Andy, I didn't mean to hijack your question to SeaWolf by any means in the "new surf rod" thread, but it brought up a question that I had about guide layouts, and thought it might be better to start a new thread.
Ive always used standard production rods like Lami's and St Croix's for my surf fishing needs, but am planning a rod build over the winter, and was hoping to gain some insight into what is thought to be the best layout for guides. I understand it's a very vague question, and there are many variables that go into making the decision, from what reel it will be paired to, braid vs. mono, the weights of the plugs or lures you'll be using, to even the looks of the rod.
Although I haven't made a final decision, I am leaning toward a 10' Rainshadow. Weight is my ultimate goal, and I fish braid almost exclusively with plugs in the 1-4 oz range. It will be paired with a VS200. I was looking for input from you guys on pros and cons, and ideas for the best guides and layout/ spacing.. My budget will top out around $350. Thanks in advance.

No worries, I was wondering myself if the cost/benefit would be worth having it done over in a NGC guide set up.
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With so many options available, I was just looking for the benefits of different layouts.

Dave I've used k frames and LC guides on a bunch of rods I built the last two years.

I built two rods, same blank one with k frames and the other with LC guides, I find myself fishibg the LC guide layout more.

Rod is more responsive and crisp.

It really depends on the action, line, application, for the guide layout.

Nice thing now is most companies have some basic guidelines available and some software on the internet takes a lot of the guess work out of it.

If you're looking for blanks I would contact saltheart on here and see if he has anything available if he doesn't it's worth the ride to CMS to talk to Eric and Charlie , plus they always have an epic sale in the winter
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Your best option when figuring in cost/weight will be Alconite K guides probably starting with a 30L and dropping fast to size 8 or 10 runners.

For that size spool you can build something a bit lighter that will cast as well (but not necessarily better) using Titanium LC guides (20-12m-10 into 8 runners) but the expense is substantial (@ $180 for guides). Regular LCAG guides are heavier and I'm not sure they offer a big advantage over K guides but they are pretty cheap for the three sizes mentioned and you might consider buying three to try them against the K guides and see which you prefer.

If you decide to try the LC route pm me and I can give you some guidelines on where to position them as a starting point for test casting.

Hey Chef, how you been bud!? Thanks for the info.

The build is going through CMS, as I just really like their work, and are great people. As far as guides go, I have been leaning toward the K frames, as weight is a big factor for me like the way the rod reacts under a load with them. I understand there are formulas for guide layouts and this is where my confusion is coming from. Sizes of guides, and spacing, adding more or less to affect flight or action, has just become a little confusing. I guess I will do as you suggested and stick within the guidelines laid out by the individual manufacturer and keep it simple.
Thanks for the help, I may call you as things get closer with a question. Hope you're doing good. Dave

Thanks George , I appreciate the feedback. One of my points of confusion comes from the number of guides, say from 8 to 10 as you suggested. Most of my production rods have 7-8, what effect does the extra runner guides have? Is it strictly to increase casting distance, or is it to help load the rod more evenly due to the choice of blank, or both?

Sorry George I just re-read your post and saw that you were referring to the SIZE of the guides and not #, my apologies.

massbass, to me the single most important reason to get a custom rod vs a production rod is that the rod you want isn't available the way you want it as a production rod, which isn't always true in recent years. COF designs have been replaced w/ NGC and LR designs, which lightened rods and made them more responsive. rod grips have come a long way since the old EVA or plain-jane cork tape designs. distances of where reel seats are located are more realistic today. i can see that as one of the major reasons to get a custom today as not everyone is built the same. the other item to consider, and it's a big one, is rod warranties. those are rarely considered when buying a rod until the day the rod breaks. guide frame and ring materials now are relatively inexpensive, light, and much better quality, but that is another thing to consider - what is the rod manufacturer using for rod materials? fuji? pacbay? other? quality comes with a price.
i'm not even adding in guide wrap colors, butt wraps, cork ring grip options, etc.
in your case, with a rainshadow, i don't even think they make production rods, so you would have to go custom.

You make some great points SeaWolf, especially with regards to blank warranties on a build... something that should be at the top of your list, and wasn't on mine. I'll need to look at Batson's policies before I settle on that blank, or any blank, and begin a build. This will be only my second custom build, and first surf rod, as my other was a boat rod from Canal B&T. Your point about cost is well received also, as these rods come with a price tag. But I think as you eluded to, I can make this rod tailored to me. Age, injuries, and fishing styles have changed since my early days, and although I'm not old, I like the ability to make "changes" that can lengthen my time in the surf and make it more enjoyable and productive.

First , if your budget is $350 for the rod , you should get a Century or Lami , not a Batson.

The guide size/spacing thing is easy as far as Cone of flight vs NGC or Fuji Concept. You should get an adjusted NGC/Fuji Concept layout.

Third. Let the builder decide what sizes and spacing for your reel and line and butt length. That's what you are paying for in a custom.
Fourth. If there were a high 20 ring K frame then I believe LC guides would be discontinued. Its only the LC20 gathering guide that has any utility in rod building anymore now that the K frames are available. To properly use the LC gathering guide it must be pushed way up the rod. This IMO might add very slightly to casting performance if you are a casting expert but does almost nothing for the average or even above average caster. For the slight chance you could pick up 5 yards in your cast , you give up fish fighting power with that first guide moved way up the rod.

Use BKWAG guides , let the builder determine how many and were to place then using a parabolic equation (based on stress test results) adjusted NGC/Fuji concept guide layout. If your builder doesn't know what any of that means , you are not buying at the current rod building state of the art level at this time.

Saltheart, thanks for the info and suggestions, although your expertise in this area far exceeds mine and I was a little lost at the end, hence your suggestion to leave it to the experts... agreed.:smash:

I am only in the "kicking the tires stage" of this build and have a lot of homework to do before I settle on a blank and final layout. I'm planning to get down to see Chef and the Century crew in Nov. in Charlestown as I am interested in a couple of their blanks too, particularly the new rods they have coming out. Also the winter shows to see whats out there for deals.
You suggested the adjusted NGC/Fuji Concept layout for whatever rod I choose. Does this change from manufacturer/manufacturer or does it more pertain to the individual rods action? If that makes sense. Also, the KWAG frames I saw were only stainless steel, do they come black also? Thanks for the input.

The BKWAG frames are stainless steel painted black. The black painted stainless are the most common Fuji guide frames.

The layouts vary with individual rod action , reel seat placement , reel and butt length. The reason it varies with action is because of how it bends in the stress test. The reaction in the stress test varies based on the reel seat location. It does not vary by manufacturer but the action varies by manufacturer and materials and taper , etc but in fact it all comes out in the wash when you see the stress test bend. based on the stress test you adjust the raw placements spit out by the basic NGC or Fuji Concept guidelines.

Thanks Saltheart, it makes alot more sense to me now.

Do you have a site, or anywhere that I could view some of your work? You seem to come highly recommended.:uhuh:

I used to have pictures online but that slipped away. All the pictures show is artwork. On your budget of $350 built on a nice blank with all the Fuji components and the shrink wrap handle , you won't have much money for fancy artwork.

I honestly don't want fancy, and am looking for a simpler, stealthier, looking rod... black with black wraps.

Lots of guys are going black on black these days. Black wraps come out flawless and the look is very professional.

Mike built me an Century S2 conventional and a Allstar 1208 spinning this year and I can honestly say they are my favorite rods.

Mike built me an Century S2 conventional and a Allstar 120r spinning this year and I can honestly say they are my favorite rods.

I've heard his work is top notch, and hope to maybe give him the build during the winter if he wants it.

I've had my eye on the Century SS1265 spinning, and after a chat with ChefChris, feel like this might be the rod I'm looking for. Anyone else have experience with this rod... input?

I've heard his work is top notch, and hope to maybe give him the build during the winter if he wants it.

I've had my eye on the Century SS1265 spinning, and after a chat with ChefChris, feel like this might be the rod I'm looking for. Anyone else have experience with this rod... input?

Whenever you are ready ! :)

Thanks Mike!!...:soon: