Anyone have any thoughts or input? I'm considering one additional build, an 11'.

I think BillyD has one in the works
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hopefully he will respond

Yes I do. 10' Infinity. Primarily used on the sand. VS150. Single foot KL-H reduction guides, KT runners. Thought of doing a 25L,12 H, 7L to KB 6 runners. Decided to use K25H, K12H K8M,KT 8 runnners for a practical reason as it still needs to perform in the surf when weeded up and re stringing at night . Eyesight s#cks. Haven't set up the guides as of yet.

i had come up with the same two layouts and was going to go with the 25-12-8m-kt8 for the same reason. Still toying around with it. I need another rod like I need another hole in my head but I'm in NJ and will have a chance to p/u a blank that I won't be able to get realistically otherwise. Thanks for the input.

What weight rod and what size reel/braid?

The easiest/cheapest is exactly what you've specified, KLH25-12-8m-8's. I've done this on rods 8.5-11 feet and been happy. You need to be careful in transport, however. I've also done 20H-10H-8m- 8KT runners and it works well.

The RV guides offer a double foot option but at an awful price ($180-320 for a set without tip)
RV25-RV16-KWm10-whatever runners is reportedly very good. I'm about to build this layout on a 10' rod (whose recipient is afraid of singles).

For years I've used Titanium LC20 (or 16M) followed by LC 12m- Lc10-kw/kt runners with good success. The collector does go pretty far out the rod but the rods cast well and are very light.

There is a 4th option that I have not tried. It uses a KW 30 (H?) collector followed by single foot transition chain of KL20-KL12- runners. For big reels and heavy braid it might be worth testing casting this option.....but again I've not tried it.

The problem with building one of these layouts, particularly if you use titanium, is that you will soon find you need to rewrap all your other rods as you won't be able to stand to look at them, never mind fish them.

George I've been on the fence with the RV guides waiting for SS frame. Last year I built a 1087 FSC for a friend w/titanium tip to collector. RV 25, 16, K12M, KT8 runners and an Arowana ti tip. Extremely light and nice looking but "too" rich for my blood. Nonetheless rod casts amazing and responsive tip. I figure I'll do the Infinity rod with single reduction and if I decide, I'll to change when the S'S RV ' S are available.

the rod would potentially be a odm nex1 11 3/4-4, reel would be vs200/zb25, braid, don't know, 30 or 40. Ti is out for this build. I have torzite on several rods, very nice, very pricey. It's just not in the budget for this one.

I do like the possible kw30-kl20...., hadn't considered that but I definitely will.

I don't have too much of a problem with single foots, like stated above, transport probably being the biggest risk.

I s/b able to get out today and look at blanks. If I pull the trigger on the blank then I will probably try one of the above layouts and see how it works.

thanks for hte input

George I've been on the fence with the RV guides waiting for SS frame. Last year I built a 1087 FSC for a friend w/titanium tip to collector. RV 25, 16, K12M, KT8 runners and an Arowana ti tip. .

I wish I could get an Arowana Titanium tip in a 10 and 11 tube/8 or 10 ring to try and diminish tip catching on the backswing but as far as I can tell they stop at size 8 tube.

I have an arowana tip on a light 7' acid wrapped conventional rod and the line seems to catch the tip QUITE often. So much so that I probably wouldn't use another.
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I do like the possible kw30-kl20...., hadn't considered that but I definitely will.



I think my post is incorrect. As you mention I think the reduction is KW 30 (H?) to plain KL20-KL12, not KLH 20/10 as I described. The height to the bottom of the KLH ring is higher than the bottom of the KW30H so it wouldn't work.

The layout was described by ZA fisher over on SOL (he's quite sharp).
Here is his quote (but I'm not sure if he uses a KW30 or KW30H)

"8's are fine if you have no weed. (use them myself)
Don't like KW30 to KW20 though, not because of over choking, but because the KW20 is low and I find you need to push it out further for a neat bullseye to the choke.
You end up with, to my mind a too large gap between the KW30 and KW20.
KW30 to KL20 to KL12 is a different story - works like a charm with the KL20 and KL12 being quite a bit taller than their KW counterparts.
But you have to be comfortable with single foot guides"

well, looks like i will try it out...

guides ordered, will start it next week.

guides ordered, will start it next week.

guides on back order - ugghh

starting a 120l in the meantime

Drew , what's guides were back ordered? Mudhole?

Great info here , thanks
Starting the process for a 120 1m

While I think of it, a FYI , found it helpful to use the camera eye of my cell to look down thru reduction to see where it hits the (colector ?)

Drew , what's guides were back ordered? Mudhole?

getbit, mudhole also had a good number of them out of stock tho. the email that i received said they hoped it would ship next week (this coming week) but nothing definite.

still waiting on the guides for this...

I see MH is out of stock on the RV16. Plus my order was delayed do to weather en route to Pa.

120L that i'm working on in the meantime

rest

Drew that's very nice. Like the underwrap like that for LC AND K guides. Your single accent thread is it weaved ?

just a single inlay of thread.

i'm hoping to get the guides (all but 2 of them) on monday. i'm off tuesday but the storm will probably prevent me from test casting until the weekend.

What guides you waiting for?

pretty much all of them. it s/b delivered tomorrow according to usps tracking. i was going to try 2 setups - kl25-12-8m... and kw30-kl20... the 20 is still on backorder though. i won't get to test cast until next weekend at this point.

120l in progress...

last

I haven't finished the set up on mine but the guides KL25h, KL12h, KL8M, kt8's. In the middle wrapping a VT 4-8 .

I haven't finished the set up on mine but the guides KL25h, KL12h, KL8M, kt8's. In the middle wrapping a VT 4-8 .

that's what i was going to try, if/when they ever get here.

FINALLY got most of the guides today, at least the ones to do a kl25-12-8.... I was mildly concerned that the 25 wouldn't work but the top of the ring as well as the bottom are higher than a kw30. I thought it would be lower and not work. So sunday is the day to test cast and hopefully get it to work.

the sent me the wrong guide(kw) - order a 30, received a 30L...

I laid out the KLH25, 12 8M. Reel shaft to choke KT 8 @ 52". Line from top guides put the KL25H 15.5" from the 12 and the 8M 8.5". I gonna pull the 12 back to create a parabolic bend in line and test both ways. I don't like the long space in the second transition guide to help reduce line coils and chatter. I'm using a VR 150 reel.

FINALLY got most of the guides today, at least the ones to do a kl25-12-8.... I was mildly concerned that the 25 wouldn't work but the top of the ring as well as the bottom are higher than a kw30. I thought it would be lower and not work. So sunday is the day to test cast and hopefully get it to work.

the sent me the wrong guide(kw) - order a 30, received a 30L...

Picked up a Gosa 6K to go with a GSB1201m yesterday, phyced

Mud hole's sight has been down, looking at Getbit....

Thinking KR with KW'S,,, I'm tough on rods

Good info above here, thanks

http://anglersresource.net/Portals/anglersresource/Heightchart.pdf

tomorrow's snow is going to put a damper on things, looking at tues now for test casting. maybe i can get this thing done for the fall at this point...

Don't feel bad Drew, I have 3 to test and thankfully I can build the butts and buttwrap waiting for spring. Geez Louise this spring week will still be COLD!!!

probably going to give it a try later today. i'd like to get this darn thing started.

i was able to get some casting in today. i tried a couple of methods for the spacing and didn't like any of them. i basically put the guides where i thought they should go.

the blank is a odm nex1, 11', 3/4-4oz. reel was a vsx200. the layout was kl25h-12h-8m-kt8(x5)-tip. first guide was ~34" from the reel. i have to say i was very impressed. i will play with it some more tuesday but i don't see me making any changes to it. i know it's only a little test casting and i haven't used the rod yet but this may be a game changer for me. i can't see me building a rod any other way going forward.

my most recent builds have been kw30-25-20-12-10/8. this build replaces 30-25-20-12 with 25-12-8, dropping a 30 & 20 and adding in an 8m. i haven't checked the weights but that's a pretty decent savings.

You say replace with KW25 K12 K8M. ? Use the 25 on small spool reels but haven't on 200-250reels. I do have a breach way honey rod which I built awhile back for conventional and spin. MN30. Casted great w/ fire line with a Mitchell 302. Looks odd.

i meant my most recent builds have all been kw30-25-20 and this one uses fewer of the larger size guides for seemingly the same performance. i didn't think that the 25-12-8 was going to work very well on an 11' rod with a 200 size reel. i have to play around with it a little more but i don't think i'm going to change much.

i took some slow-mo video with my iphone. it was kind of hard to make a cast, grab the phone, and then line up with the light correctly but on the video that i got, i couldn't see any issues with the line going thru the guides.

Kind of a hat trick, filming it alone.LOL

yeah, kind of a pain in the ass. i was looking at the set up again, the old COF in me has a hard time looking at the ring sizes but i know what i saw with test casting at it worked very well. i'm going to start wrapping tomorrow. with the single foots, s/b real fast to get it done. underwraps s/b on and coat of finish tomorrow, guides s/b done by sunday night including 1-2 coats of finish. it s/b by next tuesday i think.

Drew using a lock wrap?

Drew using a lock wrap?

no, just plain wrap. i've never had a guide pull out before.

I no seasoned rod builder but for my money that lock wrap has less strength than convench...
IMHO

underwraps on tonight. i weighed the guides - the kl25-12-8m-8kt(5)-tip and the alternative, kw30-25-20-12-8(x4)-tip. pics are below. the kl set-up is 37% lighter vs the kw.

The lock wrap is a conventional wrap. It just encapsulates the guide frame with 3 wraps of thread then coated. I did an experiment and bent the guide to sh*t while the non lock eventually pulled out. One way to sustain a guide with a non lock wrap is when you epoxy the wrap wipe the frame with brush as it spin nd the epoxy will form a neat gusset up against the front of guide frame. Larger KT guides where the lock wrap gets bunchy looking, the gusset accomplishes the extra hold.

I put in locking wraps when I did mine. It was pretty straightforward, I'm not sure why you wouldn't do this. I guess from a 'looks' perspective, you have to get the timing down as to when to start the lock wraps so that when you finish wrap over them you don't climb the fillet too much. I wasn't worried about that too much, so just wrapping around the guide shank itself was pretty simple. My entire wrap was done by hand as well, so the building speed was the same regardless. It seems like a good idea to do. Are there any negatives, besides cosmetic issues?

I'm really interested to see how this all works out for you. For my build, it's a light duty and fair weather bay rod....I'm not worried about single foot guides. However, in the surf and when things get snotty they still worry me. I've bent double foot guides before and sheared off single foot guides. These single foot guides are tall and long which is quite a lever arm.

The other thing I'm worried about, perhaps needlessly, is whether this rapid choke is really peeky, or highly finnessed. By that I mean, it may perform well and better even when all conditions are optimal, but with variations in conditions it may perform less well. So higher performance, but less versatility. I am interested to see if problems develop in high winds, cross winds, and shifting winds. I'm also interested to see what happens if you don't get your line stacked well on the reel and have it catch a bit, what will happen. Water logging, ice crystal, etc.

But, I'm very impressed by what it does for the rod. You can pull that stripper in closer and have more runners which is really nice for power and makes the rod much crisper in the tip. You have a lot of options on the static loading.

With the rapid choke I have on my 10' there's a total of 10 guides, 3 reduction and 7 runners/choke. Not a down and dirty rock hopper rod but for beach fishing. I be interested once I get out to cast the set up and when it goes into use "in the real world".

i just see no reason to use a locking wrap based on my past experiences. i've been building rods for 30 years at this point, many with single foots and i've never had a single issue with a plain'ol wrap. imho, it's just extra work for something that's isn't all that useful. that doesn't mean something can't happen, doesn't mean it won't, just that it hasn't happened to me to warrant doing anything different.

i'm not too worried about the single foot guides while fishing. the only time that i've had an issue with a guide breaking or getting damaged is when i've fallen on the rocks with a rod. if i take a header, single/double - it probably won't matter too much at that point.... the biggest risk will be in/out of the truck and the ceiling racks in the garage. i have a tacoma with a cap, i do have a rack up top but any extra rods are always inside. the risk will be banging them around then.

i'm also curious to see how it will work in the real world. 30-45 minutes test casting (while positive) doesn't mean a heck of a lot. i will also say, this rod probably isn't going to be the goto when its crappy so i'm not too concerned about various crosswinds, etc. i did throw it the other day with the wind (there was a lot) and i did not notice any issues. i did spend more time out of the wind but that was mainly trying to video it to see if i had any issues with the line. i couldn't see anything significant (fwiw the slo-mo camera on the iphone was very helpful. with a second person i probably would've gotten some good video.)

this build kind of went the opposite with guides and location. the stripper is out a little farther than typical and i have 1 less guide vs previous 11' (my 1327 has 9 as does the 1321). this one has 8.

i should get the guides on sat and hopefully the first coat of finish as well. if i'm lucky i will finish sunday, worst case on tues on my day off. a few days for a final cure then maybe play around with it next weekend.

x-flock on, ramp done. guides and first coat s/b on tomorrow.

getting there

few more

last for now

Good looking. Started to wrap my own rod. Test cast today. Line went through like water from a hose. Deceiving layout look. Like you Drew it was a challenge to convince myself this actually casts. Ended up with the static layout which I painstakingly redid umpteen times on the bench. No noise , slap and line went straight through guides w/o a curl. This was with Suffix braid. Wrapped a few guides tonight. One thing for sure, the rod tip weight is nil.

it (the layout) still doesn't look 'right'....i probably have one more coat of finish tomorrow, then done.

FWIW, I've tested mine out now about 5 different times on an array of different lures in weight and aerodynamic profiles over many hours now. It casts flawlessly and the rod action is fantastic for a glass rod.

I did get a 'wind knot' at one point. THat was due to using a 710 with too much braid on it and I was tossing pencils and spooks, so nothing to do with the layout. All user error with the line management. When I saw it, I could have dealt with it, but I decided to see what would happen if this happens to me at night and I don't see it. I figured its better to learn now and not while fishing. So I casted it.

Casted it and the knot stuck at the choke and bent the single foot guide. Keep in mind, that's a 6 on mine, with 6 runners behind it. It didn't pull out or crack anything and I bent it back. It wasn't a hard cast.

Just something to keep in mind, I hadn't thought about this 'failure mode' when considering the layout. I thought about whether I would pass a leader knot some, decided I wouldn't, I thought about clogging with weed and decided my rod was a light duty fair weather rod anyway and went with smaller guides, to keep it light and maximize the number of runners. But I hadn't considered an inadvertent 'wind knot'.

I figure at some point, I'll break it, and then I'll see if I can find a double foot that will work for this guide. Maybe even if the knot passed this guide the line speed would be considerably slowed down when it hit the first runner.

But overall, very happy with the way it came out. I learned a lot, had a lot of fun and realize now that epoxy work isn't easy.

Great summary on the layout. That is a tip light layout. Obviously not a all out surf rod layout for our rocky shore fishing but clean beaches it's perfect. Oh yeh, epoxy finish takes practice and time. Many years of plugs and rod finishing, and I still learn more each time. 1201M next???

Yup, 1201M is next. It will be NGC/hybrid with BSVLG's to reduce and transition into MN10's, in a NGC/hybrid type layout.... Once I figure out what I want to do with the handle and reel location.

The 120L is and will be my primary here in CT, but when the wind kicks up, especially in the fall migration I need something that can punch a cast better. Of course it will double for rock fields where I need to turn a fish quickly as well. Conceptually, I need something that will cover over the top side of the 1201L in ability to punch some weight and turn a fish. But since it isn't the norm. for me, I don't want the 11' for all its weight.

It must be rock hopping ready, and I will be going with a layout I know is up for the challenge with double foot guides.

I would consider re-wrapping both 120's iKR concept if double foot steel guides were offered. I do like what it does for the rod and tip weight.

i finished the rod yesterday. going to let it sit for a few days then maybe play around with it.

regarding single footed guides and durability. i have the same concerns but they're really baseless according to my experience. in all my time fishing jetties back in nj the only time that i had any issues with any guides was when i fell on the rocks. when that happens it won't matter what guides are on the rod, so i'm not too concerned about this one and fishing it hard.

few more

last ones

Beautiful workmanship.
The real issue with single foot guides is in transport. When fishing they are fine.

Beautiful workmanship.
The real issue with single foot guides is in transport. When fishing they are fine.

thanks

yup, in/out thru my truck is my main concern

Drew just finished my KL-H build. Like you mentioned, the tall guides may bend but they bend back. Providing the ring doesn't crack. Regardess, any guide ring make will crack if hit hard enough on rocks. BTW the 10' Lami Infinity final weight, 10.6oz. My aging body should like that.!