snagged bunker deep, deep in the gut before sticking them with all their might! The fish is then dragged in and onto the beach or boat. Once in the angler kills the fish or if the fish is not to liking cut the line and release the fish because it is easier to retie a new rig or dig into the fishes gut, make a bloody mess, salvage the snagging hook and either way release it only to repeat the process.
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I still come back to the fact that it is possible to yo-yo effectively without using all of that dangerous crap. There is plenty of info out there about how to do it, perhaps the best of both worlds for those that like the method and find it successful.

Am I the only person who doesn't know what yo yo ing is? I've heard the term many times before, but could someone give a quik overview of what it entails?
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Am I the only person who doesn't know what yo yo ing is? I've heard the term many times before, but could someone give a quik overview of what it entails?
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I'm not going to get into details because it's like showing you how to shoot dope.

It's deadly.

You weight a pogie with a lead or an old spark plug. You do some other stuff and then you hook it in back of the dorsal fin. You have to be on a boat. You drop in straight down and..... get the picture.

Funny how all the fish caught with lead in there belly are still alive, until they are killed another way. How many fish are caught with plugs hanging out of their face? Or like was mentioned snag hooks on there bellys? Snag-drop-snap" line breaks. Ohh well tie on another snag hook on and rip it again.

It's on the books in Mass now that all the "gear" must be attached to the mainline. Problem (or complaints of a problem) solved.
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Funny how all the fish caught with lead in there belly are still alive, until they are killed another way. How many fish are caught with plugs hanging out of their face? Or like was mentioned snag hooks on there bellys? Snag-drop-snap" line breaks. Ohh well tie on another snag hook on and rip it again.

It's on the books in Mass now that all the "gear" must be attached to the mainline. Problem (or complaints of a problem) solved.
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+1

For me, this is easy.

I would not use the harmful secret bait :fury:

Funny how all the fish caught with lead in there belly are still alive,
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I think it would be funnier if we caught dead fish :devil2:.

I never lost a fish yo yo'ing, never. Everytime I did fish this way was on a comm. license a buddy of mine held. I have never ever cut a fish open that I caught surf fishing that I filleted that I ever found lead in its gullet either. So it either isn't being done that often, or when it is done it is very effective and the angler lands the fish, or its doesn't kill the fish who ate the lead. After all how many floaters do any of us see? Anyone can query a post that I did here that explains it in a finite manner. I did yo yo in the canal once, but I got really tired trying to hold bottom, using 14 #'s of lead weight, standing in the middle of the railroad bridge using a spiral wrapped boat rod.