Anyone know if any studies have been done on release mortality of larger fish weighed on a Boga style scale? I have one and used to use it on fish I caught and planned to keep. I avoid using them on fish that I plan to release as I just assume that hanging a large fish by the lower jaw to get the weight would have an adverse effect on the fish. I got a good fish few nights ago, a new PB based on length, that I released and now not knowing the weight is kind of eating at me. I didn't even have a camera with me which I usually do and my phone battery was dead. Just wondering if my concerns over weighing fish to be released are valid. Thanks for any input.

As I do not have any data to back this up I cannot give a definitive answer but I agree a large fish taken out of water at any point is much less likely to live. I do t think that the physicality of the boga is a good thing but in combination and stress I would say its not a good thing
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this is very good, they touch on bogas and lip grips

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5t1vYC7Xfc

Years ago I would tag large bass for the littoral society and I always weighed them on a hand scale. Had some recaptures so I know they can and do survive. If you do it quickly I feel there isn't a problem. I was also fortunate the be in some epic blitzs of large bass and many were weighed and then released - I can count on one finger the amount I found dead afterwards. If you're still on the hedge I recommend getting a muskie cradle but it would provide logistical issues with carrying it around.
Whatever option you choose is still better than putting it in a bass coffin to get weighed.

Thanks.

DZ, this one actually had remnants on a tag on it, but not enough left to read. Didn't look cut, just rotted away.

I think I just need to get used to thinking in inches, not pounds. Pounds just has more appeal for some reason, probably nostalgic.

Thanks.

DZ, this one actually had remnants on a tag on it, but not enough left to read. Didn't look cut, just rotted away.

I think I just need to get used to thinking in inches, not pounds. Pounds just has more appeal for some reason, probably nostalgic.

Well, if it were one of my tagged fish you probably released a 70 ;)

I know what you mean about inches and pounds. The old guard never talked in inches. Still hard for me to comprehend someone telling me they took a 40 last night and I get all pumped for them and then realize they're speaking in inches.

i wish. not quite 70. maybe 50 which is the only reason its bugging me, long time goal as it is for many.

I used to use a boga but stopped about 3 or 4 yrs ago. I'm not sure a large bass' internals fair well w/o water supporting its body or its entire body weight hanging off its lip can be good- I could be wrong but that's my current train of thought.

Congrats on fish.
Get the girth and length and do the math. Usually within a couple lbs. I couldn't be bothered to lug one of those boga things around.
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Never really understood the need to hang a fish just to get a weight. If it's a substantial fish I do a quick tape and let her go.
Figure it's already been under enough stress.
But that's just me.
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Great question and dilemma presented by Mr. Clogstan and this thread. Congrats, incidentally, on both the Catch, and the Release...C&R.

I weigh my beached bass...not all, but a lot; and I take relentless SH..from the Numbskull for doing so. But I just cannot help it. I am an engineer by inclination, and if I do not obtain objective evidence, I WAY over exaggerate myself...even after all these years. Recent Example: 40" but only a little over 20. That's it and that's all.

I have a method: a 9 or 10/0 SS tuna hook, bent out to a "J" and the barb filed off. And an electronic scale. This scale is lighted, has big numbers and easy to read. The hook goes under the lower jaw, out-to-in, while fish is sitting in the tide pool, etc. scale into the hook. Thumb jaw lift vertical and smooth gradual weight transfer from thumb grip to scale and the fish back on the ground in 5 seconds. And released.

I use this method on big Lake Ontario brown trout and steelhead under the right conditions also. These fish swim away strong. And these species just suck compared to a striped bass in terms of strength of handling.

I therefore make the respectful suggestion to DZ, Mr. Clogstan, do not hold a culpable or guilty conscience for catching (or weighing) your FRIENDS. The commercials are all over this argument that "recreational fishermen" contribute to 71% of the striper harvest mortality.

As Numbskull says: "Stripers are my Friends".

I've only weighed one bass I caught from shore.
water was waist deep, and I couldn't get the tail section out of the water. At that point it weighed 27 lbs.

After that I just went with lengths, as stated here, it puts a whole lot less stress on the fish. I can say that all but one fish I released from shore swam away like a rocket, and that one was cradled and revived until it could make iton its own.

I would say mortality rate is more affected from the stress of a mouth full of hooks there removal of those hooks and a drag screaming fight for its life. and overall time out of water . a 10 second hang from a boga in my opinion. would be slow low you couldn't measure it . and the least impact from catch to release

I'm with SAUERKRAUT. I think bass are pretty tough. I've had a boga for a long time and I don't think a quick weigh on the boga in any way affects their ability to swim off. I've always felt the hand under the gill plate was the thing to avoid and the boga helps with that. I think it's probably easier on them to do a quick weigh on the boga than drag them up onto shore/the bike path for measuring and a picture but I've done both plenty of times and they swim away fine.

Great topic I've been thinking a lot about this too. Just bought a boga this year because actually the opposite of saurkraut I was getting sh... for not wieghing my shore caught bass, all I was using was the plastic gripper. I don't think hanging a fish for weight does any damage to it at all... This fish shot off like a monkey in a box when I weighed it then took the picture then released it last year, but I got all kinds of grief for hanging it vertical to take the picture...

I'm no anatomist, but all that should be happening (from a physical standpoint) ..would be that its intestines, gonad, etc would settle near the fish's stomach/anus area. Nothing critical is getting crushed.
From a mental standpoint, the fish can't think....it's not thinking why is the human holding me or what's he going to do next. I would think that the fish's instinct is fear, whether or not your unhooking it to release it OR weighing for the few seconds that it may take.

For me personally, this low addition (weighing process) to the already experienced stress of being hooked and dragged to shore would not deter me from weighing something that I felt deserved the respect of being weighed. Yes, there is some inner-ego in yearning to know if this particular one is your personal best, but there's also respect being shown to the fish...as not all are worthy of seeing the scale. :jump1:

Who knows, maybe it even makes the bigger fish feel better by stretching the spine....maybe it forces some new blood into some old crevices.....always seems to help the old lady....LOL

There is some truth in there somewhere...for those who choose to seek it.

1. Regardless of being weighed or not the fish is going to be better off swimming away.

If the fish could not survive being held in a vertical position out of water, there would surely be dead fish every time a fish jumped out of the water, just saying...

Oh man that fish came right out of the water and missed that plug... Now it's going to die because its weight wasn't supported for the 3 seconds it caught air :(

Congrats on releasing a very very large fish :) cheers!
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There were some studies. I can't remember if they were striper specific. The mortality rate was incredibly high. Dislocation of jaws and damaged internal organs due to the unnatural position for something designed to be neutrally buoyant in water, not hanged in air. I will see if I can find those studies. I bought a carp sling because of them.
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congrats on the fish, sounds like a monstah!

the kayak guys have talked in inches forever because it's nearly impossible to weigh a fish while sitting in a kayak and release it, at first I thought guys were catching 40 pounders every weekend! Then you get used to it. Still - when somebody gets anything over say, 47 ya gotta wonder if it's tipping the 50 pound mark. There are entire tourneys based on inches and not pounds, so why not embrace it, if you get a fish over 50 inches you pretty much know at that point, right? Even if you don't really think it weighed 50 pounds, how many 50 INCH fish are caught? not many!

I can jump up off a diving board without any issue.
( Well, last time I trashed my Achilles )
But, if you hung me over the pool by my head for 10 or 15 seconds it would probably be a bitch.
Like I said, nothing to base it on.
Just a hunch.
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I carry my boga but find myself using it less nowadays. Now i carry the 60 with me 99% of the time, i was sick of getting my balls busted for guestimates on fish over 30. If the fight was long or if the fish had hooks deep i wont weigh it, just get her back in the water.

I also remember hearing something about vertical weighing of a fish being bad but i cant recall if it was just opinion on a board or if it was a study. I think a boga is a better option than something that pierces the lip or goes in the corner of the gill plate.

There were some studies. I can't remember if they were striper specific. The mortality rate was incredibly high. Dislocation of jaws and damaged internal organs due to the unnatural position for something designed to be neutrally buoyant in water, not hanged in air. I will see if I can find those studies. I bought a carp sling because of them.
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Although I do understand that you are referencing someone else's data or report, a study of this type could never be conclusive. Not even close. There are so many other variables that come into play that could effect the health of this fish prior to a weighing. To say that the weighing of a fish causes its' mortality rate to be incredibly high is quite far-fetched IMO.

At what point do you refrain from hurting the fish?
If we were truly in this game to ensure the health of this species, WE WOULDN'T FISH FOR THEM...right? We'd use hook-less lures.
Clogston, bring your boga next time. Weigh err',,,kiss err'...and then send errr on errr way.

There are entire tourneys based on inches and not pounds, so why not embrace it, if you get a fish over 50 inches you pretty much know at that point, right? Even if you don't really think it weighed 50 pounds, how many 50 INCH fish are caught? not many!

Not necessarily. My prev two best where 51" and one was 44.5 and one 45 lbs. this one was 52.5" so I'm thinking it could have tipped 50 but not sure. North shore fish, at least the ones I catch, are skinny. This one had some girth but not like you see in fish down south.
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What you are worrying about is called isthmus injury. It seems an issue in snook but less so in other species. I think it has been looked at in LMB and Muskies. As I recall it didn't make any difference in release mortality in those two species but you might try searching it to be sure.

I doubt it is a major problem for big stripers, the bigger issue is likely the time out of water to both weigh and photograph them. Just because they swim away doesn't mean they survive, and when air and water temps are high the mortality rate soars (greater than 25%) very quickly while out of water. This is why what SK does (carefully weighing, measuring, photoing, and recording each fish.....particularly when it takes him forever to unhook them with his barbed hooks) is inexcusable and he ought to know better.

If you use the length/girth formula I think you are supposed to use fork length.......then subtract 10# if you used an eel or boat.

I never thought I’d see the day when the few casters who started the Catch and Release ethic and played a major role in protecting the striped bass for this current generation would be criticized for weighing and then releasing striped bass… alive. No one should feel guilty about hanging the cows that they’ve caught on a hand scale and then releasing them with great care. It’s because of casters like us that many of you are still able to catch striped bass. Zeke Silva, Glen Flosdorf, Fred Thurber, Brad Burns, and many others from Jersey to Maine were the trail blazers of the C&R ethic which did not even exist within the striped bass fishery before the mid-1980s. If you want to measure your bass before release fine, if you want to estimate the weight by formula fine, but do not criticize others for practicing C&R the way they do. Just remember - we’re not all perfect but it’s the SPIRIT OF WHY WE’RE DOING IT WHICH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF C&R. Please respect that.

Totally agree DZ, the spirit of it still there and I, for one, wouldn't criticize anybody for weighing anything and releasing it!
My point is that it would be good to get away from the pounds thing as it seems to be a relic of the old days when every single fish was weighed, as you noted, except for some pioneers of C&R. Sounds like for the hardcore surf crew, that may take a LONG time.

And Clogston - totally understand where you are coming from, the fish are skinny and I would want to know too, great fish man! I would also be willing to bet that's one of the biggest caught on the north shore this season..

I feel I can do less damage to a fish by getting a weight on a boga than i can laying it on rocks to get a length.

I dont think pounds as a measurement is an old relic, it is actually the best way to gauge the true class of fish you just caught (if your own personal stats are important, which they are to many).
a 48 inch fish can often vary in weight by many many pounds.

I have seen 6 foot tall men weigh 140 pounds, and 400 pounds... clearly
height would not be an accurate method of classifying them when discussing size.

In the end, if you are actively thinking about what is best for the fish, and releasing it as soon as you can, you are on the right track.

Congrats on that fish, regardless of weight the experience will be forever etched into your mind. Some of my best fish I have no photos of and released and those are the most memorable to me.

If concerned about boga weighing, why not look into what the carp anglers use. Its a cradle system to support the entire wieght of the fish.

There have been studies, mainly in Australia on Barramundi. Those studies were exhaustive and found that mortality increased sharply if the fish was weighed by hanging it from its jaw in a vertical position. Post mortem study of released fish that later died showed that they primary cause of death was tearing of the tissues that hold all of the major organs in place. Mortality was sharply reduced by using a sling to hold the fish while it was being weighted.

Those Australian studies caused some much less exhaustive studies here in the U.S. on fish that were similarly shaped as the barramundi, stripers included. They confirmed the results of the Australian studies i.e. mortality sharply increased for fish weighed by hanging them from the jaw. The bigger the fish the higher the mortality. Hanging a 18 inch striper has almost no effect on mortality, but hanging a 50 sharply increases mortality.

When a fish jumps out of the water, its position is more horizontal than its position from hanging it by the jaw.

You can probably find all of the studies using Google, I lost my links to them when my old computer crashed.

From Florida fish and wildlife.
For what it's worth

Refrain from holding fish in a vertical position when inspecting or photographing them. Internal organs are displaced and stress is increased in this unnatural position. Large fish should never be held by the bottom jaw only, with a boca grip or otherwise (any tool designed to grip the lower jaw of caught fish to facilitate handling). Hold the fish horizontally by the lower jaw with one hand, and support the belly with the other hand. If unsupported, many large fish, especially snook, will rupture the isthmus-a cartilaginous bundle of ligaments that connects the head and body--and the fish will die a slow death from starvation. This connection is necessary for the tremendous gulping action during feeding.
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Great stuff guys and a big thank you to the pioneers who have saved stocks for my generation and younger to enjoy. I had a long conversation on the way home from the canal with a guy who has showed me everything I know about surf fishing about how conservation in the 80 s by keeping the size limits a few inches inches longer each year. All these 50 plus class being caught now arefish from that big school
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Saying this as a big C&R guy, i think sometimse we need to step back and realize we are driving hooks into a fish's face. I think if you gave the fish a choice he would take being weghed for 5 seconds over a face full of treble hooks.

...a study of this type could never be conclusive. Not even close. There are so many other variables that come into play that could effect the health of this fish prior to a weighing. .

Maybe not a 100% conclusive, but to say there are so many variables distorts the way research works. They will use control groups and isolate the variables as much as possible. If the fish that are hung by a gripper die at a higher rate than those that aren't and it is a repeatable test it can be conclusive, though more likely reported as significant differences between the groups. All you can ever have is significant differences.

I'm no anatomist, but all that should be happening (from a physical standpoint) ..would be that its intestines, gonad, etc would settle near the fish's stomach/anus area. Nothing critical is getting crushed.


The anatomy of a fish is evolved for the neutrally buoyant forces of a primarily horizontal existence in water. When the fish is removed from the water, the resulting force on the anatomy of the fish is dramatically higher. "Settling" by hanging the fish has been reported to tear the tissue as a result of the non-typical force. It isn't a crushing issue. Humans die all the time from side impact car accidents in which no visible damage is done, but a non-typical sideways force causes the aorta to tear. The person appears fine and a few minutes later bleeds out and dies. Those types of injuries, along with dislocated jaws are the concern.

I never thought I’d see the day when the few casters who started the Catch and Release ethic and played a major role in protecting the striped bass for this current generation would be criticized for weighing and then releasing striped bass… alive. No one should feel guilty about hanging the cows that they’ve caught on a hand scale and then releasing them with great care. if you want to estimate the weight by formula fine, but do not criticize others for practicing C&R the way they do. Just remember - we’re not all perfect but it’s the SPIRIT OF WHY WE’RE DOING IT WHICH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF C&R. Please respect that.

I haven't heard anyone criticize... but I don't completely understand your post. C and R people shouldn't be criticized specifically for c and r. However, if they are releasing the fish after handling it in a way that will ultimately kill it, then it completely defeats the purpose of catch and release. It may be blissful ignorance. From the studies I have read, there is evidence that hanging a fish from a lipping device is often fatal. I have decided that I won't use them because I am not releasing fish to avoid filleting them, I do it to avoid killing them. If further studies back it up, I will start to criticize people who use them, just as I would criticize the guy who kicks them down the rocks. At least a guy who keeps it is going to eat it.

I do respect all opinions, and therefore consider myself further educated in the anatomy of a fish due to these recent posts. Can't say I buy it, hook, line and sinker...but there seems to be some merit to what was described. Studies can sometimes be biased. This is what bothers me about "studies" sometimes...whomever generates the study normally swings it in their direction, just my opinion

That being said, I can't claim to love fishing, yet at the same time, be saddened that I'm hurting the fish. I would not abuse the fish outside of the act of trying to catch it (I don't personally consider weighing a fish abusing it btw),,, yet in reading what (zimmy in particular) typed....how can one actively participate in the sport of fishing with such detailed concern for their health?
I was raised on catch and eat...not catch and waste, not catch, show & tell either as it's rare you see a fish/pic with me in it. As I've grown older, perhaps not wiser...but older, I also do my share of C&R. I enjoy fresh striped-bass. One fish feeds me and the freezer for a bit. When the season winds down, yes...I may stock a fish or two, but that's nothing compared to what I catch. (Not bragging in ANY sense what-so-ever)...When I kill, I kill to eat.
There are many flavors of fishermen on these boards. Take pride in what you do and why you do it, and all is good.

Anyone know if any studies have been done on release mortality of larger fish weighed on a Boga style scale? I have one and used to use it on fish I caught and planned to keep. I avoid using them on fish that I plan to release as I just assume that hanging a large fish by the lower jaw to get the weight would have an adverse effect on the fish. I got a good fish few nights ago, a new PB based on length, that I released and now not knowing the weight is kind of eating at me. I didn't even have a camera with me which I usually do and my phone battery was dead. Just wondering if my concerns over weighing fish to be released are valid. Thanks for any input.

...this is like every other question or discussion here...what's the best knot?...what's the best way to work a needlefish?....what's the best tide at a particular area?....what's the best recipe?.....what's the best way to handle and release a fish?...............fishermen are always looking for the best methods to do this or that, best tackle for various circumstances, best intel for various conditions, stands to reason they'd be curious about the best methods to handle and release a fish since they are forced to do it at some point hopefully. It's a great question and there is a lot of information on the topic. Like everything else, you do what you choose to with the info. Congrats on the fish, pretty sure you know with or without an official weight if it was way up there in the memorable department.:)

. This fish shot off like a monkey in a box

You'll catch me saying that eventually. This has been a good read lots of stuff on both sides. I have one I use it when a fish is bigger I have only killed one bass in my life (on purpose that came home) it was the only fish that didn't give me a shower and wasnt really floating the correct way for swimming. So I ended its misery i did try like hell to get her moving. Pretty sure the issue was not the boga
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Congrats on an awesome fish and the release!

That being said, I can't claim to love fishing, yet at the same time, be saddened that I'm hurting the fish. I would not abuse the fish outside of the act of trying to catch it (I don't personally consider weighing a fish abusing it btw),,, yet in reading what (zimmy in particular) typed....how can one actively participate in the sport of fishing with such detailed concern for their health?


For me, it isn't an issue of be saddened about hurting fish.I look at it from the perspective that if I know what I am doing in handling the fish after catching it is likely to kill it, I will avoid doing it. I want as many 50lbers out there as possible. Like Scott said, you choose what to do with the info.

Thanks for the insight guys. Think i will continue to not use/carry the boga. Swimming away is not really a indicator that the fish is ok to me. I could run away from an altercation with a broken jaw, broken ribs and internal injuries but I wouldn't survive too long after in the wild.
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I just don't buy the fact that stripers really get hurt from holding them vertical for a few seconds to weigh. Was this "study" done specifically on stripers or just fish in general?

Snook (and presumably Barramundi....a close relative) are indeed killed by suspension.

Bonefish are injured but did not die (at least in the 48hrs of the study).

Suspending them doesn't bother muskies much at all ...

"A growing number of musky fishermen believe that improper catch and release practice is the cause for the lack of their musky hunting success. Simply stated, they take the position that such things as: the "wrong type" of out-of-water holds; bleeding gills; and, incorrect netting techniques, etc., are killing a high percentage of released Muskies.

Although no previous study, to our knowledge, has ever examined the validity of these widely-held beliefs, we too, shared concern for the survival of released Muskies, especially after reviewing tables 3 and 4 of the CFMTP. For this reason, we made the decision to subject the study Muskies to a variety of popular and unpopular holds, netting practices, and release practices, etc. Considering that the catch and release participants of the study have caught and released in excess of 1,500 Muskies; and, for the most part, practice the "proper" release methods, it was determined that it was necessary to expose the Muskies of the study to the same type of conditions, practices and treatment that they would receive while in the control of inexperienced musky fishermen. Only then could we make confident determinations as to the affects of such treatment, practices and conditions on musky survivability. The first year results are in. in terms of the types of holds: horizontal vs. vertical vs. diagonal-- there was no affect on mortality. The same was true of netting and release practices. We had four study Muskies that bled from slightly to profusely from the gills and all survived more on that later. in addition, two others were hooked during battles in one eye. They also survived. At the time of their releases we "experts" would have bet that at least four of these Muskies would have died. But none of these Muskies died! The good news is that Muskies are much hardier than previously thought. in fact, 95.6% of the Muskies caught, radio-tagged and released for the study survived the open-water fishing season! Only two out of the forty-five Muskies of the study expired. Now, does this mean that we should abandon the cautious release methods that most have come to accept over the past few years? Absolutely not. But, these findings illustrate that we must be careful to label something as proper" or accept something as "fact" without appropriate supporting research data.

Incidentally, of the two Muskies that expired, only one died of angling related causes. As for the other musky, it was determined after much investigation, that it had reportedly met its demise in an otter trap! Strangely enough, the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources indicates that this is not such an unusual occurrence. In fact, last year the DNR had recorded another musky, of twenty-two pounds, that also met its demise in an otter trap.

As we have revealed, the Chippewa Flowage Musky Study (CFMS) radio-telemetry proves that catch and release is a highly effective conservation practice with a 95.6% study survival rate. This fact, combined with the data of the 1979-1986 CFMTP, as well as record stocking levels since 1990, indicate that there are more Big 'Chip Muskies of all sizes, including more larger Muskies than ever before. The first year findings of the CFMS prove that catch and release is not only working, but it is exceeding some of the most optimistic of expectations concerning its' effectiveness. For example, before the study began, it was estimated by the majority of the biologists that we spoke with that we would observe a 35% mortality rate for Muskies that were caught and released. The fact that the mortality rate is much lower than ever before believed could have major implications for musky management practices and strategies. "

Here is some info on LMB. Note that the first study quoted used lipping holds, much like a boga. They had minimal mortality at least short term (there is some info that an isthmus injury leads to slow starvation via ineffective feeding).


"A couple recently published studies* took a good look at how bass fared when held out of water (hypoxia) for extended periods of time, and the results might surprise you.
The first was a lab test comparing largemouth to smallmouth. Bass were physically exercised to simulate angling and then held by the jaw (“thumbed” just like most every angler does) for a randomly chosen amount of time up to 10 minutes out of the water and exposed to the air. Afterward, fish were placed back into a holding tank and observed and tested for some chemical parameter monitoring, then ultimately placed back into a raceway for 24 hours to observe for delayed mortality. Water temps ranged between 18-23 deg. C. (64-73 F) in this test. Largemouth recovered faster than smallmouth, as expected, but there were no documented mortality cases after 24 hours in either species.


In the other study, largemouth bass were caught from a lake and then held out of the water for varying amounts of time that ranged from 0 up to 15 minutes. Tests were conducted during two specific environmental time frames, once at 15 deg. C. (59 F) water temps and again at 21 deg. C. (70 F). Bass were also tested for various bodily (chemical) parameters and were then placed in a holding tank for 30 minutes of recovery/observation. During this time they were fitted with an external transmitter and then released back into the lake and tracked for 5 days. Fish held out of the water longer took longer to recover, as well as longer to leave their release area in the lake, but again, no delayed mortality occurred for any of the fish including those held out of the water for the maximum 15 minutes. "

I am going to look into starting a study on stripers. Probably difficult to get large enough fish though.

Snook and barramundi appear to be suction feeders. Striped bass seem to be predominantly the same. The isthmus on a bass is that small area of flesh under the head between the gills. I can see where ( not so much on a small fish ) on a heavy fish that stress could be put on that particular area. So I'll err on the side of caution and release fish in the water wherever possible. I tend to use singles and crushed barbs anyway.
I kind of figure that keeping a fish out of water is akin to putting a plastic bag over my head after grinding out 40 minutes on the elliptical with my heart rate banging at 140 bpm.
Besides I'm too old where fish weights mean anything to to me anymore. I just like being out there getting a shot at them for lots of other reasons.
Not preaching, just one old guys way to go about it.
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I believe with largemouth jaw separation came from the Texas Lunker program and there observation.

As one of the older guy with physical limitations bending over and un hooking fish is very difficult.

Do believe the boga grip could be re designed taking a little wider grip would held.

I remember seeing the pic in bass master magazine of huge bass with obvious extended lower jaw.

With my limited experience with stripers up to 45 inches I've seen no extended lower jaws of released fish.

If the member's watch there fish for obvious extended lower jaw we should have answer quickly.