Really???

are they kidding with this?

http://www.ijreview.com/2013/10/84485-govt-tries-close-ocean-due-shutdown/


so an anonymous park ranger says they are to make it as hard as possible on people

:fury::smash::devil2:
can you say revolution
wtf

pop their tires
make'm walk

Our forefathers, those that wrote; "by the people, for the people, of the people", would have taken up arms and marched on the Capital to restore order

Buy ruples now
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Our forefathers, those that wrote; "by the people, for the people, of the people", would have taken up arms and marched on the Capital to restore order

Only if the pansies in todays society had what it takes to do this. When it starts, I'm in!

So we don't get the government we need but we get the government we deserve. We voted these clowns in - both parties.

I had a hard time believing so I searched more and found some corroboration - some is a repeat of other articles but this one is local to the location:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/10/03/3668028_p2/shutdown-day-3-food-distributor.html

Locally we see some of the shore access points closed: Plum Island, Sachuest, etc

Well, if the point of a National Park is to preserve, how can you let people run roughshod over areas without proper staffing? Not to mention the liability issues...

I'm also suspect the context of that quote has been lost.

-spence

what quote Spence?


there is no defense for this, the government is throwing a hissy fit and taking it out on the citizens of the USA simple as that. They apparently are not qualified for the job. Makes me wonder how many in Congress can actually balance their own personal budget let alone the countries'.

Well, if the point of a National Park is to preserve, how can you let people run roughshod over areas without proper staffing? Not to mention the liability issues...

I'm also suspect the context of that quote has been lost.

-spence

. It amazes me how little faith you have in people if the government isn't controlling them
I wonder how many of Michelle's 22 staffers have been furloughed.
Next time you talk to Barry could you ask that question for me :) I assume you two have pillow talk
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Pretty embarrassing to be " governed " by this band of egocentric charlatans.
I guess stupid is what stupid does really is true.
Sad , we all deserve better.
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Well, if the point of a National Park is to preserve, how can you let people run roughshod over areas without proper staffing?


-spence

the same enforcement rangers can see to that

easy as that

no need to disrupt peoples lives

Keep the people "Opressed and they will obey"

I just heard that the Canal would be closed for the next week as well. :hidin:

what quote Spence?


there is no defense for this, the government is throwing a hissy fit and taking it out on the citizens of the USA simple as that. They apparently are not qualified for the job. Makes me wonder how many in Congress can actually balance their own personal budget let alone the countries'.

The anonymous quote that was to make it seem this was punitive. I don't buy it...this talking point that Obama's trying to inflict pain on the people to gain support is pretty silly.

-spence

I put a majority of the blame on the current administration and Sally Jewell head of the Department of Interior. Even without funding they could/should have used common sense in areas that are “open air” like the National Mall in DC, and other areas that need not be “physically manned” for access. Even the Normandy American Cemetery in France was closed. Can you imagine travelling to Europe to pay your respects to a friend, loved one, and not being able to access the Cemetery? The President could have easily kept these places open.
For example: At Sachuest Point which is a Federal Wildlife Refuge, the gates are now closed. Now to show you how ridicules this is consider that this same refuge is closed to the general public after sunset, except for those that have a nighttime fishing permit. So the gates are never closed even when the refuge is not officially open. But the Department of Interior decided to close the gates because of funding when they don’t need funding or manpower at Sachuest to keep them open. The administration held the trump card and could have come out of this looking golden if they played it right – but instead they choose to hurt us for political reasons - shame on them.

Lets get rid of them all and start over fresh with some intelligent people for a change!


On a side note, there has been mention of Elizabeth Warren running for persident. I guess if lack of experience is now a qualification for that position the line would go out the door and around the block....TWICE!

We may truly be doomed as a nation, but I still hold out a slim hope that someone will take their head out of their arse and see what they are really doing TO the people instead of FOR the people!

The anonymous quote that was to make it seem this was punitive. I don't buy it...this talking point that Obama's trying to inflict pain on the people to gain support is pretty silly.

-spence
It would be as silly as closing the Whitehouse to tours and then going to Hawaii for vacation.
Never happen!!!
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One of the funniest lines I've heard about these closures:

"If we would turn the southern border into a National Park we would take care of our illegal immigration problem."

In fact people now vote for those who will put the most government money into their pockets. The days of doing what is good for the country and the people as a whole are now gone and only Me Me Me comes into the thinking when people vote. Promise them everything for themselves and they will flock to the polls to vote you in , even if it brings the country down around our ears. This is not Dem or Repub , this is across the board abandonment of what people thing is "right" for what people thing is "personally profitable". Forget truly noble causes or basic right and wrong , we are now governed by people who can't even talk civily about fellow leaders. Senators calling members of the house radicals and nut bags. Sorry to say it but we have totally lost it!

I do believe that Obama , the Republican and Democrats in congress are all trying to make every political situation as painful as possible for the American People for political gain. Philosophically I agree they should all be voted out and new people with concerns for the good of the country elected in their places. Reality tells me that every congressman in RI will be reelected by a land slide by the gimme , gimme people we have degenerated into.

Another great read, thanks men.
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the same enforcement rangers can see to that

easy as that

no need to disrupt peoples lives

They've furloughed a lot of park employees, I think over 300 for the Washington parks alone. Who's going to collect the trash? Respond to incidents? Preserve the park? Contrary to Buck's lack of faith, people are people.

Hey, the whole thing is silly but the shutdown is the problem.

I believe the same thing happened at the parks under Clinton and Bush 41.

-spence

Spence is correct in that the shut downs occurred under Clinton, H Bush, Reagan and Carter as well.
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Who's going to collect the trash? Respond to incidents? Preserve the park?
-spence

Collect the trash when the workers get back, respond to incidents with the security guards that are already there keeping everyone out, no one needs to preserve "open air" in the park, people will understand if the grass is not mowed. Again we all pay property taxes on these open air parks - they belong to us to use anytime.

DZ

Collect the trash when the workers get back, respond to incidents with the security guards that are already there keeping everyone out
DZ

First one I disagree with, but the second is what makes this whole issue so confusing. We shut down the government, but are going to do the following:

Still pay Congress (who is willfully shutting it down in the first place)
Backfill pay for all furloughed employees (seriously??????!!!!!!!!)
Pay for rangers and guards to keep people out of federal parks/land/etc. (in some cases employing people where there weren't guards before)

At least if you are going to "shut down" the government, stop paying EVERYONE so we actually save a little bit of money while the dooshbags in Congress get over their bitch&moan-fest. Don't pick and choose who will and won't get paid.

How in the name of sanity is this a shutdown? Its just theater and BS at the expense of our international image and financial standing as a country.... Up yours Congress... up yours indeed

I apologize if anyone on here is a federal employee who is furloughed, but I don't think their should be back-pay for that... I've been furlouged many times in my life and the only "back pay" I got came from the unemployment office.

Here's an interesting question:

What if we had a large contingency of kayak and boating anglers decide to land on one of these national park beaches? Would we be told that you can't land there because the shore is closed?

Since they only people who will truly be affected by this shutdown are the taxpayers that cannot use the facilities that they PAID to use, why can't we claim time and money lost due to these closures on our taxes come April?
I mean the furloughed (yeah, that's a cute word for paid vacation workers) employees are going to receive their full back pay, so they weren't inconvenienced. The idiotic politicians wouldn't dare cut their own salaries, so they weren't affected.

That leaves US, the public.

If I came across a sign blocking me from my favorite waterway, it wouldn't be there for long.

It is definitely time to remove these ploitical sh*t-turds from office and find people that can and will do what they are supposed to do FOR us and not TO us!!!!!

A lot of good points brought up here. I think a big part of the problem with this country is that the people who give a damn are being outnumbered by the dimwitted, self centered slobs who vote for other dimwitted, self centered slobs based on ideas, promises and morals that are totally ridiculous to begin with.
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Collect the trash when the workers get back, respond to incidents with the security guards that are already there keeping everyone out, no one needs to preserve "open air" in the park, people will understand if the grass is not mowed. Again we all pay property taxes on these open air parks - they belong to us to use anytime.

DZ
I think the law creates a lot of paranoia as it prohibits individuals for working unless specifically called for. Using the on-duty park rangers to provide emergency service for people willingly admitted could be considered crossing the line.

Hey, a lot of this certainly falls into the absurd, but that's kind of the nature of it. For some reason nobody has sought to change the laws after previous shut-downs.

-spence

Well, if the point of a National Park is to preserve, how can you let people run roughshod over areas without proper staffing? Not to mention the liability issues...

I'm also suspect the context of that quote has been lost.

-spence

So the liberal left thinks the "people" will run roughshod..... interesting. And to have to resort to pointing out liability? Please don't insult the American public with that thinking and diversionary talk. These actions are not justified, and have been taken to inflict pain and inconvenience on many while trying to force the other side to bend.

The anonymous quote that was to make it seem this was punitive. I don't buy it...this talking point that Obama's trying to inflict pain on the people to gain support is pretty silly.

-spence

He's dug his heels in and has said he will not negotiate. That is NOT the type of leader this country has counted on for 230 plus years. His trump card did not bring a conciliatory offer from the other side and now it's a game of who will blink first. Americans who voted for him to be in this office get what they deserve, an incompetent figurehead. Not a leader who can surround himself with qualified advisors who are much more qualified than he is....

The Republicans get equal blame in my book as well. They all suck. But the POTUS is the ONE who is supposed to be the dealmaker, armtwister, and negotiator, on behalf of the PEOPLE! This is about him and his agenda, and that is why he has chosen to inflict this pain on the nation as a whole. It gives me the same sick feeling I felt the night he won his first election.....

I only wish we could furlough the college professors who have been filling the youth with all their leftist thinking. Let them feel some of the pain....

How 'bout them striped bass?! lol

He's dug his heels in and has said he will not negotiate. That is NOT the type of leader this country has counted on for 230 plus years. His trump card did not bring a conciliatory offer from the other side and now it's a game of who will blink first. Americans who voted for him to be in this office get what they deserve, an incompetent figurehead...

Actually, I believe the House and Senate dems have tried to get the budget talks into conference 20 times over the past six months in efforts to negotiate.

Instead the GOP killed all attempts up until last week after pushing the House bill through, so they can use the shutdown as leverage.

Right now, it looks like there's enough support get a clean bill through and end the standoff, yet Bohner won't put it to the floor.

Who's the problem again?
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I only wish we could furlough the college professors who have been filling the youth with all their leftist thinking. Let them feel some of the pain....

Funny, I learned to be a leftist while serving my country under a Republican Commander in Chief. As for college. My economics, civics and calc professors, were republucian and not afraid to voice political opinion to students. My sociology professor claimed to be a libertarian. The only 2 dems were composition and literature.
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Actually, I believe the House and Senate dems have tried to get the budget talks into conference 20 times over the past six months in efforts to negotiate.

Instead the GOP killed all attempts up until last week after pushing the House bill through, so they can use the shutdown as leverage.

Right now, it looks like there's enough support get a clean bill through and end the standoff, yet Bohner won't put it to the floor.

Who's the problem again?
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They all are the problem. Boehner doesn't represent me, and has actually alienated me almost to the point that Newt did.... Both sides at fault. But one side is in the leadership position. Wishing there were leaders who would sit down and get it done, as Tip and Reagan used to do behind closed doors....despite their polar differences. Two leaders, who could lead. And their parties would follow their lead.

How 'bout them striped bass?! lol

That's why a politics thread was created, hell i actually like reading these as it gives me a better understanding of the otherside,politics isnt my thing.....
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Sounds like we R on the political thread....should be moved

watching something more educational about apples on Chronicle

Ha, didn't know it was the wrong forum :smash:
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But seriously, how can they legally close open water? And enforce any violations they doll out? Even landowners can't keep the public out of the water in front of their property...
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But seriously, how can they legally close open water? And enforce any violations they doll out? Even landowners can't keep the public out of the water in front of their property...
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Good to get the thread back on track.


http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2013/oct/07/tweets/did-obama-shut-down-ocean-part-shutdown/
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Two leaders, who could lead. And their parties would follow their lead.

How would that go? Ok, Boehner, tea party wants to connect this budget to the unrelated affordable care act, we'll negotiate. Assault weapon ban for 1 year delay of Obamacare? This is a stupid and unprecedented case of extortion. The government may never work again if this is how the parties deal with these issues going forward. As of Wednesday there were 5 republican congressmen in Philadelphia area districts alone calling for a vote on a clean bill. They can't even get their own party to allow a vote. The only reason the government is shutdown is because Boehner lost his sack and as a result the National seashores get closed. This is the main forum, right :jump1:

Right now , the Speaker of the House is more powerful than the President. The circumstances just happen to make it that way. The Speaker has lots of options , the President has only two...negotiate with the Republican controlled house leadership or keep the government closed and default on government debt. The President has never made any effort to form alliances with Republican leaders. Its always been "my way or the highway" when he had both the House and Senate. Well now he doesn't and he's still trying to play "my way or the highway". Unless he can negotiate for another card , he has the losing hand . The big question is how much destruction of the USA are these two pig heads willing to allow before they sit down and work things out by negotiating like they are supposed to.

Vote them all out. Term limits in the congress and senate as well. Oh and make it mandatory for all children or grand children to serve on the front lines of any stupid wars they wage. I hate them all lately.
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While we're at it, let's get rid of that whole "receive a salary for life" bit as well.

This whole thing is just a huge PIA.

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/black-economist-crushes-barack-obamas-govt-shutdown-explains-democrats-fault/#axzz2gyvIc7ZD

maybe this should be in that forum for the other kind of discussions, up to John. I thought it was about the ridiculousness of closing an ocean.

I don't think it matters much whose fault this shutdown is, what matters is getting it hashed out to reach a solution, and if there can't even be talking about it, the the leader of this country is not leading is he? :smash:

half the country is ok with a government that tells them what is good for them, the other half is not ok with it. WTF we are not sheep
WAKE Up America, you too spence.
The country is going down the crapper right before our eyes and we are letting it happen, time to do something about it as opposed to the alternative which may be being placed in holding pens like sheep :wall:

Well Sat night I fished Coast Guard beach in Eastham. No signs no closed gate no nothing (including no fish for me). I actually called local tackle shops before and there was no mention of any closing of access, prompted by the Cape Cod Times article about the Monomoy closure for clammers.

Saw two of them driving down the service road Sunday !!!

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/black-economist-crushes-barack-obamas-govt-shutdown-explains-democrats-fault/#axzz2gyvIc7ZD

and if there can't even be talking about it, the the leader of this country is not leading is he? :smash:

:wall:


Actually, he is leading. It is leadership to stand up and say that this isn't the way it is going to work. One fragment of a political party does not get to use extortion to get their way. Let the cards fall where they may. He has met with Boehner. Boehner has no control over the crazy wing of his party. What the heck is there to negotiate? If the republicans can get a bill through that ends the health care law, so be it.They can't so they act like female canines. Boehner needs to get some cojones and stand up to the wack job sect of his party. THat is the only solution.

Actually, he is leading. It is leadership to stand up and say that this isn't the way it is going to work. One fragment of a political party does not get to use extortion to get their way. Let the cards fall where they may. He has met with Boehner. Boehner has no control over the crazy wing of his party. What the heck is there to negotiate? If the republicans can get a bill through that ends the health care law, so be it.They can't so they act like female canines. Boehner needs to get some cojones and stand up to the wack job sect of his party. THat is the only solution.

Laughable ! Thanks for the chuckle . However it is sad that there are so many that think like this but there are more that disagree with you . Did you forget 2010?
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I love the title of that article Spence: "Did Obama shut down the ocean as part of the shutdown?"

I still can't believe they can enforce this kind of shutdown? In Florida is the ocean considered national park-ish with regular federal presence patrolling? I guess I could see it then...

This also kinda smells like an attempt to blow something out of proportion.. oh wait.. I found this in Spence's link:

"Effective at 6 p.m. on Oct. 1, 2013, both Everglades and Dry Tortugas National Parks will be closed. While our law enforcement rangers will remain on duty, all other administrative activities and visitor services will be discontinued until the shutdown has been lifted. If you have a trip planned for Oct. 1, you must conclude your business within the park by 6 p.m. After today, you may not offer any services within the park's boundaries until further notice. We regret the burden that this will place on your livelihood. We will notify you when the park is reopened."

Laughable ! Thanks for the chuckle . However it is sad that there are so many that think like this but there are more that disagree with you . Did you forget 2010?
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ok. from now on the dems won't allow funding without $10 an hour minimum wage,35 mpg cafe stsndards, ban on coal plants, ban on semiauto weapons. you may find my post funny. i find tea baggers scary as crap for our future.
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Who can survive on $10 an hour anyway? I couldn't.
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Who can survive on $10 an hour anyway? I couldn't.
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I did, and it's not that fun. So I'm confused, is ALL activity on that area of ocean closed to boaters and swimmers? Or is it closed to commercial jobs? I wasn't sure. Because to me, there would be no way to keep regular people off the water, but maybe those services tied into the government, I could see. I'm not in agreement with any of this btw, just curious.

"Effective at 6 p.m. on Oct. 1, 2013, both Everglades and Dry Tortugas National Parks will be closed. While our law enforcement rangers will remain on duty, all other administrative activities and visitor services will be discontinued until the shutdown has been lifted. If you have a trip planned for Oct. 1, you must conclude your business within the park by 6 p.m. After today, you may not offer any services within the park's boundaries until further notice. We regret the burden that this will place on your livelihood. We will notify you when the park is reopened."
I think the nut is the ocean is open but the park is closed. Remember the context for the link was the blogging about the story.

-spence

Did you forget 2010?
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Did you forget 2012?

I still can't believe they can enforce this kind of shutdown? In Florida is the ocean considered national park-ish with regular federal presence patrolling? I guess I could see it then...


The areas in question, yes. Poaching is a huge issue. More than with striped bass up here.

Did you forget 2012?

I hope to someday ;)
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ok. from now on the dems won't allow funding without $10 an hour minimum wage,35 mpg cafe stsndards, ban on coal plants, ban on semiauto weapons. you may find my post funny. i find tea baggers scary as crap for our future.
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You don't even know what the tea party stands for . Most, if they were honest , would admit they share many of the same values.
Your scared of gay people? I find your wording offensive :)
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ok. from now on the dems won't allow funding without $10 an hour minimum wage,35 mpg cafe stsndards, ban on coal plants, ban on semiauto weapons. you may find my post funny. i find tea baggers scary as crap for our future.
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I really like tea bagging.... oh ... wait... sorry wrong thread

Collect the trash when the workers get back, respond to incidents with the security guards that are already there keeping everyone out, no one needs to preserve "open air" in the park, people will understand if the grass is not mowed. Again we all pay property taxes on these open air parks - they belong to us to use anytime.
DZ

Bingo. When I looked at my paystub last Friday, I saw the same federal income tax deduction that I saw previously. They're not taking any less money.

Spence has a point (God forgive me!) in that some parks, which require close supervision, have to be shut down. When I was at Katmai Nat'l Park in Alaska, we were bear viewing, and the rangers were needed to make sure no one got too close to the bears. I can see why that place would have to be shut down.

But in other situations, the government is allocating more resources to keeping people out of the parks, than it would spend if the parks were open normally. And in the case of the Grand Canyon, the state of Arizona offered to pick up the federal tab to keep the park open during the shutdown. The feds said no thanks.

The only conceivable reason? Obama wants to make this as painful as possible, to generate anger against the GOP. How's that for a guy who claimed to be a post-partisan President.

. i find tea baggers scary as crap for our future.
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I can just about guarantee that what you find offensive is not what the Tea Party is actually saying...but rather, what the folks at the lefty TV station you watch, claim that the Tea Party is saying.

Fiscal responsibility (take what's fair, use it to help as many as possible)
Strong national defense
limited federal government
protection of guaranteed liberties
power of the free market
sanctity of all human life
charity/sacrifice for our neighbors in need

Yeah, that's a repugnant, radical agenda all right...

Wow, how did I miss this for so long......I Cast Ye Off to the the Pit of Despair

But in other situations, the government is allocating more resources to keeping people out of the parks, than it would spend if the parks were open normally. And in the case of the Grand Canyon, the state of Arizona offered to pick up the federal tab to keep the park open during the shutdown. The feds said no thanks.

The only conceivable reason? Obama wants to make this as painful as possible, to generate anger against the GOP. How's that for a guy who claimed to be a post-partisan President.
The other conceivable reason is that it would likely be a violation of federal law.

I'm not sure just because parks are owned by the Government means the taxpayer can access at any time. Parks have rules...

-spence

You don't even know what the tea party stands for . Most, if they were honest , would admit they share many of the same values.
Your scared of gay people? I find your wording offensive :)
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That is pretty out there. Many of them are women. Michelle Bachmann for example, no? Trust me, what they stand for is clear to the great majority of Americans, including most other republican officials who don't necessarily agree, but are afraid for their political careers. See 2010.

That is pretty out there. Many of them are women. Michelle Bachmann for example, no? Trust me, what they stand for is clear to the great majority of Americans, including most other republican officials who don't necessarily agree, but are afraid for their political careers. See 2010.

So you're comfortable calling a successful woman a "tea bagger" Got it.
As far as the rest of what you said , I'm all ears.... What do they stand for that you disagree with ?
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So you're comfortable calling a successful woman a "tea bagger" Got it.
As far as the rest of what you said , I'm all ears.... What do they stand for that you disagree with ?
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Come on Buck, even you have to admit she's totally crazy.

-spence

Well, if this ain't a slap in the face. National Mall is closed unless you go to this:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/7/park-service-oks-immigration-reform-rally-closed-n/

This administration really knows how to stick it to you.

So you're comfortable calling a successful woman a "tea bagger" Got it.

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Tea party owns it and started it with "tea bag a lib". Sorry it offends you :rollem:

You don't even know what the tea party stands for .Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Unfortunately...I don't even think the Tea party knows what it stands for......3 different Sites and 3 different definitions of what they stand for....even Jims listing is different from what the 3 websites say...

http://www.teaparty.org/about-us/

http://www.teapartypatriots.org/about/

http://www.teapartyexpress.org/mission

Rotfl!!!!
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To me the tea party is full of a bunch of middle class blue collar small business owners who think that they are a hell of a lot wealthier than they really are and who think that they are the ones who are being screwed by government and it's hand outs to the poor. But in reality they are being #^&#^&#^&#^&ed sideways by the 1% who actually run this country and who are using the tea party as a tool to distract from the real problem. The big lie.
The big problem is that corporate America has everything made over seas. Millions of Americans manufacturing jobs are gone. They need help and when they go to the government looking for help, they are looked at by a lot of Americans as freeloaders.
Address the main problem. Our back bone has been broken.
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Come on Buck, even you have to admit she's totally crazy.

-spence

I've married worse lol
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I've married worse lol
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Well, that explains a lot :D

Heard recently today that clammers in Revere were told by feds to stop digging....clammers went to the city and asked about that ...city says feds have no jurisdiction between high and low water mark

I know Spence knows the answer...true or false Spence?

I've married worse lol
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:rotf2: Now I am getting back out of this forum while I can.

Heard recently today that clammers in Revere were told by feds to stop digging....clammers went to the city and asked about that ...city says feds have no jurisdiction between high and low water mark

I know Spence knows the answer...true or false Spence?
Don't know the story but unless it was a national park I'm not sure how they could do it.

Why would anyone want to eat clams from Revere?!?!?
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Unfortunately...I don't even think the Tea party knows what it stands for......3 different Sites and 3 different definitions of what they stand for....even Jims listing is different from what the 3 websites say...

http://www.teaparty.org/about-us/

http://www.teapartypatriots.org/about/

http://www.teapartyexpress.org/mission


they all say the same thing just worded differently, they are separate organizations, what the hell is so confusing?...we have 50 different states with 50 different state constitutions as well...do they not know what they stand for because they don't read the same? if you want to be a lock step standardized, centralized government controlled robot, join the democrat party...but first...tell me which of those tea party type principles from any of the sources you might disagree with:uhuh:

To me the tea party is full of a bunch of middle class blue collar small business owners who think that they are a hell of a lot wealthier than they really are and who think that they are the ones who are being screwed by government and it's hand outs to the poor. But in reality they are being #^&#^&#^&#^&ed sideways by the 1% who actually run this country and who are using the tea party as a tool to distract from the real problem. The big lie.
The big problem is that corporate America has everything made over seas. Millions of Americans manufacturing jobs are gone. They need help and when they go to the government looking for help, they are looked at by a lot of Americans as freeloaders.
Address the main problem. Our back bone has been broken.
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hey Eben, if you could conveniently remove these people, those that are left that espouse our founding principles the principles from TDF's sources, just imagine our debt, spending, expanding social programs, economy without the pushback...do you ever consider that? Our back is broken by unsustainable debt and overwhelming unfunded obligations and a sick desire by those running things to control every aspect of American life, they have the tools now...you aren't getting your freedom back.....you might think you are free but you are a slave to the bureaucracy now, and it will get worse because the debt isn't going away and those that are expecting those obligations have the power to demand it....and many say in Europe..."you can get by, but you can't get ahead".....

...but first...tell me which of those tea party type principles from any of the sources you might disagree with:uhuh:

You can start with grass roots, what a joke.
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Scott. I don't agree with either side.
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they all say the same thing just worded differently,

No they don't...

The second one lists 3 core principles.

FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY

CONSTITUTIONALLY LIMITED GOVERNMENT

FREE MARKET ECONOMICS

The 1st one throws in

Repeal Obamacare

And the third one adds

Illegal Aliens are illegal
A strong military is essential
Gun Ownership is sacred
English as our core language is required.

And then Jim threw in

Sanctity of all human life
Charity/Sacrifice for our neighbors in need

The Republican Party has their platform and so does the Democratic Party .....so don't you think on a national stage they may want to get aligned.

United we stand....

And no I wasn't confused and never said I had a problem with anything listed......I just made an observation. That they are all over the place on their mission statement(s)
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No they don't...

The second one lists 3 core principles.

FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY

CONSTITUTIONALLY LIMITED GOVERNMENT

FREE MARKET ECONOMICS

The 1st one throws in

Repeal Obamacare

And the third one adds

Illegal Aliens are illegal
A strong military is essential
Gun Ownership is sacred
English as our core language is required.

And then Jim threw in

Sanctity of all human life
Charity/Sacrifice for our neighbors in need

The Republican Party has their platform and so does the Democratic Party .....so don't you think on a national stage they may want to get aligned.

United we stand....

And no I wasn't confused and never said I had a problem with anything listed......I just made an observation. That they are all over the place on their mission statement(s)
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you mocked them saying they might not know what they stand for, none of those are mutually exclusive, they were established in their "local" organizations and reflect their "local" values, there is no reason why they would need to align as you seem to think, there is no national organization that I'm aware of... they support local candidates....you want them to be more like the republicans and democrats?

where is the problem in that list?

I think we mock for the sake of mocking ignoring and enabling the real culprits....note Spence's sneering and consider what he supports

Scott. I don't agree with either side.
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it's not about agreeing with one side or the other Eben, it's about recognizing that the Progressive Democrats are on a steady march toward big...no huge government statism, the rest of the democrats and a large number of republicans are on a slightly slower march toward big government...the indebtedness and unfunded liabilities that we are drowning in are the result of big government programs that were poorly conceived, mismanaged and corrupted by the same people that we've now given discretion and authority over our healthcare system (expecting different results?????)...these people cannot even pass a budget!!! the only faction of either party that is calling for fiscal sanity and a return the governing principles that established this republic are those that you refer to broadly as "To me the tea party is full of a bunch of middle class blue collar small business owners who think that they are a hell of a lot wealthier than they really are and who think that they are the ones who are being screwed by government"......got news for ya.....the regulatory state is screwing these businesses, government and those that support it's expansion or live at it's trough don't have much compassion for those that toil to fund it and them....the jobs that you complain have gone overseas are never coming back and even more will leave as the regulatory state expands and the desire to try to maintain a business with the government breathing down your neck constantly becomes less attractive.....

what exactly, if anything, do you agree with ?

Scott all I know is that the tea party points fingers at big government and the poor as a big problem. The bigger problem is the fact that there are so many good jobs that are now gone. Outsourced. Poof. Just think what this country would be like if that never happened. Who's to blame for that??
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Scott all I know is that the tea party points fingers at big government and the poor as a big problem. The bigger problem is the fact that there are so many good jobs that are now gone. Outsourced. Poof. Just think what this country would be like if that never happened. Who's to blame for that??
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the Tea Party "points fingers at the poor as a big problem"...need to digest that one for a bit.....Eben..if you are working at your studio and maybe have a few employees and you discover that your local government is going to determine what you must pay your employees and what benefits you must provide and what they must include and raise your taxes and taxes on your sales and mail you new regulations to comply with on a regular basis and fine you for non-compliance on an arbitrary basis and you learn that you can relocate your business and avoid much of this are your really going to stay? it's why businesses relocate within the country and why businesses relocated off our shores...blame the busy bodies that think the purpose of government is to micro manage every aspect of life and business and who think their purpose is to dream up new and novel legislation, necessary or not to fix existent or non-existent problems to justify their own existence....whatever problems you want to cite or attribute to the private sector in terms of corruption, fraud, nepotism, favoritism and criminal behavior etc. pales in comparison to that which exists in the structures of government and public sector...and the products that the government apparently best produces are debt and dependence ....you are barking up the wrong tree

Scott all I know is that the tea party points fingers at big government and the poor as a big problem. The bigger problem is the fact that there are so many good jobs that are now gone. Outsourced. Poof. Just think what this country would be like if that never happened. Who's to blame for that??
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Scott explains it well concisely and specifically in a "conservative" way which may not appeal to you. Let me add to his comments in a more generalized somewhat esoteric way that might appeal to a "liberal."

Freedom is the "blame for that". Just as freedom is the blame for creating the jobs and wealth that were lost and for what the country was like before they were lost and what it would be if they weren't. And it will be freedom who will be to blame for the restoration of jobs and wealth if freedom is allowed to flourish.

But if freedom is too messy, too inefficient, too unfair, and too uncontrollable for the ruling class to allow in sufficient quantity to flourish as it must, then the diminishing of freedom in order to give those who control the power to direct our lives in THE way they proscribe, for their version of what is good for all, then the lack of freedom will be the blame for more dependence and wealth/job crushing debt.

This thread is gayer than Facebook.
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no freakin WAY ~~~~~ !!!!!
nuthin is GAYer than "in your Facebook"

Sit on my Facebook
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you mocked them saying they might not know what they stand for, none of those are mutually exclusive, they were established in their "local" organizations and reflect their "local" values, there is no reason why they would need to align as you seem to think, there is no national organization that I'm aware of... they support local candidates....you want them to be more like the republicans and democrats?


That would be fine if they were local organizations....but all 3 sites I listed bill themselves as a National Organization. And they want to be taken seriously on the National stage.

Take a kid who has just hit voting age...he is trying to be responsible and do the research to find his political identity, He goes to the Republican Party website and looks at their Platform, He goes to the Democrat Website and looks at their platform....then starts to look at the Tea Party and finds dozens of websites that are all over the place on what their platform is.

Its been said before....most voters are stupid....so why make it anymore difficult to them to identify with the Tea Party.

To me its a Marketing thing.....they should fire their marketing guy cause he's terrible :hee:

Scott all I know is that the tea party points fingers at big government and the poor as a big problem. The bigger problem is the fact that there are so many good jobs that are now gone. Outsourced. Poof. Just think what this country would be like if that never happened. Who's to blame for that??
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Who's to blame? IMO the American people are, it all could have been avoided if Ross Perot won the election PERIOD.

That would be fine if they were local organizations....but all 3 sites I listed bill themselves as a National Organization. And they want to be taken seriously on the National stage.

Take a kid who has just hit voting age...he is trying to be responsible and do the research to find his political identity, He goes to the Republican Party website and looks at their Platform, He goes to the Democrat Website and looks at their platform....then starts to look at the Tea Party and finds dozens of websites that are all over the place on what their platform is.

Its been said before....most voters are stupid....so why make it anymore difficult to them to identify with the Tea Party.

To me its a Marketing thing.....they should fire their marketing guy cause he's terrible :hee:

apples and oranges, they are not political parties as the democrat and repub party, they are issue oriented organizations....they may endorse candidates of any affiliation....just like the various unions...I'm sure that there is different wording in their various charters....you are attempting to lump anyone who identifies as a tea party member or affiliate as if there is one national organization and there is not...I'd prefer that they focus locally and not become a large centrally run from Washington organization lest they become one more spoke in the broken wheel...and if a youngster feeling their way or anyone else for that matter goes to those websites and is confused regarding what they claim to stand for....then they are stupid...and need a US History refresher course:uhuh:

go to this site and click any state on the right.....a myriad of local organizations..

http://www.teaparty911.com/info/locations/rhode_island.htm

the difference between the tea party types and the unions being that the tea party types are organizing locally and nationally to protect their freedoms and the union types organize locally and nationally to protect their place at the trough.....


this is not accurate:

" that are all over the place on what their platform is."

Unfortunately...I don't even think the Tea party knows what it stands for......3 different Sites and 3 different definitions of what they stand for....even Jims listing is different from what the 3 websites say...

http://www.teaparty.org/about-us/

http://www.teapartypatriots.org/about/

http://www.teapartyexpress.org/mission

True. There is no one organization that heads it up. But ids there anything on these sites, that contradicts anyhting on my list? I think my list is a pretty accurate reflection of the core values, and I'd like to know what about that Zimmy finds offensive. He has been asked that a few times, and I didn't see a response...

I think we mock for the sake of mocking ignoring and enabling the real culprits....note Spence's sneering and consider what he supports

We mock, because it's easier to mock than it is to explain why the core values on my list are not in the best interests of the country. That's why we mock.

Scott all I know is that the tea party points fingers at big government and the poor as a big problem. The bigger problem is the fact that there are so many good jobs that are now gone. Outsourced. Poof. Just think what this country would be like if that never happened. Who's to blame for that??
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"I know is that the tea party points fingers at big government and the poor as a big problem"

You don't "know that", because it's patently false. We don't view the poor as a "problem", if we did, why do studies show that conservatives give more money to charity than liberals? What we see as a 'problem', i sthe liberal approach to poverty, which is to get the poor addicted to welfare, and this make it almost impossible to escape poverty. We want to help lift people out of poverty. Our approach, instead of giving them cash (which many use to buy cigarettes and alcohol), i sto help them aquire skills to better themselves. At least, that's the best solution for those that have the ability to help themselves. Is that offensive to you?

So whoever told you that the tea party views poor peope as a "problem", lied to you.

"The bigger problem is the fact that there are so many good jobs that are now gone. Outsourced. Poof. Just think what this country would be like if that never happened"

If that nevcer happened, then we'd all be paying twice as much for everything we buy. The economy became globalized, and China's cost of doing business is a lot lower than ours. One could argue that many Americans are better off for it, because many items are so much cheaper than they used to be.

The problem is that we need a better structure to get people the skills they need to transfer from manufacturing to the jobs that do exist...in another thread, somneone correctly mentioned that companies can't find qualified machinists. There are tons of healthcare jobs as well. Those are the fields that kids need to prepare for.

"Who's to blame for that??"

No one. It just happened, and there was no way to stop it.

we are leaving a mess for our children and their children, they will be forced to pay or suffer the consequences of inevitable collapse, and they will pay because they will not be allowed the choices nor enjoy the opportunity and are exposed through technology more than we ever have been...the sophists will blame the private sector for not creating enough wealth and employment or pay their fair share, the cynical will blame the tea party types for not doing enough or being organized with slick national marketing to improve their image and compete with the national media intent on tarnishing their image and influence, the philosopher kings will go about their business in Washington, spending millions on vacations funded through tax dollars while chiding the nation about shared sacrifice......such a state:uhuh:

we are leaving a mess for our children and their children, they will be forced to pay or suffer the consequences of inevitable collapse, and they will pay because they will not be allowed the choices nor enjoy the opportunity and are exposed through technology more than we ever have been...the sophists will blame the private sector for not creating enough wealth and employment or pay their fair share, the cynical will blame the tea party types for not doing enough or being organized with slick national marketing to improve their image and compete with the national media intent on tarnishing their image and influence, the philosopher kings will go about their business in Washington, spending millions on vacations funded through tax dollars while chiding the nation about shared sacrifice......such a state:uhuh:

We will indeed have much to answer for. We have known about this problem for decades, but lacked the political will to make the small sacrifices that would have solved the problem 40 years ago. As a result, we will be dumping about $100 trillion of debt on our kids, who had absolutely zero say in how that came to pass. The Tea Party doesn't like that prospect. In response, liberals say that we hate old people and poor people. Even Nebe believes that, and he isn't a kooky radical. But he has been duped by the liberal narrative.

The good news is, when the crash happens, and the 20 year-olds look to figure out just what happened, they will see that people like Paul Ryan said "gee, we need to right this ship", and then they will see that the next day, liberals made a commercial of Ryan pushing an old lady off a cliff. That generation will know who tried to solve the problem, and who tried to buy votes today at the cost of dumping all that debt on subsequent generations. In a fair world, that will be the death of liberalism for that generation. When the crash happens, even Rachael Maddow will have a tough time denying that Paul Ryan was absolutely correct. She'll still deny it, but it will be harder for her to do it.