Thread split (more like derailment)

not crazy about most of the GOP but they sure look great next to the dem's line up of losers

Have you given Ben Carson a look? I don't think he has a prayer, but my God, the guy is impressive. He went to Harlem yesterday, and told people in Harlem (talk about going into the belly of the beast) and told them that it's not white republicans who are to blame for their problems, but rather the liberal policy "of not showing us respect, not treating us like equals, but patting us on the head and treating us like pets. That's what happens when they don't respect you, but take care of you, so that in turn, you will take care of them". Heroically, he likened liberal policies to Lyndon Johnson's famous statement "if we give these n's free stuff, they'll vote for us for 200 years". He also said that the only solution is to embrace the only values that matter, family and faith.

Brave, and very intellectually honest.

I always liked him. A bright guy who seems very honest and trustworthy.

I always liked him. A bright guy who seems very honest and trustworthy.

He gave a great answer on his abortion position very recently. He said that he worked most of hi scareer as a pediatric neurosurgeon, an dthat he couldn't count ho wmany times he and his team fought all night long, giving everything they had, to save critical babies, sometimes who were still in the womb. So he said that no one should be shocked that he's not in favor of killing babies for convenience.

I thought it was a fair, honest answer.

He just comes across as a decent, honest, thoughtful man.

I always liked him. A bright guy who seems very honest and trustworthy.

He gave a great answer on his abortion position very recently. He said that he worked most of hi scareer as a pediatric neurosurgeon, an dthat he couldn't count ho wmany times he and his team fought all night long, giving everything they had, to save critical babies, sometimes who were still in the womb. So he said that no one should be shocked that he's not in favor of killing babies for convenience.

I thought it was a fair, honest answer.

He just comes across as a decent, honest, thoughtful man.

So neither of you have any problems with his research on tissue from aborted fetus'?

So neither of you have any problems with his research on tissue from aborted fetus'?

A tough but fair question.

I don't think most people have a problem with performing medical research on corpses, even babies. I have no quarel with that. But I would assume that those folks died of natural causes or an accident. I also assume, as the law requires, that fetal corpses used for research, were not manipulated while still alive, for the specific reason of maximizing harvestable tissue. Finally, what sickened a lot of folks about PP, was the absolute callousness with which they discussed such things, but in my opinion, you need to have something deeply wrong with you to do that for a living, so maybe it's not that surprising.

So neither of you have any problems with his research on tissue from aborted fetus'?

If it matters, Carson is denying that he ever performed research on fetal tissue. His surgeries. done in the effort to save lives, were sometimes used as a source for scientific research. He has no ethical issue with that research, but claims he has never been involved.

So neither of you have any problems with his research on tissue from aborted fetus'?

Today was the first I heard of that.
He is being interviewed tonight so I will wait to see what he has to say
before I pass judgment.

Today was the first I heard of that.
He is being interviewed tonight so I will wait to see what he has to say
before I pass judgment.

Saw an interview, he adamantly denied ever doing research, though he stated he has no ethical quarrels with research of fetal tissue, as long as it is acquired in an ethical way. He had some real words about Planned Parenthood and their founder, Margaret Sanger, an unapologetic, loathsome racist.

If it matters, Carson is denying that he ever performed research on fetal tissue. His surgeries. done in the effort to save lives, were sometimes used as a source for scientific research. He has no ethical issue with that research, but claims he has never been involved.

No he isn't. He simply detached his research from how the tissue was obtained.

He's a massive hypocrite.
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He simply detached his research from how the tissue was obtained.

He's a massive hypocrite.
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That was my thought. Just say that you've changed your mind in the 20 years since you did it.
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.

He's a massive hypocrite.

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PaulS That was my thought.




great example...this could easily sink his chances and the details aren't all that clear as it's only been a few days, but Hillary and others can lie, cheat, steal and be a "massive hypocrite" for decades and still get the nomination....funny what becomes "qualities and assets" when you sit on the other side of the aisle

No he isn't. He simply detached his research from how the tissue was obtained.

He's a massive hypocrite.
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In the interview I saw, I think he said that while his surgeries sometimes provided fetal tissue for research, he didn't do any research on tissue.

Is there proof he lied? I would genuinely like to know.

Boy, are you selective in your willingness to hold politicians to any standard of ethics...

WHat was Hilary when she claimed she came under sniper fire, misunderstood? Quoted out of context? Or did she never make such a claim, she's just the victim of another vast right wing conspiracy?

In the interview I saw, I think he said that while his surgeries sometimes provided fetal tissue for research, he didn't do any research on tissue.

Is there proof he lied? I would genuinely like to know.

I didn't say he lied, I said he was a hypocrite.

I didn't say he lied, I said he was a hypocrite.

you routinely support and defend the biggest hypocrite on the planet...ole' "shared sacrafice"...so i guess you're saying Carson has at least one quality that you like in a president :claps: if we can catch him in some lies....that would be two

I didn't say he lied, I said he was a hypocrite.

I'm wondering, in all honesty, where is the hypocrisy?

Are you saying it's hypocritical for a doctor to perform research on fetal tissue, yet be critical of what Planned Parenthood did? I don't think that's hypocritical at all, because what horrified folks about PP was how that tissue is harvested, and the possibility (far from a certainty) that laws were broken if abortion procedures were altered or profits were made.

I keep forgetting, do you concede that Hilary lied about the sniper thing?

you routinely support and defend the biggest hypocrite on the planet...ole' "shared sacrafice"...so i guess you're saying Carson has at least one quality that you like in a president :claps: if we can catch him in some lies....that would be two

Now that's funny right there...

I didn't say he lied, I said he was a hypocrite.

Show me one polotician that is not a hypocrite.
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Saw an interview, he adamantly denied ever doing research, though he stated he has no ethical quarrels with research of fetal tissue, as long as it is acquired in an ethical way. He had some real words about Planned Parenthood and their founder, Margaret Sanger, an unapologetic, loathsome racist.

Yes, and in addition to the one I saw, he said he did not do any research but was mentioned in the paper because he sent tissue from the process of neurosurgery at John Hopkins, therefore being mentioned in the paper.

The man is a neurosurgeon not an OB/Gyn who would be the ones doing the majority of abortions.

In 1992 Ben Carson did research with fetal tissue obtained from abortion.

In 1992 Ben Carson did research with fetal tissue obtained from abortion.

c'mon Spence...with all of your context, massaging of truth, diversion and cheerleading for scallywags....you can do much better than a simple minded low information voter statement like that.....

In 1992 Ben Carson did research with fetal tissue obtained from abortion.

For whatever it's worth, I think he is saying that is not true. Unless his denial referred to sometihng else.

He also said in the interview this week, that he had no ethical quarrel with doing research on fetal tissue. I don't think that's necessarily inconsistent, with being appalled at the PP videos. There are legal/ethical ways to obtain tissue, and unethical/illegal ways.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/13/politics/ben-carson-aborted-fetuses-research/index.html
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He also said in the interview this week, that he had no ethical quarrel with doing research on fetal tissue. I don't think that's necessarily inconsistent, with being appalled at the PP videos. There are legal/ethical ways to obtain tissue, and unethical/illegal ways.
Jim, where does fetal tissue come from?

Jim, where does fetal tissue come from?

It doesn't all come from planned parenthood. We had a mid-term miscarriage a few years ago, it was of the type which, sorry for being blunt, required the removal of the tissue from my wife. We gave consent for the tissue to be used for research, if it was found that there was any value to it. I see notihng unethical with that tissue being used, but I hate what Planned Parenthood was discussing on the videos. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite.

I'm an organ donor. That doesn't mean I want someone to pull the plug on me early, or to alter my treatment at all, just so they can get a more bountiful harvest. "Hey Jim, we're suffering a shortage of brains for research, so we're going to hang you upside down until you die, to get more blood into your brain, that will be better for research."

Some people prefer to let nature take its course.

And Planned Parenthood isn't the only abortion provider.

You keep insisting they're trying to push abortions to get more tissue, the law prohibits that. So far we've not sees anything that indicates a violation of the law.

And Planned Parenthood isn't the only abortion provider.

You keep insisting they're trying to push abortions to get more tissue, the law prohibits that. So far we've not sees anything that indicates a violation of the law.

I never said they push abortions to get more tissue. Can you point to where I said that?

What I said, and it's supported by the videotapes, is that they alter abortion procedures for the specific intent of maximizing the harvest. That is illegal under federal law, and I don't see how anyone could watch those tapes, and not conclude that the PP staff is confessing to that crime. Maybe they didn't actually do it, maybe they were being dishonest on the video. But the videos clearly show that they claimed that they re-position the fetus before it is killed, to maximize the useful tissue/organs. That is a violation of federal law.

I don't think I'm saying it clearly. But in at least one video, the PP lady was very specific about how they position the baby a specific was before it is killed. That's against the law.

I don't think I'm saying it clearly. But in at least one video, the PP lady was very specific about how they position the baby a specific was before it is killed. That's against the law.
You're not listening.

You're not listening.

I'm trying.

Forget about doingabortions for harvest, forget about doing it for profit. Focus on one thing - the fact that federal law prohibits any abortion from being altered for the purposes of harvesting tissue. You cannot change th way you do an abortion, simply because you want more harvestable tissue afterward.

Said one PP staffer, Melissa Farrell, director of research, said this on tape..."so IF WE ALTER OUR PROCESS, and we are able to obtain intact fetal cadavers, then we can make it part of the budget"

That indicates to me, that PP may be violating the law, which says one cannot alter the procedure for that reason.

Please tell me what I am not hearing...

If say Jim is winning this argument. However the role of planned parenthood and its services outweigh the desire to cut funding.

I'd be much more in favor of forced sterilization of males and females that have not moved off of welfare for more than 5 years.
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I'm trying.

Forget about doingabortions for harvest, forget about doing it for profit. Focus on one thing - the fact that federal law prohibits any abortion from being altered for the purposes of harvesting tissue. You cannot change th way you do an abortion, simply because you want more harvestable tissue afterward.

Said one PP staffer, Melissa Farrell, director of research, said this on tape..."so IF WE ALTER OUR PROCESS, and we are able to obtain intact fetal cadavers, then we can make it part of the budget"

That indicates to me, that PP may be violating the law, which says one cannot alter the procedure for that reason.

Please tell me what I am not hearing...
There are multiple methods of abortion that are all acceptable under what's considered a standard process. If the doctor deems the method chosen doesn't negatively impact the woman or alter the timing then this wouldn't be a violation of the law.

Of course, the video edits all this out.

Also remember the remark about line items was prompted by the imposters trying to get a higher selling price for impact. Again in the edited video they don't show the PP representative stating this would have to be broken out in the budget so it didn't appear as though they were selling the fetal tissue at a higher price.

The weekend is here - this is closed until Monday at 8:00.

If say Jim is winning this argument. However the role of planned parenthood and its services outweigh the desire to cut funding.

For Jim to win any argument he'd have to take an objective look.

For Jim to win any argument he'd have to take an objective look.

Into the GOP talking points handbook ?
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If say Jim is winning this argument. However the role of planned parenthood and its services outweigh the desire to cut funding.

I'd be much more in favor of forced sterilization of males and females that have not moved off of welfare for more than 5 years.
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"I'd be much more in favor of forced sterilization of males and females that have not moved off of welfare for more than 5 years"

Amen, brother.

As for PP, there are lots of female health organizations that aren't engaged in this sick activity. Let's cut funding for PP, and give that money to those other groups.

PP was also founded by Margaret Sanger, an extreme racist even by Klan standards, she really wanted to eradicate blacks. PP is doing a great job toward that goal.

Abortion has its place. A woman is raped and gets pregnant... I'm pretty sure I'd give that one the green light. A woman in her 40's has a brain dead fetus... And is going to lead a life as a vegetable. I say go for it.

These are horrible choices, but these are choices that a woman should be allowed to make. One of the best sayings I have heard about abortion is if you are against them, then don't have one.
Our constitutional rights guarantee us personal liberties and freedoms that allow this practice to happen and who cares what the original founder's motives were? If PP is defended and closes, I guarantee you that we will see back ally coat hanger abortions skyrocket. It's a sad truth.
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The weekend is here - this is closed until Monday at 8:00.

I love Paul, nicely done...everybody go fishing :lm:

😊
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Abortion has its place. A woman is raped and gets pregnant... I'm pretty sure I'd give that one the green light. A woman in her 40's has a brain dead fetus... And is going to lead a life as a vegetable. I say go for it.

These are horrible choices, but these are choices that a woman should be allowed to make. One of the best sayings I have heard about abortion is if you are against them, then don't have one.
Our constitutional rights guarantee us personal liberties and freedoms that allow this practice to happen and who cares what the original founder's motives were? If PP is defended and closes, I guarantee you that we will see back ally coat hanger abortions skyrocket. It's a sad truth.
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Rape is a very low % of abortions in this country. The vast majority in this country, are done for sheer convenience, to healthy women who have had consensual sex. It's repugnant. Rape is a different moral dilemma, as are situations when the moms life is in danger, which thankfully almost never happens.

Abortion has its place. A woman is raped and gets pregnant... I'm pretty sure I'd give that one the green light. A woman in her 40's has a brain dead fetus... And is going to lead a life as a vegetable. I say go for it.

These are horrible choices, but these are choices that a woman should be allowed to make. One of the best sayings I have heard about abortion is if you are against them, then don't have one.
Our constitutional rights guarantee us personal liberties and freedoms that allow this practice to happen and who cares what the original founder's motives were? If PP is defended and closes, I guarantee you that we will see back ally coat hanger abortions skyrocket. It's a sad truth.
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"One of the best sayings I have heard about abortion is if you are against them, then don't have one."

I hear that a lot. I think it's idiotic. How about if I say "if you're against arson, then don't light fires, but don't tell me I can't burn down a building". That's what laws are foe. Most people would never do terrible things, but we still need laws.

"Our constitutional rights guarantee us personal liberties "

True. You show me where the Constitution mentions the word "abortion", and I will agree that it's a constitutional right. What the constitution does guarantee is the right to free exercise of religion. Tell that to the Christian bakers getting persecuted by our POTUS Weird Harold.

"If PP is defended and closes, I guarantee you that we will see back ally coat hanger abortions skyrocket. It's a sad truth" We don't make evil things legal just to save those who participate. People get killed robbing banks, that's a sad truth. Is that an argument to legalize bank robbery?

"is going to lead a life as a vegetable. I say go for it. "

What if someday, someone decides that you have no value?

Into the GOP talking points handbook ?
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I've stated major issues where I side with liberals - death penalty, gay marriage. I can think for myself just fine.

When was the last time Spence disagreed with the Dems on a major policy issue. Have fun with that one, Spence?

Yo, Spence! Did Hilary lie about getting shot at? Can you concede that? Come on, show us all how objective and independent you are. Now go hide under your bed until you think of how to dodge.

When Clinton lied, no one died ;)
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What does it matter?
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What does it matter?
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It doesn't. We all line to have meaningless debates. Seriously. :hihi:
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Once again,this thread is exhibit A that Jim is American Taliban or the latest incarnation thereof.
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Once again,this thread is exhibit A that Jim is American Taliban or the latest incarnation thereof.
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Based on what, exactly? Because I'm anti-abortion?

The Taliban think it's OK to slaughter innocent people for their own benefit.

Which side in the abortion debate most resembles the Taliban? Well, the vast majority of abortions are selected by healthy women who freely chose to have consensual sex. They choose to slaughter their unborn (in all of nature, you cannot find a more perfect example of innocence than an unborn child) for their own convenience. I am opposed to that slaughter.

I can therefore make a very compelling case, that rabidly pro-abortion folks, are the ones behaving barbaric like the Taliban.

Have fun figuring out a way to make that wrong.

When Clinton lied, no one died ;)
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No?

I assume you are referring to Bush, who was wrong, but didn't lie. But never mind about that. If Bush lied, so did Hilary, because she was positive that Saddam had WMDs, and used that as justification for her vote to invade Iraq. She voted to invade because of the threat of WMDs in Iraq. So if Bush lied, and if you say his lies caused deaths, how can you possibly not make the same charge against then-Senator Hilary Clinton?

I did agree with what you said about abortions following rape, that is a lot different than choosing an abortion because one doesn't want to deal with the significant, yet natural and usually safe, ramifications of being pregnant. It's abortions that are done purely for convenience, that most on my side are opposed to.

Planned Parenthood was founded by a fascist racist named Margaret Sanger, who was committed to the extermination of blacks. That is irrefutable fact. Some of her lovely quotes can be seen here.

http://www.dianedew.com/sanger.htm

Hilary Clinton has said she admires Margaret Sanger. Nice.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/04/sec_clinton_stands_by_her_prai.asp

A quote from Hilary upon receiving the Margaret Sanger award..."I admire Margaret Sanger enormously, her courage, her tenacity, her vision "

You cannot make that up. And Clinton, if nominated, will receive 90% of the black vote.

From the article, Sanger (again, who Hilary admires enormously) aid this about blacks..."...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born." Yes, very admirable, isn't it?

When Clinton lied, no one died ;)
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So it's OK to lie as long as no one get's killed now??
Is that what we have come to as a country?
Lying is altering truth and reality and therefore nothing real gets done.
Karma.

Planned Parenthood was founded by a fascist racist named Margaret Sanger, who was committed to the extermination of blacks. That is irrefutable fact. Some of her lovely quotes can be seen here.

http://www.dianedew.com/sanger.htm

Hilary Clinton has said she admires Margaret Sanger. Nice.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/04/sec_clinton_stands_by_her_prai.asp

A quote from Hilary upon receiving the Margaret Sanger award..."I admire Margaret Sanger enormously, her courage, her tenacity, her vision "

You cannot make that up. And Clinton, if nominated, will receive 90% of the black vote.

From the article, Sanger (again, who Hilary admires enormously) aid this about blacks..."...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born." Yes, very admirable, isn't it?
Jim, if you'd do just a teeny bit of checking your sources you'd quickly realize just how bad they are.

Jim, if you'd do just a teeny bit of checking your sources you'd quickly realize just how bad they are.

How about once, instead of lobbing a vague insult and scuttling off, you tell me where I'm wrong. I'll be blunt to make it clear for you. Do you deny Margaret Sanger was a loathsome racist who hated blacks? Do you have any evidence to suggest that she did not say the things that are attributed to her in the link I provided? I have never, not once, herd anyone deny she was a racist. My hunch is that because Hilary said she admired her, you need to make sure there's nothing improper, even if it means denying irrefutable fact.

How come you won't answer my question about Hilary lying about the sniper attack?

How about once, instead of lobbing a vague insult and scuttling off, you tell me where I'm wrong. I'll be blunt to make it clear for you. Do you deny Margaret Sanger was a loathsome racist who hated blacks? Do you have any evidence to suggest that she did not say the things that are attributed to her in the link I provided? I have never, not once, herd anyone deny she was a racist. My hunch is that because Hilary said she admired her, you need to make sure there's nothing improper, even if it means denying irrefutable fact.
If you'd cozy up to the google you'd quickly see most of those quotes aren't hers or are taken out of context. She did have an odd relationship with the eugenics crowd at one time, but that doesn't discount the groundbreaking work she did for women.

How come you won't answer my question about Hilary lying about the sniper attack?
:horse:

If you'd cozy up to the google you'd quickly see most of those quotes aren't hers or are taken out of context. She did have an odd relationship with the eugenics crowd at one time, but that doesn't discount the groundbreaking work she did for women.


:horse:

"most of those quotes aren't hers or are taken out of context"

Out of curiosity, in what context are any of those quotes not racist?

"that doesn't discount the groundbreaking work she did for women."

Hitler really did a lot to improve the economy in Germany. We judge someone based on everything they do, not just the good stuff.

Your refusal to concede Hilary lied, tells us all we need to know, Spence. Your conscious mind will not allow you to criticize her, you just can't.

Consider that every political front runner trying to get elected lies. Campaign promises that are never met will equate to a lie.
Hillary lied, but I'm sure you can track every candidate down to a few lies.

Lies are really convenient to use agianst someone you don't like, but you should be aware of those who you do like and their lies as well
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Jim is a weird dude whose extremism has probably put him on more than one watch list. He is passionate, but yet screams for pity. My guess is he was picked on in school. Good Luck Jim, I hope to hug you some day if Detbutch lets me. I feel you could really need it.
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Consider that every political front runner trying to get elected lies. Campaign promises that are never met will equate to a lie.
Hillary lied, but I'm sure you can track every candidate down to a few lies.

Lies are really convenient to use agianst someone you don't like, but you should be aware of those who you do like and their lies as well
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Good point, lies are wrong on both sides.

Jim is a weird dude whose extremism has probably put him on more than one watch list. He is passionate, but yet screams for pity. My guess is he was picked on in school. I hope to hug you some day if Detbutch lets me. I feel you could really need it.
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"Jim is a weird dude "

I'm a Catholic and a marine and an actuary, who asked you to support your accusation that I am an American Taliban. Instead of admitting the absurdity of your accusation, you say I'm weird that I didn't accept your slander.

"extremism"

I love everyone and think life is too sacred to be snuffed out because it's convenient. If that's extremist to you, then maybe one of us is weird.

"screams for pity"

No, clobbering you in a discussion isn't the same as a cry for help.

"guess is he was picked on in school"

Wrong as usual. There was one bully in 8th grade though...wonder what happened to him.

I've had nothing but good luck. I think everyone deserves to be as lucky as I have been.

Good point, lies are wrong on both sides.

Yes, it is a good point. But I couldn't vote for someone who lied to make themselves look to improve their image, as Hillary did, anymore then I could vote for someone who lied about serving the military in fire fights when they were sitting at a desk some place safe.

Jim, you are a liar. This post proves it. Especially the weird part. I really want to stick my tongue down your throat and hug you til you pee yourself.
Seriously Jim, you strike me as a John Earl type. He was another friendly Catholic priest with good intentions like yours and the rest of your Army of God brethren. They also love everyone. Except those who disagree with them. I am sure he is normal in your world. Keep clobbering slugger,especially 8th graders.
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I think of liars as those who routinely, purposefully and knowingly, confidently misrepresent the truth....they are emboldened by the fact that they are either unchallenged or supported and excused by minions who prefer their comfortable lies over the uncomfortable truth and they have the uncanny ability to dismiss anything that disagrees with their worldview....this would include much of the political class that Eben mentioned as we seem to have allowed this to be come acceptable behaviour from those that we elect as well as many in the media and elsewhere.

This argument/thread has jumped off the tracks. All it has proven is what we already knew. Spence is an apologist, Eben is conflicted and Jim is trying to convert people.

Get this in your heads Hilary will not be prosecuted she will probably be the Dem Nominee for president. She is divisive and she has won the money vote thus far. get used to it. The presidential election is akin to the WWE pure entertainment.
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Bernie sanders will be the DEM nominee
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Bernie sanders will be the DEM nominee
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Never going to happen the DNC recognizes more than we do that while people in our area of the country and the left coast can look past the "socialist" label most of the states that don't touch salt water will not be able to see past that. If he runs independent he will only pull votes from the nominated candidate that will be Clinton. She is a criminal but they all are
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We shall see...
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http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7937906
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Keep this thread for your derailment and roll back the personal attacks

We shall see...
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I am fascinated to see how that's going to play out. Hilary is still polling ahead of Bernie, I believe, in most places (not New Hampshire, but that's his backyard).

If it looks like Bernie is a real threat, then someone else will run - Biden, Gore, or Kerry. I don't think the DNC can let it be Bernie Sanders, that might be the best thing that could happen to the GOP.

Bernie sanders will be the DEM nominee
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I'll vote for Bernie if he promises to make all colleges and universities free, I have three that need to go soon and I want to raise taxes on Spence to pay for it....that wasn't a personal attack was it?

I don't think it's that important that Bernie actually gets the nomination. What the Dems need now are rational voices that set the tone for the election...even with high negatives Hillary will still have a good shot at winning if the debate is about issues and not her.

I don't think it's that important that Bernie actually gets the nomination. What the Dems need now are rational voices that set the tone for the election...even with high negatives Hillary will still have a good shot at winning if the debate is about issues and not her.

It will always be about Hillary, as she has character faults and
can't be trusted. One current pole states 57% of those polled
don't trust her; She is just a tiring old Politician.
The country is looking for a new direction.

It will always be about Hillary, as she has character faults and
can't be trusted. One current pole states 57% of those polled
don't trust her; She is just a tiring old Politician.
The country is looking for a new direction.
Hey you can always get behind the new guy who's shining moment was reciting green eggs and ham...I mean that is some brilliant thinking!
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I don't think it's that important that Bernie actually gets the nomination. What the Dems need now are rational voices that set the tone for the election...even with high negatives anyone would still have a good shot at winning if the debate is about issues and not him, her.

fixed it for "context"....i hope we have not sunk this low as a country

we don't elect issues, we elect people, electing a dirtbag and/or liar because they tell you that they support your issue puts a dirtbag and/or liar in a place of power to be a dirtbag and liar on a greater scale....that is stupid....you have to be deaf, dumb and blind to think that Hillary has any business being anywhere near the Whitehouse at this point

Totally agreed
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....you have to be deaf, dumb and blind to think that Hillary has any business being anywhere near the Whitehouse at this point
Funny, she's beating nearly every GOP contender in the Iowa polls which isn't exactly liberal territory.

I guess those Iowans must be pretty deaf, dumb and blind.

Funny, she's beating nearly every GOP contender in the Iowa polls which isn't exactly liberal territory.

I guess those Iowans must be pretty deaf, dumb and blind.

Just comes to show what a train wreck the GOP has become.
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Just comes to show what a train wreck the GOP has become.
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you've got more than a dozen choices and some "impressive resumes" in the field...still split many ways whereas the dems have essentially 2 and one should be in jail...

that she still polls well anywhere and that some revel in the fact that she does, just comes to show what a remarkably sad state our nation is in....

That is true as well.
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If you'd cozy up to the google you'd quickly see most of those quotes aren't hers or are taken out of context. She did have an odd relationship with the eugenics crowd at one time, but that doesn't discount the groundbreaking work she did for women.


:horse:

if you cozy up to google you'll find she was a detestable human being...a Progressive and eugenist


these quotes are hers...hard to take them out of context...and she was prolific with her opinions so it's not hard to pin her down

In her 1922 book The Pivot of Civilization, Sanger wrote: The lack of balance between the birth-rate of the “unfit” and the “fit” [is] admittedly the greatest present menace to the civilization. . . . The example of the inferior classes, the fertility of the feeble-minded, the mentally defective, the poverty-stricken, should not be held up for emulation to the mentally and physically fit, and therefore less fertile, parents of the educated and well-to-do classes. On the contrary, the most urgent problem to-day is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.

Sanger again: Modern studies indicate that insanity, epilepsy, criminality, prostitution, pauperism, and mental defect, are all organically bound up together and that the least intelligent and the thoroughly degenerate classes in every community are the most prolific. Feeble-mindedness in one generation becomes pauperism or insanity in the next. There is every indication that feeble-mindedness in its protean forms is on the increase, that it has leaped the barriers, and that there is truly, as some of the scientific eugenists [sic] have pointed out, a feeble-minded peril to future generations – unless the feeble-minded are prevented from reproducing their kind. To meet this emergency is the immediate and peremptory duty of every State and of all communities.

Sounds on point to me. I certainly would want a feeble minded yet sexually active person to have access to free birth control. Wouldn't you scott ?
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maybe a little more...these folks Eben, found any physical or mental "handicap" and various traits to be a "defect", being in poverty is mentioned... they were interested in breeding out of society and eliminating what they considered lesser qualities as they determined them to be ..."dysgenic" breeding versus selective....very high-minded academic elitist stuff


"As an advocate of Birth Control, I wish to take advantage of the present opportunity to point out that the unbalance between the birth rate of the "unfit" and the "fit", admittedly the greatest present menace to civilization, can never be rectified by the inauguration of a cradle competition between these two classes. In this matter, the example of the inferior classes, the fertility of the feeble-minded, the mentally defective, the poverty-stricken classes, should not be held up for emulation to the mentally and physically fit though less fertile parents of the educated and well-to-do classes. On the contrary, the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.

Birth Control is not advanced as a panacea by which past and present evils of dysgenic breeding can be magically eliminated. Possibly drastic and Spartan methods may be forced upon society if it continues complacently to encourage the chance and chaotic breeding that has resulted from our stupidly cruel sentimentalism.

But to prevent the repetition, to effect the salvation of the generations of the future–nay of the generations of today–our greatest need is first of all the ability to face the situation without flinching, and to cooperate in the formation of a code of sexual ethics based upon a thorough biological and psychological understanding of human nature; and then to answer the questions and the needs of the people with all the intelligence and honesty at our command. If we can summon the bravery to do this, we shall best be serving the true interests of Eugenics, because our work will then have a practical and pragmatic value."

Hey you can always get behind the new guy who's shining moment was reciting green eggs and ham...I mean that is some brilliant thinking!
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Wasn't fooled by the "new guy" Obama or his Sheeple from day one and have a long way to go before a decision in 2016.

I don't know all the answers, still learning, but know trust worthiness will be high on the list of my choice.

Sounds on point to me. I certainly would want a feeble minded yet sexually active person to have access to free birth control. Wouldn't you scott ?
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I'm fascinated by the fact that I read that and find it incredibly offensive and you find it on point...

a little more Sanger

“While I personally believe in the sterilization of the feeble-minded, the insane and syphilitic, I have not been able to discover that these measures are more than superficial deterrents when applied to the constantly growing stream of the unfit. They are excellent means of meeting a certain phase of the situation, but I believe in regard to these, as in regard to other eugenic means, that they do not go to the bottom of the matter.” (“Birth Control and Racial Betterment,” Feb. 1919, The Birth Control Review).

“Eugenics without birth control seems to us a house builded upon the sands. It is at the mercy of the rising stream of the unfit” (“Birth Control and Racial Betterment,” Feb. 1919, The Birth Control Review).

“Stop our national habit of human waste.” (“Woman and the New Race,” 1920, Chapter 6).

“By all means, there should be no children when either mother or father suffers from such diseases as tuberculosis, gonorrhea, syphilis, cancer, epilepsy, insanity, drunkenness and mental disorders. In the case of the mother, heart disease, kidney trouble and pelvic deformities are also a serious bar to childbearing No more children should be born when the parents, though healthy themselves, find that their children are physically or mentally defective.” (“Woman and the New Race,” 1920, Chapter 7).

“The main objects of the Population Congress would be to apply a stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is tainted, or whose inheritance is such that objectionable traits may be transmitted to offspring[;] to give certain dysgenic groups in our population their choice of segregation or sterilization.” (“A Plan for Peace,” 1932).

If Hillary so admires Sanger, it is logical that she would be against the immigration of all those "inferior" folks entering across our southern border. And since anti-social, criminal behavior is a kind of mental disorder, She would, at least, be against giving citizenship to those who illegally cross that border, and even against letting them stay in any case. Unless, of course, they chose to be sterilized, or to be segregated, and have no right to vote or influence society in any way.

At least she has the contraception thing down. Except she wants to provide it for all women, even the "fit" ones. She's not a hypocrite there. She did her part. She only had one child. But that is not a model for even maintaining current population, much less for expanding it and the economy as well. Well, that fits in well with the notion that humans are a sort of cancer on the environment. Even the "fit" ones . . . I guess.

So, what's Bernie's view on the illegal immigrants here . . . or those to come?

Funny, she's beating nearly every GOP contender in the Iowa polls which isn't exactly liberal territory.

I guess those Iowans must be pretty deaf, dumb and blind.

Can you cite that poll you are referring to? This poll has her trailing Bush, Walker, and Rubio in Iowa, Colorado, and VA. Obama won all 3 of those states twice. So I don't think they are deep red territory, are they?

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/poll-hillary-clinton-gop-candidates-colorado-virginia-iowa-120450.html

Just comes to show what a train wreck the GOP has become.
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Nebe, have you forgotten what happened 9 months ago? November 2014 ring a bell? Was that day a "train wreck" for the GOP? Who controls most of the state legislatures and governorships? Who controls both houses of Congress? When did the GOP become this train wreck? Like them or not, they clobbered the Dems last November.

Scott Walker, Marco Rubio, Ben Carson, are train wrecks? I don't see it. According to the Quinnipiac University poll, neither do the people of Iowa.

As fr Margaret Sanger, a large group of black ministers submitted a petition to have her likeness removed from the Smithsonian, due to her disgusting views. Spence immediately comes to her defense.

Some conservatives have exaggerated some of her quotes for political capital. But when you boil it down to her comments that cannot be separated from her, it's vile.

As fr Margaret Sanger, a large group of black ministers submitted a petition to have her likeness removed from the Smithsonian, due to her disgusting views. Spence immediately comes to her defense.

Some conservatives have exaggerated some of her quotes for political capital. But when you boil it down to her comments that cannot be separated from her, it's vile.

her words don't really need any exaggerating

“I admire Margaret Sanger enormously,” Secretary Clinton had said in March, “her courage, her tenacity, her vision . . . And when I think about what she did all those years ago in Brooklyn, taking on archetypes, taking on attitudes and accusations flowing from all directions, I am really in awe of her.”

So, what's Bernie's view on the illegal immigrants here . . . or those to come?



it's always hard to tell isn't it? and when they do tell, it's often hard to judge what is true or not....seems the modern progressives learned a lesson from the early progressives who, as shown were pretty blunt with their views, modern progressives have learned the important skills of deception and phony compassion which attempt to disguise pretty cold and callous views and ulterior motives....we get to see a peak occasionally and it's not pretty... we know that Bernie, while an "independent socialist" did co-found the congressional progressive caucus which lists as one of it's "non-profit organization most closely associated" as The National Council of La Raza (NCLR) "It advocates in favor of progressive immigration reform policies"

Sanders is getting criticism for some "straddling" but I did read this clarification of his stance after comments to Ezra Klein

"Sanders is strongly in favor of legalization and citizenship for the current unauthorized immigrant population, which will raise wages and lift labor standards for all workers, and he’s against expanding U.S. temporary foreign worker programs, which allow employers to exploit and underpay so-called guestworkers. Limiting guestworker programs will reduce wage suppression and improve labor standards for U.S. and migrant workers alike.


When it comes to the number one priority for immigration reform—legalizing the unauthorized immigrant population in the United States—Sanders has said time and time again that they should be legalized immediately and put on a path to citizenship, and he’s highlighted their contributions to the American economy. Sanders could not be any clearer about this. He voted for the 2013 comprehensive reform bill that would have legalized most of the unauthorized population, despite his misgivings about the large expansion of high- and low-skilled guestworker programs in the bill, which shows the importance he ascribes to legalization. Sanders understands that having eight million people working in the U.S. labor market without labor and employment rights puts downward pressure on the wages and working conditions of all workers. He has not failed to point this out. There’s no question that Sanders’ desire for legalization of the unauthorized population is consistent with his broader agenda to see wages rise for workers in the United States.


I'm actually ok with this as long as we get to send 1 progressive off to the socialist paradise of their choice for every two undocumented Americans that we make whole and legal