Looking for an elite rod builder in Rhode Island. Using 11321m with titanium concept guides wit a VS300 #65 braid. I have been running this stick since it has been available with TSVG guides. My sticks are beat up and it is time to upgrade. No need to tell me why I should not do it, just looking for some one that is the most capable of taking the time to lay out the 50 stripper and the rest of the ultra technical aspect of the job. I am going to cut down 2 1132 1m's also to 10' and 2 11321m's to 9'. They are all getting titanium concept guides. Had a guy do one 11 footer for me and it is garbage. Time needs to be spent loading the rod and getting the right placement, then tape the guides in place and let me throw it to see if it needs to be tweaked. The reel seat and grips are a no brainer because I know exactly what I want there. I don't care about fancy wraps because the rods are going to be fished not showcased. Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

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My post was all about using LC guides. If you are talking about a standard KW guide layout there is no end of good builders to help you. You will not need a 50 collector, however.

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My post was all about using LC guides. If you are talking about a standard KW guide layout there is no end of good builders to help you. You will not need a 50 collector, however.
Don't hold back.
Not to hijack the thread but would like to know more.

5/0
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In RI contact mike aka saltheart here on the site.
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Don't hold back.
Not to hijack the thread but would like to know more.

5/0
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Alright. This gets complicated and expensive, however.

The issue is one of ring size and guide height weight. With braid you can cast well through a 16 or 20 mm collector guide PROVIDED IT IS HIGH ENOUGH OFF THE BLANK AND FAR ENOUGH OUT. The 30 and 40mm rings (never mind a 50mm ring!) we are used to serve no purpose to control the braid but are all we have in standard guides to provide the necessary height to limit line slap. This creates a problem since if you start with a 40mm KW guide you need a bunch more big ringed guides to get down to the blank and that means your choke point (the spot where you can switch to small running guides to keep weight down is way out near the tip....really just a foot or two from where you'd be if you used the old cone of flight system. There is a better way to do it using LC guides that have small rings and lots of height.

Right now, I think the best way to build an 11ft surf rod uses titanium low rider guides (T-LC) for the first three guides and then Titanium KW or KT (T-KW or T-KT, which are single foot) as small runners. I can vouch from test casting and fishing that this system works well a medium sized spool, such as a ZB25 (or VS200 or Stella 8000 I suppose although I do not own either of the latter reels)......and those reels are plenty powerful enough for striped bass. For bigger spools like a 706, VS 300 I have too little experience to make any claims. For 10 foot rods and full sized reels like the above you can make it work but I think casting distance starts to suffer. With smaller reels like a 5000 or 6000 then most definitely it is worth trying the LC collector on 10 or even 9 ft rods.

Setting a rod up like this, particularly a slow action rod like a GSB, will let it cast as well as any other layout, but be much more tip lighter and responsive than any other guide system (it gets cost prohibitive, however, unless you are building for yourself since the guides end up costing about $180). Be clear, however, that LC guides ARE NOT GOING TO INCREASE YOUR CASTING DISTANCE ON AN 11FT ROD. The reason to use them is to get a lighter, quicker rod.

The way I do it is to use a T-LC 20mm collector just far enough out to prevent line slap (it does not have to be the 47" that gets thrown around in most low rider discussions) then transition the line down into the blank through a T-LC 12m and T-LC 8-10 guide, then switch to small (usually T-KW 8's ) runners out to the tip (usually 5-6 of them). This keeps guide size (and thereby weight) to a minimum and much below what is obtained using the old NGC formula's that people still use as "state of the art" but are actually compromise setups designed to work with mono which is not something I care about or need.

The system I am using turns out to antedate but strongly resemble a new guide system that is being advanced by Fuji called the "K-concept".......but one that so far can only effectively be done using their new high version small ring K-LH single foot guides, which look too fragile for most surf use.

Hopefully soon, maybe even this winter, Fuji will put out double footed tall small ringed guides (i.e, KW-H) which I think will then become the "best" way to build a surf rod......best meaning light, responsive, and tough.........not prioritizing weed or knot clearance or line/spool size compromises. These will be much cheaper than titanium low riders and probably not much heavier. Until then, however, using KW guides on your rod as a collector and transition guides requires big rings and large guides to get the height you need.....and that comes at the expense of weight, particularly in the mid section of the rod.

Again, I am not recommending everyone else go out and spend a fortune to build a rod with titanium low rider guides. I think Fuji will release higher KW guides soon and they will produce rods as good or better than what you can do with low riders currently. Also, the present KW guides and layouts still produce perfectly good rods that most people are happy with and shelling out $180 to get titanium low riders and runners/tip may build you a nicer rod, but one that you will never recoup the expense if Fuji does produce cheaper equally effective KW-H guides. Finally, the larger the spool the less effective the LC guides become on rods 11 feet and under (on longer rods where you can put the first guide way out there it is a different story and LC guides are the standard).

In the case of the OP, he makes it clear he is not looking for alternatives, but what he is proposing (a 50mm T-KW) is extraordinarily expensive (the big T-KW guides run near $100 each) and completely unnecessary for braid (the huge KW guides are meant for tuna spinners where the first guide has to be 18" from a BIG spool). I think he'd do best to save his VS 300 for tuna, get a ZB25, and meet me at the canal to see what a well laid out GSB1321M can do. Either that or wait a year and see what Fuji comes out with.

I will say that his choice of rod blank is right on. A lightly built GSB1321M is one helluva impressive tool for striped bass fishing in the rocks.

^ Awesome...thanks

Very nice post N

Not to high jack this thread but is there a significant cost fdifference between running the present KW guides versus the titanium?? And would both run a similar layout on this particular rod?? Thanks in advance
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Not to high jack this thread but is there a significant cost fdifference between running the present KW guides versus the titanium??
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Yes, the titanium is way more expensive.

For example, just pricing 4 guides a KW40,25,16,10
in steel alconite they would run about $31
in titanium alconite about $146
in titanium sic about $172

Figure another extra above steel cost of $30-40 total for 5-6 small runners in titanium, and about $15 extra more for a titanium tip (which uses a steel tube by the way) and you probably pay a premium of about 150-180 bucks to use titanium.

On the other hand if you build your own rods, $150 bucks for something you'll use for years is well worth it and the end cost is about what you'd pay for a custom built with cheaper guides (the resale value on the custom will hold better, however, unless you are a very good rod builder which most of us are not).

The problem is that guide systems are likely changing soon. If/when Fuji comes out with KW-H small ring high guides the weight difference between them and titanium will likely not be enough to justify the expense (the smaller the guide the smaller the weight saving with titanium). THere is also this new 'microwave' guide system that I have not experimented with.

You (or more likely I ) can also make too big a deal out of small weight differences. The present alconite K guides (KWAG) are pretty light compared to old hardaloy HVG's, and starting with smaller collectors and running guides saves weight as well. I love the rods I've built with Titanium low riders as collector and transition guides, but I've cast friend's rods built with KWAG guides that are very nice as well.

Lots of other factors come into play when talking about effective rod weight while fishing. How you hold the rod, how big the reel is, how long the butt is, how heavy a plug you are retrieving, and how big/strong/young you are are all factors that make a difference and don't change with guide choice.

Thanks for all the input Numbskull. Looks like I have a lot to think about. Wish they never discontinued the tsvg guides, I had my stick dialed in with them and was very happy with the way it preformed.

Great thread. Thanks N
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How much of a weight difference is it??
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Are you looking for someone to build the rod for you or to advise on guide placement? I am kind of confused by your post.

Thanks for all the input Numbskull. Looks like I have a lot to think about. Wish they never discontinued the tsvg guides, I had my stick dialed in with them and was very happy with the way it preformed.

If you were happy with the HVG guides, then someone like Saltheart or Seawolf ought to be able to easily build you a rod using KWAG's that performs even better and is lighter than what you have. For a big spooled 300VS that is the way I would go. I wouldn't go the titanium route because the KWAG's are pretty light to start and ought to end up tip lighter than the old build you are used to. You are bound to be happy with the result, and down the road a few years you can get a new blank built up with whatever fad has proven itself over time.

Ive had some rods built by Rob at Wickford Rodworks and they were great.

I second Mike AKA Saltheart. Built 2 rods for me last year and they are both super sticks.

In RI contact mike aka saltheart here on the site.
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Saltheart - Mike does awesome work. I won a rod wrapped by him 6-7 years ago and it is beautiful