Buckman, you essentially admit here that commercial regulations are unfair and benefit from special exceptions.

You want to talk about selfish??? you care more about next years paycheck than you do about protecting the very source of your income for the long term. That is shortsighted and self serving. Every point you argue is about what's best for charter incomes, and not for the fish.

I'm a project manager in construction. It's not about me .
It's not about the $$$ either. It's about people and the fish . I understand about the fish
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Its about fish and the people. i reversed it...

We are in danger of a second collapse...

if you put fish first, then you have the wiggle room to include the people.
if you put people first, then people will wipe out the fish.

Then in the end all you will have is people... no fish.

Regulations should make preservation of the bass population the MAIN priority

Its about fish and the people. i reversed it...

We are in danger of a second collapse...

if you put fish first, then you have the wiggle room to include the people.
if you put people first, then people will wipe out the fish.

Then in the end all you will have is people... no fish.

Regulations should make preservation of the bass population the MAIN priority

Nebe would be impressed 😊
You might be better putting your energy into figuring out how to change natural cycles, cure disease and change water quality and bait in the Chesapeake Bay .
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Pardon my ignorance ... I'm pretty sure " gamefish status " would mean no commercial fishing or sales of striped bass.
Am I wrong ? No you are
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You are still missing the point. Game fish status would not prevent a commercial fisherman from catching fish for personal use, they would have the same exact right as a recreational fisherman. No, they would not be allowed to sell them but what you accused the recreational fisherman on this site of who don't think charters should have a different limit is wanting them all for themselves which is not true. Under game fish status everyone would be treated the same and have the same opportunity to take fish.

Plus, most as I noted are not asking for game fish status, they are just asking for an equal limit for all recreational fisherman of one fish, most haven't even commented on commercial fishing, just charters. People who go out on charters are nothing more then recreational fisherman and should be treated no different than other recreational fisherman be them shore bound or own their own boat.

You are still missing the point. Game fish status would not prevent a commercial fisherman from catching fish for personal use, they would have the same exact right as a recreational fisherman. No, they would not be allowed to sell them but what you accused the recreational fisherman on this site of who don't think charters should have a different limit is wanting them all for themselves which is not true. Under game fish status everyone would be treated the same and have the same opportunity to take fish.

Plus, most as I noted are not asking for game fish status, they are just asking for an equal limit for all recreational fisherman of one fish, most haven't even commented on commercial fishing, just charters. People who go out on charters are nothing more then recreational fisherman and should be treated no different than other recreational fisherman be them shore bound or own their own boat.

I totally understand what you are saying but that eliminates commercial fishing or the ability of those who don't fish the chance to consume delicious striped bass .
Where we differ is how far the sky has fallen .
I think, and the science seems to agree , that there is enough bass to make it good for everyone including the fish .
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Do you know any one who has purchased a delicious piece of unbled, non iced, mercury infused red meat included striped bass for $20 plus a pound ? I don't.
I'll take a thick porterhouse and a nice bottle of red wine and still save money on a better meal.

So many better tasting fish in the sea anyway by my palate.
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Do you know any one who has purchased a delicious piece of unbled, non iced, mercury infused red meat included striped bass for $20 plus a pound ? I don't.
I'll take a thick porterhouse and a nice bottle of red wine and still save money on a better meal.
So many better tasting fish in the sea.
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You can't argue the fact that someone is buying it.

True enough.
But is it the first sea food choice you would opt for ?
But then again I used to fish with an old striper addict who liked sand eels with his linguine.
Gag me !
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A draft agenda has been posted on the ASMFC calendar about the Technical Committee meeting this Thursday and Friday. It appears they will be discussing Addendum IV state implementation plans as well as formulate recommendations on implementation plans/ conservation equivalency proposals. No documentation (as of yet) on how states will approach implementation.
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A draft agenda has been posted on the ASMFC calendar about the Technical Committee meeting this Thursday and Friday. It appears they will be discussing Addendum IV state implementation plans as well as formulate recommendations on implementation plans/ conservation equivalency proposals. No documentation (as of yet) on how states will approach implementation.
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Interesting in that RI and Mass have not even announced what, if any, their CE choices are? I'm confused as to why they will be meeting before each state has announced their own plans. The process makes my head spin.

Makes me wonder how these plans were drafted and who did the actual drafting of the plan(s). I was told the plans would be released in Mid January as part of the February Board meeting materials.
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Shady
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Interesting in that RI and Mass have not even announced what, if any, their CE choices are? I'm confused as to why they will be meeting before each state has announced their own plans. The process makes my head spin.

Many states choose to submit multiple plans to the tech. committee before they announce anything to the public. It kinda makes sense, why seek public input if the CE won't be approved by the tech. committee.

How about no one keeps anything and then everyone that wants to keep fish will be fishing a different species. Couple of years of that and 1 fish for anyone per day dosent sound that bad. Any commercial or charter guys worth their weight will survive and the rest will go do somthing else. Recs will catch and release and you will fing alot of charter clients wanting to do the same. Keep going the way we are going and that is where we will end up in 2 or 3 seasons. Bite the bullet now or take it in the behind later. The guys that will be around will be around either way. Lets do what is best for the resource and our children.

Many states choose to submit multiple plans to the tech. committee before they announce anything to the public. It kinda makes sense, why seek public input if the CE won't be approved by the tech. committee.

You're right Mike - that does make sense.

Headhunter... Well said... Great points
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How about no one keeps anything and then everyone that wants to keep fish will be fishing a different species. Couple of years of that and 1 fish for anyone per day dosent sound that bad. Any commercial or charter guys worth their weight will survive and the rest will go do somthing else. Recs will catch and release and you will fing alot of charter clients wanting to do the same. Keep going the way we are going and that is where we will end up in 2 or 3 seasons. Bite the bullet now or take it in the behind later. The guys that will be around will be around either way. Lets do what is best for the resource and our children.

We can take up the problem of disease and water quality that is really the culprit in another dream
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How many large, breeder bass died from disease and water quality in a single weekend this july?

Now, how many large breeder bass died in a single weekend this july aboard rec and charter boats?

Its time to decrease the instant kill for comm, recs and rec charters.

Thats good for the fish, but not your paycheck, so im sure you will disagree somehow in your very next post. Continually arguing to keep two fish proves you value income BEFORE preserving longevity of a species.
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Do you know any one who has purchased a delicious piece of unbled, non iced, mercury infused red meat included striped bass for $20 plus a pound ? I don't.
I'll take a thick porterhouse and a nice bottle of red wine and still save money on a better meal.

So many better tasting fish in the sea anyway by my palate.
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I think one reason is that it's kosher as it is not processed or bled on the boat....I could be wrong but I think it's one of the few kosher fish with high demand buy Jewish consumers
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We can take up the problem of disease and water quality that is really the culprit in another dream
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So, more regulations to improve water quality by reducing fertilizer and other run off?:wave::scream:

"We can take up the problem of disease and water quality that is really the culprit in another dream"


Not going to have to worrie about that in 2 or 3 more seasons if we dont stop killing more that the resource can bare..............first things first then we will continue to work on/ forage/ water quality / disease / greed / and perhaps even a little stupidity.......... comment not aimed at any one here just to avoid that rant.

IMO If we blow up the improvements that Providence made in its sewerage system :gorez:

within 5 years the bay S/b fifthy again / but the fishing for all species will have greatly inproved :fishin:

We can take up the problem of disease and water quality that is really the culprit in another dream
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Republican congress already has funding for the Chesapeake Bay program in it's targets. The connection of economic benefits to a healthy population and clean water is way to complicated for most of them. Simple minded just say we should spend less money.

How about no one keeps anything and then everyone that wants to keep fish will be fishing a different species. Couple of years of that and 1 fish for anyone per day dosent sound that bad. Any commercial or charter guys worth their weight will survive and the rest will go do somthing else. Recs will catch and release and you will fing alot of charter clients wanting to do the same. Keep going the way we are going and that is where we will end up in 2 or 3 seasons. Bite the bullet now or take it in the behind later. The guys that will be around will be around either way. Lets do what is best for the resource and our children.

Very well said.
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Scott,
Most of the fishing up our way is done by fisherman who travel for the fishing. The attitude that charter clients are no talent tourist , proves how little the people commenting on how this will effect charter business know.

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not my perception.... but it's been one description of convenience to explain why the client needs two fish..."poor guy only gets to fish once a year"...."probably".......that or... he's not going fishing without at least the "perception" of being able to take two bass home.....WHO has an odd attitude toward the charter clients? Seems like most view them as equals, at least that is the sentiment I've read...it's the folks angling for an exception that characterize them as something less... needing special treatment in order to get them on the water?

The argument for DZ and me(I got it from him to be honest), that these are the last folks who should get a 2 fish exception is rhetorical to some degree based on the characterization that has been made by some of the charter folks of their clients.......

"the captain and charter industry don't really want two fish it's the client that needs two fish or the boats will go out of business...the client needs two fish or he won't book a trip...the client doesn't really need two fish, he needs the perception of needing or keeping two fish or he won't book a trip the boats will go out of business....the client only fishes once or twice a year so it's only fair that he gets two fish because others have the opportunity to fish more than that...."


unless I missed something that is the sum of the two fish argument...well, and...there are plenty of bass and a reduction isn't really needed anyway...


and if you don't agree you are selfish, jealous, hateful and you don't know very much..... or something......

not my perception.... but it's been one description of convenience to explain why the client needs two fish..."poor guy only gets to fish once a year"...."probably".......that or... he's not going fishing without at least the "perception" of being able to take two bass home.....WHO has an odd attitude toward the charter clients? Seems like most view them as equals, at least that is the sentiment I've read...it's the folks angling for an exception that characterize them as something less... needing special treatment in order to get them on the water?

The argument for DZ and me(I got it from him to be honest), that these are the last folks who should get a 2 fish exception is rhetorical to some degree based on the characterization that has been made by some of the charter folks of their clients.......

"the captain and charter industry don't really want two fish it's the client that needs two fish or the boats will go out of business...the client needs two fish or he won't book a trip...the client doesn't really need two fish, he needs the perception of needing or keeping two fish or he won't book a trip the boats will go out of business....the client only fishes once or twice a year so it's only fair that he gets two fish because others have the opportunity to fish more than that...."


unless I missed something that is the sum of the two fish argument...well, and...there are plenty of bass and a reduction isn't really needed anyway...


and if you don't agree you are selfish, jealous, hateful and you don't know very much..... or something......

I think you mixed in a few of your reasons in there just to make it sound outrages ;)
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Republican congress already has funding for the Chesapeake Bay program in it's targets. The connection of economic benefits to a healthy population and clean water is way to complicated for most of them. Simple minded just say we should spend less money.

Yes it's the GOPs fault you can't catch a bass .
You should research what this Administration has done to the fisheries .
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I don't think Buckman would be so impassioned if his son was not a commercial angler. His emotional ties are those which any good father would express,regardless of the plight of the fisheries. Folks like ourselves are simply unable to understand his urgency. Family first.
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Yes it's the GOPs fault you can't catch a bass .
You should research what this Administration has done to the fisheries .
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Ha. You're are funny. Guess water quality and bay health is number one goal of the new congress. Stupid is as stupid does.

I don't think Buckman would be so impassioned if his son was not a commercial angler. His emotional ties are those which any good father would express,regardless of the plight of the fisheries. Folks like ourselves are simply unable to understand his urgency. Family first.
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That's a fair statement and I do appreciate it. But in reality I truly do believe that businesses can be protected and the goal of restoring striped bass can be accomplished at the same time.
As with all regulations there is an extreme at both ends . The economical, the practical, and the correct choices can be made.
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As passionate as many of us have been in this discussion, I feel that we are reaching the point of reiterating our position in a repetitive cycle.

In the end, some see the need to take measures to protect fish first,
while others see the need to take measures to protect personal income first.

We all have our position, and seem to be sticking to it. I am not going to convince some one who's judgement and common sense are blinded by $ to change their views. just the same, no one is going to convince me that allowing a certain group to kill more fish to preserve their own personal income is what is in the best interest for the fish.

I pray that somehow, common sense will prevail and people will decide to help protect the fish we all love. I dont see how anyone can argue that taking an intermission from the rate of killing is a bad idea... might not be what's best for YOUR personal income, but it is what's best for the fish.

I dare anyone to tell me that killing more fish is better for the bass population than killing less fish.

I dare anyone to tell me that killing more fish is better for the bass population than killing less fish.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/thefishingfreak/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2014-12-11-16-49-14_zpsbi5frcos.png (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/thefishingfreak/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2014-12-11-16-49-14_zpsbi5frcos.png.html)

Every single example of 2 fish yields a lower rate of reduction than 1 fish, does it not?

This argument and finger pointing has been going on since the days of beach crews working gill nets... we can only control one thing.. and that's the harvest... everything else requires time, effort, and REAL science...not "science" skewed by personal agendas... the natural progression of life has a way of sorting things out.... the rest is up to us...

Every single example of 2 fish yields a lower rate of reduction than 1 fish, does it not?

-2% difference, That's Still over the 25% reduction we all agree on.Heck it's even 4%HIGHER.
That's not good enough for you. You want everyone to have the same limits. The same playing field, Regardless of the reduction numbers.
As Nebe said, This isn't about the reduction, this is about charter boats having a different limit then rec guys.
Charter boats have different regs for many other species, Why not Bass?
Obviously the powers that be in the past have agreed that charter boats are not the same and set different rules accordingly

I don't think Buckman would be so impassioned if his son was not a commercial angler. His emotional ties are those which any good father would express,regardless of the plight of the fisheries. Folks like ourselves are simply unable to understand his urgency. Family first.
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They don't fish commercially for bass and don't sell bass.....just saying....
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As passionate as many of us have been in this discussion, I feel that we are reaching the point of reiterating our position in a repetitive cycle.

In the end, some see the need to take measures to protect fish first,
while others see the need to take measures to protect personal income first.

We all have our position, and seem to be sticking to it. I am not going to convince some one who's judgement and common sense are blinded by $ to change their views. just the same, no one is going to convince me that allowing a certain group to kill more fish to preserve their own personal income is what is in the best interest for the fish.

I pray that somehow, common sense will prevail and people will decide to help protect the fish we all love. I dont see how anyone can argue that taking an intermission from the rate of killing is a bad idea... might not be what's best for YOUR personal income, but it is what's best for the fish.

I dare anyone to tell me that killing more fish is better for the bass population than killing less fish.

I haven't heard anyone say put the dollars ahead of the fish. Why are you going to take everything to the extreme?
I'll give you a quick example… Just a couple short years ago we were fighting to keep bluefin tuna from being put on the endangered species list . As silly as that sounds it was a hard fought battle.
Commercial bluefin tuna fisherman are instrumental in setting the harvest quota . The fish are doing well by most standards .
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Saying less people will pay for a charter due to one fish limits is definitely saying it's about money. Come on man.
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Saying less people will pay for a charter due to one fish limits is definitely saying it's about money. Come on man.
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I didn't say it wasn't about money, I just said it's not about putting money first ahead of the fish.
Is this really that hard to understand ?
Both objectives can be achieved.
It just dawned on me that maybe the reason charterboats do so well catching fish is we have a zero tolerance drug policy 😊😊
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-2% difference, That's Still over the 25% reduction we all agree on.Heck it's even 4%HIGHER.
That's not good enough for you. You want everyone to have the same limits. The same playing field, Regardless of the reduction numbers.
As Nebe said, This isn't about the reduction, this is about charter boats having a different limit then rec guys.
Charter boats have different regs for many other species, Why not Bass?
Obviously the powers that be in the past have agreed that charter boats are not the same and set different rules accordingly

The problem with charters having different regulations is that the reduction percentages are based on all recreational anglers having the same limits. You can't have different limits for the various recreational user groups and achieve the same reduction.

With 1 @28" the charter guys get hit harder than the average recreational guy who probably has trouble even getting 1@28 most of the time. With 2@33 the average recreation guys get hit harder because they now need to catch a 33" fish instead of a 28" fish and that rarely happens but for the charters it's pretty much business as usual. If you slice it up and the average rec guy gets 1@28 and the charters get 2@33 then the overall reduction drops to well below the target of 25%.

Again, the reduction percentages are based on the entire recreational sector having the same limits and with any of the available options one group is going to take the brunt of the reduction. If you slice it up and cherry pick from the options based on each recreational user group you won't achieve the target reduction.

Let us not forget that the entire reduction plan only has a 50% chance of success. If the plan fails to produce desired results, we may have little to argue about in the future.
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Let us not forget that the entire reduction plan only has a 50% chance of success. If the plan fails to produce desired results, we may have little to argue about in the future.
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Is that because there are other factors, that regardless of how few we kill ,we don't have control over ?
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Is that because there are other factors, that regardless of how few we kill ,we don't have control over ?
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The 50% chance of success is used in reference to getting the fishing mortality (F) down to the new target levels within one year. Fishing mortality is the one factor that ASMFC and we as anglers do have control over.

The new reduced target levels for fishing mortality (F) are supposed to help protect the spawning biomass (SSB) which, based on the 2013 stock assessment, has been shrinking. The SSB has been shrinking both due to fishing mortality and other factors that we have little or no control over including a number of years of poor recruitment.

They don't fish commercially for bass and don't sell bass.....just saying....
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Nor did I state they did.
But I am sure they would make a fortune if they did,with all the fish out there for the taking.
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Nor did I state they did.
But I am sure they would make a fortune if they did,with all the fish out there for the taking.
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I was thinking the same thing, great minds think alike . I read here that you can catch them the night before and still make huge money .
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The 50% chance of success is used in reference to getting the fishing mortality (F) down to the new target levels within one year. Fishing mortality is the one factor that ASMFC and we as anglers do have control over.

The new reduced target levels for fishing mortality (F) are supposed to help protect the spawning biomass (SSB) which, based on the 2013 stock assessment, has been shrinking. The SSB has been shrinking both due to fishing mortality and other factors that we have little or no control over including a number of years of poor recruitment.

Thanks
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as many of us have stated throughout this debate.... I'm sympathetic to the plight of "real" charter guys who make their living from taking sports out to fish


but- if the ecosystem won't support taking more fish than designated, then end of discussion.....

if the ecosystem can't handle extra mortality, we all just gotta live with that fact.

Tell me the definition of a "real" charter guy.
because the state lumps us all together.
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Tell me the definition of a "real" charter guy.
because the state lumps us all together.
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The boats have striper forever stickers on them and flush hardware that wont snag a fly line ..jk
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As judge Potter said " It's like porn...you know it when you see it."

Those Orvis wearing buggy whippers seem to like the 23 regulators though....
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As judge Potter said " It's like porn...you know it when you see it."

Those Orvis wearing buggy whippers seem to like the 23 regulators though....
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wait....are you suggesting that the charter captain with the 23 regulator(with possibly a stripers forever sticker) navigating around shallow structure so that his orvis wearing buggy whipping client can cast to fish with a fly or light tackle is not a "real' charter and the orvis wearing buggy whipper is not a real fisherman really fishing? (probably why these guys by and large and many others who engage in various forms and degrees of "real" charter fishing aren't seeking an exception or two fish alternative...they're not really "real")

but

a charter captain with the "6 pack" steaming around dragging umbrella rigs with a deck full of tommy bahama wearing hands free clients(except maybe a beverage) who may or may not have ever purchased a fishing license in their lives is the "real" charter with "real" fishermen? (and these guys by and large seem to be seeking an exception or two fish alternative and in fact "need" one for "perception")

too funny......:laughs: ya know..Orvis waders and a Tommy Bahama shirt might be a good look, need to consult Spence

imagine what the surf guy in a wetsuit swimming out to a rock on a stormy night thinks of those examples in terms of "real" fishing...if anyone deserves two fish for his efforts it's THAT guy!....just kidding


agree with bobber...I was pretty sympathetic to Buckman's plight early on and just wanted him to better explain because I wasn't seeing the logic...and I have become far less so... rightly or wrongly...it seems as though a segment of the for-hire population has succeeded in further isolating themselves over time rather than rally support...we'll see how it all shakes out

wait....are you suggesting that the charter captain with the 23 regulator(with possibly a stripers forever sticker) navigating around shallow structure so that his orvis wearing buggy whipping client can cast to fish with a fly or light tackle is not a "real' charter and the orvis wearing buggy whipper is not a real fisherman really fishing? (probably why these guys by and large and many others who engage in various forms and degrees of "real" charter fishing aren't seeking an exception or two fish alternative...they're not really "real")

but

a charter captain with the "6 pack" steaming around dragging umbrella rigs with a deck full of tommy bahama wearing hands free clients(except maybe a beverage) who may or may not have ever purchased a fishing license in their lives is the "real" charter with "real" fishermen? (and these guys by and large seem to be seeking an exception or two fish alternative and in fact "need" one for "perception")

too funny......:laughs: ya know..Orvis waders and a Tommy Bahama shirt might be a good look, need to consult Spence

imagine what the surf guy in a wetsuit swimming out to a rock on a stormy night thinks of those examples in terms of "real" fishing...if anyone deserves two fish for his efforts it's THAT guy!....just kidding


agree with bobber...I was pretty sympathetic to Buckman's plight early on and just wanted him to better explain because I wasn't seeing the logic...and I have become far less so... rightly or wrongly...it seems as though a segment of the for-hire population has succeeded in further isolating themselves over time rather than rally support...we'll see how it all shakes out

Jesus we didn't mean to offend anyone ! I apologize for being so insensitive as I was only teasing . I do hope you can look past your emotions and see the real point. 😊
Who was it that said " real " charters anywho ?
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Jesus we didn't mean to offend anyone ! I apologize for being so insensitive as I was only teasing . I do hope you can look past your emotions and see the real point. ��
Who was it that said " real " charters anywho ?
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not offended...thought it was funny where this ends up going(what you drive, what you wear, what stickers are on your vehicle)...you're a little sensitive......I lump myself in with the aging surfguy in a wetsuit crowd which is never a pretty picture and makes the Orvis/Tommy Bahama crowd look pretty damn attractive

not offended...thought it was funny where this ends up going(what you drive, what you wear, what stickers are on your vehicle)...you're a little sensitive......I lump myself in with the aging surfguy in a wetsuit crowd which is never a pretty picture and makes the Orvis/Tommy Bahama crowd look pretty damn attractive

Funny stuff
Well not to sound cliché but one of my best buddies is one of the top flyfishing saltwater guides in New England.
And I also like fly fishing.
It was definitely all in jest .
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A phrase I use at work a lot is " Just because you call yourself a ( plumber, carpenter, electrician etc ) doesn't mean you're good at it.

As it relates to fishing, the guys I fish with like to be off by ourselves, looking for pods of bass to cast plugs to or swim live macs at. Just a more fun way to fish for us than using wire. Can't tell you how many times we would be on a small surface feed and within minutes the face masked ninjas would crash through and put the fish down. Or some big diesel trolls right across the the school and spooks the fish. So off we go looking for another small pod of fish to try. While the ninjas go back to fleet fishing around the Rice boats.
We expect that from the beer swilling googans in the bayliners, but a lot of the guys out there don't seem to get the concept. No matter how much they look the part.

I do love fishing out of the regulators though, nice layout and ride.
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I thought I explained myself when I made the statement... "Real charter guys" are those who actually make a living fromtaking people out to fish. not those who take 1 trip a week to help pay for gas/slip/biat (er whatever)- they take charters- yes. But they are really guys with a fishing "habit", and need ways to offset their expenses.

I know- I tried it once too.

having a captains license does not a captain make

I only do it for the special regs and increased limits :hidin:

I thought I explained myself when I made the statement... "Real charter guys" are those who actually make a living fromtaking people out to fish. not those who take 1 trip a week to help pay for gas/slip/biat (er whatever)- they take charters- yes. But they are really guys with a fishing "habit", and need ways to offset their expenses.

I know- I tried it once too.

having a captains license does not a captain make

There you go Scott! Shore guides and kayakers are out !
Actually this is totally confusing to me because you said if the regulations force you to get another job then that's what you have to do.
And there will be no more "real" charter boats
Now I see your plan
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There you go Scott! Shore guides and kayakers are out !
Actually this is totally confusing to me because you said if the regulations force you to get another job then that's what you have to do.
And there will be no more "real" charter boats
Now I see your plan
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It IS genius really. I think he had a Regulator somewhere in the 23' range and I have fly fished from his current vessel. No more real charters will open up for him to buy Berger Time, his new 23' regulator on which he takes suckers out once in awhile to fly fish for their 1 measly keeper. Those Jersey boys are all alike. Next I will find out he is a closet cowgirls fan like Crossing-closing Christie.

no keepers for you!


friggin guy..... have him over to your house for dinner once in a while and now he tells people I'm a cross dresser from Jersey :shocked:

and if there was EVER a shore guide or kayak-guy who truely derived his income from guiding..... I'd buy the guy a beer.

I think I'm pretty safe

There you go Scott! Shore guides and kayakers are out !
Actually this is totally confusing to me because you said if the regulations force you to get another job then that's what you have to do.

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makes things even clearer for me...
here's the solution:

now that we've established that there are "real" charter guys and "not real" charter guys it and appears that it's only a fraction of the "real" charter guys that feel that they need a two fish exception to stay in business we just need to determine who they are, verify that they are them and grant them an exception.....the other option is to give all of the "real" charter guys two fish(many of whom say they don't want two fish but who might be pressured by their clients to keep two fish against their will) along with the "not real" guys who probably don't deserve to have their "clients" get two fish anyway...that would be a waste and unfair

here's what we do.....make it 1@28 for all recs...keeps it nice and simple...easy to remember

"real" charter guys who believe that they need two fish for their clients who fish once a year in order to get them to book trips so that they can remain in business can apply for an exception....

fill out an application...real charter guys will have to meet a threshold for percentage of income derived from chartering (no rich trophy wives subsidizing, trust funds, retirement income or selling fish to your restaurant friends on the side, or using someone else's boat)...this will weed out the "not real" guys pretty quickly.....and simply have the once a year client purchase a second fish tag before the trip(this will provide important data for the future and ensure that clients won't abuse the "real" charter guy's exemption and help solve any possession limit issues that might arise)


seem reasonable?

makes things even clearer for me...
here's the solution:

now that we've established that there are "real" charter guys and "not real" charter guys it and appears that it's only a fraction of the "real" charter guys that feel that they need a two fish exception to stay in business we just need to determine who they are, verify that they are them and grant them an exception.....the other option is to give all of the "real" charter guys two fish(many of whom say they don't want two fish but who might be pressured by their clients to keep two fish against their will) along with the "not real" guys who probably don't deserve to have their "clients" get two fish anyway...that would be a waste and unfair

here's what we do.....make it 1@28 for all recs...keeps it nice and simple...easy to remember

"real" charter guys who believe that they need two fish for their clients who fish once a year in order to get them to book trips so that they can remain in business can apply for an exception....

fill out an application...real charter guys will have to meet a threshold for percentage of income derived from chartering (no rich trophy wives subsidizing, trust funds, retirement income or selling fish to your restaurant friends on the side, or using someone else's boat)...this will weed out the "not real" guys pretty quickly.....and simply have the once a year client purchase a second fish tag before the trip(this will provide important data for the future and ensure that clients won't abuse the "real" charter guy's exemption and help solve any possession limit issues that might arise)


seem reasonable?

I'm curious if you have ever been on a sixpack charter . Mate maybe ? It's not just the captain that earns money from charters . There's a whole economy that surrounds this business. You sing a different tune in the political form 😀
I can honestly say I have fished off the rocks and in the canal my whole life and I suck at it . I have not had the pleasure ,as many in this thread have , of participating in the massacres at the canal.
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I'm curious if you have ever been on a sixpack charter . Mate maybe ? It's not just the captain that earns money from charters . There's a whole economy that surrounds this business. You sing a different tune in the political form ��
I can honestly say I have fished off the rocks and in the canal my whole life and I suck at it . I have not had the pleasure ,as many in this thread have , of participating in the massacres at the canal.
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sure have...not my favorite way to fish(not a canal guy either)...not sure how my tune has changed..looking for equal treatment for all recs...think the "special interests" need to show an actual need if they want special treatment rather than just giving blanket additional benefit to a segment of the recs(on for-hires) because their representatives scream the loudest or have well placed friends.... but I very much appreciate how hard those guys work in often tough conditions and having the responsibility of the lives and safety of their charters...if i have a "jealousy" it would be over their ability to be on the water frequently. tell me why my solution would not work, there only a couple of caveats, and satisfy all interests and how this economy surrounding the charter business would be adversely affected? I'm happy to cede a second fish(giving you what you ask for) to a "real" client (who doesn't have to opportunity to fish often and might not without a second bass) of a "real" charter (who believes and demonstrates that the second fish is essential to the survival of his business) ...as was pointed out...there's probably lots of pretenders out there who will benefit from two fish who probably shouldn't if there is an exemption granted all charters and it sounds like they're easy to spot:eyes:... as well as many who say they don't want that second fish but might be or feel obligated

I just got off the phone with the DEM and since 99% of the crowd here swears they do not keep any fish, they will allow Buckman and his son to catch as many damn fish as they want :D

So you want to give the guys with the 50 passenger party boats who pound block island twice a day, a 2 fish limit because they are "real charter boats" but the 6 pack guys who take clients out 2 days a week aren't allowed because it doesn't represent a high enough percentage of their income?
Brilliant

I just got off the phone with the DEM and since 99% of the crowd here swears they do not keep any fish, they will allow Buckman and his son to catch as many damn fish as they want :D

Lol . I appreciate that but it's not about me or my boy
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sure have...not my favorite way to fish(not a canal guy either)...not sure how my tune has changed..looking for equal treatment for all recs...think the "special interests" need to show an actual need if they want special treatment rather than just giving blanket additional benefit to a segment of the recs(on for-hires) because their representatives scream the loudest or have well placed friends.... but I very much appreciate how hard those guys work in often tough conditions and having the responsibility of the lives and safety of their charters...if i have a "jealousy" it would be over their ability to be on the water frequently. tell me why my solution would not work, there only a couple of caveats, and satisfy all interests and how this economy surrounding the charter business would be adversely affected? I'm happy to cede a second fish(giving you what you ask for) to a "real" client (who doesn't have to opportunity to fish often and might not without a second bass) of a "real" charter (who believes and demonstrates that the second fish is essential to the survival of his business) ...as was pointed out...there's probably lots of pretenders out there who will benefit from two fish who probably shouldn't if there is an exemption granted all charters and it sounds like they're easy to spot:eyes:... as well as many who say they don't want that second fish but might be or feel obligated

Your a very generous guy being willing to give up one of "your" fish so somebody, who "you" deam worthy , can have a second .
Do you see a problem with that?

I have merely stated that I don't believe that the sky has fallen far enough that it has to be a do or die situation.
As a sidenote… Yesterday was the last day to send in your letters opposing a closure of a huge segment of Stellwagen Bank so it may be set aside for fish "research" only... I'd like to thank all here who sent in their letters opposing the closure .
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Lol . I appreciate that but it's not about me or my boy
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LOL, I know, but all of these guys remind me of the Global Warming crowd... If the law makes the catch of bass different for charters, like they do with almost all other fish, then that's the law. I see no reason for all of the arguing and telling me the world is going to end if "it's not fair" if some guy paying $500 for a trip, to a licensed charter gets to keep 1 more fish than I do....

I am working on a way to capitalize on this by selling "bass credits" sort of like carbon credits, you buy my "bass credits" and I will plant rocks in hidden locations to protect bass.

:D

So you want to give the guys with the 50 passenger party boats who pound block island twice a day, a 2 fish limit because they are "real charter boats" but the 6 pack guys who take clients out 2 days a week aren't allowed because it doesn't represent a high enough percentage of their income?
Brilliant

sounds like they might get to do it either way...unless everyone is fishing at 1@.....the Canal massacre was an interesting point... the way things stand , the Canal massacre should be half as bad next year...looks like the BI massacre could be pretty much the same

Your a very generous guy being willing to give up one of "your" fish so somebody, who "you" deam worthy , can have a second .
Do you see a problem with that?

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didn't say that...I don't consider them "my" fish...you even make it hard to agree with you:huh:

LOL, I know, but all of these guys remind me of the Global Warming crowd... If the law makes the catch of bass different for charters, like they do with almost all other fish, then that's the law. I see no reason for all of the arguing and telling me the world is going to end if "it's not fair" if some guy paying $500 for a trip, to a licensed charter gets to keep 1 more fish than I do....

I am working on a way to capitalize on this by selling "bass credits" sort of like carbon credits, you buy my "bass credits" and I will plant rocks in hidden locations to protect bass.

:D

You don't even have to plant the rocks , you just have to say you will.
Hey , you can even eat striped bass every night while selling your striped bass credits
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You don't even have to plant the rocks , you just have to say you will.
Hey , you can even eat striped bass every night while selling your striped bass credits
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That's why I said "Hidden Locations" nobody will know if I am planting the rocks or not :D

I'm happy to cede a second fish(giving you what you ask for) to a "real" client (who doesn't have to opportunity to fish often and might not without a second bass) of a "real" charter (who believes and demonstrates that the second fish is essential to the survival of his business) ...as was pointed out...there's probably lots of pretenders out there who will benefit from two fish who probably shouldn't if there is an exemption granted all charters and it sounds like they're easy to spot:eyes:... as well as many who say they don't want that second fish but might be or feel obligated

I guess I misinterpreted this .
Kind of just messing with you Scott, at this point, that's what this thread has turned into.
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I guess I misinterpreted this .
Kind of just messing with you Scott, at this point, that's what this thread has turned into.
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i give you credit for hanging in for 20 pages

i give you credit for hanging in for 20 pages

It's definitely going to get fun around here if the charter boats are granted two fish 😀
We might have to put up a suicide watch
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Nothing personal Buckman,but in 20 pages you have the majority of posts.
This issue obviously has touched a nerve with you,yet you accuse others of being ready to kill themselves...
Where does this put you on the Samaritan watch?
Whatever happens will have to suffice but in this country that doesn't mean we have to like it.
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Thanks to New Jersey other states now have an opening:

On Thursday, the New Jersey Marine Fisheries Council approved an option for a two-fish limit for the 2015 striped bass season. The approved option allows for one fish between 28 to 43 inches and another fish at 43 inches and above. The size and bag limit must now meet with legislative approval.
The Council was considering the nine original options contained in the Draft Addendum IV, which calls for a 25 percent reduction in the recreational harvest of striped bass, plus two other options of one fish between 29 from to 36 inches with another over 36 inches; and one bass from 28 to 42 inches with another over 42 inches.
However, based on a recommendation from the ASMFC Technical Committee, the Council elected to go up one inch. The approved option provides for a 25.1 percent reduction.
Russ Allen, a fisheries biologist with the New Jersey Bureau of Marine Fisheries who helped develop the options, said a bill containing the measure should be ready to go in about a week.

Bass fishermen have been divided on the issue of the reduction with some in favor of protecting the stock with a one-fish limit at 28 inches. Charter and party boat captains, however, feared that a one-fish limit would hurt an already suffering business.

well- the "its not fair" statement is exactly the point of these 20 pages of discussion, isn't it? just because "its the law" sure as hell doesn't mean its fair.....

On Thursday, the New Jersey Marine Fisheries Council approved an option for a two-fish limit for the 2015 striped bass season. The approved option allows for one fish between 28 to 43 inches and another fish at 43 inches and above. The size and bag limit must now meet with legislative approval.



43" trophy:gh:. Everyone should be ok with that

Whatever happens will have to suffice but in this country that doesn't mean we have to like it.
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True !
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FYI

One thing I find wrong with that NJ proposal is the second fish size. And the 2nd fish altogether.
NY had 1@28 and another @40 but the vast majority of fisherman who keep their catch go by 2@28 and do not even know what the law says. Some do and don't care. That's what will happen in NJ.
It seems that the scientists who calculate how equivalency comes about will say anything. We started with 1@32 and 25% commercial cut from last years take ( not LY allowance ) and that supposedly gives us 25% overall. There is no way any of the options now being floated are going to equal that number but they seem to agree with the locals that it will. Smell a few rats ?
Finding a 43" fish off the beach is skilled work and still somewhat lucky. Finding a 43" fish with a skilled charter captain, or a head boat captain...not so difficult. Too many fish of the spawning size will be killed.

43" is kinda arbitrary.....?

43" is kinda arbitrary.....?

From what the article said Jersey was told they had to add the inch to make it 43 from 42 because the numbers wouldn't work.
Amazing that this all comes down to mathmaticians and number crunchers but that is our system.

sounds like they might get to do it either way...unless everyone is fishing at 1@.....the Canal massacre was an interesting point... the way things stand , the Canal massacre should be half as bad next year...looks like the BI massacre could be pretty much the same

They'll just dump the smaller fish in the woods one fish sooner than they did last year. Or run one at a time up to their trucks instead of two at a time.

No matter what they change the law to, certain groups who "forget" how to speak English when DEM is around will continue to catch as many as they want as small as they want like they always have. Most of the time DEM won't waste the time trying to explain anything or write a citation. At most they chase them off and attempt to tell them it's illegal, but tomorrow that same group will be back in the same spot. Most recreational fishermen like the majority here are not the problem. Enforce the laws, give citations to all these damn "Undocumented Democrats" and crack down on the illegals keeping 18" bass. I've seen it many times.. called DEM 3 or 4 times and have seen them actually respond a grand total of ZERO times. Many of us bust our ass just to find a keeper, while certain populations keep every freaking thing that bites their line.

No matter what regs the powers at be come up with, there will always be someone breaking the rules. Even if the shut it down totally.

Speaking of enforcement, I love seeing MEP guys and gals doing road details. Pisses me off to be honest. theres not enough enforcement out in the woods or on the water but yet they are watching people repair the roadways.:1poke:

Many of us bust our ass just to find a keeper, while certain populations keep every freaking thing that bites their line.

I assume you mean the Irish and English American poachers from Tilghman Island. No doubt they are the worst. And doing it for money too... scum bags.

I assume you mean the Irish and English American poachers from Tilghman Island. No doubt they are the worst. And doing it for money too... scum bags.

What I have seen around here has been mostly families of I think Guatemalans and then smaller groups of 3 or 4 Chinese and sometimes Vietnamese men. Families (sometimes 15 or 20 people) seem to always be on the shore in a few spots near Middletown, they keep a lot of small fish, but I am sure they eat them and need the food. Of course if they were working and not sitting in those 2 or 3 spots sort of hidden off the road all day every day, all summer long, maybe they wouldnt need to keep illegal fish.

The Asian guys pop up all over, will plop down on your shoulder and fish right on top of you. I see them target blackfish more often than bass, but they keep every fish they catch.

I don't want to drive this thread off into the woods on a rant about illegals and their fishing practices but it bugs me to see people dump on legal fishermen (yes charter guys count) who may have legitimate reasons for trying to get the exception of the 2nd fish.

It just grinds my gears when I know any of us that can't fake a foreign language and pretend to not understand the DEM officer, would get hammered doing the stuff some of these illegals get away with all season long.

No matter what regs the powers at be come up with, there will always be someone breaking the rules. Even if the shut it down totally.

Speaking of enforcement, I love seeing MEP guys and gals doing road details. Pisses me off to be honest. theres not enough enforcement out in the woods or on the water but yet they are watching people repair the roadways.:1poke:

This is only something I've noticed the the last couple years. There has been three of them working details in Cambridge during the entire hunting season . I wonder how far they drive the pick up trucks into "work"every day and how they are able to accomplish their real job if they are in the city in the daylight hours
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What I have seen around here has been mostly families of I think Guatemalans and then smaller groups of 3 or 4 Chinese and sometimes Vietnamese men. Families (sometimes 15 or 20 people) seem to always be on the shore in a few spots near Middletown, they keep a lot of small fish, but I am sure they eat them and need the food. Of course if they were working and not sitting in those 2 or 3 spots sort of hidden off the road all day every day, all summer long, maybe they wouldnt need to keep illegal fish.

The Asian guys pop up all over, will plop down on your shoulder and fish right on top of you. I see them target blackfish more often than bass, but they keep every fish they catch.

I don't want to drive this thread off into the woods on a rant about illegals and their fishing practices but it bugs me to see people dump on legal fishermen (yes charter guys count) who may have legitimate reasons for trying to get the exception of the 2nd fish.

It just grinds my gears when I know any of us that can't fake a foreign language and pretend to not understand the DEM officer, would get hammered doing the stuff some of these illegals get away with all season long.

You can feel better then that the biggest poaching jobs are done by the English speaking guys. Not sure how those Guatemalans can be here not working and at the same time stealing jobs from Americans, but you are right, better not to get off the point of the thread.
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I assume you mean the Irish and English American poachers from Tilghman Island. No doubt they are the worst. And doing it for money too... scum bags.

Go fish in Quincy...you want to see the worst of the worst...and they don't speak English so well....
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I live on Wollaston beach in Quincy.
I amazed there are gulls and pigeons still alive in my neighborhood.
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I live on Wollaston beach in Quincy.
I amazed there are gulls and pigeons still alive in my neighborhood.
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I grew up right off Wolly Beach...times have changed
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2 litre soda bottles filled with periwinkles roasting in the summer sun......mmmmmm....mmmmmm....good !
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Go fish in Quincy...you want to see the worst of the worst...and they don't speak English so well....
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Nothing better than doing a charter with a group of these guys.
No filleting ever or left over live bait.
Wonder how a pogie taste cooked in a wok

Wonder how a pogie taste cooked in a wok

I in the past have accidentally slow cooked pogie in a igloo cooler in the back of my suv. Judging from that smell I think they would be horrendous, no matter how much soy sauce you dumped on it....

I in the past have accidentally slow cooked pogie in a igloo cooler in the back of my suv. Judging from that smell I think they would be horrendous, no matter how much soy sauce you dumped on it....

Some sweet & sour, a little MSG and you got some goood eating.
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This is NYS marine resource advisory council's meeting summary which gives a good summary of the discussion in NY. As of mid November.

http://www.somas.stonybrook.edu/community/MRAC/bulletins/MRACBulletin2014-11-18.pdf
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the most salient point is Charlie Witek's comment about managing "live fish" not dead fish.....

and not just thinking about killing them in 2015, but having them around to fish for in 2020........

Go fish in Quincy...you want to see the worst of the worst...and they don't speak English so well....
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It is opinion really, but the ones I despise the most are the ones who take 10's of thousands of pounds for no reason other than money. I don't like anyone poaching, but the guys making money poaching/selling illegally are much worse to me than someone who is keeping them to eat. In any case, the poachers come in all shapes and sizes. Some just are easy to spot and others are pro's at hiding it.

It is opinion really, but the ones I despise the most are the ones who take 10's of thousands of pounds for no reason other than money. I don't like anyone poaching, but the guys making money poaching/selling illegally are much worse to me than someone who is keeping them to eat. In any case, the poachers come in all shapes and sizes. Some just are easy to spot and others are pro's at hiding it.

It's not opinion, it's fact. Have you ever been there to see it??? Too bad you despise one over the other, you should reconsider...I on the other hand despise both sides that don't abide by the law...even if they claim stupid...I guess you have different standards of judging people
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It's not opinion, it's fact. Have you ever been there to see it??? Too bad you despise one over the other, you should reconsider...I on the other hand despise both sides that don't abide by the law...even if they claim stupid...I guess you have different standards of judging people
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If it is about abiding by the law, then why is the language part a primary focus? Have I been there to see what? I know all kinds of people poach. The language they speak is irrelevant, whether they keep 10 undersized fish in Quincy or 200,000 lbs on the bay. I don't have different standards for judging people, though I did judge the motivation for the acts. On that you are right, they are both bad as I believe I said. I also despise the charter boat slaughter off the block and the massacre on the banks of the canal and those are legal so I guess I will work on straightening out how I rank my despising.

If it is about abiding by the law, then why is the language part a primary focus? Have I been there to see what? I know all kinds of people poach. The language they speak is irrelevant, whether they keep 10 undersized fish in Quincy or 200,000 lbs on the bay. I don't have different standards for judging people, though I did judge the motivation for the acts. On that you are right, they are both bad as I believe I said. I also despise the charter boat slaughter off the block and the massacre on the banks of the canal and those are legal so I guess I will work on straightening out how I rank my despising.

I think we agree on the fundamentals that poaching is poaching no matter which way you slice it or who does it...the language part is used as the excuse of not being able to understand the law...when in reality it's ingnorence of the law...
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You know, I saw quite a few guys riding two big bass up to their trucks this summer while there was a cow blitz at a certain 400 yard stretch of Canal. No rods or gear on the bike. Then saw them a half hour later riding two more up there. On closed commercial days. Then riding back down to their gear and fishing again.

They all speak English pretty well. Like they were born here. Which, since I know most of them by sight if not by name, they were.
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MA Enviromental Police Hotline
800-632-8075

I think we agree on the fundamentals that poaching is poaching no matter which way you slice it or who does it...the language part is used as the excuse of not being able to understand the law...when in reality it's ingnorence of the law...
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Try that in Russia or just about anywhere else.

there are (respected) members here who have suggested to friends that any decent fish they catch in the canal, they should give them a call and they'll come get it- and then sell it-

and they are good "recreational" guys....

the problem with striped bass is that they are worth too much

This is NYS marine resource advisory council's meeting summary which gives a good summary of the discussion in NY. As of mid November.

http://www.somas.stonybrook.edu/community/MRAC/bulletins/MRACBulletin2014-11-18.pdf
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After you read this you will understand how badly New jersey threw bass under the bus. Now it will be hard to stop most of the states from going with two fish limits. Once again the public that bothered to give comments will be ignored. Plus note just how big a percentage the charters are on the fish killed in NY.

After you read this you will understand how badly New jersey threw bass under the bus. Now it will be hard to stop most of the states from going with two fish limits. Once again the public that bothered to give comments will be ignored. Plus note just how big a percentage the charters are on the fish killed in NY.

I read that too.
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After you read this you will understand how badly New jersey threw bass under the bus. Now it will be hard to stop most of the states from going with two fish limits. Once again the public that bothered to give comments will be ignored. Plus note just how big a percentage the charters are on the fish killed in NY.

It has been getting leaner and leaner for the shore guys down there for awhile now.

As long as were talking, I find the concept of who is a charter captain and who is a commercial fisherman interesting. For the purpose of the IRS how many trips do you need to take before your a charter captain is it one per year or is it a certain amount? Point being: I get the feeling that there are guys out there that say they are charter captains but are really in another occupation and just supplement there income by chartering. I have some sympathy for someone whose full time profession is chartering vs. a part timer. Additionally on a different point. I am sick to death of the so-called commercial fishermen who have other full time real jobs and commercially bass fish. In specific I know full time fireman and policemen who beat the hell out of the bass. I wonder how many of the guys commercial fishing at the block last year? I would suspect very few. Most probably had other jobs which they supplemented by helping to destroy a public resource. And don't tell me that they are providing a public service to feed bass to people who don't have access to bass to eat. No their doing it for the money pure and simple. If your a real commercial fisherman or charter captain, meaning that's how you feed your family I have sympathy, but not for the others.

As long as were talking, I find the concept of who is a charter captain and who is a commercial fisherman interesting. For the purpose of the IRS how many trips do you need to take before your a charter captain is it one per year or is it a certain amount? Point being: I get the feeling that there are guys out there that say they are charter captains but are really in another occupation and just supplement there income by chartering. I have some sympathy for someone whose full time profession is chartering vs. a part timer. Additionally on a different point. I am sick to death of the so-called commercial fishermen who have other full time real jobs and commercially bass fish. In specific I know full time fireman and policemen who beat the hell out of the bass. I wonder how many of the guys commercial fishing at the block last year? I would suspect very few. Most probably had other jobs which they supplemented by helping to destroy a public resource. And don't tell me that they are providing a public service to feed bass to people who don't have access to bass to eat. No their doing it for the money pure and simple. If your a real commercial fisherman or charter captain, meaning that's how you feed your family I have sympathy, but not for the others.

Nowadays a lot of people have two jobs. It's what people do to get by.
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I will make sure I tell that to the fire captain in town that purchased a house on Martha's Vineyard with the proceeds of his commercial bass fishing. How about the teachers fishing off the block the last few summers. I am sure they are having a rough time in this economy. Especially after they had their pensions cut back last year. You guys have all the excuses anyway to get a bigger piece of the pie than the next guy. I reassert my belief that started this discussion. The rules should be the same for everyone. If they are not, special interests groups will fight for the crumbs that remain and eventually here will be no bass to fish for.

You are entitled to reap the benefit$ of this public resource just as much the next guy.
Just because you choose not to, doesn't make it wrong for others to do so.

Nowadays a lot of people have two jobs. It's what people do to get by.
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Or 3.
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I will make sure I tell that to the fire captain in town that purchased a house on Martha's Vineyard with the proceeds of his commercial bass fishing. How about the teachers fishing off the block the last few summers. I am sure they are having a rough time in this economy. Especially after they had their pensions cut back last year. You guys have all the excuses anyway to get a bigger piece of the pie than the next guy. I reassert my belief that started this discussion. The rules should be the same for everyone. If they are not, special interests groups will fight for the crumbs that remain and eventually here will be no bass to fish for.

Do you really believe someone built a house on Martha's Vineyard from the proceeds from commercial bass fishing ?
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Some folks in this discussion are truly delusional.

Yeah, money has a funny way of doing that to people.
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You know what's delusional? Saying killing 2 fish is equal to killing 1 fish. Now that's delusional.
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Vineyard ?
Psssshhh- he must suck. My Bass money is going my new homestead on Nantucket.
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You know what's delusional? Saying killing 2 fish is equal to killing 1 fish. Now that's delusional.
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Exactly
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You know what's delusional? Saying killing 2 fish is equal to killing 1 fish. Now that's delusional.
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It's the opportunity to catch two larger fish fish versus the opportunity to catch one smaller fish.
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Delusional
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That's baloney, any charter worth his salt will put his client on large, much larger than 33 inches. One 30 lber is plenty, and they can keep catching all day and throwing them back. And if they need more meat, go for fluke, sea bass or scup, or stop at the fish market and buy them some fillets on top of the 400 dollar fee. And if you tell me you can't put your client on decent fish, that is an obvious sign the stock is in trouble
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I said it once and I will say it again. This is really about charter captians and crew and SELLING bass.
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I said it once and I will say it again. This is really about charter captians and crew and SELLING bass.
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make it a gamefish.

What is delusional is the idea that the population can be properly managed with maximum sustainable yield as the standard.

After a meeting yesterday it appears NY will now also request a two fish bag from ASMFC for all fishermen. These decisions are creating lots of disillusioned recs who are now seeing that the ASMFC public hearing process last year was basically a waste of time. Massachusetts meetings this week - and RI appears to be waiting for the last minute so as to see what other states have done.

Because recreational fisherman have so overwhelmingly been in favor of the one fish option, there have been discussions amongst recs advocating a boycott of the Party and Charter Boat Associations that are favoring the two fish option. With today's widespread communication capabilities along the coast it may just have some effect and if it's all about the money it would give the for-hire guys something to think about if they ostracize themselves from the recreational community.

Striped bass is a unique fishery to the recs and unlike other fisheries they've really got people's attention on this one.

That's baloney, any charter worth his salt will put his client on large, much larger than 33 inches. One 30 lber is plenty, and they can keep catching all day and throwing them back. And if they need more meat, go for fluke, sea bass or scup, or stop at the fish market and buy them some fillets on top of the 400 dollar fee. And if you tell me you can't put your client on decent fish, that is an obvious sign the stock is in trouble
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Most of those "other " fish are not easily obtained on our side of the ditch .
As you guys are aware, bass move, they migrate, they don't stay in the same spot . We had days where you could get bass at Racepoint and the very next day they had moved outside the three-mile zone.
Just because a charter can't catch 2/33 inch fish for every client ,every day does not mean the bass are in trouble nor does it mean the captain is not "worth his salt " (a phrase you guys particularly enjoy)
It will be good if the charterboats get 2 fish then you guys can continue to point fingers . ( something else you seem to particularly enjoy )
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

a few more years of 2 fish being killed and there will not be any bass in the ditch or north of there either

time to sacrifice is now before it's too late

1 fish for all now, before it becomes no fish

recs advocating a boycott of the Party and Charter Boat Associations that are favoring the two fish option. With today's widespread communication capabilities along the coast it may just have some effect



If this isn't pure petty jealousy, I don't know what is.
If you don't get your way, then you're going to boycott. :crying:

I said it once and I will say it again. This is really about charter captians and crew and SELLING bass.
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It's not against the law to sell charter caught bass.
However to your point, if the charter boats do not get 2 fish limit, there will be some sort of amended rule so they will be able to possess more then the 8 fish rec limit on commercial 15 fish days(Monday&thurs).
Right Now it's not an issue. they are allowed 16 fish with 8 guys.(15 can go to market)

If the rec limits on charter boats change to where they are only allowed 8 fish on a commercial day, you can bet there will be something coming to amend that from the commercial front.

Because recreational fisherman have so overwhelmingly been in favor of the one fish option, there have been discussions amongst recs advocating a boycott of the Party and Charter Boat Associations that are favoring the two fish option. With today's widespread communication capabilities along the coast it may just have some effect and if it's all about the money it would give the for-hire guys something to think about if they ostracize themselves from the recreational community.

Striped bass is a unique fishery to the recs and unlike other fisheries they've really got people's attention on this one.

Threats ??? Real class
I change my mind… When would you like to book the trip ??
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Threats ??? Real class
I change my mind… When would you like to book the trip ??
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

It's a topic of conversation in circulation and it's not my idea. Not going fishing is not a threat. It's merely a decision not to lend financial support to a group that does not share a similar conservation ethic.

Thanks for the offer but I wouldn't like to book a trip.

FYI...the analysis of potential reduction in the below chart was not done in segments. It was a fishery wide analysis. To suggest that the same reductions will apply if this is pick and choose by subset of the is just inaccurate. No one has seen analysis of split regs. IT may not be possible.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/thefishingfreak/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2014-12-11-16-49-14_zpsbi5frcos.png (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/thefishingfreak/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2014-12-11-16-49-14_zpsbi5frcos.png.html)

If this isn't pure petty jealousy, I don't know what is.
If you don't get your way, then you're going to boycott. :crying:

There're plenty of Charter captains that do favor a one-fish option. They're not too popular with some of there associates right now but they have been speaking up commendably in the face of criticism. If you're going to take a charter it only seems logical to write your check out to someone who shares a similar attitude about the resource.

A lesson in history and a question at the end.

History: Three years ago Gulf of Maine advocates were in a similar argument. We needed a Haddock reduction and privates wanted a ten fish limit while the charter fleet was stating they must have unlimited bag limit to sell charters. The charter fleet won and we stayed at unlimited for the 2013 season. When the catch data came in we caught more than 200% of our quota. This is why, even though our haddock quota recently more than doubled we are only going to have a bag limit of less than 5 haddock in 2015.

Current SB debate: IF MA can analyze, predict and manage split regulations NOW then they can surely can do so after the fact when there is more data.

It is known that if the fishery does not make the required 25% reduction we will be required to adjust regs again and next time there WILL BE closures. In New England I think this will be closures during at least part of May or September.

QUESTION: Are the 2 fish for the charter fleet advocates on this page willing to agree to split accountability measures? If your risky reg does not work (just like what happened with haddock) will you agree now to follow the data you are selling now and put into regulation a guarantee of split accountability?

FYI, it looks like NY is going to opt for two fish, one in a 28-34 slot and another over 38 (or so) inches, for all recreational anglers.

There're plenty of Charter captains that do favor a one-fish option. They're not too popular with some of there associates right now but they have been speaking up commendably in the face of criticism. If you're going to take a charter it only seems logical to write your check out to someone who shares a similar attitude about the resource.

A personal decision based on beliefs is one thing . An organized effort to put people out of business that don't agree with your certain group is wrong .
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Un #^&#^&#^&#^&ing believable, you want to keep two schoolies because all the big fish moved to the eez. Nope, no issue with the stocks. And if there weren't issues with the stock, any charter that "doesn't suck" should have no trouble catching a decent fish. So the captain either sucks, or the stock is in trouble. So if you don't believe the stock is in trouble, well then you must suck
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

FYI, it looks like NY is going to opt for two fish, one in a 28-34 slot and another over 38 (or so) inches, for all recreational anglers.



Let me get this straight. The first fish can only be between. 28-34 inches and not above 38 and the second can only be over 38?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

FYI, it looks like NY is going to opt for two fish, one in a 28-34 slot and another over 38 (or so) inches, for all recreational anglers.

Not as good as 1 @ 28" but not as bad as some of the options that have been mentioned. At least they have the same regulations for all recreation anglers (no special treatment for charters) and they offer some protection for larger fish with one of the fish needing to be under 34".

Let me get this straight. The first fish can only be between. 28-34 inches and not above 38 and the second can only be over 38?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Doesn't sound right to me either .
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Here's what I found:


STRIPED BASS (MARINE WATERS)

Length: 1 @ 28" - 40", a 2nd >40" Creel limit: 2 Season: April 15 - December 15
Special Conditions:
Marine Waters - South of George Washington Bridge. Recreational anglers may possess one striped bass between 28" and 40", and one additional striped bass over 40

If that's the case, because the word "or" isn't in there, that means the first fish can only be a slot fish. And the second one can only be a trophy.

So you are screwed if your first fish is a 50 pounder. ;)
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Congratulations, charter, for hires, commercials you are now free to eradicate the species. What are you going to destroy next? Cant get to fresh water its managed by the dept. of the interior not the dept. of commerce. Looks like the special interests will prevail over the will of the people.

Here's what I found:


STRIPED BASS (MARINE WATERS)

Length: 1 @ 28" - 40", a 2nd >40" Creel limit: 2 Season: April 15 - December 15
Special Conditions:
Marine Waters - South of George Washington Bridge. Recreational anglers may possess one striped bass between 28" and 40", and one additional striped bass over 40

Those are the current (2014) NY regulations. They have had a slot fish and a "trophy" fish for awhile.

Sounds like New York's proposal for 2015 is one fish between 28 - 34" and one fish over 38" (or whatever length ASMFC will agree gives them the 25% reduction).

A personal decision based on beliefs is one thing . An organized effort to put people out of business that don't agree with your certain group is wrong .
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Every individual has the right and final say to spend his money as he sees fit. We have had an organized effort here in RI by the Party and Charter Boat Assn to hold a private meeting with our state rep without anyone else's knowledge or notification. This is still a representative democracy where the majority elects the representatives to make the laws. Not a private club of lobbyists.

The tackle shops and tackle dealers that make their money and employ people by serving the inshore and shore fishing sectors have been hurt financially, the fly shops and guides have been hurt or are out of business, and a good number of Charter captain's see a stronger long term business plan with the one-fish option. These groups see the push for a two-fish option as a near-sighted organized effort during private meetings putting them out of business as a byproduct of the speculation of a quick buck.

QUESTION: Are the 2 fish for the charter fleet advocates on this page willing to agree to split accountability measures? If your risky reg does not work (just like what happened with haddock) will you agree now to follow the data you are selling now and put into regulation a guarantee of split accountability?

It is my understanding based on the asmfc's math, that the only difference between option A&B is a small percentage.
Whereas one option is giving a 31% outcome and the other has a 29% outcome.
Now I understand that there will be mathematical differences if one group picks a different option than another group. so lets call it a 10% or maybe even 15% difference in that case.
If what your asking is will the "special group" live and die by the percentage difference they opted for? then I don't see why not.
However If you are equating 2 fish as a 100% increase and difference based on simply that 2 is 100% more than 1, Then no.
We all agree that 2 fish is more than 1 fish, but based on the options we are shown, it is not the same percentage.

Those are the current (2014) NY regulations. They have had a slot fish and a "trophy" fish for awhile.

Sounds like New York's proposal for 2015 is one fish between 28 - 34" and one fish over 38" (or whatever length ASMFC will agree gives them the 25% reduction).

Sorry. I assume the new regs have not been published.

If this isn't pure petty jealousy, I don't know what is.
If you don't get your way, then you're going to boycott. :crying:

Kind of what you said about the site
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

FY No one has seen analysis of split regs. IT may not be possible.

isn't this an example of the split regs?
http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripertalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=60433&d=1420829068

Kind of what you said about the site
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Kind of.

Bottom line killing two fish is worse for the population than killing one. It seems obvious to anyone who is not going to profit from the death/ harvesting of those fish. As Winston Churchill put it "there are lies, dammed lies, and statistics." Those who hide behind those stats are not fooling anyone

Let me get this straight. The first fish can only be between. 28-34 inches and not above 38 and the second can only be over 38?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

No one said first fish has to be in the slot, the first fish could be the trophy and the second fish in the slot. Besides, as a practical matter, there would be no practical way to enforce it, if the first fish had to be the slot fish.

FYI, it looks like NY is going to opt for two fish, one in a 28-34 slot and another over 38 (or so) inches, for all recreational anglers.

Regarding NY...MRAC looks like it's going that way as a recommendation...if the science says it works. Note that the above 28-34 vs 28-40 and 36,37, 38 or even 40 min depending on the scientists vs 40+ (existing reg) is basically no change. So if they say 10-20-30% reduction you know they are smoking something ! Then ASMFC has to weigh the advice. If it goes 2 fish anywhere and less than 25% on catch not quota we are all going Bluefishing sooner than planned.:af:

One more note on this subject. The "certainty" or degree of accuracy on all of the split proposals goes way down. So the 50% chance of overall success is gone and we are left with a WAG.
So that's what the math will be.

I also don't see how NY is much of a reduction over current size guidelines. It seems almost similar
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Regarding NY...MRAC looks like it's going that way as a recommendation...if the science says it works. Note that the above 28-34 vs 28-40 and 36,37, 38 or even 40 min depending on the scientists vs 40+ (existing reg) is basically no change. So if they say 10-20-30% reduction you know they are smoking something ! Then ASMFC has to weigh the advice. If it goes 2 fish anywhere and less than 25% on catch not quota we are all going Bluefishing sooner than planned.:af:

The MRAC already voted that as their recommendation.

Anyone go to any of the meetings the last couple days?

Those are the current (2014) NY regulations. They have had a slot fish and a "trophy" fish for awhile.

Sounds like New York's proposal for 2015 is one fish between 28 - 34" and one fish over 38" (or whatever length ASMFC will agree gives them the 25% reduction).

You are correct. The actual min size of the "trophy" is TBD by the scientists. But the ASMFC can still ignore the recommendations of the MRAC. It's going to come down to (someone/group within MRAC or DEC) demonstarting that doing just about what we did in past years will suddenly and magically produce a reduction in mortality. But with all of this petty two fish support from special interests my guess is 2 fish it will be. I hope not. Very sad and discouraging.
Incidentally, because I fish very actively in NY where we see a lot of urban guys as well as LI guys out there fishing plugs, bait and wait etc. I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that everyone thinks the 2014 regs say 2@28+. Most don't know or they just ignore the 1@28+ and another at 40+.

It looks like the ASMFC has put out the agenda for next months winter meeting. The agenda each states conservation equivalency plans outlined. IT seems like a lot of New England states are using MRIP landings data as the base for their recreational reduction calculations.

http://www.asmfc.org/files/Meetings/Winter2015/AtlanticStripedBassBoard.pdf

Start reading on page 97.

"The data presented in Tables 1-3 clearly identifies that a 30% reduction will result from the private and
shore modes and a 28% reduction will result from the for-hire modes resulting in an average reduction of
29%.
 RI will explore the possibility of implementing mandatory trip-level reporting for the for-hire mode should
this proposal be approved."

So, all of the coastal states, except for Maine and NH. have a two fish option on the table.

I had to get the post count off 666 or all the fish just might end up going the way of the narwhal
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If I read the document right it looks like CT prefers 1&28 across the board nd is only looking at a two fish option for the for hire boats if RI gets it so that the two stares can share the same regulations.
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So, all of the coastal states, except for Maine and NH. have a two fish option on the table.

I believe VA and NC have 1 fish but they are not major considerations quantity wise, although they do get to vote.

A few words on the process.

States have already submitted to ASMFC all the options they are considering. In two weeks the ASMFC armed with ASMFC Technical Committee advice, the ASMFC will approve the options the states have submitted...or will not approve.

Then each state completes its individual process and set its regulations.

For example, MA submitted all of the options that went to public hearing. Each of the options were evaluated and IF they are approved at the ASMFC meeting, then a week later the MA Marine Fisheries Commission will hear a presentation from Director Diodati and give him a recommendation on what options to implement for MA.

fYI

I don,t know who if anyone is going ... But S/M >>RISSA .has modified their stance on THIS ..... [they feel it would be unfair not to allow the charter industry in RI to be allowed to take 2 bass per person ....REASONING [$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ] <<RISSA sponcers /// but verbly ... it would hurt RI because all the other states are going with 2 fish ///////meeting tomorrow as if it hasn,t already been decided :wid:

Bummer. I read the RISAA statement, and I don't agree with it for all the obvious reasons. The real fault rests with the ASMFC for allowing any exception to the one fish at 28" for anyone. Ironically, the guys going out on a charter probably don't even own a fishing rod, while the average rec guys spends plenty on their gear (if the economic issue is a factor in addition to striper conservation). RISAA's concession is that the captain and his mates not be allowed to keep their two bass. You're right Clammer; it's all about money, but in a myopic way.

very disappointing... but I cant say I'm surprised.

That's odd. I'm a member of RISAA and I've never been polled about this from them. All RISAA members that I know are opposed to two bass for charters, and lots of us are charter captains as well.

I probably won't renew my membership.

from the front page or RISSA's December newsletter

"At its November meeting, RISAA’s Legislative Committee
voted to ask RISAA Board of Directiors to send a letter to the
ASMFC and to Rhode Island’s commissioners to hold fast to
the "one-fish at 28 inches" rule and insist that any
“environmental equivalency” be equal to the same one-fish
reduction level of 31% and not at the 25% level that was proposed
when other options were presented to fishermen. "


from their November Newsletter

"The coastal recreational fishery harvest will be reduced by
implementing a one fish bag limit while keeping a 28”
size limit. Under Amendment 6, states may use conservation
equivalency to develop state-specific measures that are different
than a one fish bag limit and 28” size limit for their coastal
fisheries but still achieve a 25% reduction in harvest"

• Steve Medeiros, RISAA president, reported “While not a major
win for striped bass, the ASMFC Striped Bass Management
Board yesterday took steps in the right direction.”

today,,, RISAA: Realizing that the charter boats in all coastal states will be getting two fish for their customers, the RISAA board has determined it would be unfair to RI's charter boats to be restricted to one fish per customer. This would hurt the charter industry and the RI economy. But conserving striped bass is still important.

Steve Medeiros
per RISAA Board of Directors



quite an about face....

Roger , RISSA is made up of XXxx number of Fishing clubs ... etc , etc , etc . they have ONe highly paid president that has been being pounded ever since He came out against the 2 fish for charter captains ..who are the main sponcers of RISSA........ Do you REALLY think you have any say on what RISSA votes for ><><again its about the MONEY :hidin:


Today he said they changed their minds because all the others states are going with 2 fish for the charter industry ..the last I n heard & I could be wrong ... they were waiting of what RI does .....either way :does 2 .or 3 wrongs make a right ....................... they than say all the f #^&#^&#^&#^&#^& want .......... but 2 fish dead is more than one fish dead & it will help have a negative effect of the fishery >>.:bs::nailem::nailem:

Roger , RISSA is made up of XXxx number of Fishing clubs ... etc , etc , etc . they have ONe highly paid president that has been being pounded ever since He came out against the 2 fish for charter captains ..who are the main sponcers of RISSA........ Do you REALLY think you have any say on what RISSA votes for ><><again its about the MONEY :hidin:


Today he said they changed their minds because all the others states are going with 2 fish for the charter industry ..the last I n heard & I could be wrong ... they were waiting of what RI does .....either way :does 2 .or 3 wrongs make a right ....................... they than say all the f #^&#^&#^&#^&#^& want .......... but 2 fish dead is more than one fish dead & it will help have a negative effect of the fishery >>.:bs::nailem::nailem:

Bummer... :doh:

Everyone knows why Cod collapsed and its not from rods and reels and charter guys...it's from catch shares & draggers...period.
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Exemptions for special interest groups. :wave:

Wow

from the front page or RISSA's December newsletter

"At its November meeting, RISAA’s Legislative Committee
voted to ask RISAA Board of Directiors to send a letter to the
ASMFC and to Rhode Island’s commissioners to hold fast to
the "one-fish at 28 inches" rule and insist that any
“environmental equivalency” be equal to the same one-fish
reduction level of 31% and not at the 25% level that was proposed
when other options were presented to fishermen. "


from their November Newsletter

"The coastal recreational fishery harvest will be reduced by
implementing a one fish bag limit while keeping a 28”
size limit. Under Amendment 6, states may use conservation
equivalency to develop state-specific measures that are different
than a one fish bag limit and 28” size limit for their coastal
fisheries but still achieve a 25% reduction in harvest"

• Steve Medeiros, RISAA president, reported “While not a major
win for striped bass, the ASMFC Striped Bass Management
Board yesterday took steps in the right direction.”

today,,, RISAA: Realizing that the charter boats in all coastal states will be getting two fish for their customers, the RISAA board has determined it would be unfair to RI's charter boats to be restricted to one fish per customer. This would hurt the charter industry and the RI economy. But conserving striped bass is still important.

Steve Medeiros
per RISAA Board of Directors



quite an about face....

The reason I quit RISAA a number of years ago is because the "Club" (loosely called) is run by a bunch of buffoons who, either directly or indirectly, line their pockets at the expense of the fishing population and the uneducated recreational fishermen. There have been abuses levied by this group for the last 10 years.

Remember folks - this is tonight.

1 fish for Charter - same as Recreational.

We all need to err on the side of conservation.

Im not surprised at risaa flip flopping and supporting the for hire vessels at 2 fish per person per day meanwhile the brunt of any reductions being made will be shouldered by surfcasters. I wouldnt expect anything more from them, par for the course for them and Madeiros. Forget the longevity of the species, lets take the more money now option... Economics 101 a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow.
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Pathetic, hope you charter guys are happy with yourselves

I'll be talking with Steve Medeiros and will ask him why RISAA changed and if it was the entire membership or just a committee. They mentioned it would hurt the industry and be bad for RI economics but I have yet to see any data to corroborate this claim.

just the committee DZ

Where did he get the idea that "all" coastal states are allowing 2 fish for charters?
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Change their position the weekend before the public comment meeting....doesn't give their membership a lot of time to process the decision and comment on it.
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EXACTLY

The politics and outcome of this whole situation is absurd.

I vote for unlimited fish without limit. Put an end to the striped bass and the idiots who think there is nothing wrong with the fishery. Let them make there money...when they are done taking from the ocean they will then cry to uncle sam and we will need to support them through unemployment.

The best we can do is to put our efforts into reducing pressure on the fishery on a personal level. Dueling with the village idiot gets us nowhere.
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I'll tell you what. We will only keep one fish per client this year .... You're welcome for saving the striped bass 👍
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Atta boy !
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I am not making tonight - please pass the word - 1 fish.

why should an angler who fishes on a charter boat be allowed to keep twice as many stripers as the guy in the surf? because he paid to go on a boat? or how about joe blow on his own boat he can only keep one? I will support those charters in favor of the 1 fish per angler, the others- not so much.

this is so true

I think word of mouth will take on a new meaning this year... Truly conservation minded charter businesses will be highly recommended and flourish... and out for a buck boats killing maximums at all costs will also exposed word of mouth, and customers can support who they want. Things have a way of working out that way. There is a great restaurant that i love here in town, but the owner is such a greedy rude jerk that i take a pass on my favorite meal... I refuse to put another dime of my money in his pocket.
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i had a feeling RISAA was going to flip flop due due to commercial member pressure.

I am still confident MA is going to end up 1 @ 28 for all. The meeting was postponed until tomorrow and with snow tomorrow is now postponed until March 5. Location TBA.

As individuals we all get to watch how this plays out and our actions are ours and ours alone. As a member of a club I know I will be speaking against allowing any business that supported 2 fish from speaking at my home club. I will personally not support events of clubs that supported 2 fish etc. We vote with our dollars and our voices.

WELL .697 POST ON THIS THREAD >>>>>>>> Yet tonight at the meeting I only saw one member that is active on this site. [THAT I KNOW ].THERE COULD BE A FEW OTHERS . MR DZ & HE SAID HIS PIECE ............. pERSONALLY i JUST TOLD THEM THAT ALL THEIR ARUGMENTS & REASONING .WAS b ULL S HIT ......................................... sooooooooo for me this topic is over & this is the last you,ll ever hear from me on this subject ........ actions are much bigger than words .......... talking B/S is what it is .......... SUPPORT ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, to me it means to back someone up , to say what you feel where it counts ................... 697 posts & it comes down to .ya better take up golf because all your posts don,t mean dict #^&#^&#^&#^& .........sorry with the notice we had . there should have been a t 100 guys at least in favor ................ Don,t tell me you had something came up , or your got called to work ...... Just keep B/S yourselves ....................{I was on the way there but got caught on a ice berg .............or better yet no balls ............. so you get to reap what you sow :soon:

BTW the guys turning custom plugs might just as well stick them up their asses .because there won,t be any basses .. unless you can find nits wits that will pay stupid prices fot plugs to catch BLOOOOOOOOOfish ;:soon::soon::soon::soon:

You guys need to chill ! I know these charter guys are bass killing machines but in reality this is a very small part to the problem . Blaming charter boats has become "cool" to some here .
Can anyone here tell me why this has become such a fiery issue ?
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I have given up. This subject is exhausting. How many years are we going to be debating all this? And it goes on and on when the same fools at the helm who are trying to squeeze all they can from this resource with little to no changes to the law. (face it 25% reduction is laughable ). What an enormous waste of energy.
All this proves my point that until you take the price off the fish's head there is no hope for the species. We are dealing with a lot of people who are selfish and see their right to commercially exploit the resource as their God given right. Who gave them or forced them to do this? They need to pull the plug on all commercial activity, include comm fisherman, charter and even guides who retain "rec" fish. Force them to get a real job and leave the SB alone. We have to abandon the "user group" rights theory along with the naive academic Max sustainable yield theory and focus on the fish itself.
I use to be a 1@ 36 guy with no sale with a strong push for forage fish re-population, but now I am for a complete shut down. Zero retention for the foreseeable future for anyone. The reason I am so extreme now is that people only seem to respond to extremes, talking logically to Marine Fishery people is pointless. I have done this and they have responded with ..."yes but the history of the fishery is a commercial industry", I usually reply with If history is your guide then why don't we still have slavery? Then you get the perplexed look on their faces and then conversation ends and we both walk away calling each other F'in idiots under our breath.

Shut this fishery down once and for all and let's move on already. If you think that fishery managers can actually manage fish...just look at how well they did with the codfish.

Spider crab and jellyfish sandwich anyone?

I am still confident MA is going to end up 1 @ 28 for all. The meeting was postponed until tomorrow and with snow tomorrow is now postponed until March 5. Location TBA.

As individuals we all get to watch how this plays out and our actions are ours and ours alone. As a member of a club I know I will be speaking against allowing any business that supported 2 fish from speaking at my home club. I will personally not support events of clubs that supported 2 fish etc. We vote with our dollars and our voices.

Mass might be the key - at last nights meeting RIDEM said they tried to work with other states but got no response from them - I find that hard to believe. Patrick, you know Diodati - please ask him if RI made any effort to coordinate regs with Mass.
http://vineyardgazette.com/news/2015/02/16/rules-aimed-protecting-striped-bass-will-hold?k=vg54e33906e9c4d&r=1

Can anyone here tell me why this has become such a fiery issue ?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Because most of us have lived through a collapse before and we see it coming and are passionate about the sport we love. There, simple enough for you?

THANK YOU DZ

BTW the guys turning custom plugs might just as well stick them up their asses .because there won,t be any basses .. unless you can find nits wits that will pay stupid prices fot plugs to catch BLOOOOOOOOOfish ;:soon::soon::soon::soon:

maybe we can stick some up your azz too...:humpty:

now that,s a good idea , I,ve been wanting to try that .......... but they want to keep the hooks on ><.,that kinda goes past the kinky side ><><>:spin::spin:

All this proves my point that until you take the price off the fish's head there is no hope for the species.

Agreed. Thanks for posting.
Taking the comercial aspect out of the picture and strict
enforcement of the laws, are really the best hope.


Can anyone here tell me why this has become such a fiery issue ?


I can only speak for myself. I do not point blame at any one source,
but the lions share of the problem falls on the government. Their
lack of ability to manage the resource and enforce law.

My home waters are in the western Long island sound. For the last
two years they are practically void of life. Last year being the
worst. I love fishing and fishing for striped bass. The quality and
quantity I had in my backyard, I can no longer enjoy. Its gone.

I am not perfect. I do not go to these political hearings. Over the
years, I have watched surfcasters harvest fish over limit. I have
boarded charters and made it a point to limit. My own ignorance
contributed to the fall of the fishery.

Really It would be my preference to be in a moratorium. The 1 fish
per angler is a compromise. Any party who argues that we or they
should have 2 fish per angler is really requesting no change and
frankly does not care about the fishery.

Its a heated issue because we are all in a bad place and we are all to
blame. The fishery is hanging by a thread and some parties seem
interested in taking a knife to whats left.

Buckman... At this point, For you to honestly ask why " this has become such a fiery issue" is indication that discussing the topic with you any further is a total waste of time. I dont know you personally, so no direct disrespect... But you get no more of my time.
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I have seen the enemy and he is us

Multiplied by bad management decisions.

You guys need to chill ! I know these charter guys are bass killing machines but in reality this is a very small part to the problem . Blaming charter boats has become "cool" to some here .
Can anyone here tell me why this has become such a fiery issue ?
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Simple. Two major problems of which can be controlled that have lead to the demise are harvest by recs and chartesr. 1@28 for recs was in every way the least that could be done, but a teeny step. The conservation equivalency is complete bs and does nothing to reduce the impact by charters, which is why they asked for it. Result- continued decline of a fishery that is already worse than the regulators will acknowledge. That should be enough to fire up anyone who actually cares.

Does SB.com have an award for nonconservationist of the year award? I nominate Buckman
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSUIQgEVDM4&feature=player_embedded

Because most of us have lived through a collapse before and we see it coming and are passionate about the sport we love. There, simple enough for you?

I take it you won't be fishing for stripers anymore until they have reached your satisfactory level ?
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Does SB.com have an award for nonconservationist of the year award? I nominate Buckman
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Hey buddy, I'm the worst striper fisherman on this site .😀 believe me I'm not the problem
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Mass might be the key - at last nights meeting RIDEM said they tried to work with other states but got no response from them - I find that hard to believe. Patrick, you know Diodati - please ask him if RI made any effort to coordinate regs with Mass.
http://vineyardgazette.com/news/2015/02/16/rules-aimed-protecting-striped-bass-will-hold?k=vg54e33906e9c4d&r=1

Just an FYI, CT has scheduled their public hearing for next Wednesday night, February 25, to address striped bass, scup, fluke and sea bass. An item of note from their official announcement (attached) is the following quote from the section on striped bass. As I read this CT no longer intends to blindly follow RI's lead in respect to split regulations.
Marine Fisheries expects 1 fish at 28 inches to be adopted for the 2015
recreational fishery.

Just an FYI, CT has scheduled their public hearing for next Wednesday night, February 25, to address striped bass, scup, fluke and sea bass. An item of note from their official announcement (attached) is the following quote from the section on striped bass. As I read this CT no longer intends to blindly follow RI's lead in respect to split regulations.

Well in that case, if CT and MA go to one fish, RISAA should flip-flop-flip-flop back to 1 fish, no...? :hs::hs:

Agreed. Thanks for posting.
Taking the comercial aspect out of the picture and strict
enforcement of the laws, are really the best hope.



I can only speak for myself. I do not point blame at any one source,
but the lions share of the problem falls on the government. Their
lack of ability to manage the resource and enforce law.

My home waters are in the western Long island sound. For the last
two years they are practically void of life. Last year being the
worst. I love fishing and fishing for striped bass. The quality and
quantity I had in my backyard, I can no longer enjoy. Its gone.

I am not perfect. I do not go to these political hearings. Over the
years, I have watched surfcasters harvest fish over limit. I have
boarded charters and made it a point to limit. My own ignorance
contributed to the fall of the fishery.

Really It would be my preference to be in a moratorium. The 1 fish
per angler is a compromise. Any party who argues that we or they
should have 2 fish per angler is really requesting no change and
frankly does not care about the fishery.

Its a heated issue because we are all in a bad place and we are all to
blame. The fishery is hanging by a thread and some parties seem
interested in taking a knife to whats left.

Thank you .
I still believe there are a lot of factors and most of them have a far greater bearing on the population then going after the charterboats . I just find it interesting that this is where many here have decided to pick thier battle. Their only battle !
It's symbol of a substance and it won't accomplishes anything .
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Thank you .
I still believe there are a lot of factors and most of them have a far greater bearing on the population then going after the charterboats . I just find it interesting that this is where many here have decided to pick thier battle. Their only battle !
It's symbol of a substance and it won't accomplishes anything .


I think the issue with the charters has more to do some Captains
claiming a hardship and demanding that their clients need a two fish
limit. At least for me, I do not see that there should be any grey
area. As it is the rules are not enforced...never mind making them
more confusing. There is also the issue of some charters keeping
illegal fish and selling them via black market....not helping matters.

All of us have seen casters haul more than two fish to their car. One
night in montauk, the bite was wide open and the creep next to me
kept every single one. He dragged it to the beach where his mob
would take it away.

There is no question....every group has members that are guilty for
bending the rules.

Well in that case, if CT and MA go to one fish, RISAA should flip-flop-flip-flop back to 1 fish, no...? :hs::hs:

you would hope so... it's the risaa committee who supports option #2 not the the membership who i'm sure are against it. maybe risaa should have committee members who speak FOR the membership not their buds and magazine sponsors...just a thought.

So many charter captians and crew take 2 fish home for every trip they go out on and sell their fish, either on the commercial market when it's open or on the black market when it's closed for around 3.50 a pound whole- a 30 pound fish will yield $100.

This is why they are fighting for the 2 fish limit and this is why they say that they will loose money, but they can't say it publicly. Sad.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

So many charter captians and crew take 2 fish home for every trip they go out on and sell their fish, either on the commercial market when it's open or on the black market when it's closed for around 3.50 a pound whole- a 30 pound fish will yield $100.

This is why they are fighting for the 2 fish limit and this is why they say that they will loose money, but they can't say it publicly. Sad.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Yeah you got it all figured out
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

So many charter captians and crew take 2 fish home for every trip they go out on and sell their fish, either on the commercial market when it's open or on the black market when it's closed for around 3.50 a pound whole- a 30 pound fish will yield $100.

This is why they are fighting for the 2 fish limit and this is why they say that they will loose money, but they can't say it publicly. Sad.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

:humpty:

So many charter captians and crew take 2 fish home for every trip they go out on and sell their fish, either on the commercial market when it's open or on the black market when it's closed for around 3.50 a pound whole- a 30 pound fish will yield $100.

This is why they are fighting for the 2 fish limit and this is why they say that they will loose money, but they can't say it publicly. Sad.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Sad indeed and you definitely got it figured out and don't forget the captains know the probability of a customer leaving one of the two bass behind is higher versus the one bass only limit.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Sad indeed and you definitely got it figured out and don't forget the captains know the probability of a customer leaving one of the two bass behind is higher versus the one bass only limit.
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I can honestly say I have never met any charter captains that do that .

But I do know some anglers that do not possess a commercial license that sell bass .
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I should say that not all do this, but some do.
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It's amazing that so many people could be selling so many 30 plus pound striped bass so regularly on the black market that just about everybody knows about it, yet nobody ever seems to get in trouble for it.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

It's amazing that so many people could be selling so many 30 plus pound striped bass so regularly on the black market that just about everybody knows about it, yet nobody ever seems to get in trouble for it.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device


it's not only on the black market, some captains and mates have commercial licenses and sell legally in season.

I take it you won't be fishing for stripers anymore until they have reached your satisfactory level ?
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sure thing
and in 3 years you won't be either


go ahead and support your special regulation all you want
I don't understand why you have a problem with one user group trying to keep things on the level while another wants accommodations made for them if available all the while knowing it is not really a conservation equivalent.

Kind of like the democrats bickering with the republicans, the haves and the have nots.

I'll be catching blues again this coming spring much like I did last spring, then maybe I'll torture some schoolies with a flyrod until there are no more stripers left.

I fished for stripers quite sparingly last season! Figured I would let well enough alone! I have enjoyed spending more time in my kayak in freshwater! Lots of fun, quiet....no bickering.....just nice!

Hey mr Buckman your absolutely right there is a ton of anger being sent the way of the charter boat guys and i will tell you why. For the last five years I have seen my catches and those of my friends go down the the drain. All that time we have screamed to any one that would listen "we have a problem". But you guys insist there is no problem. You tell us that the bass have gone off shore, the are in different places, they no longer swim the places that they have frequented for as long as any one can rember. The for hire guys tell us that there is no problem but every big name in our sport says there is a problem. Zeno, John skinner, pat Abate, Bill Wentzel, D.J. muller, dock Muller, Dave Anderson, Toby Lipinski, Lefty Kreh, etc guess all those guys are wrong there is no bass problem. In addition to telling us there is no problem you post hero pictures of fools holding obscene amounts of large cows that they won't eat. Or worse yet rot in a fares freezer or given to the captain who sells them (many captains have commercial licences don't know if this is legal or not) and then they sell the catch. I live in RI and I go to the bass meetings. I was at URIlast night. And I hear your guys ask for special regulations because because you think loosing he second fish will hurt your bussiness. Who do you think you are wall street? Because you are in bussiness you think you have some god given right to a public resource. No you don't. I dont blame the for hires for all of the bass issues. I don't think 18" fish should be taken in Maryland or Jersey guys can take two bass a day with a third with a trophy tag. And I shure don't like poaching no matter whose doing it. But I can't effect what is going on in Maryland, Jersey or The back door of a newport restaurant. But I can keep going to the meetings and writing letters to try to advocate. I know his is a long rambling post guess its the result of a ton of personal frustration. But it's honestly how I feel. I also must say that I know a bunch of charter captains that I respect who care about the fishery ( these are the captains clients take a few fish a year but mostly encourage clients to release bass and take pictures. Thanks for letting me rant and rave.
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Many Charter captains have never been able to grasp the fact that they are selling an experience... not meat. The failure to realize this simple fact and market their charter business accordingly is their own biggest hindrance, and the root cause of their false assessment that business will suffer if they are forced to provide less "meat".

I wonder how many clients of the for-hire sector have been to any of these meetings or written letters etc. expressing their desire and need to have a second kept bass in order to have any interest in fishing/chartering........

Stating a majority of for hire operators supports 2 fish options is simply incorrect. In MA there are THREE Charterboat Organizations representing 900 licensed for hire vessels. Two of the Three (Cape Cod Charterboat assn & Northeast Charterboat Captains assn.) supported 1 @ 28" for all.

At the MA hearings multiple people testified that they were for hire clients and that they supported 1 @ 28

I can't wait until tax documentation is required to renew both commercial & for hire permits. That day is coming sooner than later.

As a charter Cap I support the 1 fish limit.

Also, I admit, my mate and I have, once or twice a year, taken a fish or two for us to eat when we have been on a charter, which IS legal to do. Other times our clients may give us a few fillets as they didn't need all the fish. But, even with a one fish limit I'm not worried that I won't get a fillet or two, and I'm not worried that it will hurt my business. What I'm worried about is continuing to take 2 times 6 passengers, plus 2 for captain and 2 for mate, and the commercial take - bluefish and sea bass trips in the future.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

It's amazing that so many people could be selling so many 30 plus pound striped bass so regularly on the black market that just about everybody knows about it, yet nobody ever seems to get in trouble for it.
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It is shocking once you understand just how frequently it is happening. This practice is very regional from my experience and displays the piracy that most true commercial fishermen are noted for. The Mom And Pop type of charter operation seem like less likely perps.
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It is shocking once you understand just how frequently it is happening. This practice is very regional from my experience and displays the piracy that most true commercial fishermen are noted for. The Mom And Pop type of charter operation seem like less likely perps.
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But nobody drops a dime or confronts these Pirates?

Everyone knows how much you risk if you get caught poaching.
You could loose your permits, your Capt's license, Your drivers license, Your vessel operators permit, maybe even your gear. Along with a whole bunch of other stuff.
Plus The buyer risks a lot also. A restaurant could loose it's right to operate. A fishmonger could loose it's right to operate.
on and on and on Risk vs Reward is not even close

So many charter captians and crew take 2 fish home for every trip they go out on and sell their fish, either on the commercial market when it's open or on the black market when it's closed for around 3.50 a pound whole- a 30 pound fish will yield $100.

This is why they are fighting for the 2 fish limit and this is why they say that they will loose money, but they can't say it publicly. Sad.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

But the proposal, as currently worded, would specifically ban that practice.

You assume honesty.
I think Diogenes would still be searching with his lantern today.
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But nobody drops a dime or confronts these Pirates?

Everyone knows how much you risk if you get caught poaching.
You could loose your permits, your Capt's license, Your drivers license, Your vessel operators permit, maybe even your gear. Along with a whole bunch of other stuff.
Plus The buyer risks a lot also. A restaurant could loose it's right to operate. A fishmonger could loose it's right to operate.
on and on and on Risk vs Reward is not even close

There really is not much risk when you consider how widespread it is vs. the number of times somebody has been caught.
Bon Apetit
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I was speaking with a local Fish Trap operator about the black market for R&R fish immediatly after RIs meeting. He mentioned that its RAMPANT in the RI fish houses. He has reported it but it gets little action if any at all.

I can't wait until tax documentation is required to renew both commercial & for hire permits. That day is coming sooner than later.

It's about 30 years overdue, and by the way, most other states already have had it for at least that long.

Imagine having to document that at least 50% of your gross income comes from commercial fishing? We'd never have a closed season. Legitimate comms could sell bass all year long, and still maybe not meet the quota.

It's amazing that so many people could be selling so many 30 plus pound striped bass so regularly on the black market that just about everybody knows about it, yet nobody ever seems to get in trouble for it.
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Mike, I know you don't believe it but I personally know of 2 restaurants in East Prov RI that buy black market fish regularly and have for over 30 years.
I know the guys who sell to then. 15 pounds, 30 pounds, doesn't make any difference. Who your gonna tell?? DEM?? By the time they get there the fish are gone.

But nobody drops a dime or confronts these Pirates?

Everyone knows how much you risk if you get caught poaching.
You could loose your permits, your Capt's license, Your drivers license, Your vessel operators permit, maybe even your gear. Along with a whole bunch of other stuff.
Plus The buyer risks a lot also. A restaurant could loose it's right to operate. A fishmonger could loose it's right to operate.
on and on and on Risk vs Reward is not even close

In my harbor the commercial guys police each other. And if you don't believe it then try to do a little illegal selling and find out what happens if the commercial guys find you selling black market.

You might as well not even come back to the harbor.
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In my harbor the commercial guys police each other. And if you don't believe it then try to do a little illegal selling and find out what happens if the commercial guys find you selling black market.

You might as well not even come back to the harbor.
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It happens

Nobody is advertising it?
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But the proposal, as currently worded, would specifically ban that practice.
LoL.
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https://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=9qtKemOHPshXRfTZJM1jM9gloVfwb%2FE0%2FGg5 iejDFbw%3D

an opportunity for RISSA member to help amend their leadership's current nonsensical "official stance"

Does not being a member disquAlify my opinion as recreationl angler?
For those that Arent members of risaa, who in their right mind would now join given their support of granting 2 fish to charters?
Anglers HAVE been heard from, over and over and Over again...
I see this tactic all the time at work... Ask me my opinion, before they go ahead and do what they are going to do anyways... All so they can pretend that they involved me in the process.
Sorry... My faith has finally been lost... All of it. And im not buying the "hey guys! Lets hear from you" survey.
Do whats best for the fish , and you wont need a survey.
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it is a bit bassackwards...the leadership loves to boast the thousands of anglers that it represents but are clearly trying to work around the wishes of many of them in order to accommodate a few, who ironically, bit the hand that offered a compromise the other night...too funny....perhaps now they do what is right

reminder, as Dennis mentioned public comment is extended until 12:00 PM on February 26th. and they have been receiving A LOT of public comment I'd added an email address here it is


INSTRUCTIONS FOR WRITTEN COMMENTS:
Written comments concerning the proposed regulations may be submitted to

Peter Duhamel, Division of Fish and Wildlife Marine Fisheries office, 3 Fort Wetherill Road, Jamestown, RI 02835 peter.duhamel@dem.ri.gov

i'm glad for the risaa membership survey, better late than never. i'm sure they received a lot well well deserved flak from members.

You bet it happens.
Tip of the proverbial ice berg.
Small potato for instance and I turned a blind eye to what the locals were up to.
In the back beach glory days there were many restaurants from p town to waltham you could trade a few bass for dinner and drinks for two.
Was common practice.
Neptune's hideaway, (long gone) give the owner a bag of fluke fillets and she'd let you have the room for a few days.
Dunes edge (again long gone) at the time would take a bucket of snorkeled up sea clams and give you a campsite for the night.
Yankee bartering, people will always find a way.
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it is a bit bassackwards...the leadership loves to boast the thousands of anglers that it represents but are clearly trying to work around the wishes of many of them in order to accommodate a few, who ironically, bit the hand that offered a compromise the other night...too funny....perhaps now they do what is right

reminder, as Dennis mentioned public comment is extended until 12:00 PM on February 26th. and they have been receiving A LOT of public comment I'd added an email address here it is


INSTRUCTIONS FOR WRITTEN COMMENTS:
Written comments concerning the proposed regulations may be submitted to

Peter Duhamel, Division of Fish and Wildlife Marine Fisheries office, 3 Fort Wetherill Road, Jamestown, RI 02835 peter.duhamel@dem.ri.gov



Well Said Scott !