So, Obama has been doing quite a bit of bragging lately about our vetting process for Middle Eastern folks who want to come here. Obama had said the vetting is so effective, that there is no valid reason to worry about refugees coming here.

Well, the female CA shooter went through that process, or a similar process, right? Does our idiot-in-chief want to claim that there's still no reason to be concerned about Muslim refugees from Syria?

He says ISIS is the JV, they grow. He says they are contained, they kill 100 in Paris. He says the vetting process will keep us safe, 14 dead people in California expose that lie. Which is likely why, amazingly, the White House is silent when it's declared this is the worst act of Islamic terror on our soil since 9/11. That, or he had a tee time somewhere or a private concert with Beyoncé to get to.

Everything this guy touches, turns to vomit. It's incredible.

It is uncanny, that whenever he opens his mouth and makes a statement , within days the exact opposite happens and proves him entirely out of touch with reality
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Well, the female CA shooter went through that process, or a similar process, right? Does our idiot-in-chief want to claim that there's still no reason to be concerned about Muslim refugees from Syria?

Process is quite different from what I've read. The K-1 visa is actually supposed to be pretty hard to get through. Even have to provide police records from every place you've lived since age 16. You also have no idea if she was radicalized before she came, you're just making assumptions at this point.

I'd be a lot more concerned over US passport holders and European passport holders that can just walk in if they're not being watched.

It is uncanny, that whenever he opens his mouth and makes a statement , within days the exact opposite happens and proves him entirely out of touch with reality
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Exactly. Next time he says the terrorists are on the run, I will immediately go hide in an underground bunker until it's safe to ascend.

Process is quite different from what I've read. The K-1 visa is actually supposed to be pretty hard to get through. Even have to provide police records from every place you've lived since age 16. You also have no idea if she was radicalized before she came, you're just making assumptions at this point.

I'd be a lot more concerned over US passport holders and European passport holders that can just walk in if they're not being watched.

You think you're proving YOUR point? You are correct, the vetting process cannot stop someone from coming over and getting radicalized the next day. That's not an endorsement of the vetting, it's further proof that the vetting doesn't keep us safe. So why bother? Your point is further evidence that this religion may not be compatible with the civilized world.

We have freedom of religion. No one believes that the founding fathers meant that to provide a safe haven for Aztecs to come in and sacrifice children to the gods. It's not a suicide pact.

What would it take to admit your side is wrong on this? How many bullet-riddled, charred bodies? Or just one, if it's someone you happen to care about?

Jim, how much time have you spent learning about either process?

Jim, how much time have you spent learning about either process?

I was responding to what you said. You said the vetting cannot stop someone from getting in who isn't already in trouble, but who becomes radicalized the next day. So the vetting process has big holes, right?

I know the vetting process, hailed by Obama just a few days ago, came up a wee bit short for 14 families in California, and that your hero has precisely nothing to say about it. Not sure I need to know more.

So I guess the answer is zero. Well, at least you're consistently informed.

[QUOTE=spence;1087924]Process is quite different from what I've read. The K-1 visa is actually supposed to be pretty hard to get through. Even have to provide police records from every place you've lived since age 16. You also have no idea if she was radicalized before she came, you're just making assumptions at this point.

Spence apparently it is not hard to get.....she listed a home on the k-1 of a residence that never existed......... the K-1 visa is only good for 6 months, never kept track of her but yet she got a green card....this is not an assumption....FACT

So I guess the answer is zero. Well, at least you're consistently informed.

I learned from what you posted. If that's the equivalent of "zero", and it may well be, then so be it. I also know that 14 Americans are dead, despite whatever vetting procedures we have in place. And that your hero is hiding under his desk, rater than admit that the vetting processes are a lot more flawed than he was making them out to be.

Here's what I know about the vetting process details...it's not nearly enough to provide us the security we deserve.

Japan has a wonderful solution to Islam. It's simply not allowed to be practiced on Japan's soil.
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And we are supposed to better than that. Though in practice a lot (not all or even most) of followers / believers of Islam is incompatible with the how we live in the USA and our Constitution. I wish it were otherwise.

Unfortunately if you feel that all followers of Islam can and want to peacefully integrate into our system and our laws and our governing, you are mistaken. This is not the fault of everyday Americans or our system of Government. No objective minded thinking person can possibly believe that the major part of the problem is with us, and not the followers of Islam.

Japan has a wonderful solution to Islam. It's simply not allowed to be practiced on Japan's soil.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

That and if they legalize...I'm there!

Unfortunately if you feel that all followers of Islam can and want to peacefully integrate into our system and our laws and our governing, you are mistaken. This is not the fault of everyday Americans or our system of Government. No objective minded thinking person can possibly believe that the major part of the problem is with us, and not the followers of Islam.
This is pretty empty rhetoric. Nobody believes all Muslims can integrate into our system of government, though I'd note that of the hundreds of thousands that have only a handful have engaged in religiously motivated criminal behavior.

Really at the heart of this issue is if the issue is about Islam or politics. I'd say more often than not it's about power and religion is used as a tool to consolidate it.

Also, what is it that the regions producing Islamic extremists have in common? Hmmm, let me think...

This is pretty empty rhetoric. Nobody believes all Muslims can integrate into our system of government, though I'd note that of the hundreds of thousands that have only a handful have engaged in religiously motivated criminal behavior.

The issue, simplified, is that their are immigrants (legal, illegal, radical, not radical) coming here and committing crime or worse injury and death. That is the issue. The vast, vast majority of immigrants come here and want to grow into the fabric of our land.

Now, our options are to keep them and have them assimilate into productive, lawful members of our society, not allow them to come, or to suffer an increase of reprisals against citizens here in his country.

I would have like to see them assimilate into productive, lawful members of our society. I do not realistically see how that will be done without a lot of death and turmoil. Hope is not a plan.

"Give me your poor tired huddled masses yearning to be free", not take advantage of our charity and protection, and maybe wage jihad.

Really at the heart of this issue is if the issue is about Islam or politics. I'd say more often than not it's about power and religion is used as a tool to consolidate it.

Also, what is it that the regions producing Islamic extremists have in common? Hmmm, let me think...

No, the heart of the issue is that we are a generally open and generally peaceful society, that (used to) want people to excel and do better than our ancestors. An improving, if imperfect, civilization. There are some that want to just kill in the name of their god.

What do they have in common? They are not in South America? or Japan?

This is pretty empty rhetoric. Nobody believes all Muslims can integrate into our system of government, though I'd note that of the hundreds of thousands that have only a handful have engaged in religiously motivated criminal behavior.

Really at the heart of this issue is if the issue is about Islam or politics. I'd say more often than not it's about power and religion is used as a tool to consolidate it.

Also, what is it that the regions producing Islamic extremists have in common? Hmmm, let me think...


"what is it that the regions producing Islamic extremists have in common? Hmmm, let me think."

The man in the CA shooting was born here. A couple of the terrorists from France were Belgian nationals, right? Obviously most are from the Middle East, but not all. People Muslims from all countries are getting radicalized.

So tell me, what do all those countries have in common? Seems to me that the only common thread, is that they allow Islam. And quite possibly they shouldn't.

Japan has a wonderful solution to Islam. It's simply not allowed to be practiced on Japan's soil.
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And that is where many nations will end up, eventually. Bill Maher, for once, was right. That religion is the "mother load of bad ideas right now". The only question, is how many innocents will be slaughtered before we decide enough is enough.

And we are supposed to better than that. Though in practice a lot (not all or even most) of followers / believers of Islam is incompatible with the how we live in the USA and our Constitution. I wish it were otherwise.

Unfortunately if you feel that all followers of Islam can and want to peacefully integrate into our system and our laws and our governing, you are mistaken. This is not the fault of everyday Americans or our system of Government. No objective minded thinking person can possibly believe that the major part of the problem is with us, and not the followers of Islam.

"And we are supposed to better than that"

We are better than that. Right now, at this moment, the USA is by far, the best country on Earth to be a Muslim. We are trying to welcome them. It's not working. There isn't a country on the planet where Muslim immigrants aren't causing huge problems.

They have a cancer in their midst, and either they can't or won't deal with it. I think they, the peaceful Muslims, are running out of time. More countries will follow Japan's lead, they have no choice. Our way of life is many things, but I hope it's not a suicide pact.

Imagine for a moment a world with no religion. A world where morals were taught and love was encouraged over hate.

Wouldn't that be nice ?
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"And we are supposed to better than that"

We are better than that. Right now, at this moment, the USA is by far, the best country on Earth to be a Muslim. We are trying to welcome them. It's not working. There isn't a country on the planet where Muslim immigrants aren't causing huge problems.



Thank you for making my point ;)

Imagine for a moment a world with no religion. A world where morals were taught and love was encouraged over hate.

Wouldn't that be nice ?
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A lot of religion is benevolent and not the cause for strife. I am not very religious but I appreciate a lot of people that are - and many that are not.

BUT, for a lot of people, the STATE is the religion and is treated as such and those that oppose the State are the heretics to be squashed.

That is the beauty of this country (moreso in the past) where your freedom and your liberty was above religion and the state. Today, nossomuch

I worship beer
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I'd be a lot more concerned over US passport holders and European passport holders that can just walk in if they're not being watched.

Have to agree with you there, Spence, so I would awesome you'd be in favor
of Rubio's idea to put a temporary hold on visas from mid east countries
and send back those who have overstayed their visa's and vet those who are
left in the US legally. ?????


BTW- have one eye on thr Michigan/Iowa game , Hawkeyes looking
pretty good. Only the 4th Qtr though. :hihi:
See I can still walk and chew gum at the same time. :)

Imagine for a moment a world with no religion. A world where morals were taught and love was encouraged over hate.

Wouldn't that be nice ?
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What RRRRRRR UUUUU smoking?....pass it around.....:)

What RRRRRRR UUUUU smoking?....pass it around.....:)

considering we are pretty much in a holy war right now.... Consider the medication to the sickness
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Have to agree with you there, Spence, so I would awesome you'd be in favor
of Rubio's idea to put a temporary hold on visas from mid east countries
and send back those who have overstayed their visa's and vet those who are
left in the US legally. ?????
I believe the visa process is already being firmed up to some degree. There probably is a legal avenue to further vet people here under new regulations, but does the government have the resources?

Regardless it should be rational and not part of a national freak out. God help us if Trump got elected and made good on 10% of his inflammatory rhetoric...you'll see the issue explode.

considering we are pretty much in a holy war right now....
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how is it that we are in a "holy war" if the islamic terrrorists and radicals represent only a tiny percentage of the religion of peace and, we are told, don't actually represent islam at all?

I believe the visa process is already being firmed up to some degree. There probably is a legal avenue to further vet people here under new regulations, but does the government have the resources?

Regardless it should be rational and not part of a national freak out. God help us if Trump got elected and made good on 10% of his inflammatory rhetoric...you'll see the issue explode.

"you'll see the issue explode"

Funny, I thought the issue exploded on 09/11.

Spence, it is now reported that the female shooter had attended not one, but two Islamic schools in Pakistan, that are being investigated by the Pakistanis because the schools radicalize their students. The schools are so alarming, that the Pakistanis are investigating them. That's the same Pakistan that harbored Bin Laden and still imprisons the doctor who helped us find him. This is not an ally of ours, they aren't likely to share this info with us.

Therefore, the vetting process cannot begin to keep us safe. There is no computer database we can access that will tell us if these people have been radicalized., is there?

I sincerely hope I'm wrong, because I would like to be able to welcome peaceful Muslims who are willing to assimmilate. But I don't see how you can begin to differentiate them from the radicals.

This woman was NOT radicalized here. She was radicalized before she got here, and we didn't come close to catching that, even though she wasn't exactly getting radicalized under the radar.

Unless this vetting process can be significantly improved, and I don't see how it can when these people often come from places that don't have paperwork or computer records, it's a waste of time to try. If there are holes in the vetting process, it stands to reason that the jihadists will intentionally exploit them.

Not good enough.

The one thing you have said that makes any sense, is that Trump cannot get elected.

But we are going to have the conversation, before you and I are gone, about whether or not this religion is compatible with the western way of life. I no longer think it is. And I do not say that lightly, never thought I could ever say that out loud.

We will see more of an uproar from the Muslums in this country over what Donald Trump has said, then we will see from them over the people that have been killed in the name of their religion.
We are seeing the same divisive approach by our president that he used against policeman in this country . Americans are now the bad people, and Muslims the victims .
By the way I think with Donald Trump said was idiotic .
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We will see more of an uproar from the Muslums in this country over what Donald Trump has said, then we will see from them over the people that have been killed in the name of their religion.
We are seeing the same divisive approach by our president that he used against policeman in this country . Americans are now the bad people, and Muslims the victims .
By the way I think with Donald Trump said was idiotic .
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

"We will see more of an uproar from the Muslums in this country over what Donald Trump has said"

Tough crap. Their feelings are getting hurt, our people are getting murdered.

"I think with Donald Trump said was idiotic "

I don't know anymore, I just don't.

Anyone notice that the 'message' has been that background checks don't work when you want a buy a gun, and ironically that the background checks will work just fine for the migrants???

just an observation

Tough crap. Their feelings are getting hurt, our people are getting murdered.

"I think with Donald Trump said was idiotic "

I don't know anymore, I just don't.
In other words, you agree with what he said.

Here's the rub, we can't control let alone defeat terrorism without Muslims at our side. Trump's remarks and your support for them are playing right into ISIS's recruiting strategy.

[QUOTE=spence;1088181]

Here's the rub, we can't control let alone defeat terrorism without Muslims at our side.



i wish they were on our side, where is the outpouring of muslim condemnation and anger directed at isis? maybe it's just me but i haven't heard much more than a bit lip service - not the outrage that one would expect from this peaceful religion.

Here's the rub, we can't control let alone defeat terrorism without Muslims at our side. Trump's remarks and your support for them are playing right into ISIS's recruiting strategy.

What would happen to ISIS's recruiting strategy if ISIS was destroyed?

[QUOTE=spence;1088181]

Here's the rub, we can't control let alone defeat terrorism without Muslims at our side.



i wish they were on our side, where is the outpouring of muslim condemnation and anger directed at isis? maybe it's just me but i haven't heard much more than a bit lip service - not the outrage that one would expect from this peaceful religion.

It would be comforting if the so-called vast majority of moderate Muslims were called upon by their leaders to a jihad against the terrorists of whom it is said are blaspheming their faith. It shouldn't take long for that vast majority to absolutely crush those who are trying to destroy their faith. After all, the rest of the world wouldn't interfere--would even help them.

But, It seems that loud impressive sounding "condemnations" are proclaimed, which, I guess ,is supposed to be enough. I'm wondering what they are condemning them to.

In other words, you agree with what he said.

Here's the rub, we can't control let alone defeat terrorism without Muslims at our side. Trump's remarks and your support for them are playing right into ISIS's recruiting strategy.

"In other words, you agree with what he said.
"

Here's all anyone here needs to now about you and politics. Hilary said she came under sniper fire in Bosnia. You will not say that she lied. I say "I don't know" what to think about Trump, and you know for certain what my intentions are. Have fun explaining that.

I don't know what to think. I do know that I can no longer take a president who, when he sees images of huge piles of dead westerners, thinks the true victims are the muslims that might get taunted, and who thinks the underlying issues are gun control and/or climate change. He is a world-class horse's azz.

"Here's the rub, we can't control let alone defeat terrorism without Muslims at our side"

Here's the other rub. If "Muslims" aren't on our side now, what the f*ck are they waiting for? Who helped the Muslims in Afghanistan fight the invading Soviets? Who helped feed starving Muslims in Somalia? Who freed Muslims in Kuwait? In Afghanistan? In Iraq? The male shooter in California, what country gave him a good middle class job, at a company that threw him and his c*nt wife a baby shower last year?

This religion is based on Mohammed, who was a bloodthirsty, murderous, barbaric thief, someone the Japanese of WWII could really relate to. That's historical fact. He was the exact opposite of Jesus. Not surprising that the religion based on his life, might accurately be described as "satanic." Is there a Muslim country, on the planet at this time, that is at peace within its borders, and with its neighbors? How many Muslim countries are not committed to the destruction of Israel? How many religions stone their women, and mutilate their genitalia?

"Trump's remarks and your support for them are playing right into ISIS's recruiting strategy"

And if you hero listened to any number of military experts who begged him not to withdraw from Iraq, we would not be talking about ISIS today.

All this horebleep about "this plays into their hands". How has being open and hospitable working out, Spence? How has Obama's strategy of appeasement working so far? You tell us!

I don't like Trump. His remarks on Islam are not as idiotic to me, as they would have been last year. Especially compared to the strategy embraced by maybe the only person less up to the task of solving this problem, which is Obama. Maybe that's why I am willing to listen to Trump, because compared to Obama, he doesn't sound so un-hinged anymore.

If the issue is Muslim terrorism, and one guy wants to kick all Muslims out of the country, and the other guy's solution is to get me to drive an electric car, the first guy doesn't seem so stupid all of a sudden.

"In other words, you agree with what he said.
"

Here's all anyone here needs to now about you and politics. Hilary said she came under sniper fire in Bosnia. You will not say that she lied. I say "I don't know" what to think about Trump, and you know for certain what my intentions are. Have fun explaining that.

I don't know what to think. I do know that I can no longer take a president who, when he sees images of huge piles of dead westerners, thinks the true victims are the muslims that might get taunted, and who thinks the underlying issues are gun control and/or climate change. He is a world-class horse's azz.

"Here's the rub, we can't control let alone defeat terrorism without Muslims at our side"

Here's the other rub. If "Muslims" aren't on our side now, what the f*ck are they waiting for? Who helped the Muslims in Afghanistan fight the invading Soviets? Who helped feed starving Muslims in Somalia? Who freed Muslims in Kuwait? In Afghanistan? In Iraq? The male shooter in California, what country gave him a good middle class job, at a company that threw him and his c*nt wife a baby shower last year?

This religion is based on Mohammed, who was a bloodthirsty, murderous, barbaric thief, someone the Japanese of WWII could really relate to. That's historical fact. He was the exact opposite of Jesus. Not surprising that the religion based on his life, might accurately be described as "satanic." Is there a Muslim country, on the planet at this time, that is at peace within its borders, and with its neighbors? How many Muslim countries are not committed to the destruction of Israel? How many religions stone their women, and mutilate their genitalia?

"Trump's remarks and your support for them are playing right into ISIS's recruiting strategy"

And if you hero listened to any number of military experts who begged him not to withdraw from Iraq, we would not be talking about ISIS today.

All this horebleep about "this plays into their hands". How has being open and hospitable working out, Spence? How has Obama's strategy of appeasement working so far? You tell us!

I don't like Trump. His remarks on Islam are not as idiotic to me, as they would have been last year. Especially compared to the strategy embraced by maybe the only person less up to the task of solving this problem, which is Obama. Maybe that's why I am willing to listen to Trump, because compared to Obama, he doesn't sound so un-hinged anymore.

If the issue is Muslim terrorism, and one guy wants to kick all Muslims out of the country, and the other guy's solution is to get me to drive an electric car, the first guy doesn't seem so stupid all of a sudden.

Brutally honest ....Great post
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http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/08/jeh-johnson-holds-press-event-reported-radical-islamic-leader-virginia/

this is great...Obama administration official goes to "moderate" Mosque to condemn Trump and his rhetoric...turns out the Mosque he is condemning Trump from has been investigated for all sorts of ties to Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood...and on...

Trump is riding a wave of folks who trust his foolishness more than they trust leftist stupidity and they are anxious to embrace someone who won't be cowed by political correctness...

it's the swing of the pendulum......payback for 8 years of the worst president in American history who, through the help of his supporters, has lowered the bar and sewn the seeds of discontent, rubbed old wounds raw(as any good community organizer is instructed to do)...using Spence logic...the democrats have created Trump and have played right into his hands:kewl:

every presidential election season the dems and the media scream of the republicans and their candidates..."where's the red meat??"...here you go , a heaping helping...:heybaby:

I don't like Trump...but I can't say I don't and won't enjoy the hair pulling, hand wringing and cackling from the folks that gave us Obama

Anyone notice that the 'message' has been that background checks don't work when you want a buy a gun, and ironically that the background checks will work just fine for the migrants???

just an observation

I know... right???

I know... right???

Hahaha! And there it is
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http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/08/jeh-johnson-holds-press-event-reported-radical-islamic-leader-virginia/

this is great...Obama administration official goes to "moderate" Mosque to condemn Trump and his rhetoric...turns out the Mosque he is condemning Trump from has been investigated for all sorts of ties to Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood...and on...

Trump is riding a wave of folks who trust his foolishness more than they trust leftist stupidity and they are anxious to embrace someone who won't be cowed by political correctness...

it's the swing of the pendulum......payback for 8 years of the worst president in American history who, through the help of his supporters, has lowered the bar and sewn the seeds of discontent, rubbed old wounds raw(as any good community organizer is instructed to do)...using Spence logic...the democrats have created Trump and have played right into his hands:kewl:

every presidential election season the dems and the media scream of the republicans and their candidates..."where's the red meat??"...here you go , a heaping helping...:heybaby:

I don't like Trump...but I can't say I don't and won't enjoy the hair pulling, hand wringing and cackling from the folks that gave us Obama

Very well put. This is totally the back swing of the pendulum.
The thing is.. There is no way that trump will be elected. That is unless the dumbing down of America has reached its final stages ;)
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What would happen to ISIS's recruiting strategy if ISIS was destroyed?

Brilliant! Somebody should relay this to the President.
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Brilliant! Somebody should relay this to the President.
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What's his plan to accomnplish this? To make it harder for law-abiding Americans to buy guns, and to get more people to convert to solar panels? Yessir, that will bring ISIS to their knees before lunch!

Brilliant! Somebody should relay this to the President.
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Yup. Then he and that hugely vast majority of moderate Muslims could finally get together and easily stamp out that really tiny group of radical, extremists who call themselves Muslim but really aren't.

The US government does not want to solve problems. They want to create more problems so we are further dependant on the system ;)
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When Bush stood at th erubble of the twin towers, he got on top of a car, ambraced a foreman, and yelled into a bullhorn "I hear you! America hears you! And soon, the people who knowcked down these towers, will hear from all of us!" He said it, he meant it, and he did it. We can, and shoud, debate how well he dit it, and what he could have done better. Say what you will about him, he said ehwt he felt and he did what he said.

Today, we have Obama. In reference to one massacre after another, he warns us not to be rude to Muslims, to think twice about buying guns, and to use less fossil fuel.

When you put it that way, one of those two guys really looks like an idiot, doesn't he?

The US government does not want to solve problems. They want to create more problems so we are further dependant on the system ;)
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Said the guy who supports, wait for it, Bernie Sanders. Because Bernie the socialist will reduce dependency on the system?

I didn't say I was against it ;)
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Or at least, I didn't say I am against Bernies agenda.
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Very well put. This is totally the back swing of the pendulum.
The thing is.. There is no way that trump will be elected. That is unless the dumbing down of America has reached its final stages ;)
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Actually, the dumbing down of America has been occurring for several years under socialist policies which create an environment in which individual responsibility is diminished, even ridiculed, in favor of government aid. Policies which create a climate of thought in which solving personal problems becomes too difficult without government intervention. Policies which entitle Americans to growing lists of government help and handouts which in turn transforms growing numbers of Americans who become convinced there is no embarrassment or indignity in being given the handouts. And who then not only believe they are owed the gifts which they now demand, but who then are taught that the gifts actually give them dignity. At which point they have been dumbed down to believing that their sustenance and dignity depends on the largesse of government.

The final stages of the dumbing down of America will more easily be achieved with the election of Bernie Sanders. From there, we can evolve, or descend, into further degradations of actual individual freedom and dignity.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/08/jeh-johnson-holds-press-event-reported-radical-islamic-leader-virginia/

this is great...Obama administration official goes to "moderate" Mosque to condemn Trump and his rhetoric...turns out the Mosque he is condemning Trump from has been investigated for all sorts of ties to Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood...and on...

Trump is riding a wave of folks who trust his foolishness more than they trust leftist stupidity and they are anxious to embrace someone who won't be cowed by political correctness...

it's the swing of the pendulum......payback for 8 years of the worst president in American history who, through the help of his supporters, has lowered the bar and sewn the seeds of discontent, rubbed old wounds raw(as any good community organizer is instructed to do)...using Spence logic...the democrats have created Trump and have played right into his hands:kewl:

every presidential election season the dems and the media scream of the republicans and their candidates..."where's the red meat??"...here you go , a heaping helping...:heybaby:

I don't like Trump...but I can't say I don't and won't enjoy the hair pulling, hand wringing and cackling from the folks that gave us Obama

I don't care for Trump either, but I am glad he's in the race (thus far), here's why...his presence on that stage is increasing debate audiences by millions and millions. Tons of people are watching on TV just to see what he might do. Some of those people, who only tuned in for Trump, will hear Carson, or Cruz, or Rubio, and think, "hey, that guy doesn't hate everybody like Obama and NBC claim. He sounds smart to me, I'll give him a listen". That's a good thing, as long as he doesn't stick around TOO long.

If Bernie is elected what will the new flag look like?.....your president thought he was an advocate for gun control....in reality he has been the best advocate for the purchasing of guns, can not keep guns on gun shop shelves....as far as banning people on the no fly list over 40% of the 70 thousand on the list do not belong on it....Ted Kennedy, John Lewis(senator) and a couple of US news reporters was on it.....if U get a one way ticket to go to a foreign country U may end up on the no fly list....what some people do not know when purchasing a gun U R checked by the feds and they also check the no fly list included in that check...:)

That's a good thing, as long as he doesn't stick around TOO long.

And your argument above is very reasoned for getting the message out, but what mechanism is there to get rid of him from the race? The most inflammatory things he says INCREASE his poll numbers, even when false (i.e. 1000's in Jersey city, NJ)

The most inflammatory things he says INCREASE his poll numbers, even when false (i.e. 1000's in Jersey city, NJ)

Déjà vu from several years ago
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And your argument above is very reasoned for getting the message out, but what mechanism is there to get rid of him from the race? The most inflammatory things he says INCREASE his poll numbers, even when false (i.e. 1000's in Jersey city, NJ)

Are his poll numbers at an all-time high?

The mechanism to get him out, i sthat 75% of GOP voters want someone else. Problem is, now, there are too many alternatives to Trump. As some drop out, the "non Trump vote" will consolidate around 1 or 2 candidates, he will falter and, eventually, fail. I hope.

If Bernie is elected what will the new flag look like?.....your president thought he was an advocate for gun control....in reality he has been the best advocate for the purchasing of guns, can not keep guns on gun shop shelves....as far as banning people on the no fly list over 40% of the 70 thousand on the list do not belong on it....Ted Kennedy, John Lewis(senator) and a couple of US news reporters was on it.....if U get a one way ticket to go to a foreign country U may end up on the no fly list....what some people do not know when purchasing a gun U R checked by the feds and they also check the no fly list included in that check...:)


Psssst. Bernie is pro gun. :wave:
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The K-1 visa is actually supposed to be pretty hard to get through. Even have to provide police records from every place you've lived since age 16. You also have no idea if she was radicalized before she came, you're just making assumptions at this point.


And now I think we know the answer...

https://gma.yahoo.com/san-bernardino-shooters-radicalized-started-dating-fbi-says-153950922--abc-news-topstories.html#

And now I think we know the answer...

https://gma.yahoo.com/san-bernardino-shooters-radicalized-started-dating-fbi-says-153950922--abc-news-topstories.html#

Spence is proven wrong only a little less often than Obama . At least in this thread 😊
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Are his poll numbers at an all-time high?

The mechanism to get him out, i sthat 75% of GOP voters want someone else. Problem is, now, there are too many alternatives to Trump. As some drop out, the "non Trump vote" will consolidate around 1 or 2 candidates, he will falter and, eventually, fail. I hope.

We'll see.
It will be a game of chicken to see who drops out, and if it happens in time. All assuming Trump doesn't go third party.

We'll see.
It will be a game of chicken to see who drops out, and if it happens in time. All assuming Trump doesn't go third party.

Howard Dean was in the hunt on your side, early on, as I recall. Like Trump, he's a little funny in the head. Though not as overtly bombastic as Trump, though not by all that much, either. When Dean was running, he said that if he won, he would consider having the FCC breakup Foxnews. That's a wee bit fascist.

Psssst. Bernie is pro gun. :wave:
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did not mention or ask if bernie was pro gun....only mentioned your current president about guns....

Under obama's watch in 2012 a secret policy that barred federal agents from looking at social media post for visa applicants...this policy still stands today....they bar agents but employers R allowed to check U out on social media when applying for a job....durrrr.....:)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3359604/Secret-U-S-policy-prevented-immigration-officials-reviewing-visa-applicants-social-media.html

Under obama's watch in 2012 a secret policy that barred federal agents from looking at social media post for visa applicants...this policy still stands today....they bar agents but employers R allowed to check U out on social media when applying for a job....durrrr.....:)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3359604/Secret-U-S-policy-prevented-immigration-officials-reviewing-visa-applicants-social-media.html
This appears to be another story being blown out of proportion.

When an employer checks you out on social media all they can do is potentially view public posts like this one. The killers from California apparently did not make any public remarks on social media about jihad or martyrdom, so there's no way the VISA background checks would have caught it anyway.

This appears to be another story being blown out of proportion.

When an employer checks you out on social media all they can do is potentially view public posts like this one. The killers from California apparently did not make any public remarks on social media about jihad or martyrdom, so there's no way the VISA background checks would have caught it anyway.


but the moron isis guy who posted a photo on FB in front of his headquarters sure did some good as in less than 48 hours the place was blown off the face of the earth. trouble is they announced it instead of keeping it quiet so they and the media would not tip off the enemy from more stupidity.

but the moron isis guy who posted a photo on FB in front of his headquarters sure did some good as in less than 48 hours the place was blown off the face of the earth. trouble is they announced it instead of keeping it quiet so they and the media would not tip off the enemy from more stupidity.
Or the Russian soldier forgetting his selfies in Ukraine had location data :doh:

Under obama's watch in 2012 a secret policy that barred federal agents from looking at social media post for visa applicants...this policy still stands today....they bar agents but employers R allowed to check U out on social media when applying for a job....durrrr.....:)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3359604/Secret-U-S-policy-prevented-immigration-officials-reviewing-visa-applicants-social-media.html

Teachers lose jobs , cops lose jobs
Politicians lose jobs all because of posts on social media . I bet if you go adopt a pet, you are vetted and checked out on social media .
I can't imagine why it would be OK to grab peoples phone records but not look at their Facebook .
But then again I still don't understand why you don't need an ID to vote .
This one baffles me too.
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I can't imagine why it would be OK to grab peoples phone records but not look at their Facebook .

To grab someone's phone records requires a court order. I don't know if you've ever used Facebook but you'd have to hack into their account, get a warrant or friend them to see anything. That's why this is pretty silly.

How many VISA applicant wannabe jihadis do you think are on open forums like S-B using their real names?

To grab someone's phone records requires a court order. I don't know if you've ever used Facebook but you'd have to hack into their account, get a warrant or friend them to see anything. That's why this is pretty silly.

How many VISA applicant wannabe jihadis do you think are on open forums like S-B using their real names?

Which is why it is not unreasonable to suggest a moratorium on immigration. We have had moratoriums (long ones) in the past. We are going to great difficulty to create a fallible process of importing a huge number of refugees into our already over populated economy and social network and safety net, all at the expense and danger to the rest of us. We are going through hoops and pinholes to fight a world wide PR war, and are half-heartedly going about the destruction of the cause for that war.

If it requires a reset of who we are, an Obama transformation, and we cannot defeat the enemy with all-out war, then better to become disentangled with the whole mess and let the rest of the world sort itself out.

To grab someone's phone records requires a court order. I don't know if you've ever used Facebook but you'd have to hack into their account, get a warrant or friend them to see anything. That's why this is pretty silly.

How many VISA applicant wannabe jihadis do you think are on open forums like S-B using their real names?

If you think the only people that have access to your Facebook info are your "friends" , you are living in a fantasy world .
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Which is why it is not unreasonable to suggest a moratorium on immigration. We have had moratoriums (long ones) in the past. We are going to great difficulty to create a fallible process of importing a huge number of refugees into our already over populated economy and social network and safety net, all at the expense and danger to the rest of us. We are going through hoops and pinholes to fight a world wide PR war, and are half-heartedly going about the destruction of the cause for that war.

If it requires a reset of who we are, an Obama transformation, and we cannot defeat the enemy with all-out war, then better to become disentangled with the whole mess and let the rest of the world sort itself out.
I think we allow close to 100,000 refugees per year, so 10,000 isn't exactly a surge. Recently I read the US ranks #14 in amount of refugees taken, so it'a not exactly like we're shouldering the brunt of the load.

The process isn't being created, it already exists and it's not easy. Say 18 months + and I don't believe under international law you get to choose what country you're sent to.

I'm not sure what a moratorium would accomplish beyond just subjecting more people to terrorism.

If you think the only people that have access to your Facebook info are your "friends" , you are living in a fantasy world .
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Like who? Name names.

Like who? Name names.

I can't divulge that ...it's classified ;)
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I can't divulge that ...it's classified ;)
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I didn't think so either.

I didn't think so either.

How about Mark Zuckerberg , his company and anybody that has a few dollars to buy some of the information that they harvest from your page

Hell you don't even own the photos that you post up there .

Does it ever dawn on you, when you see the advertisements pop up on your newsfeed , how timely they are with events in your life and the things that you enjoy .

Do you seriously think that's just a coincidence ?

You are a funny guy
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I think we allow close to 100,000 refugees per year, so 10,000 isn't exactly a surge. Recently I read the US ranks #14 in amount of refugees taken, so it'a not exactly like we're shouldering the brunt of the load.

On top of the 100,000+ Syrians entered here since 2012?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/12/16/as-lawmakers-clash-over-refugees-syrian-immigration-quietly-tops-100000-since/


The process isn't being created, it already exists and it's not easy. Say 18 months + and I don't believe under international law you get to choose what country you're sent to.

Are you forgetting one of your favorite causes for process snafu, the ever-present "systemic failure"? Benghazi, police depts., etc.

I'm not sure what a moratorium would accomplish beyond just subjecting more people to terrorism.

Wha . . .? I didn't know that they were being subjected to terrorism in the refugee camps.

Like who? Name names.

Kevin Bacon....

You're within 6 degrees of him on facebook....

I can just hear him Sizzle


but.... http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/ravenob1/cant.png

How about Mark Zuckerberg , his company and anybody that has a few dollars to buy some of the information that they harvest from your page

Hell you don't even own the photos that you post up there .

Does it ever dawn on you, when you see the advertisements pop up on your newsfeed , how timely they are with events in your life and the things that you enjoy .

Do you seriously think that's just a coincidence ?

You are a funny guy
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Next you're going to be telling me my bank knows exactly how much money in my checking account...like to the penny.

Internet marketing has more to do with the cookies created by product searches or specific product websites that anything else. It's not like someone talking about the metaphysical implications of jihad on Facebook is going to start seeing an "Amazon Pipe Bomb Special" show up in their feed.

[QUOTE=spence;1088850]Next you're going to be telling me my bank knows exactly how much money in my checking account...like to the penny.QUOTE]

Spence....U must just do on line banking...when U go into a bank infront of a teller to cash a check from whom ever they look at your checking account, they C how much U have in your account in order to cover the check U R cashing....:)

Sarcasm.

Good grief
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Next you're going to be telling me my bank knows exactly how much money in my checking account...like to the penny.

Internet marketing has more to do with the cookies created by product searches or specific product websites that anything else. It's not like someone talking about the metaphysical implications of jihad on Facebook is going to start seeing an "Amazon Pipe Bomb Special" show up in their feed.

Brilliant comparison ! You are a sharp one 😊
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Has the vetting process been reduced to three months?

http://mediamatters.org/video/2016/04/07/fox-host-claims-that-america-has-helped-enough/209814

Despite the prevailing stereotypes of Muslim Americans, Islam has contributed a great deal to the U.S. In fact, Muslims have played an integral part in defending the homeland and fighting for the American government’s geopolitical interests. The history of Muslim Americans serving in the U.S. military challenges the widespread skepticism that Americans have for those who follow Islam. Muslims are asked by Prophet Muhammad to “love your country as [patriotism] is part of Islam.” The Qur’an (4:60) calls on Muslims to be obedient to their governments: “O you who believe, obey God and the Prophet and obey those in authority from among you.” As I discuss in this piece, Muslims have heeded the Prophet’s call for allegiance and shown love for America.

Muslims served in the U.S. military under the command of General George Washington, who was Commander in Chief of the Continental Army during the American War for Independence. Rosters of soldiers serving in Washington’s Army lists names like Bampett Muhammad, who fought for the Virginia Line between the years 1775 and 1783. Another Again it seems many love to focus on the minority not the majority ...

one of Washington’s soldiers, Yusuf Ben Ali, was a North African Arab who worked as an aide to General Thomas Sumter of South Carolina. Peter Buckminster, who fought in Boston, is perhaps Washington’s most distinguished Muslim American soldier. Buckminster fired the gun that killed British Major General John Pitcairn at the Battle of Bunker Hill. Years after this famous battle, Peter changed his last name to “Salaam,” the Arabic word meaning “peace.” Peter Salaam later reenlisted in the Continental Army to serve in the Battle of Saratoga and the Battle of Stony Point. If Washington had a problem with Muslims serving in his Army, he would not have allowed Muhammad, Ali and Salaam to represent and serve non-Muslim Americans. By giving these Muslims the honor of serving America, Washington made it clear that a person did not have to be of a certain religion or have a particular ethnic background to be an American patriot.

And these Contributions to America are still happening to this day from all walks of life.. step back from the emoting and Fear and look at the big picture..

I dont understand killings in the name of Islam is some how different from Killings blamed on MH issues or Racial motivated Mass Murder .. when the latter happens far more frequently Here in the US .. they are all unacceptable ... And we all have far less control over theses events then we'll acknowledge

Despite the prevailing stereotypes of Muslim Americans, Islam has contributed a great deal to the U.S. In fact, Muslims have played an integral part in defending the homeland and fighting for the American government’s geopolitical interests. The history of Muslim Americans serving in the U.S. military challenges the widespread skepticism that Americans have for those who follow Islam. Muslims are asked by Prophet Muhammad to “love your country as [patriotism] is part of Islam.” The Qur’an (4:60) calls on Muslims to be obedient to their governments: “O you who believe, obey God and the Prophet and obey those in authority from among you.” As I discuss in this piece, Muslims have heeded the Prophet’s call for allegiance and shown love for America.

Muslims served in the U.S. military under the command of General George Washington, who was Commander in Chief of the Continental Army during the American War for Independence. Rosters of soldiers serving in Washington’s Army lists names like Bampett Muhammad, who fought for the Virginia Line between the years 1775 and 1783. Another Again it seems many love to focus on the minority not the majority ...

one of Washington’s soldiers, Yusuf Ben Ali, was a North African Arab who worked as an aide to General Thomas Sumter of South Carolina. Peter Buckminster, who fought in Boston, is perhaps Washington’s most distinguished Muslim American soldier. Buckminster fired the gun that killed British Major General John Pitcairn at the Battle of Bunker Hill. Years after this famous battle, Peter changed his last name to “Salaam,” the Arabic word meaning “peace.” Peter Salaam later reenlisted in the Continental Army to serve in the Battle of Saratoga and the Battle of Stony Point. If Washington had a problem with Muslims serving in his Army, he would not have allowed Muhammad, Ali and Salaam to represent and serve non-Muslim Americans. By giving these Muslims the honor of serving America, Washington made it clear that a person did not have to be of a certain religion or have a particular ethnic background to be an American patriot.

And these Contributions to America are still happening to this day from all walks of life.. step back from the emoting and Fear and look at the big picture..

I dont understand killings in the name of Islam is some how different from Killings blamed on MH issues or Racial motivated Mass Murder .. when the latter happens far more frequently Here in the US .. they are all unacceptable ... And we all have far less control over theses events then we'll acknowledge

Sure, so long as Muslims are a small minority, they will, for the most part, be "patriots" of sorts. Many of them would either be "moderate" Muslims who don't really adhere strictly, or who, if they adhere at all, do it very loosely, to all the Quranic texts. This is just as true for Christians or Jews who are "moderate" in their beliefs. But note what happens to countries when Muslims are in control. And look at what happens when the picture of the "small minority" of so-called extremist or fundamentalist or radical Muslims are not paid enough attention because the big picture of moderate Islam paints a comforting, and fundamentally false, interpretation of Islam.

Muslims are actually allowed, when they are a minority, as a matter of their faith to deceive those in power--referred to as taqiyya. Washington may have had a problem if he had ordered the Muslims to kill invading Muslim regiments.

As for the citation of Quran 4:60, I found this:

[4:60] O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey His Messenger and those who are in authority among you. And if you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you are believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and most commendable in the end.
[4:60] اے وہ لوگو جو ایمان لائے ہو! اللہ کی اطاعت کرو اور رسول کی اطاعت کرو اور اپنے حکام کی بھی۔ اور اگر تم کسی معاملہ میں (اُولُوالامر سے) اختلاف کرو تو ایسے معاملے اللہ اور رسول کی طرف لَوٹا دیا کرو اگر (فی الحقیقت) تم اللہ پر اور یومِ آخر پر ایمان لانے والے ہو۔ یہ بہت بہتر (طریق) ہے اور انجام کے لحاظ سے بہت اچھا ہے۔

The attached interpretations of this verse make it clear that the phrase "who are in authority among you," or in other translations "authority over you," has not been properly understood by some. Most translators understand it to mean "from among yourselves" which means you should obey only that authority which happens to be from among yourselves, meaning Muslim authority alone.

I could not copy the interpretation entries which are far more detailed, but the url, which also is: https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=532&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2

Also, via islamicstudies.info, there is the Sunna 4:60 with its explanation:

(4:60) "(O Messenger!) Have you not seen those who claim to believe in the Book which has been revealed to you and in the Books revealed before you, and yet desire to submit their disputes to the judgement of taghut (the Satanic authorities who decide independently of the Law of Allah), whereas they had been asked to reject it.91 And Satan seeks to make them drift far away from the right way."
The added interpretation: "Taghut clearly signifies here a sovereign who judges things according to criteria other than the law of God. It also stands for a legal and judicial system which acknowledges neither the sovereignty of God nor the paramount authority of the Book of God. This verse categorically proclaims that to refer disputes to the judgement of a court of law which is essentially taghut contravenes the dictates of a believer's faith. In fact, true faith in God and His Book necessarily requires that a man should refuse to recognize the legitimacy of such courts. According to the Qur'an, belief in God necessitates repudiation of the authority of taghut. To try to submit both to God and to taghut at the same time is hypocrisy.

Both sources indicate that the Quran's notion of believers obeying their governments refers to governments that are in accordance to the commands of Allah. Which would be the commandments given in the Quran or the Sunna or the Hadith. In other words, governments that are Islamic in nature.

So the quote you cite, taken out of quranic context, and outside of Islamic law, is very misleading. Actually, the interpretation given by your source to the Quran 4:60 is the opposite of how Islamic scholars interpret the verse.

Both sources are legitimate pro-Islamic scholarship "experts"--al Islam, the official website of the Amadiyyah Muslim Community, and Islamicstudies.info.

2016 and the Muslims are now finally getting around taking over the world!!!!!

If you think theses extremist are a recent development in world history you guys need to get out more :sleeps:

2016 and the Muslims are now finally getting around taking over the world!!!!!

If you think theses extremist are a recent development in world history you guys need to get out more :sleeps:

Is there a point to your sarcastic rant?

Is there a point to your sarcastic rant?


No ... just shorter than yours thats all

No ... just shorter than yours thats all

:bgi:

No ... just shorter than yours thats all

when you subtract the quotes and opinions of other sources in mine, it is not longer than your first post to which I was responding. I didn't consider your first post to be a rant because it wasn't an extravagant or unreasonable declamation.

I responded in a similar rational, reasonable manner backed by quotes and interpretations of Islamic scholars. I pointed out that "the quote you cite, taken out of quranic context, and outside of Islamic law, is very misleading. Actually, the interpretation given by your source to the Quran 4:60 is the opposite of how Islamic scholars interpret the verse."

Given as that your quote from the Quran was a key element to your post, I thought that my response reasonably refuted the basis of your argument. I believe my post made that point well. And it is part of a much larger point that we uncritically accept laudatory statements about Islam or false interpretations of the Quran by those who want us to believe Islam is something that it isn't. Or who may actually want to believe what they tell us. Or who may intentionally be trying to deceive us.

Now you respond in this post by admitting that your previous one was indeed a rant and did not, actually, have a point. Well done.

BTW, in another thread I asked you if it would be OK if we imposed the same requirements on voting as we do on gun ownership. Would you be good with that?

when you subtract the quotes and opinions of other sources in mine, it is not longer than your first post to which I was responding. I didn't consider your first post to be a rant because it wasn't an extravagant or unreasonable declamation.

I responded in a similar rational, reasonable manner backed by quotes and interpretations of Islamic scholars. I pointed out that "the quote you cite, taken out of quranic context, and outside of Islamic law, is very misleading. Actually, the interpretation given by your source to the Quran 4:60 is the opposite of how Islamic scholars interpret the verse."


Isn't that the whole issue with Islam? its those interpretations and the people who do these interpretations.



Given as that your quote from the Quran was a key element to your post, an assumption on your part my point is Muslim Americans have contributed much and have died defending this country and other Americans wish to ignore this basic fact


I thought that my response reasonably refuted the basis of your argument. I believe my post made that point well. And it is part of a much larger point that we uncritically accept laudatory statements about Islam or false interpretations of the Quran by those who want us to believe Islam is something that it isn't. Or who may actually want to believe what they tell us. Or who may intentionally be trying to deceive us.

^^^^^ classic Muslim Bigotry those who want us to believe Islam is something that it isn't. intentionally be trying to deceive us is this political or a religious feeling of yours? ^^^^^^^^^^

Now you respond in this post by admitting that your previous one was indeed a rant and did not, actually, have a point. Well done.

Sorry never admitted anything just kinda para phrased what you think
that islam is taking over the world

BTW, in another thread I asked you if it would be OK if we imposed the same requirements on voting as we do on gun ownership. Would you be good with that?

No not until voting can kill or be used in violent crime or you can use it in Home defense or warfare

an assumption on your part my point is Muslim Americans have contributed much and have died defending this country and other Americans wish to ignore this basic fact



name one :)

name one :)

How many times does he have to recite , without giving any credit, the Huffpost article ?
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name one :)
Why don't you go for a walk through Arlington and see for yourself. Pass out some Trump hats while your at it.

Why don't you go for a walk through Arlington and see for yourself. Pass out some Trump hats while your at it.

I was just going to recommend going there as well. Plenty of markers there with the Islam symbol.
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Arlington is a moving experience,many members of today's military cringe when they think of Hillary as commander in chief. I am sure a Trump hat would be welcome as he respects our veterans. Conversely, anything to do with Hillary would be respectfully tolerated.
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Just about every person I know who's a vet or current military are pro Sanders. They want someone in office who isn't a hawk and makes logical decisions based on right or wrong and not based on who makes the most money off of it.
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Piemma is the exception. :rotfl:
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And yet the veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan seem to support Trump. Maybe being drafted made the difference in some., especially the ones who didn't want to be there.

http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/veterans-group-makes-a-huge-announcement-about-donald-trump-john-mccain-controversy/
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Why don't you go for a walk through Arlington and see for yourself. Pass out some Trump hats while your at it.

"Americans wish to ignore this basic fact"...... I was asking him to name one of these....



I don't like Trump....

Quotes in red by wdmso
Quotes in black responses by detbuch

Isn't that the whole issue with Islam? its those interpretations and the people who do these interpretations.

In relativism, that is the issue with all perception, not just Islam. If you're a relativist, which you seem to be, certainly seem to be concerning the Constitution, the issue is merely a matter of interpretation. But those who created the Constitution did not intend to make a document which depended on relativistic points of view. Law is peculiar in that respect. It cannot function as an opinion. It must be universal. Otherwise everyone would be a law unto himself. As well, he who created Islam did not intend to institute a free-for-all system of rules and beliefs. He made LAW. And he claimed that Allah dictated that law to him.

The Constitutional Founders and early Constitutional jurists made clear what the Constitution meant. But our latter day relativists have turned the original meaning upside down and created, out of personal, relativistic points of views, a different document. One which, due to the manner it has been created, really is not to be depended on beyond the moment, and will surely be changed with the next waves of personal opinions.

And Muhammad's words and actions made clear that Islam was not to be some co-existent mode, but a universal law expanded to all people by conversion either through persuasion or force. And Islam's latter day apologists, probably because the command to make Islam the law of the world is not feasible, at least not yet, are claiming to "reform" it into something it is not.

That's fine. When the Sultans, Sheiks, and Imams of Saudi Arabia, and the grand clerics of Iran truly convert to this tolerant notion of Islam, to transform it into merely a personal religion which is practiced on an equal basis with other beliefs, then most of us who view Islam as a threat will no longer do so.

an assumption on your part my point is Muslim Americans have contributed much and have died defending this country and other Americans wish to ignore this basic fact

I said that your quote from the Quran was A key element to your post. I wasn't assuming it was your whole point. And I pointed out how that quote was misinterpreted by your source, and that the quote actually meant the opposite of what your source "interpreted." If you wish to sweep that under the rug and move on . . . I understand.

But you move on a little too far when you state that "other" Americans wish to ignore Muslim American sacrifices. There is no mass call to deport Muslim American citizens or to hate them. But their personal sacrifices do not negate the incompatibility of Islam with our system of government.


^^^^^ classic Muslim Bigotry those who want us to believe Islam is something that it isn't. intentionally be trying to deceive us is this political or a religious feeling of yours? ^^^^^^^^^^

It is not a "feeling" on my part. BTW, I notice you intentionally left out the other provision I listed: "Or who may actually want to believe what they tell us." That third option is a recognition of sincerity on the part of many Muslims who believe their "religion" is a peaceful, co-existential one. In their minds either it has always been so, or, for them, it has been reformed. I hope they can sincerely keep that "point of view" and entirely practice it the rest of their lives and immerse their children on that view.

But, as I said, it is not a "feeling" on my part. It is a rational conclusion based on study. Even though I am not a lawyer or part of a left or right leaning "non partisan" institute, I know how to study. And my studies were not limited to solely anti-Muslim bigots. They were mostly informed by Islamic scholars, Islamic websites, and the nature of present day Islamic States.

Sorry never admitted anything just kinda para phrased what you think that islam is taking over the world

You said: "No ... just shorter than yours thats all" I don't see any kind of Para phrasing there regarding Islam taking over the world. You were responding to my asking if there was a point to your sarcastic rant. So, your answer "No" is admitting that there was no point to your sarcastic rant. And "shorter than yours" would imply that mine was also a rant. Which is an admission that yours was a rant as well, just shorter.

Now if I was to guess that was a paraphrase of my thinking that Islam is taking over the world, I don't see how I was to guess that.

And besides, I never said that I thought Islam is taking over the whole world. I said that fundamental Islamic doctrine requires that "taking over" as you put it.

BTW, in another thread I asked you if it would be OK if we imposed the same requirements on voting as we do on gun ownership. Would you be good with that?

No not until voting can kill or be used in violent crime or you can use it in Home defense or warfare

Well, actually, voting can be used for all those things. It can be used to promote the death penalty. To abort babies, even fully formed ones. It can be used to promote those who advocate the crime of eliminating our unalienable rights, even to the point of totally abandoning and replacing the Constitution without amendment or due process, which does great violence to our freedoms. It certainly can be used to elect those who advocate defense or warfare.

But, as I clearly stated, which you refuse to consider, or are unable to comprehend, the right to bear arms is an unalienable right NOT TO BE ABRIDGED as given in the Bill of Rights. There is no guarantee in the Constitution that voting cannot be abridged or regulated in some ways as decided by the States.

So why do you advocate for stricter gun laws than we already have (and which already have abridged the right to bear arms) even though they are far, far more restrictive than voting regulations, but you favor far less restrictive voting laws than we have.

And yes. Voting is a weapon that can be used for greater good or evil than owning a firearm.