View Full Version : The million crybaby march is underway...


Jim in CT
11-12-2015, 05:15 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/students-across-u-march-over-debt-free-public-110404606.html

College students: I want everyone at the school to make $15 an hour. And I don't want to have to pay a cent for my college education. And I want all existing student loan debt to be forgiven as of now.

Yikes...

Sounds like they'll all be voting for Bernie.

Nebe
11-12-2015, 05:58 PM
I've been listening to a lot of Merel Haggard lately. He's got some good tunes about being an independent man and about working hard to make a living.
Why can't we find some sort of middle ground ? Yes the cost of living has gone up a lot. Yes wages should rise with cost of living.
Student loan debt should not be forgiven but info think interest rates should be looked at.
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Jim in CT
11-12-2015, 06:20 PM
I've been listening to a lot of Merel Haggard lately. He's got some good tunes about being an independent man and about working hard to make a living.
Why can't we find some sort of middle ground ? Yes the cost of living has gone up a lot. Yes wages should rise with cost of living.
Student loan debt should not be forgiven but info think interest rates should be looked at.
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Agreed.

How about making the professors work a 40 hour week? I am friends with someone who teaches Sociology at Wesleyan University in CT (we disagree on EVERYTHING). He told me that if he adds up the time he spends preparing lectures, time in class, office hours, and time grading papers, he said it adds up to about 900 hours a year. That's insane.

Also, I was an engineering major, then a math major. Probably a third of the classes I took were the bullsh*t classes like writing, history, sociology, etc. Liberal arts folks will say you "need" those classes to be a better engineer. I reject that, I don't concede I was smarter after taking those classes. If we let kids (at least those with technical majors) take more classes relevent to their major, and fewer liberal arts requirements, kids could graduate in 3 years instead of 4. The liberal arts folks, 99% of whom are liberals, go berserk every time I mention this, because they want guaranteed job security, even though they aren't adding value (IMHO).

There are many things we could do to make it cheaper. Most of those ideas will be rejected by the liberals in academia, because many of the proposals will hit them in the wallet.

spence
11-12-2015, 06:27 PM
Agreed.

How about making the professors work a 40 hour week? I am friends with someone who teaches Sociology at Wesleyan University in CT (we disagree on EVERYTHING). He told me that if he adds up the time he spends preparing lectures, time in class, office hours, and time grading papers, he said it adds up to about 900 hours a year. That's insane.

Also, I was an engineering major, then a math major. Probably a third of the classes I took were the bullsh*t classes like writing, history, sociology, etc. Liberal arts folks will say you "need" those classes to be a better engineer. I reject that, I don't concede I was smarter after taking those classes. If we let kids (at least those with technical majors) take more classes relevent to their major, and fewer liberal arts requirements, kids could graduate in 3 years instead of 4. The liberal arts folks, 99% of whom are liberals, go berserk every time I mention this, because they want guaranteed job security, even though they aren't adding value (IMHO).

There are many things we could do to make it cheaper. Most of those ideas will be rejected by the liberals in academia, because many of the proposals will hit them in the wallet.

I think I now understand you.

Nebe
11-12-2015, 06:28 PM
yoh know. All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person capable of knowing lots of things about all sorts of stuff !
I bet all those Bernie Sanders voters took em ;)
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buckman
11-12-2015, 06:35 PM
yoh know. All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person capable of knowing lots of things about all sorts of stuff !
I bet all those Bernie Sanders voters took em ;)
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I bet you are right .
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spence
11-12-2015, 06:38 PM
yoh know. All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person capable of knowing lots of things about all sorts of stuff !
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Wait, a "liberal arts" education isn't designed to turn you into a radical left wing liberal?

This is news.

Jim in CT
11-12-2015, 06:43 PM
yoh know. All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person capable of knowing lots of things about all sorts of stuff !
I bet all those Bernie Sanders voters took em ;)
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"All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person "

That's what the liberal arts professors want you to think. I reject that. I went to an awesome Catholic high school, I knew how to write, and think logically, long before I got to college. Maybe at the most prestigious schools do you get a lot out of those classes. At UCONN, I regurgitated their lectures back to them to get good grades. 99% of what I learned in those classes, was of no value whatsoever. I also took classes at Southern CT State University (not a great school) and Tufts in Mass (a terrific school). The liberal arts classes did absolutely nothing except eat up valuable time and tuition money.

If we want to cut costs significantly, these are the things we need to consider.

Jim in CT
11-12-2015, 06:45 PM
I think I now understand you.

That makes one of us, because I don't understand why you csan't answer a simple question. I guess all that liberal arts stuff didn't teach you how to debate openly.

Jim in CT
11-12-2015, 06:48 PM
Wait, a "liberal arts" education isn't designed to turn you into a radical left wing liberal?

This is news.

In reality, that's precisely what's it's designed to do. Which you would concede, if you could honestly opine on the insanity taking place at colleges right now. I'm not sure that most of what goes on at college isn't intellectually subtractive.

Sea Dangles
11-12-2015, 08:25 PM
My guess is that there will not be a lot of free thinking going on in Jims house. I can picture it now as he tells his children and wife to try and make that wrong.
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RIROCKHOUND
11-12-2015, 08:37 PM
"All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person "

That's what the liberal arts professors want you to think. I reject that. I went to an awesome Catholic high school, I knew how to write, and think logically, long before I got to college. Maybe at the most prestigious schools do you get a lot out of those classes. At UCONN, I regurgitated their lectures back to them to get good grades. 99% of what I learned in those classes, was of no value whatsoever. I also took classes at Southern CT State University (not a great school) and Tufts in Mass (a terrific school). The liberal arts classes did absolutely nothing except eat up valuable time and tuition money.
If we want to cut costs significantly, these are the things we need to consider.

Easy answer. Send your kids to RPI, WPI etc., they will be great engineers. OR to school in Taiwan.

But bash away on liberal arts. There are a number of studies (two are below) that show that broad based liberal arts students, are very desirable in the job market. They ability to think, brainstorm and problem solve (beyond engineering calculations) tend to do well training managers, not just drones. Not well articulated in these two, but others I have read, is that the benefit is higher for liberal arts students in a STEM field (which is what I happen to do).

http://www.usnews.com/news/college-of-tomorrow/articles/2014/09/22/there-is-value-in-liberal-arts-education-employers-say

https://www.aacu.org/press/press-releases/new-report-documents-liberal-arts-disciplines-prepare-graduates-long-term

And as a prof, your friend clearly does the bear minimum and is lucky to survive. Between teaching and research, I average over 50hr a week, including summers and breaks. Maybe it is different in the sciences where we right proposals, generate data and publish.

Nebe
11-12-2015, 08:46 PM
When you blow off liberal arts classes and only focus on what ever you are majoring in at college you believe really stupid sheet like the thought that the pyramids were built to store grain.

End of discussion.
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Jim in CT
11-12-2015, 09:04 PM
Easy answer. Send your kids to RPI, WPI etc., they will be great engineers. OR to school in Taiwan.

But bash away on liberal arts. There are a number of studies (two are below) that show that broad based liberal arts students, are very desirable in the job market. They ability to think, brainstorm and problem solve (beyond engineering calculations) tend to do well training managers, not just drones. Not well articulated in these two, but others I have read, is that the benefit is higher for liberal arts students in a STEM field (which is what I happen to do).

http://www.usnews.com/news/college-of-tomorrow/articles/2014/09/22/there-is-value-in-liberal-arts-education-employers-say

https://www.aacu.org/press/press-releases/new-report-documents-liberal-arts-disciplines-prepare-graduates-long-term

And as a prof, your friend clearly does the bear minimum and is lucky to survive. Between teaching and research, I average over 50hr a week, including summers and breaks. Maybe it is different in the sciences where we right proposals, generate data and publish.

"bash away on liberal arts"

Do you follow the news? Students at Mizzou demand that the president renounce his "white male priviledge". These kids want college to be "free", and they want all existing student loan debt wiped out. Abu Mumia Jamal gets welcomed with open arms to speak at colleges, but Condaleeza Rice isn't welcome. Spence cannot answer when I ask him why Hilary's lies don't make her a liar. That's thinking logically? Sorry, I don't see it.

Is every liberal arts major wasting his time? Of course not.

Is it fair to demand that every engineering and accounting major extend college by 3 semesters, and go tens of thousands of dollars deeper into debt, and get forced to take this crap? Maybe not.

"They ability to think"

Right, kids in these classes are taught to think for themselves, as opposed to simply regurgitating whatever the professor says. In my experience, these liberal academics just love getting challenged on their beliefs. Like that media professor at Missouri who tried to have a student manhandled away from the protest. I'm sure she gives equally good grades to conservative students and liberal students, no question. Half the regular guests at MSNBC are college professors, I am sure they welcome opposing points of view with an open mind.

Make it optional. If a science major wants to take these things (and go deeper into debt as a result) let him. If he just wants to take classes pertinent to his major, let him do that. Isn't that "choice"? I thought liberals were in favor of "choice". I know I heard that somewhere.

"not just drones"

OK, so everyone who doesn't take these classes and fawn all over their professors, is "just a drone". How very tolerant.

You want to make college significantly cheaper? That's a way to do it. You can also learn history, philosophy, critical thinking, by reading on your own.

"your friend clearly does the bear minimum " How the hell would you know that? He's very highly regarded on campus. The fact is, and it's a secret those in academia guard very closely, is that it's just not demanding. He teaches no more than 3 classes a semester. He has told me he does everything he can think of doing, and he can't get it to work out to 1,000 hours a year. I am certain he works harder than most of his colleagues, his students would certainly say so. He's just honest. I'm sorry if you don't like that. That you don't like it, doesn't make it false.

If a group of professors can't bring themselves to say out loud "boys should go to the boys' bathroom", then just perhaps, they don't have as much to teach as they think they do.

It's awfully presumptuous to assume that everyone is better off taking these classes. Even if they are better off, is it worth going that much deeper into debt? Why not leave that up to the consumer...the student? Why does that stuff have to be mandatory? Again, what's wrong with "choice"?

Jim in CT
11-12-2015, 09:09 PM
When you blow off liberal arts classes and only focus on what ever you are majoring in at college you believe really stupid sheet like the thought that the pyramids were built to store grain.

End of discussion.
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Oh. So one guy says something you think is stupid, and that proves your point? I have news for you. Carson went to Yale, which means he took all kinds of liberal arts classes, and he got good grades. So if you think Carson is an idiot, those courses didn't do him any good, did they?

You actually supported my argument, instead of refuting it.

Nebe
11-12-2015, 09:18 PM
I think anyone is an idiot who disregards science if it clashes with their religious beliefs.
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Jim in CT
11-12-2015, 09:22 PM
I think anyone is an idiot who disregards science if it clashes with their religious beliefs.
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If it bothers you when people disregard science, you should be in favor of my idea to let these kids take more science! Again, you are proving my point, not refuting it.

RIROCKHOUND
11-12-2015, 09:29 PM
"bash away on liberal arts"

Do you follow the news? Students at Mizzou demand that the president renounce his "white male priviledge". These kids want college to be "free", and they want all existing student loan debt wiped out. Abu Mumia Jamal gets welcomed with open arms to speak at colleges, but Condaleeza Rice isn't welcomegets mobbed off the stage. Spence cannot answer when I ask him why Hilary's lies don't make her a liar. That's thinking logically? Sorry, I don't see it.

Is every liberal arts major wasting his time? Of course not.

Is it fair to demand that every engineering and accounting major extend college by 3 semesters, and go tens of thousands of dollars deeper into debt, and get forced to take this crap? Maybe not.

"They ability to think"

Right, kids in these classes are taught to think for themselves, as opposed to simply regurgitating whatever the professor says. In my experience, these liberal academics just love getting challenged on their beliefs. Like that media professor at Missouri who tried to have a student manhandled away from the protest. I'm sure she gives equally good grades to conservative students and liberal students, no question. Half the regular guests at MSNBC are college professors, I am sure they welcome opposing points of view with an open mind.

Make it optional. If a science major wants to take these things (and go deeper into debt as a result) let him. If he just wants to take classes pertinent to his major, let him do that. Isn't that "choice"? I thought liberals were in favor of "choice". I know I heard that somewhere.

"not just drones"

OK, so everyone who doesn't take these classes and fawn all over their professors, is "just a drone". How very tolerant.

You want to make college significantly cheaper? That's a way to do it. You can also learn history, philosophy, critical thinking, by reading on your own.



Jim;
I showed you two studies where these backgrounds are very successful. It sounds like your biggest gripe is you were forced to take these classes you felt were useless. There is a reason many Asian countries, who were kicking US students asses on math and engineering are bringing back in more of the writing, history etc..

Drones was the wrong word. I know many articulate, bright engineers. I also have worked closely with some that couldn't work beyond an equation on a page.

FYI: This is right from the student outcomes engineering section of ABET (Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, Inc.).

General Criterion 3. Student Outcomes

The program must have documented student outcomes that prepare graduates to attain the program educational objectives.

Student outcomes are outcomes (a) through (k) plus any additional outcomes that may be articulated by the program.

(a) an ability to apply knowledge of mathematics, science, and engineering

(b) an ability to design and conduct experiments, as well as to analyze and interpret data

(c) an ability to design a system, component, or process to meet desired needs within realistic constraints such as economic, environmental, social, political, ethical, health and safety, manufacturability, and sustainability

(d) an ability to function on multidisciplinary teams

(e) an ability to identify, formulate, and solve engineering problems

(f) an understanding of professional and ethical responsibility

(g) an ability to communicate effectively

(h) the broad education necessary to understand the impact of engineering solutions in a global, economic, environmental, and societal context

(i) a recognition of the need for, and an ability to engage in life-long learning

(j) a knowledge of contemporary issues

(k) an ability to use the techniques, skills, and modern engineering tools necessary for engineering practice.



Go to RPI or WPI; they still require 4 years. Or go to a technical school. Trades remain in demand, and I think highly of those that choose that path if it is right for them.

I'm all for making college cheaper. Some of my best students cranked through a community college to finish a degree at a four year school. I graduated a state school, worked my ass off, and work at a different state school. I don't think academia should be ivory towers. I also know most students won't go learn history, philosophy etc. on their own. Add to that, many students don't know their path, and find it by being exposed to a variety of disciplines.

As far as your friend, good for him. I look around where I work and I don't see anyone putting in less than 40 legit hours/week.

RIROCKHOUND
11-12-2015, 09:33 PM
If it bothers you when people disregard science, you should be in favor of my idea to let these kids take more science! Again, you are proving my point, not refuting it.

So, at Wesleyan, there is a 3 year option. http://www.wesleyan.edu/academics/curriculum/3year.html. All students are also required to take science and math classes.

Jim in CT
11-12-2015, 09:40 PM
Maybe it is different in the sciences where we right proposals, generate data and publish.

I have taught actuarial science classes at UCONN, and Univ of Hartford. I could EASILY teach 3 a semester, and it wouldn't take me 30 hours a week, not even close. But math is probably one of the less time-consuming things to teach.

Maybe science is different.

I also don't think it's always fair that students pay for professors to do research and publish (science may be different). If you want to do research, find someone to pay you to do that. I don't think many students pick their college based on the articles published by employed faculty. Again, let the consumer, the student, make the choice. If he wants to take a particular class taught by an unknown graduate student, let him choose that and save money. If he wants to take out loans up to his eyeballs to take a class taught by a big lasagna in that field, let him choose that and live with the debt. if doing research makes you that much of a better teacher, the laws of supply and demand suggest that enough students will want to pay your premium. Personally, I don't think that's usually the case. Again, science may be different.

I think a lot of it is a scam, carefully orchestrated by the academics to live quite comfortably for doing not much teaching. I don't think I ever had a professor who taught more than 3 classes a semester. High school teachers teach all day, non stop.

Liz Warren, aka Apache Chief, complains tirelessly about how expensive college is, and how unfair it is to the kids. This is the same jerk who made 400k a year teaching at Harvard. If she really wants to make college affordable, she can take a huge paycut.

You fix a problem by addressing the primary cause of the problem. No one denies that college is too expensive. Where do colleges spend most of their money? I assume it's salary and payroll. Therefore, my critical thinking skills tell me, that's where the problem lies, and therefore where we can make the biggest dent in college costs.

Jim in CT
11-12-2015, 09:48 PM
Jim;
I showed you two studies where these backgrounds are very successful. It sounds like your biggest gripe is you were forced to take these classes you felt were useless. There is a reason many Asian countries, who were kicking US students asses on math and engineering are bringing back in more of the writing, history etc..

Drones was the wrong word. I know many articulate, bright engineers. I also have worked closely with some that couldn't work beyond an equation on a page.

FYI: This is right from the student outcomes engineering section of ABET (Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, Inc.).

General Criterion 3. Student Outcomes

The program must have documented student outcomes that prepare graduates to attain the program educational objectives.

Student outcomes are outcomes (a) through (k) plus any additional outcomes that may be articulated by the program.

(a) an ability to apply knowledge of mathematics, science, and engineering

(b) an ability to design and conduct experiments, as well as to analyze and interpret data

(c) an ability to design a system, component, or process to meet desired needs within realistic constraints such as economic, environmental, social, political, ethical, health and safety, manufacturability, and sustainability

(d) an ability to function on multidisciplinary teams

(e) an ability to identify, formulate, and solve engineering problems

(f) an understanding of professional and ethical responsibility

(g) an ability to communicate effectively

(h) the broad education necessary to understand the impact of engineering solutions in a global, economic, environmental, and societal context

(i) a recognition of the need for, and an ability to engage in life-long learning

(j) a knowledge of contemporary issues

(k) an ability to use the techniques, skills, and modern engineering tools necessary for engineering practice.



Go to RPI or WPI; they still require 4 years. Or go to a technical school. Trades remain in demand, and I think highly of those that choose that path if it is right for them.

I'm all for making college cheaper. Some of my best students cranked through a community college to finish a degree at a four year school. I graduated a state school, worked my ass off, and work at a different state school. I don't think academia should be ivory towers. I also know most students won't go learn history, philosophy etc. on their own. Add to that, many students don't know their path, and find it by being exposed to a variety of disciplines.

As far as your friend, good for him. I look around where I work and I don't see anyone putting in less than 40 legit hours/week.

"It sounds like your biggest gripe is you were forced to take these classes you felt were useless"

I'm out of school, my loans are paid off, it's not my gripe. I am trying to think about the welfare of the next generation. No skin off my nose.

"I also have worked closely with some that couldn't work beyond an equation on a page"

You'd be hard-pressed to find an occupation with more one-dimensional nerds than my field, actuarial science. I just don't think the answer is necessarily more liberal arts courses. Especially when we need to figure out ways to lower costs.

What's wrong with making it optional?

Bryan, look at the Yale kids, going berserk because a college professor was honest enough to tell them that they need to accept the fact that in life. sometimes they will get offended. And they couldn't deal with hearing that, so they are engaging in anarchy. I challenge the assumption that everyone is necessarily better off being exposed to whoever is teaching these kids to think this way.

Nebe
11-12-2015, 10:55 PM
you should see what goes on at an art school Jim. :rotfl:
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scottw
11-13-2015, 04:29 AM
great article for the militant atheist

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/426668/atheism-science-religion

the problem with, or the beauty of.... science, religion and politics is that they all contain within and across, competing thoughts... the beauty is the product that can be the result of competing thought ..the problem is the sense of superiority that a little "knowledge" can give an individual or group turning them into dishonest closed minded militants that become tools of destruction rather than instruments of good...we see this in politics..in religion... and science...and on American College campuses currently ...

"Here’s the problem with all these false dichotomies: At bottom, they come from, and reinforce, illiteracy. And while sophisticates can, and too often do, produce their own exquisite forms of barbarism, widespread illiteracy probably inexorably leads to barbarism. A scientist who doesn’t understand anything about epistemology, or religion, or philosophy, and gets on his soapbox is a joke. A scientist who does all these things and as a result is on best-seller lists and gets published in The New Yorker is a symptom of a serious social disease. Never mind the science-versus-religion “debate,” such as it is — widespread confusion about science’s epistemological framework is producing a lot of shoddy science, and that should have us all concerned."

spence
11-13-2015, 05:51 AM
In reality, that's precisely what's it's designed to do. Which you would concede, if you could honestly opine on the insanity taking place at colleges right now. I'm not sure that most of what goes on at college isn't intellectually subtractive.
I'm not sure you understand what liberal arts means.
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scottw
11-13-2015, 06:16 AM
I'm not sure you understand what liberal arts means.
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if the meaning of the term "liberal" has evolved in education as it has in politics then it would mean "marxist arts" :wavey:

Fishpart
11-13-2015, 06:25 AM
In reality, that's precisely what's it's designed to do. Which you would concede, if you could honestly opine on the insanity taking place at colleges right now. I'm not sure that most of what goes on at college isn't intellectually subtractive.
The new liberal norm isn't debate but to silence those who disagree with you.

I have a tecnical degree from Northeastern in the 80's. I had to take very few liberal arts courses back then and I looked at them as easy gpa boosters because of the regurgitate the lecture method.

The classes gave a good foundation because 20+ years later in a technical job 80% of it is soft skills.
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Jim in CT
11-13-2015, 07:46 AM
I'm not sure you understand what liberal arts means.
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You know what? I have asked you a simple question 20 times on this forum, and you won't answer. Because you can't. So go ahead, and tell me what "liberal arts" means, and the value it adds.

Jim in CT
11-13-2015, 07:57 AM
I agree 100% that everyone benefits from being taught how to solve problems, to think critically, and to communicate effectively.

I categorigally reject the notion that kids routinely acquire these skills, by being forced to take liberal arts courses at college. If someone designed an undergraduate class to teach these exact skills, it would be a great class. That's not what gets taught.

Proof? The link in my first post. College kids want college to be free, and at the same time, they want minimum wage on campus increased to $15. Now, by what logic can you make something "free", by increasing its fixed cost?

Look at what happened at Yale this week. A professor had the chutzpah to tell his students that the right to free speech gives others the right to express themselves in a way that they may find offensive. That's undeniably true. How did the students react? They went berserk, because they have never been taught how to deal with challenges to what they believe.

Look at guest speakers invited to prestigious schools. Abu Mumia Jamal and Bill Ayers are welcome guests. If Ann Coulter or even Condaleeza Rice is invited to speak, everyone goes berserk.

I could not invent better evidence of the lack of thought that takes place, then exactly what's happening on college campuses this week.

Nebe
11-13-2015, 08:16 AM
Ann coulter? Good lord tell me you are not a fan of that evil hate filled #^&#^&#^&#^&.
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Jim in CT
11-13-2015, 08:27 AM
Ann coulter? Good lord tell me you are not a fan of that evil hate filled #^&#^&#^&#^&.
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I agree with her on most issues, I don't like her offensive style.

But a true liberal thinker should be willing to debate her, rather than silence her. College students, and their professors. for the most part, don't want her on campus. Because they don't want to be challenged, because all they know how to do is insult those with whom they disagree, not debate them.

Is she more evil than Abu Mumia Jamal or Bill Ayers? How many cops has she killed, how many bombs has she planted?

Nebe
11-13-2015, 08:47 AM
I agree. You shouldn't silence her by turning her away.
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PaulS
11-13-2015, 09:30 AM
Welders make more than Philosophers.

buckman
11-13-2015, 09:32 AM
Welders make more than Philosophers.

Unless the philosopher happens to be a professor
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RIROCKHOUND
11-13-2015, 09:50 AM
Unless the philosopher happens to be a professor
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Depends on where you work too...
We don't all make 400K!

There is a market Jim.
Want to go to a religious based school, they exist. Jesuit, go to BC. Fundamentalist, go to Liberty; they have an entire creationist center. I know, I went to grad school with a prof there.

Want to go to a school where there is zero research being done by the faculty? Go to a community college or a for-profit (Univ of Phoenix et al). Pay by the course. The job market and employers set the value on those degrees vs a more traditional four-year degree.

ABET is a not for profit accreditation program for engineers, even they think you need more than just your 'major' classes.

Last, in the sciences we largely do fund our own research externally. This research allows us to advance our sciences, train students in research and hopefully in the prepare the next generation. Add to that service internally helping the university and externally, doing outreach and community education adds hours for me as well.

Teaching vs. research load varies by the school. At an R-I university (research-I) school, the profs teach less and research more. At and R-II or R-III the balance swings the other way. Again, the market place is there, defined and easily interpreted by parents and incoming students. Is college too expensive? Yes, and I would like to see it cheaper (not free) but students do have options. No one is forcing you to go to Conn College.

As far as what happened the last week? This crap happens every decade; boomers parents lamented the 1960's college experience; they lamented their kids experiences and actions in the 1980's.

PaulS
11-13-2015, 10:57 AM
I heard the crybabies are going to not participate and shut things down if they don't get their way!

Nebe
11-13-2015, 11:32 AM
Welders make more than Philosophers.

philosophical welders make even more!
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Raven
11-13-2015, 11:34 AM
Ann coulter? Good lord tell me you are not a fan of that evil hate filled #^&#^&#^&#^&.
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she's a blonde witch - easily boils your BLOOD

and i firmly Agree .... you have to be a total
free thinker to POST at S-B :uhuh:

Jim in CT
11-13-2015, 11:52 AM
Depends on where you work too...
We don't all make 400K!

There is a market Jim.
Want to go to a religious based school, they exist. Jesuit, go to BC. Fundamentalist, go to Liberty; they have an entire creationist center. I know, I went to grad school with a prof there.

Want to go to a school where there is zero research being done by the faculty? Go to a community college or a for-profit (Univ of Phoenix et al). Pay by the course. The job market and employers set the value on those degrees vs a more traditional four-year degree.

ABET is a not for profit accreditation program for engineers, even they think you need more than just your 'major' classes.

Last, in the sciences we largely do fund our own research externally. This research allows us to advance our sciences, train students in research and hopefully in the prepare the next generation. Add to that service internally helping the university and externally, doing outreach and community education adds hours for me as well.

Teaching vs. research load varies by the school. At an R-I university (research-I) school, the profs teach less and research more. At and R-II or R-III the balance swings the other way. Again, the market place is there, defined and easily interpreted by parents and incoming students. Is college too expensive? Yes, and I would like to see it cheaper (not free) but students do have options. No one is forcing you to go to Conn College.

As far as what happened the last week? This crap happens every decade; boomers parents lamented the 1960's college experience; they lamented their kids experiences and actions in the 1980's.

"There is a market Jim. "

Not at public schools. UCONN is the flagship public school in CT. If I want to go there, and het a degree in engineering or accounting, I need to take a couple semesters' worth of liberal stuff. If we want to make college less expensive, one way to do it, would be to offer kids the choice to eliminate that other stuff. Again, liberals sure like to identify themselves as pro-choice, so I can't fathom why they'd have any issue with that. It would also make college much more affordable. I would argue that in the vast majority of cases, the kids aren't missing out on much. That's based on my experience as a student, my experience as a teacher, and my exoerience hiring a large number of recent college grads over the years, and my observations of my brother and my friend who are full-time college professors. And my observations of the way these kids act when their hard-core liberal beliefs are challenged in any way.

If UCONN offered such a degree, I would bet my life that the accounbting majors who took the expedited track, would be just as in demand as those whochose to take the liberal stuff.

Yoiu are saying that if kids just want to take courses relevent to their profession, they are releggated to community colleges and for-profits. Why pidgeon-hole these kids that way? Don't you want these kids to have good opportunities?

Liberals claim to care about choice, claim to care bout helping the poor. Yet if a poor kid wants to go to UCONN to stuy engineeriung, but he can't afford all the extra stuff, you'd relegate him to a sub-par school. Is that consistent with the liberal ideology? I don't think so.

It's win-win. It increases choice, and drives down costs, both stated goals of the left.

"This crap happens every decade"

Right. It happens all the time. And who are the ones engaging in anarchy? Did the young Republicans clubs at colleges, go crazy when OJ was acquitted? Nope. It's almost always the liberals. Because that's what they learn - when someone challenges your beliefs, they are a hatemonger, so treat them as such. That proves my point, which is that there's little real-life value to that Marxist garbage. It's all a scam. Professors like money, so they cram the required agenda with useless crap that guarantees job security. And also completely fails to prepare these kids for real life.

RIROCKHOUND
11-13-2015, 12:12 PM
Liberals claim to care about choice, claim to care bout helping the poor. Yet if a poor kid wants to go to UCONN to stuy engineeriung, but he can't afford all the extra stuff, you'd relegate him to a sub-par school.

It has nothing to do with relegating them. It has to do with meeting national requirements for degrees.

Then WHY THE #^&#^&#^&#^& does ABET, who is responsible for accrediting engineering programs not accredit programs where there is no 'extra stuff'

I looked at UCONN, for Mech Engineering, I count 5 "Extra" classes labeled as Gen Ed (I am not counting a basic writing course as 'extra')

For a full-time student, there is not much difference financially for full-time (12-18 credits/semester), so this is less than 1 course a semester 'extra'. For Part-time, there is a difference in cost per-course, however, the English majors forced to take my Earth Science classes probably feel the same way, but I damn sure think they should take some science and math!

For UCONN Accounting, why don't they offer an expedited Accounting major, you think it is just a big scam? It isn't to fulfill the requirements for the national board for accrediting a degree. This isn't about denying choice.
I counted 7 "Extra" classes for accounting, and I suspect you can double dip categories and requirements to get this to 4 or 5.

"We were the first accounting program in New England to receive separate national accreditation by AACSB International, the premier accrediting agency for Bachelor’s, Master’s and doctoral degree programs in business administration and accounting."
http://accounting.business.uconn.edu/#


This is all based on MY experience as a professor. It isn't a perfect system but what you describe is a step backwards, NOT forward.

Jim in CT
11-13-2015, 12:28 PM
It has nothing to do with relegating them. It has to do with meeting national requirements for degrees.

Then WHY THE #^&#^&#^&#^& does ABET, who is responsible for accrediting engineering programs not accredit programs where there is no 'extra stuff'

I looked at UCONN, for Mech Engineering, I count 5 "Extra" classes labeled as Gen Ed (I am not counting a basic writing course as 'extra')

For a full-time student, there is not much difference financially for full-time (12-18 credits/semester), so this is less than 1 course a semester 'extra'. For Part-time, there is a difference in cost per-course, however, the English majors forced to take my Earth Science classes probably feel the same way, but I damn sure think they should take some science and math!

For UCONN Accounting, why don't they offer an expedited Accounting major, you think it is just a big scam? It isn't to fulfill the requirements for the national board for accrediting a degree. This isn't about denying choice.
I counted 7 "Extra" classes for accounting, and I suspect you can double dip categories and requirements to get this to 4 or 5.

"We were the first accounting program in New England to receive separate national accreditation by AACSB International, the premier accrediting agency for Bachelor’s, Master’s and doctoral degree programs in business administration and accounting."
http://accounting.business.uconn.edu/#


This is all based on MY experience as a professor. It isn't a perfect system but what you describe is a step backwards, NOT forward.

"It has to do with meeting national requirements for degrees."

Who sets the national requirements that do get a debgree in electrical engineering, I need to take history or literature? Those aren't set by the school? I'm guessing those national requirements are set by academics, who want to stay employed and comfortable.

"WHY THE #^&#^&#^&#^& does ABET, who is responsible for accrediting engineering programs not accredit programs where there is no 'extra stuff'"

I don't know the answer to that. In my profession, to be a credentialed actuary, you need to pass brutal exams. You don't have to explain what the relationship between Ahab and Moby #^&#^&#^&#^& is a metaphor for. I'm not sure that knowledge would make me a better engineer, either.

"why don't they offer an expedited Accounting major"

because if they did, every student who isn't rich would choose that track, and then they'd need to let go some liberal arts professors.

"I looked at UCONN, for Mech Engineering, I count 5 "Extra" classes labeled as Gen Ed (I am not counting a basic writing course as 'extra')"

It was a lot more than 5 when I was there. In any event, that's a semester. At least $10k. Plus 6 months earlier that one could enter the workforce. What's average starting salary for a UCONN mechanical engineer? $50k? So if you graduate a semester earlier, you save $10k by not paying the school, and you earn an additional $25k by starting work 6 months earlier. So the total opportunity cost of those 5 classes is $35k. And that's if there are only 5.

"I damn sure think they should take some science and math!"

So do I.

"It isn't a perfect system"

It's pretty close to perfect for the people who get cushy jobs, making a good salary, lots of time off, with insane benefits (their children typically don't pay tuition at the schools the teach at).

Bryan, if we want to make college more affordable, you have to start with the biggest expenditures. That's not my idea, that's called math. You won't make college cheaper by recycling paper or by using pencils more efficiently or by switching to LED lightbulbs and low-flow toilets in the dorms.

RIROCKHOUND
11-13-2015, 12:34 PM
It was a lot more than 5 when I was there.

"I damn sure think they should take some science and math!"

So do I.

Bryan, if we want to make college more affordable, you have to start with the biggest expenditures. That's not my idea, that's called math. You won't make college cheaper by recycling paper or by using pencils more efficiently or by switching to LED lightbulbs and low-flow toilets in the dorms.

So you think the English majors should be forced to take Science and Math classes, but not the other way around for Accounting or Engineering to take some other 'extra' courses?

Were you an older student or a traditional student out of high-school?

p.s. you save A LOT of money by doing all that by the way... particularly the lighting/electrical aspects...

RIROCKHOUND
11-13-2015, 12:53 PM
I just went and looked, b/c I was curious.
At RPI, the engineering program requires 6 humanities/social sciences gen eds. I don't think that they are setting this up to be the great liberal bastion of engineering...

"Academics
Our mission is to educate leaders of tomorrow for technology-based careers; to celebrate discovery, and the responsible application of technology; to create knowledge and global prosperity.

Have a solid foundation in mathematics, science, and engineering, and be able to apply these to practical use.
Be able to identify, model, analyze, and solve challenging real world problems.
Have specialized technical knowledge in their chosen field.
Have strong communication skills with emphasis on technical writing and interpersonal communication.
Be able to design innovative products, processes or systems.

Perform effectively on diverse, multidisciplinary teams, both as leader and contributor.
Be informed citizens broadly educated in the humanities and social sciences.
Be prepared to practice engineering in a socially responsible and ethical manner.
Have learned in a creative, stimulating environment that prepares and motivates them to continue to grow and learn."
http://eng.rpi.edu/

Jimbo
11-13-2015, 01:05 PM
I'm sorta getting negative vibes about your opinions of people who pursued Liberal Arts degrees. Why would you think we're any different than someone who pursues and engineering or science degree and has no use for mandatory core classes? I pursued a degree in English, couldn't stand math and had no use for chemistry or physics. But I lucked out. Because of a special deal my freshman year I could waive math and pursue advanced courses in Spanish. Chemistry was a waste of time because it was easier than the high school course I took, and "Rocks for Jocks", the geology course I took had tons of field trips and a hot professor, easy "A's". But if I had my choice I probably would have skipped them, as well as Economics and Psychology, for which I've also had no use since college. But in the end I'm glad I muscled through them. Maybe in some small way I have used them and just don't realize it, because those core classes are intended to make us more well rounded, which may not be an entirely measureable trait.
OK, I'm ready for it, gimme the, "That's just what a Liberal Arts major would say."

RIROCKHOUND
11-13-2015, 01:07 PM
I'm sorta getting negative vibes about your opinions of people who pursued Liberal Arts degrees. Why would you think we're any different than someone who pursues and engineering or science degree and has no use for mandatory core classes? I pursued a degree in English, couldn't stand math and had no use for chemistry or physics. But I lucked out. Because of a special deal my freshman year I could waive math and pursue advanced courses in Spanish. Chemistry was a waste of time because it was easier than the high school course I took, and "Rocks for Jocks", the geology course I took had tons of field trips and a hot professor, easy "A's". But if I had my choice I probably would have skipped them, as well as Economics and Psychology, for which I've also had no use since college. But in the end I'm glad I muscled through them. Maybe in some small way I have used them and just don't realize it, because those core classes are intended to make us more well rounded, which may not be an entirely measurable trait.
OK, I'm ready for it, gimme the, "That's just what a Liberal Arts major would say."

Hi Jimbo;
Remind me what your career was in? How did your background help your work?

FishermanTim
11-13-2015, 01:27 PM
Many colleges today are grooming the next generation of "sheep" who were "sheep-dogged" by some of the worst academic leaders to date.
When the primary character of many grads is "entitlement" and "MY beliefs", it's not a shock when they are confronted by a logical intelligent argument that they "protest" that they're rights are being violated.

All they show me (like the morons driving daddy's BMW, AUDI or LEXUS) is that they are too stupid to know they threw away good money on a wasted "education".

Nebe
11-13-2015, 01:46 PM
I can guarantee you one thing.
Not sure how to prove this theory but I would guess that Bernie Sandars has a much higher ratio of college educated free thinking types vs while trump has the same ratio, but it's GED VS high school diploma.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Jim in CT
11-13-2015, 02:08 PM
So you think the English majors should be forced to take Science and Math classes, but not the other way around for Accounting or Engineering to take some other 'extra' courses?

Were you an older student or a traditional student out of high-school?

p.s. you save A LOT of money by doing all that by the way... particularly the lighting/electrical aspects...

"So you think the English majors should be forced to take Science and Math classes"

I said I think they should take science and math. I'm not in favor of forcing them. That would just be my suggestion.

"Were you an older student or a traditional student out of high-school?"

Traditional. But I was smart enough to know that I was getting scammed. My father was also an electrical engineer, and made it clear that I would learn little in the liberal arts courses that I would ever need. He was absolutely, 100% correct.

"you save A LOT of money by doing all that by the way... particularly the lighting/electrical aspects"

I doubt that.

These kids want to make college cheaper. You can't do that, without cutting expenditures. And I have to believe that the #1 discretionary expenditure, by far, is payroll. Therefore, if you ignore payroll, you can't make a huge dent in the cost. You just can't. You solve a problem by addressing the underlying cause, not what you wish the underlying cause to be. I learned that in science classes.

Jim in CT
11-13-2015, 02:10 PM
I can guarantee you one thing.
Not sure how to prove this theory but I would guess that Bernie Sandars has a much higher ratio of college educated free thinking types vs while trump has the same ratio, but it's GED VS high school diploma.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

"Sandars has a much higher ratio of college educated free thinking types "

You may be right. And the reason, is that academia is radically liberal. If the people who teach those classes tell their students "you should demand that college be free, and at the same time, we all want raises", then they aren't helping those kids, and the kids are wasting time and money.

spence
11-13-2015, 02:14 PM
My father was also an electrical engineer, and made it clear that I would learn little in the liberal arts courses that I would ever need. He was absolutely, 100% correct.
This is revealing.

Jim in CT
11-13-2015, 02:20 PM
This is revealing.

He also taught me that if someone asks me a question about my beliefs that I cannot answer, I should question why I believe what I do.

Just sayin'.

buckman
11-13-2015, 02:29 PM
I can guarantee you one thing.
Not sure how to prove this theory but I would guess that Bernie Sandars has a much higher ratio of college educated free thinking types vs while trump has the same ratio, but it's GED VS high school diploma.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

That will all change when the freethinkers have jobs and families to support . Unless of course you and I are supporting their family's
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Sea Dangles
11-13-2015, 02:39 PM
I say we should keep college expensive. If your parents are unable to afford it then learn how to use a shovel or clean tables.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

scottw
11-13-2015, 02:49 PM
I can guarantee you one thing.
Not sure how to prove this theory but I would guess that Bernie Sandars has a much higher ratio of college educated free thinking types vs while trump has the same ratio, but it's GED VS high school diploma.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

pretty sure Bernie Sandbars has a higher ratio of stoned supporters too!

buckman
11-13-2015, 03:10 PM
pretty sure Bernie Sandbars has a higher ratio of stoned supporters too!

That's why they are free from thinking ;)
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Jimbo
11-13-2015, 04:58 PM
Professor Rockhound, my career was with the world's largest global satellite communications provider. I took a 1 year program and got a diploma in computer programming that got my foot in the door and spent the next 30 years jumping on things my college education prepared me for, like developing a distance learning program, writing procedures, writing documentation, writing press releases, writing patents to protect the company's intellectual property, asset management. If I encountered a situation where I was in an engineering function, which happened frequently, like doing equations of some sort, I got someone to show me the steps on their calculator and I memorized them. I think they call it "on the job training, or learning by doing". I think a lot of professional jobs are like that. You get the basics of something in college and take that to the workforce and apply it.
What I'm profoundly confused about is how the statement can be made that math and science for the non-technical person is recommended, but public speaking, creative or technical writing, or history for the technically bound is a load of crap.
I don't necessarily think kids really want college to be cheaper, I think many just want to bypass things they think are trivial, bypass entry level jobs and jump into a CEO's salary because they think they're owed that.

spence
11-13-2015, 05:45 PM
Professor Rockhound, my career was with the world's largest global satellite communications provider. I took a 1 year program and got a diploma in computer programming that got my foot in the door and spent the next 30 years jumping on things my college education prepared me for, like developing a distance learning program, writing procedures, writing documentation, writing press releases, writing patents to protect the company's intellectual property, asset management. If I encountered a situation where I was in an engineering function, which happened frequently, like doing equations of some sort, I got someone to show me the steps on their calculator and I memorized them. I think they call it "on the job training, or learning by doing". I think a lot of professional jobs are like that. You get the basics of something in college and take that to the workforce and apply it.
What I'm profoundly confused about is how the statement can be made that math and science for the non-technical person is recommended, but public speaking, creative or technical writing, or history for the technically bound is a load of crap.
I don't necessarily think kids really want college to be cheaper, I think many just want to bypass things they think are trivial, bypass entry level jobs and jump into a CEO's salary because they think they're owed that.

Bingo.

Additionally, the engineering or actuary job Jim wants to fast track to is evaporating. His is a 1993's mindset at best.

The innovation economy of the future doesn't reward narrowly minded thinkers, it requires a multi-perspective approach to everything that can synthesize dissimilar ideas, market them, manage them etc…

I'm an artist in a sales job working with engineers on operational strategy. It's exactly what the ancient Greeks wanted.

Nebe
11-13-2015, 05:47 PM
Professor Rockhound, my career was with the world's largest global satellite communications provider. I took a 1 year program and got a diploma in computer programming that got my foot in the door and spent the next 30 years jumping on things my college education prepared me for, like developing a distance learning program, writing procedures, writing documentation, writing press releases, writing patents to protect the company's intellectual property, asset management. If I encountered a situation where I was in an engineering function, which happened frequently, like doing equations of some sort, I got someone to show me the steps on their calculator and I memorized them. I think they call it "on the job training, or learning by doing". I think a lot of professional jobs are like that. You get the basics of something in college and take that to the workforce and apply it.
What I'm profoundly confused about is how the statement can be made that math and science for the non-technical person is recommended, but public speaking, creative or technical writing, or history for the technically bound is a load of crap.
I don't necessarily think kids really want college to be cheaper, I think many just want to bypass things they think are trivial, bypass entry level jobs and jump into a CEO's salary because they think they're owed that.

Just remember that if you have a background like you do, you might not believe that the pyramids were built to store grain. ;)
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Jimbo
11-13-2015, 06:21 PM
Not so fast, Nebe. If nothing else, my background taught me to "think outside the pyramid".

Nebe
11-13-2015, 06:22 PM
Ha! Yes!
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

detbuch
11-13-2015, 06:44 PM
Hey, Nebe, maybe the poor and middle class Egyptians originally built them to store grain so that they would have a supply of food in the bad times like when global warming dried up the Nile and so forth. You know . . . that fair distribution of stuff that poor and middle class folk believe in. But, as always seems to be the case, the top .01 percent, Pharaohs and such, scarfed up the pyramids which were built on the backs of the poor, for their own personal use. You know . . . that income inequality thing . . . The poor and middle class Egyptians sure could have used a Bernie back then.

detbuch
11-13-2015, 06:51 PM
Bingo.

Additionally, the engineering or actuary job Jim wants to fast track to is evaporating. His is a 1993's mindset at best.

The innovation economy of the future doesn't reward narrowly minded thinkers, it requires a multi-perspective approach to everything that can synthesize dissimilar ideas, market them, manage them etc…

I'm an artist in a sales job working with engineers on operational strategy. It's exactly what the ancient Greeks wanted.

Good points. Especially pointing out Jim's outdated 1993's mindset. Such backward thinking has no place in the innovative future of the ancient Greeks. :cheers2:

Jim in CT
11-13-2015, 06:52 PM
Professor Rockhound, my career was with the world's largest global satellite communications provider. I took a 1 year program and got a diploma in computer programming that got my foot in the door and spent the next 30 years jumping on things my college education prepared me for, like developing a distance learning program, writing procedures, writing documentation, writing press releases, writing patents to protect the company's intellectual property, asset management. If I encountered a situation where I was in an engineering function, which happened frequently, like doing equations of some sort, I got someone to show me the steps on their calculator and I memorized them. I think they call it "on the job training, or learning by doing". I think a lot of professional jobs are like that. You get the basics of something in college and take that to the workforce and apply it.
What I'm profoundly confused about is how the statement can be made that math and science for the non-technical person is recommended, but public speaking, creative or technical writing, or history for the technically bound is a load of crap.
I don't necessarily think kids really want college to be cheaper, I think many just want to bypass things they think are trivial, bypass entry level jobs and jump into a CEO's salary because they think they're owed that.

"but public speaking, creative or technical writing, or history for the technically bound is a load of crap"

Those things aren't a load of crap. But that's not the core of liberal arts courses. The core of liberal arts programs is to create a sense of entitlement, victimhood, and liberalism. Turn on the TV , watch what has been happening at Yale, maybe the finest liberal arts school in the world. The students there are idiotic, they couldn't form a coherent thought if their life depended on it. They are not learning the skills that you itemized, no one would be opposed to genuinely learning those skills. Those skills are critical. That's not what is being ingrained in these kids.

"I don't necessarily think kids really want college to be cheaper"

Due respect, then you're not paying attention to what they are saying, which is probably why you think liberal arts courses are designed to teach the valuable skills you itemized".

spence
11-13-2015, 06:54 PM
Good points. Especially pointing out Jim's outdated 1993's mindset. Such backward thinking has no place in the innovative future of the ancient Greeks.
Conservative ideas persist no?

detbuch
11-13-2015, 06:57 PM
Conservative ideas persist no?

Tell it to the progressives.

Jim in CT
11-13-2015, 07:02 PM
Bingo.

Additionally, the engineering or actuary job Jim wants to fast track to is evaporating. His is a 1993's mindset at best.

The innovation economy of the future doesn't reward narrowly minded thinkers, it requires a multi-perspective approach to everything that can synthesize dissimilar ideas, market them, manage them etc…

I'm an artist in a sales job working with engineers on operational strategy. It's exactly what the ancient Greeks wanted.

"the engineering or actuary job Jim wants to fast track to is evaporating."

Clearly you know better than I do what skills are required for entry-level actuarial jobs.

"doesn't reward narrowly minded thinkers"

I never said narrow-minded thinking is the goal. What I said is that liberal arts courses aren't the path to open-minded thinking you claim they are. Again, look at Yale. A professor says "you don't have the right not to be offended", and the kids went berserk. Academia is one of the most narrow-minded bastions of thought in the universe.

If the point of these schools is to promote diversity of ideas, please explain the reaction when Condaleeza Rice or Ann Coulter is invited to speak? I'm all ears.

When Dr Rice was invited to speak at Rutgers, the faculty protested. Now, you are going to ask me to believe that those same faculty members promote diversity of thought in their class? I can give you as many examples as you want. The Mizzou professor who asked for "muscle" to haul off a student whose viewpoint she didn't agree with? She's going to teach her kids to be open-minded?

Ann Coulter gets invited to UCONN, the students storm the stage to silence her.

There is a Himalayan mountain of evidence to show that there is zero diversity of thought, or tolerance for opposing views, taught to these poor kids.

Let me guess, your response is "apples and oranges"

Jim in CT
11-13-2015, 07:09 PM
AT Amherst College, another one of the premier liberal arts colleges in the world, students want to punish a student who carried a sign saying, get ready for the horror, "all lives matter".

Among their demands...get a load of all this open-minded thought, Spence!!

"we do not tolerate the actions of student(s) who posted the ‘All Lives Matter’ posters, and the ‘Free Speech’ posters"

Wow! That's open-mindedness, and respectful of opposing points of view, eh? They are insisting on silencing those who feel that all life matters. If that's the "reward" for a world-class liberal arts curriculum, forgive me if I'm not impressed.

Read the wording..."we do not tolerate..." I wonder where they learned all that tolerance?


http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/13/amherst-activists-demand-reeducation-for-students-who-celebrated-free-speech/

Of course, it sounds great to say that we need well-rounded folks. I don't disagree. But the empirical evidence suggests that liberal arts courses are not the path to acquiring those skills.

spence
11-13-2015, 07:13 PM
Clearly you know better than I do what skills are required for entry-level actuarial jobs.

I love it, College is preparing you for tomorrow. What happens next is up to you.

Jim in CT
11-13-2015, 07:26 PM
I love it, College is preparing you for tomorrow. What happens next is up to you.

If these kids think you make college "free" by increasing the fixed costs, and judging by their demands that's exactly what they think, then no, college isn't preparing them for tomorrow. All it's preparing them for is a lifetime of self-identified victimhood.