Just getting started. Damn.

The Wray presser was good. Not a lot of surprises here to be honest. Case against Clinton wasn't prosecutable, no evidence of bias impacting the investigation, FBI agents are human and made mistakes, some FBI agents didn't like Trump etc...

Seems pretty clear if Comey followed department process Clinton's chance of winning would have gone way up.

The Wray presser was good. Not a lot of surprises here to be honest. Case against Clinton wasn't prosecutable, no evidence of bias impacting the investigation, FBI agents are human and made mistakes, some FBI agents didn't like Trump etc...

Seems pretty clear if Comey followed department process Clinton's chance of winning would have gone way up.

well...that's a view

The Wray presser was good. Not a lot of surprises here to be honest. Case against Clinton wasn't prosecutable, no evidence of bias impacting the investigation, FBI agents are human and made mistakes, some FBI agents didn't like Trump etc...

Seems pretty clear if Comey followed department process Clinton's chance of winning would have gone way up.




I would even go so far as to say if Hillary used a DoS email address and services, rather than a bathroom server, she might have beaten Trump.

I would even go so far as to say if Hillary used a DoS email address and services, rather than a bathroom server, she might have beaten Trump.

Maybe but then there would have been more evidence about how Hillary had James McDougall or Vince Foster killed.
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this is pretty funny...

James Comey- First, the inspector general’s team went through the F.B.I.’s work with a microscope and found no evidence that bias or improper motivation affected the investigation, which I know was done competently, honestly and independently.

page 149:

. . . these text messages also caused us to assess Strzok’s decision in October 2016 to prioritize the Russia investigation over following up on the Midyear-related investigative lead discovered on the Weiner laptop. We concluded that we did not have confidence that this decision by Strzok was free from bias.

page 161:

Nevertheless, we found that Page’s statement, on its face, consisted of a recommendation that the Midyear team consider how Clinton would treat the FBI if she were to become President in deciding how to handle Clinton’s interview. Suggesting that investigative decisions be based on this consideration was inappropriate and created an appearance of bias.

page 420-421:

We were deeply troubled by text messages sent by Strzok and Page that potentially indicated or created the appearance that investigative decisions were impacted by bias or improper considerations.

COMMENTS SECTION

. . . when one senior FBI official, Strzok, who was helping to lead the Russia investigation at the time, conveys in a text message to another senior FBI official, Page, that “we’ll stop” candidate Trump from being elected — after other extensive text messages between the two disparaging candidate Trump — it is not only indicative of a biased state of mind but, even more seriously, implies a willingness to take official action to impact the presidential candidate’s electoral prospects. This is antithetical to the core values of the FBI and the Department of Justice.

Maybe but then there would have been more evidence about how Hillary had James McDougall or Vince Foster killed.
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So let's clear this out.

Your saying that Hillary running a server in her IT guys bathroom (well, after in her basement and in a COLO somewhere else) is the credibility equivalent to McDougal and Foster? Couldn't fit in chemtrails?

What im saying is that the Repubs. Would have come up with something to fire up the base. Even bringing out the lies of the 30 something people the Clintons had killed.
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What im saying is that the Repubs. Would have come up with something to fire up the base. Even bringing out the lies of the 30 something people the Clintons had killed.
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You are probably right in that regard, but while Foster/MacDougal might be tin foil hat territory - Hillary's Grossly Negligent “extremely careless” Email Server was very real.

Conservatives Clinton emails =Criminal

Conservatives Trump Russian investigation and indictments = witch hunt

Conservatives Benghazi = 4 left to die outrageous Criminal

Conservatives Niger attack leaves 4 US soldiers dead =:faga:

Conservatives Obama to Talk to north Korea = sacrilegious

Conservatives Trump to Talk to north Korea = divine intervention

Conservatives behaving in a way that suggests one has higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.

Conservatives Clinton emails =Criminal

Conservatives Trump Russian investigation and indictments = witch hunt

Conservatives Benghazi = 4 left to die outrageous Criminal

Conservatives Niger attack leaves 4 US soldiers dead =:faga:

Conservatives Obama to Talk to north Korea = sacrilegious

Conservatives Trump to Talk to north Korea = divine intervention

Conservatives behaving in a way that suggests one has higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.

We know Hilary was reckless with her emails. There's still very little evidence to show Trump collusion. If there is, he needs to be held accountable. But the investigation hasn't shown much.

As to Niger, did the people who were killed, repeatedly ask for more security? Did Trump lie about the underlying motive for the attack?

On North Korea, there has been legitimate hypocrisy, you are correct. On the other points, well you are trying to prove that liberal=good, conservative=bad, as usual.

What im saying is that the Repubs. Would have come up with something to fire up the base. Even bringing out the lies of the 30 something people the Clintons had killed.
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You may be right, that the GOP would have invented dirt on her if they had to. The fact is, they didn't have to.

There's still very little evidence to show Trump collusion. If there is, he needs to be held accountable. But the investigation hasn't shown much.
Jim, do we have to do this again? The investigation hasn't published a report and leaking as been virtually nonexistent.

What's in the public domain is that the campaign absolutely did collude with Russians in the Trump tower, that Trump did consistently and actively encourage election meddling even after he knew it was the Russians...even to the point of working to cover it up.

If this isn't betrayal I'm not sure what is.

Jim, do we have to do this again? The investigation hasn't published a report and leaking as been virtually nonexistent.

What's in the public domain is that the campaign absolutely did collude with Russians in the Trump tower, that Trump did consistently and actively encourage election meddling even after he knew it was the Russians...even to the point of working to cover it up.

If this isn't betrayal I'm not sure what is.

"The investigation hasn't published a report "

Number 1, it's been, what, almost a year? Number two, I didn't know that nothing could be inferred until a report was published, silly me.

"What's in the public domain is that the campaign absolutely did collude with Russians in the Trump tower"

Really?

"Trump did consistently and actively encourage election meddling "

You might be thinking of the DNC meddling in their own primary, with help from CNN of course...

"The investigation hasn't published a report "


"What's in the public domain is that the campaign absolutely did collude with Russians in the Trump tower"

Really?

"Trump did consistently and actively encourage election meddling "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EZFBB-MntE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EZFBB-MntE

He also said Obama wasn't born here, and that he doesn't respect John McCain.

He says an awful lot of kooky stuff.

J

What's in the public domain is that the campaign absolutely did collude with Russians in the Trump tower, that Trump did consistently and actively encourage election meddling even after he knew it was the Russians...even to the point of working to cover it up.

If this isn't betrayal I'm not sure what is.

they he'll probably go to jail....

By Jonathan Chait
“Would any defense lawyer advise @realDonaldTrump to meet with SC Mueller? In the absence of any evidence of collusion, why?” asks conservative pundit Hugh Hewitt. “No collusion = end of inquiry.” The idea that Robert Mueller has no evidence of collusion, and that he has instead diverted his interest into the secondary crime of obstruction of justice, has been taken up by Trump and repeated on the right so frequently it has settled into seeming hardened fact.

Of course, what Mueller knows about collusion and what the public knows about collusion are two different things. Even we mere civilians have access to a great deal of information on cooperation between the Trump campaign and Russia. Whether this body of information amounts to proof of collusion is something you could dispute if you took an especially stringent definition of the terms “proof” and “collusion.”

You might know that a man ran into a building with a gun, then a person was shot in the building, and then the man ran out. All this would be evidence he committed the murder, while perhaps falling short of proof. Proof is a very high standard to meet. But evidence of collusion? There’s simply no question that there is evidence. Lots and lots of it.

Paul Manafort’s lawyers adopted a version of the Trumpian defense, that the Mueller probe is a fishing expedition for unrelated crimes. The Department of Justice answered this with a legal filing specifically affirming that he is investigating whether Manafort “committed a crime or crimes by colluding with Russian government officials with respect to the Russian government’s efforts to interfere with the 2016 election.”

What do we know about Manafort? We know he ran the campaign of a pro-Russian candidate on behalf of Russia previously; that he had taken on massive debt to a foreign patron, Oleg Deripaska; that Deripaska was working on behalf of the Russian government’s foreign policy; that Manafort accepted his position as Trump’s campaign manager for free; and that he hoped his work for Trump would help him “get whole” with Deripaska.

Does that prove Trump’s campaign manager was working with Russia? No, but it certainly counts as evidence.

Want more evidence? Okay. Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos met with a Russian agent who told him he had dirt on Hillary Clinton, later boasted that Russia had obtained damaging Clinton emails, and lied to the FBI about his contacts with Russia. That would also qualify as evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.

Peter W. Smith, a veteran Republican political operative, attempted to obtain stolen Clinton emails and told the people he contacted in pursuit of these emails he was working on behalf of the Trump campaign. When one of the cybersecurity experts he contacted warned Smith that his work might involve collusion with Russia, it did not dissuade him at all. That also seems like evidence.

Trump confidant Roger Stone reportedly knew about stolen Clinton emails, emailed with the person who had the stolen material, publicly flaunted his advance knowledge of these emails, and also spoke regularly with Donald Trump during the period when he had this knowledge. It is a virtual certainty Stone colluded with Russia on the email hack, and highly probable he made Trump an accessory after the fact.

Then of course there is the 2016 Trump Tower meeting. I would argue that the publicly available information pertaining to that episode amounts to proof of Trump campaign collusion with Russia. You have a Russian agent dangling Russian assistance in the election (“part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump”), and the offer of help being accepted (“if it’s what you say I love it”). It doesn’t even matter to what degree or even whether the offer was actually followed through. If you take a meeting to plan a crime, and the crime later happens and you benefit, you are an accessory to the crime whether or not you participated after the meeting.

But even if you don’t consider the Trump Tower meeting to be absolute proof of collusion, it is certainly evidence of collusion. It was, after all, a meeting held for the express purpose of furthering cooperation — or, as it were, collusion — between the Trump campaign and Russia. And there is no reason to believe that the publicly available evidence of this meeting — which Trump and his family have lied about, repeatedly — contains the entire extent of the information about it.

The report from Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee reports that, on June 6, 2016, Donald Trump Jr. made two phone calls with Emin Agalarov. In between those two calls — which, based on emails he exchanged around that time with Rob Goldstone, indicate Trump successfully arranged the meeting during the calls — Donald Jr. made another call. Phone records show the call, at 4:27 p.m., was to a blocked phone number. Corey Lewandowski told the House Intelligence Committee that Donald Trump had a blocked phone number. “Despite the [Democratic] Minority’s repeated efforts to obtain home or cell phone records for then-candidate Trump to determine whether the blocked call was Trump Jr.’s father,” Democrats report, “the Majority was unwilling to pursue the matter.”

This has not attracted nearly enough attention. There is clear forensic evidence to show that Donald Trump, Jr. called somebody, quite likely his father, while he was rushing to set up the Trump Tower meeting. House Republicans blocked an effort to prove that Donald Trump was the person he called.

Trump’s own rhetoric after the meeting provides more evidence he was briefed on the Russian offer to provide dirt on Clinton. Trump promised to deliver a “major speech” within a few days. Trump promised he would be “discussing all of the things that have taken place with the Clintons. I think you’re going to find it very informative and very, very interesting.”

The Republican narrative has embraced the fantastical interpretation first that there is no public evidence of collusion, and the even more delusional offshoot belief that Mueller therefore has no private evidence of collusion. The intent of saying this, of course, is to enable Republican efforts to obstruct or eventually end the probe, which they can justify on the grounds that there was no evidence of collusion anyway. And they are advertising in advance their intent to declare Trump innocent of wrongdoing regardless of how damning the final indictment may be.

Paul Manafort jailed by judge for alleged witness tampering


more of what conservatives see as lack of evidence

well...that's a view

Paul Manafort jailed by judge for alleged witness tampering


more of what Trumplicans see as lack of evidence

Fixed it for you

Really?


Yes, unless you believe that meeting really was about adoption (remember, DJT Jr 'I love it') and Trump didn't lie about dictating the cover up response.

Was it criminal, we'll see.

As far as the investigation being to long, how long was Ken Starr's investigation? Were you appalled by the length of that?

Yes, unless you believe that meeting really was about adoption (remember, DJT Jr 'I love it') and Trump didn't lie about dictating the cover up response.

Was it criminal, we'll see.

As far as the investigation being to long, how long was Ken Starr's investigation? Were you appalled by the length of that?

Brian, kind of like believing that Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch were just passing the time on the private jet, the day before Hilary was cleared.

The politicians are beyond disgusting, many ordinary citizens cheer for something one day, deride it the next depending on who's in charge. I've been saying it since Obama was sworn in, I don't know what unites us anymore, I just don't, other than contempt we have for the other side.

If we're going o let the investigation play out, let's stop pretending we know more than what has been made available.

Brian, kind of like believing that Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch were just passing the time on the private jet, the day before Hilary was cleared.

The politicians are beyond disgusting, many ordinary citizens cheer for something one day, deride it the next depending on who's in charge. I've been saying it since Obama was sworn in, I don't know what unites us anymore, I just don't, other than contempt we have for the other side.

If we're going o let the investigation play out, let's stop pretending we know more than what has been made available.

The Lynch thing was shady, no doubt. I don't recall much defense of it here.

This isn't pretending. They have blatantly lied about that meeting at Trump Tower, the emails have come out, and the stories have changed multiple times.

Again, maybe not criminal, but certainly warrants the continuation of the investigation, whatever Gulliani wants to say.

Brian, kind of like believing that Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch were just passing the time on the private jet, the day before Hilary was cleared.
But per the IG report there wasn’t a case to be made. Are you suggesting the AG magically rewrote the entire investigation and made career FBI officials suddenly reverse course in a day???

Lynch made a mistake given the optics but I don’t see how she could have influenced anything with what we know today.
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Again, maybe not criminal, but certainly warrants the continuation of the investigation, whatever Gulliani wants to say.



a politically biased investigation begun under false pretenses...that's pretty bad...I hope whatever they find regarding Trump and the Russians is worse than Obama's politicization and weaponization of the DOJ and FBI

[QUOTE=scottw;1144686]a politically biased investigation begun under false pretenses...please explain your facts to support ?? that's pretty bad...I hope whatever they find regarding Trump and the Russians is worse than Obama's politicization and weaponization of the DOJ and FBI please explain your facts to support you claim ?? /QUOTE]


Seems you have closed your eyes to information any facts and have gone over to tin foil hat :cheers2:

[QUOTE=scottw;1144686]a politically biased investigation begun under false pretenses...please explain your facts to support ?? that's pretty bad...I hope whatever they find regarding Trump and the Russians is worse than Obama's politicization and weaponization of the DOJ and FBI please explain your facts to support you claim ?? /QUOTE]


Seems you have closed your eyes to information any facts and have gone over to tin foil hat :cheers2:
His behavior hasn’t changed.
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Trumps response to his boy going to jail (law an order party my ass )




Donald J. Trump
✔
@realDonaldTrump
Wow, what a tough sentence for Paul Manafort, who has represented Ronald Reagan, Bob Dole and many other top political people and campaigns. Didn’t know Manafort was the head of the Mob. What about Comey and Crooked Hillary and all of the others? Very unfair!

1:41 PM - Jun 15, 2018


Rudy Giuliani floated the idea that special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation could be "cleaned up" with presidential pardons.

"When the whole thing is over, things might get cleaned up with some presidential pardons," Giuliani told the New York Daily News on Friday.


Giuliani later told CNN that he wasn't suggesting that the president should pardon anyone in the near-term, but that there was historical precedent for pardons once an investigation is done. Sure thats what he ment

I find it so funny Rudy calling Biden an idiot, every time Rudy opens his mouth, I say to myself this moron is a lawyer really?
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I guess the right has nothing to say

I guess the right has nothing to say
It’s a gaffe, I’m more concerned with the new lawsuit that they used his charity as a slush fund including absuing veteran donations.

This on top of the 20 other scandals plaguing them.
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It’s a gaffe, I’m more concerned with the new lawsuit that they used his charity as a slush fund including absuing veteran donations.

This on top of the 20 other scandals plaguing them.
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But her emails......
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But her emails......
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How about we talk about the 2000 children sepearated from their parents at the border in the past few months? I’m sure Jim can tell us what the good book would say.
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I am pretty sure they are just Mexicans Jeff.
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How about we talk about the 2000 children sepearated from their parents at the border in the past few months? I’m sure Jim can tell us what the good book would say.
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In all seriousness, why are the kids getting separated? Are the parents also not breaking the law?

I don't like it, but I have zero problem kicking out people who aren't supposed to be here, and I notice that you din't cry about Obama's deportations, of which there were many.

[QUOTE=spence;1144701]How about we talk about the 2000 children sepearated from their parents at the border in the past few months?

When American citizens are placed in detention, they are separated from their children. Should their children stay with them while they are in prison or being held for trial?

It might be a strong deterrent for you if you know that you will be separated from your children if you illegally cross the border.

I'm sure the children are well taken care of.

I’m sure Jim can tell us what the good book would say.
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The Good Book says in the Tenth Commandment "Let not your desire be turned to your neighbor's house . . . or anything which is his."

In all seriousness, why are the kids getting separated?

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/illegal-immigration-enforcement-separating-kids-at-border/

[QUOTE= /QUOTE]


Seems you have closed your eyes to information any facts and have gone over to tin foil hat :cheers2:

oh yeah...I forgot the IRS too...

I think "tin foil hat" has already been used three or four times this week...:yawn:

I guess the right has nothing to say

photoshop that yourself?

Again, maybe not criminal, but certainly warrants the continuation of the investigation, whatever Gulliani wants to say.

better do something soon....

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/13/mueller-investigation-trump-poll-643491

fun to watch old video clips of high ranking democrats and their views an immigration back when they differentiated between legal and illegal immigration....SAY WHAT!!!


https://youtu.be/728SW65tlU0?t=199

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/illegal-immigration-enforcement-separating-kids-at-border/

Ahh. So in spenceworld, murderers who have little kids, should not have to go to prison, because its bad to separate kids from parents.

I don’t like the separation, and 100% of the blame lies with the parents.
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Ahh. So in spenceworld, murderers who have little kids, should not have to go to prison, because its bad to separate kids from parents.

I don’t like the separation, and 100% of the blame lies with the parents.
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Trump says it’s the Democrats fault
This administration has made the choice to charge all people who cross the border criminally rather than civilly.
This is America and we incarcerate a higher percentage of people than anybody else by far.
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This is America and we incarcerate a higher percentage of people than anybody else by far.
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....are you saying those incarcerated didn't earn it?

Sad for the children no doubt and the blame clearly is with the parents and the Mexican government. People fleeing abusive husbands, fear of death from gang violence and maybe a desire for the American dream; where is the support for those people in their own government? That is the real story hear, there wouldn't be a flood of people coming across if their own government and society was a decent environment to raise their own children and enjoy a safe productive life. There are people in the US with the same fears and they are making a run with children in tow to the Mexican border. Unfortunately the children are pawns in a very bad game of chess and nobody comes out the winner in this one.

Sad for the children no doubt and the blame clearly is with the parents and the Mexican government. People fleeing abusive husbands, fear of death from gang violence and maybe a desire for the American dream; where is the support for those people in their own government? That is the real story hear, there wouldn't be a flood of people coming across if their own government and society was a decent environment to raise their own children and enjoy a safe productive life. There are people in the US with the same fears and they are making a run with children in tow to the Mexican border. Unfortunately the children are pawns in a very bad game of chess and nobody comes out the winner in this one.

You know who is winning? The people who own the private prisons that are housing all those kids. Connect the dots to the prisons investors and their ties to people who are in the government and I’m sure it all makes sense. But on the surface, this is wonderful news to the blue collar trump fan who would call those like us who care about what is right and wrong about how to respect a family a snowflake and tell us to go hide in our safe space.
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The people who own the private prisons that are housing all those kids.
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wait...all those kids are being sent to prisons?

In all seriousness, why are the kids getting separated? Are the parents also not breaking the law?

I don't like it, but I have zero problem kicking out people who aren't supposed to be here, and I notice that you din't cry about Obama's deportations, of which there were many.
The spike in separations is largely an attempt to gain leverage over democrats...

As for Obama, he was aggressively prioritizing criminals...nothing wrong with that.
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It might be a strong deterrent for you if you know that you will be separated from your children if you illegally cross the border.

I'm sure the children are well taken care of.
Yea, blame the women trying to seek asylum because the alternative is gang rape and murder.

As for the kids, many are just toddlers. There’s no scenario where taking them from a parent can be considered being well taken care of unless there’s danger to the child.
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Ahh. So in spenceworld, murderers who have little kids, should not have to go to prison, because its bad to separate kids from parents.
Has said no one ever.

I don’t like the separation, and 100% of the blame lies with the parents.
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I hope you’re going to church this morning Jim.
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Has said no one ever.


I hope you’re going to church this morning Jim.
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You bet I did. I get why people want what’s best for their
Kids. But not everyone who might want to come here, can come. There are limits.
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Under federal law, it is a crime for anyone to enter into the US without the approval of an immigration officer -- it's a misdemeanor offense But again comparing Inmates and separating them from their children is just another False equivalence the right love to use to justify an action


they even brought the bible in to the argument

I would cite you to the Apostle Paul and his clear and wise command in Romans 13 to obey the laws of the government because God has ordained them for the purpose of order,” said Sessions

Saw this comment on line

I wish the pro-life community would get as upset with ripping a child from his mother's arms as the community does over ripping a child from his mother's womb. The illegal act should not be met with the evil act of separating a child from his parents

If this is supposed to be a deterrent, perhaps the government should just kill the kids. After all, if taking children from parents is a deterrent, surely killing the children will be even more of a deterrent. At this point we're just arguing about degrees of evil and monstrous acts.

Yea, blame the women trying to seek asylum because the alternative is gang rape and murder.

Are you responding to the right person? What did I blame the women of?

As for the kids, many are just toddlers. There’s no scenario where taking them from a parent can be considered being well taken care of unless there’s danger to the child.
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Is there danger to the child by taking it illegally through hundreds of miles including many areas that are loaded with rapists and murderers and across two borders in order to, hopefully, arrive to an uncertain fate? Do you actually believe that is safer for the child than being in the custody of some legal child service agency or relative other than the parent until the situation can quickly be resolved?

And why do you keep asking Jim stuff such as going to church or what the Good Book says? Do you give a rat's azz about church or the Good Book? That's a pitiful, disgusting technique plied by leftists and the Muslim Brotherhood in order to use someone's beliefs or laws against them when you don't care about those beliefs except to use them as a weapon. And it's really pitiful when you don't even understand those beliefs well enough to do that.

wdmso doesn't approve of bringing the Bible into the argument. Maybe he should chastise you as he did the "right" for doing so. Naah. It's only bad for him, I guess, if the "right" does it.

Sad for the children no doubt and the blame clearly is with the parents and the Mexican government. People fleeing abusive husbands, fear of death from gang violence and maybe a desire for the American dream; where is the support for those people in their own government? That is the real story hear, there wouldn't be a flood of people coming across if their own government and society was a decent environment to raise their own children and enjoy a safe productive life. There are people in the US with the same fears and they are making a run with children in tow to the Mexican border. Unfortunately the children are pawns in a very bad game of chess and nobody comes out the winner in this one.

I agree totally with what you say here--including the other Latin American governments from where the illegals come.

I wish the pro-life community would get as upset with ripping a child from his mother's arms as the community does over ripping a child from his mother's womb. The illegal act should not be met with the evil act of separating a child from his parents

.

Oh give me an effing break. You're going to say with a straight face, that there is any equivalence whatsoever, between (1) temporary separating children from parents so the parents can be processed through the criminal justice system (and providing basic care for the kids during that time), and (2) slaughtering an unborn baby who by definition, hasn't done anything wrong?

And where was the moral outrage over this, from 2009 - 2016? Is this something Trump invented, or was this taking place when the Nobel Peace Prize winner was POTUS?

Sad for the children no doubt and the blame clearly is with the parents and the Mexican government. People fleeing abusive husbands, fear of death from gang violence and maybe a desire for the American dream; where is the support for those people in their own government? That is the real story hear, there wouldn't be a flood of people coming across if their own government and society was a decent environment to raise their own children and enjoy a safe productive life. There are people in the US with the same fears and they are making a run with children in tow to the Mexican border. Unfortunately the children are pawns in a very bad game of chess and nobody comes out the winner in this one.

^

Best post on the topic.

Here is a photo from 2014. Is this Trump's fault? The Associated Press published this photo at the time, and no one cared. And the guy who was POTUS at the time, was probably polishing his Nobel Peace Prize when this photo was taken.

Here is a photo from 2014. Is this Trump's fault? The Associated Press published this photo at the time, and no one cared. And the guy who was POTUS at the time, was probably polishing his Nobel Peace Prize when this photo was taken.

Jim,
That is a picture of a place they put unaccompanied minors upon arrival. Not the same thing.
Just another but............ to justify the current actions.
Of course it is the american way, lock them up, that will show them.

The spike in separations is largely an attempt to gain leverage over democrats...

As for Obama, he was aggressively prioritizing criminals...nothing wrong with that.
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I did not hear many people screaming when Obama did it.

If I did something that had me go to jail, I would be separated from my children, even when they were young.

These people came in through back door, not front door. Hardly fair to those that waited in line and went through legal means.

This is a great political wedge issue - only ones that benefit are the politicians and talking heads.

I did not hear many people screaming when Obama did it.

If I did something that had me go to jail, I would be separated from my children, even when they were young.

These people came in through back door, not front door. Hardly fair to those that waited in line and went through legal means.

This is a great political wedge issue - only ones that benefit are the politicians and talking heads.

"I did not hear many people screaming when Obama did it."

You bet you didn't.

"If I did something that had me go to jail, I would be separated from my children, even when they were young"

Obviously. Happens every single day.

"These people came in through back door, not front door. Hardly fair to those that waited in line and went through legal means."

I have a friend who was here legally on a student visa, he wanted to stay, but got sent back to Albania when his visa ran out, took him almost 3 years to come back. What on Gods name do you say to him (he had to wait 3 years in a godforsaken sh*thole), when we advocate letting others jump the line? What message does that send?

"This is a great political wedge issue "

That remains to be seen. The left keeps swinging, Trump keeps dodging.

Jim,
That is a picture of a place they put unaccompanied minors upon arrival. Not the same thing.
Just another but............ to justify the current actions.
Of course it is the american way, lock them up, that will show them.

So are you proposing that when adults who choose to break the law are being processed through the criminal justice system, that they be allowed to bring their children along? So we build daycares within our court buildings, with surrogate breastfeeders standing next to bailiffs? Build daycares within maximum security prisons, to avoid separating kids from their parents?

Jim, here is the rate of incarceration per 100K population for the world. It seems other people have different solutions to issues than us.
Country (or dependent territory,
subnational area, etc.) Incarceration
rate
(Prisoners per
100,000
population) Notes

United States of America 655 Notes
El Salvador 610
Turkmenistan 583
Virgin Islands (USA) 542
Maldives 514
Cuba 510
Thailand 497
Northern Mariana Islands (USA) 482
Virgin Islands (United Kingdom) 470
Bahamas 438
Seychelles 437
Grenada 435
Rwanda 434
Russian Federation 411
Guam (USA) 404
St. Kitts and Nevis 393
Panama 390
St. Vincent and the Grenadines 378
Costa Rica 374
Antigua and Barbuda 373
Belarus 364
Cayman Islands (United Kingdom) 359
Belize 356
Sint Maarten (Netherlands) 347
Palau 345
American Samoa (USA) 337
Brazil 328
Uruguay 321
Bermuda (United Kingdom) 319
Puerto Rico (USA) 313
Anguilla (United Kingdom) 307
Barbados 300
Cape Verde (Cabo Verde) 298
Namibia 295
Dominica 289
Turkey 287
Iran 284
Swaziland 282
French Guiana/Guyane (France) 281
South Africa 280
St. Lucia 279
Trinidad and Tobago 270
Peru 267
Mongolia 262
Guyana 259
Taiwan 259
Georgia 254
Dominican Republic 244
Nicaragua 238
Curaçao (Netherlands) 236
Israel 236
Azerbaijan 235
Lithuania 235
Bahrain 234
Morocco 232
Cook Islands (New Zealand) 229
Colombia 227
Chile 225
Greenland (Denmark) 225
Ecuador 222
New Zealand 220
Latvia 218
Martinique (France) 217
Honduras 216
Moldova (Republic of) 215
Czech Republic 209
Botswana 208
Tunisia 206
Samoa 204
Estonia 202
Singapore 201
Paraguay 199
New Caledonia (France) 198
Poland 198
Jordan 197
Macau (China) 197
Saudi Arabia 197
Mauritius 195
Kazakhstan 194
Albania 193
Guadeloupe (France) 192
Gabon 191
Slovakia 190
Argentina 186
Hungary 184
Suriname 183
Cambodia 176
French Polynesia (France) 176
Montenegro 174
Venezuela 173
Philippines 172
Kyrgyzstan 171
Australia 167
Malaysia 167
Tonga 166
Aruba (Netherlands) 165
Gibraltar (United Kingdom) 165
Mexico 165
Fiji 158
Ukraine 158
Kuwait 157
Bolivia 156
Macedonia (former Yugoslav Republic of) 156
Serbia 152
Uzbekistan 150
Algeria 146
Zambia 146
Bhutan 145
Myanmar (formerly Burma) 145
United Kingdom: England & Wales 141 Notes
Nauru 140
Guernsey (United Kingdom) 138
Jamaica 138
United Kingdom: Scotland 137 Notes
Guatemala 136
Brunei Darussalam 134
Jersey (United Kingdom) 133
Malta 133
Armenia 131
Portugal 129
Uganda 129
Ethiopia 127
Micronesia, Federated States of 127
Spain 127
Iraq 126
Lebanon 126
Bulgaria 125
Vietnam 122
Cameroon 121
Tajikistan 121
Zimbabwe 120
Laos 119
Mayotte (France) 119
China 118 Notes
Egypt 116
Romania 116
Luxembourg 115
Reunion (France) 115
Canada 114
Kiribati 113
Hong Kong (China) 111
Kenya 111
Tuvalu 110
Republic of (South) Korea 109
Isle of Man (United Kingdom) 108
Kosovo/Kosova 106
United Arab Emirates 104
France 102
Libya 99
Austria 98
Haiti 96
Italy 96
Indonesia 94
Sri Lanka 94
Angola 93
Greece 93
Lesotho 92
Belgium 91
Afghanistan 88
Madagascar 88
Monaco 85
Sao Tome e Principe 85
Burundi 84
Cyprus (Republic of) 83
Ireland, Republic of 82
Switzerland 82
Malawi 79
United Kingdom: Northern Ireland 79 Notes
Croatia 78
Germany 78
Senegal 76
Norway 74
Bosnia and Herzegovina: Federation 73
Solomon Islands 73
Vanuatu 71
Andorra 69
Benin 68
Bosnia and Herzegovina: Republika Srpska 66
Cote d'Ivoire 66
Djibouti 66
Marshall Islands 66
Mozambique 65
Nepal 65
Sierra Leone 64
Slovenia 64
Equatorial Guinea 63
Papua New Guinea 63
Togo 62
Syria 60
Chad 59
Denmark 59
Netherlands 59
Gambia 58
Tanzania 58
Finland 57
Sweden 57
Niger 53
Qatar 53
Yemen 53
South Sudan 52
Timor-Leste (formerly East Timor) 51
Ghana 50
Bangladesh 47
Mauritania 46
Sudan 46
Japan 45
Liberia 44
Pakistan 43
Burkina Faso 41
Iceland 38
Nigeria 36
Oman 36
India 33
Mali 33
Democratic Republic of Congo 29
Congo (Republic of) 27
Liechtenstein 27
Guinea (Republic of) 25
Comoros 23
Central African Republic 16
Faeroe Islands (Denmark) 12
Guinea Bissau 10

So are you proposing that when adults who choose to break the law are being processed through the criminal justice system, that they be allowed to bring their children along? Yes So we build daycares within our court buildings, with surrogate breastfeeders standing next to bailiffs? Why would they need surrogate breastfeeders? Build daycares within maximum security prisons, to avoid separating kids from their parents? I think we need far fewer prisons and why is it always the worst offenders that you cite to advance your ideas?
In this case we are talking about people who have committed a misdemeanor, not a felony. The justification is always the worst possible outcome, which you use to justify the most draconian solution.

Those places certainly have more to offer than the US, I wonder why Mexicans aren't going there.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I think we need far fewer prisons and why is it always the worst offenders that you cite to advance your ideas?
In this case we are talking about people who have committed a misdemeanor, not a felony. The justification is always the worst possible outcome, which you use to justify the most draconian solution.

Should these people be rewarded with citizenship as the punishment for something trifling as a misdemeanor? Should they get what they committed the misdemeanor for? Should a kid who steals a candy bar be punished or made to learn a lesson by letting him keep the candy and even giving him some more?

And, as Sea Dangles said, the big list of countries with lower incarceration rates than the US do not have the problem of millions trying to get into their country, legally or illegally.

I have a hard time understanding your logic.

Jim, here is the rate of incarceration per 100K population for the world. It seems other people have different solutions to issues than us.
10

yes, and those solutions include not having an open border with Mexico, having populations that are 99% white, and in the case of some of the countries you mentioned like Iran, they execute drug dealers, which I'd imagine, cuts down on crime. If you want to have THAT conversation, let's have it. But I don't think you do.

Those places certainly have more to offer than the US, I wonder why Mexicans aren't going there.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Mexicans come here because we are right next door and fewer and fewer each year as the Mexican economy gets better. They don't come here to collect welfare or commit crimes, they come to work and earn money for their families.

We spend 50-60K per prisoner each year, or around $400 for every person in the USA.
We also have the highest rate of recidivism in the world.
So obviously our money is well spent if the object is to insure the future of our prison system.
Follow the money, look at privatization of the prison system.

Should these people be rewarded with citizenship as the punishment for something trifling as a misdemeanor? Should they get what they committed the misdemeanor for? Should a kid who steals a candy bar be punished or made to learn a lesson by letting him keep the candy and even giving him some more?

And, as Sea Dangles said, the big list of countries with lower incarceration rates than the US do not have the problem of millions trying to get into their country, legally or illegally.

I have a hard time understanding your logic.
I never said they become citizens.

Are you saying that no other country has people trying to flee their home country?
Guess you missed the Middle East and Europe.

yes, and those solutions include not having an open border with Mexico, having populations that are 99% white, and in the case of some of the countries you mentioned like Iran, they execute drug dealers, which I'd imagine, cuts down on crime. If you want to have THAT conversation, let's have it. But I don't think you do.
We do not have an open border. We did, except for Asians, until a little over a hundred years ago.
Very few countries have a 99% white population, ALL countries have a lower rate of incarceration than the USA.
What do you think people learn in prison? Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society? Do they learn how to be more successful at life from other criminals?
Why do you think white people do not commit crimes? Is our crime rate because we do not have a lily white society?
Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here?

We do not have an open border. We did, except for Asians, until a little over a hundred years ago.
Very few countries have a 99% white population, ALL countries have a lower rate of incarceration than the USA.
What do you think people learn in prison? Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society? Do they learn how to be more successful at life from other criminals?
Why do you think white people do not commit crimes? Is our crime rate because we do not have a lily white society?
Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here?

You like to ask a lot of questions. Why don't you give some answers.

I never said they become citizens.

I never said you said that. I asked you if the illegals should be rewarded with citizenship as punishment for a misdemeanor. Isn't that the goal of those who call for amnesty. And who want to maintain the system of not following up on those who don't report for their court date, and maintain the loose system that eventually winds up with an amnesty or with the illegals staying here in one way or another.

You made a point of them merely committing a misdemeanor. What do you think should be done about that?

Are you saying that no other country has people trying to flee their home country?
Guess you missed the Middle East and Europe.

I didn't know that the US has a problem of people trying to flee the country.

I never said they become citizens.

Are you saying that no other country has people trying to flee their home country?
Guess you missed the Middle East and Europe.
Here is an answer for you, and no they are not all coming here.
https://www.worldvision.org/refugees-news-stories/forced-to-flee-how-many-refugees-in-the-world

Here is an answer for you, and no they are not all coming here.
https://www.worldvision.org/refugees-news-stories/forced-to-flee-how-many-refugees-in-the-world

How is that an answer to these questions you asked:

"We do not have an open border. We did, except for Asians, until a little over a hundred years ago.
Very few countries have a 99% white population, ALL countries have a lower rate of incarceration than the USA.
What do you think people learn in prison? Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society? Do they learn how to be more successful at life from other criminals?
Why do you think white people do not commit crimes? Is our crime rate because we do not have a lily white society?
Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here?"

I did not hear many people screaming when Obama did it.
Obama didn't do it, neither did Bush.

How is that an answer to these questions you asked:

"We do not have an open border. We did, except for Asians, until a little over a hundred years ago.
Very few countries have a 99% white population, ALL countries have a lower rate of incarceration than the USA.
What do you think people learn in prison? Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society? Do they learn how to be more successful at life from other criminals?
Why do you think white people do not commit crimes? Is our crime rate because we do not have a lily white society?
Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here?"
Those were questions for Jim, why would I answer for him?
He seems to be quite capable, though I might disagree with his opinions.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Is there danger to the child by taking it illegally through hundreds of miles including many areas that are loaded with rapists and murderers and across two borders in order to, hopefully, arrive to an uncertain fate?
Clearly many feel the journey is worth the risk. If the status quo is unsustainable you have to change.

And why do you keep asking Jim stuff such as going to church or what the Good Book says? Do you give a rat's azz about church or the Good Book? That's a pitiful, disgusting technique plied by leftists and the Muslim Brotherhood in order to use someone's beliefs or laws against them when you don't care about those beliefs except to use them as a weapon.
Just curious if he really practices what he's preached. I'd note even Jeff Session's own church rejected his biblical justification.

And where was the moral outrage over this, from 2009 - 2016? Is this something Trump invented, or was this taking place when the Nobel Peace Prize winner was POTUS?
Neither Bush nor Obama had the same policy Jim. Both treated minors traveling with a parent differently. Trump has changed two important things very recently:

1) By mandating that every case be prosecuted as criminal means the kids can't stay with their parent(s).

2) The process change on unaccompanied minors is making them harder to place. Most of these kids have family in the US and often that family is undocumented. This decision is now under the jurisdiction of ICE so if family is contacted they aren't responding for fear of deportation.

The Administration is just flatly lying to your face when they say this is a democrat law they're forced to follow. We need comprehensive immigration reform for sure but this is an evil political stunt for Trump to try and get his wall at the expense of kids.

We do not have an open border. We did, except for Asians, until a little over a hundred years ago.
Very few countries have a 99% white population, ALL countries have a lower rate of incarceration than the USA.
What do you think people learn in prison? Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society? Do they learn how to be more successful at life from other criminals?
Why do you think white people do not commit crimes? Is our crime rate because we do not have a lily white society?
Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here?

"We do not have an open border"

we have, what, ten million undocumented people living here? A few years ago, a kid running for Congress, went to Mexico, and he crossed illegally back into the US, riding on an elephant, with a mariachi band walking with him, and he made it across (so the story goes). Effectively, it's open.

"What do you think people learn in prison? "

Nothing good. But they can't hurt civilians while in there, and that's at least a big part of why they are there.

"Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society?"

Probably not. If you want to spend some of my money to improve the programs to teach them marketable skills, I'm fine with that, if the programs work. I don't like spending money just to say you spent it.

"Why do you think white people do not commit crimes?"

For the same reason that Asian immigrants don't commit a lot of crimes. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with the culture that people embrace. Whites and Asians tend to embrace traditional family values and the value of education. Blacks and Hispanics (with encouragement from liberalism, in my opinion) tend to embrace a culture that encourages different, less productive, decision-making.

"Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here"

No, I'm opposed to the death penalty, but I'm in favor of brutal prison sentences for drug dealers.

are Spence, Pete and Wayne off their meds or something?

we have, what, ten million undocumented people living here? A few years ago, a kid running for Congress, went to Mexico, and he crossed illegally back into the US, riding on an elephant, with a mariachi band walking with him, and he made it across (so the story goes). Effectively, it's open.
The majority of undocumented people in the US came legally and overstayed their visa. Illegal border crossings are at a 46 year low.

For the same reason that Asian immigrants don't commit a lot of crimes. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with the culture that people embrace. Whites and Asians tend to embrace traditional family values and the value of education. Blacks and Hispanics (with encouragement from liberalism, in my opinion) tend to embrace a culture that encourages different, less productive, decision-making.

And there you have it. Hooboy.

"We do not have an open border"

we have, what, ten million undocumented people living here? A few years ago, a kid running for Congress, went to Mexico, and he crossed illegally back into the US, riding on an elephant, with a mariachi band walking with him, and he made it across (so the story goes). Effectively, it's open.

"What do you think people learn in prison? "

Nothing good. But they can't hurt civilians while in there, and that's at least a big part of why they are there.

"Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society?"

Probably not. If you want to spend some of my money to improve the programs to teach them marketable skills, I'm fine with that, if the programs work. I don't like spending money just to say you spent it.

"Why do you think white people do not commit crimes?"

For the same reason that Asian immigrants don't commit a lot of crimes. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with the culture that people embrace. Whites and Asians tend to embrace traditional family values and the value of education. Blacks and Hispanics (with encouragement from liberalism, in my opinion) tend to embrace a culture that encourages different, less productive, decision-making.

"Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here"

No, I'm opposed to the death penalty, but I'm in favor of brutal prison sentences for drug dealers.
Jim, there is an open border between each of the united states. I cannot just drive to Canada or Mexico without going thru Customs, nor can I fly to any country.
Anecdotal evidence is the populists response to issues. Rush and Bernie have been saving the world from all sorts of evils thru the media for years by citing anecdotal evidence.
People do enter this country illegally by crossing the border and also by overstaying their visas, like your friend. If you overstay your visa you have to wait three years to reapply.
We spend 50-60K a year per prison inmate to educate our prison inmates in how to be a better criminal.
We have the highest rate of recidivism in the world and you think that is the way to go?
Is it possible that the portion of the population that has the highest rate of incarceration continues to have higher and higher rates because of incarceration's effect on their culture?
You are incorrect about hispanics and rate of incarceration, it is much lower than blacks. But that would not fit into the evil Mexican image.
We have spent almost the last 50 years in a war on drugs and have made no headway.
We tried brutal sentences.
We have also let the Big Pharma create a whole new series of addicts, who then support the illegal sources.

The majority of undocumented people in the US came legally and overstayed their visa. Illegal border crossings are at a 46 year low.



And there you have it. Hooboy.

Damn right there you have it.

70% of black babies are born without a dad. Poverty will never decrease meaningfully, until that statistic decreases meaningfully. I don't think skin color makes one more or less likely to have kids out of wedlock, so I say it's culture and decision-making.'

If I'm wrong, and I am sure you think I'm wrong, you tell me what's driving it?

Damn right there you have it.

70% of black babies are born without a dad. Poverty will never decrease meaningfully, until that statistic decreases meaningfully. I don't think skin color makes one more or less likely to have kids out of wedlock, so I say it's culture and decision-making.'

If I'm wrong, and I am sure you think I'm wrong, you tell me what's driving it?
The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture
Americans don't want to imagine that our racist history is actually an ongoing, racist reality.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-source-of-black-poverty-isnt-black-culture-its-american-culture/359937/
This wasn't even driven by Trump.
There is no simple answer.
I could go back to your argument about black abortions and see where that fits into the 70% claim.
White fatherless children are over 30% now also.
I do think that how you grew up has a great effect on how you will live.
What do we do to change that, sink or swim or swimming lessons?

Jim, here is the rate of incarceration per 100K population for the world. It seems other people have different solutions to issues than us.
10

Maybe we should bring back Public stonings and cutting chit off....That might help bring the numbers down.

Didn't see North Korea on the list either, where do you think they fall on the scale?

The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture
Americans don't want to imagine that our racist history is actually an ongoing, racist reality.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-source-of-black-poverty-isnt-black-culture-its-american-culture/359937/
This wasn't even driven by Trump.
There is no simple answer.
I could go back to your argument about black abortions and see where that fits into the 70% claim.
White fatherless children are over 30% now also.
I do think that how you grew up has a great effect on how you will live.
What do we do to change that, sink or swim or swimming lessons?

Blacks who maintain th enuclear family and who are invested in their kids education, do just fine. Whites who drop out of school to have kids, struggle. There's way more to it than race.

"The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture"

Democrat American culture, in terms of slavery and segregation, not conservatives.

"There is no simple answer"

There actually is. Go to a good church on Sundays, and try to live according to the lessons taught. There's no easy answer, there is a simple answer. The simple answer is to do what's right, rather than what feels good at the moment.

Blacks who maintain th enuclear family and who are invested in their kids education, do just fine. Whites who drop out of school to have kids, struggle. There's way more to it than race.

"The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture"

Democrat American culture, in terms of slavery and segregation, not conservatives.

"There is no simple answer"

There actually is. Go to a good church on Sundays, and try to live according to the lessons taught. There's no easy answer, there is a simple answer. The simple answer is to do what's right, rather than what feels good at the moment.
Prior to the Constitution there was mandatory church attendance in some places. People were also warned out of town so they wouldn’t become a burden on the residents
Should we go back to that?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Whites and Asians tend to embrace traditional family values and the value of education. Blacks and Hispanics (with encouragement from liberalism, in my opinion) tend to embrace a culture that encourages different, less productive, decision-making.

Black Kids Aren’t “Illegitimate,” Your Data Comprehension is: Racist Lies About Out-of-Wedlock Birthrates
https://medium.com/@timjwise/black-kids-arent-illegitimate-your-data-comprehension-is-racist-lies-about-out-of-wedlock-836fa501b869
:wavey:

Maybe we should bring back Public stonings and cutting chit off....That might help bring the numbers down.

Didn't see North Korea on the list either, where do you think they fall on the scale?
Since more than 75% go back to prison, that would be one solution.
I don't think a radical Islamic one is correct for us though you may disagree.
I would have no idea where North Korea falls, is that a nation you wish to be compared to?
My guess is they are lower since the only black person there in years has been Dennis Rodman and Jim says it's black culture that drives criminal activity.
He may have impregnated many of them lately, you know how those black guys are, give it a few years and they will catch up.

Prior to the Constitution there was mandatory church attendance in some places. People were also warned out of town so they wouldn’t become a burden on the residents
Should we go back to that?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I didn't say it should be mandatory. I have never said anything that stupid. I said it was a simple solution to many of our problems, and it is People are only interested in easy solutions, and there is no easy solution.

The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture
Americans don't want to imagine that our racist history is actually an ongoing, racist reality.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-source-of-black-poverty-isnt-black-culture-its-american-culture/359937/
This wasn't even driven by Trump.
There is no simple answer.
I could go back to your argument about black abortions and see where that fits into the 70% claim.
White fatherless children are over 30% now also.
I do think that how you grew up has a great effect on how you will live.
What do we do to change that, sink or swim or swimming lessons?

"I could go back to your argument about black abortions and see where that fits into the 70% claim."

Not sure what you mean by that, I'm as opposed to aborting black babies as I am to aborting white babies.

"White fatherless children are over 30% now also"

Yes. a disturbing trend. But 30 < 70.

"I do think that how you grew up has a great effect on how you will live."

Agreed 100%, which is why kids need good parents.

Jim says it's black culture that drives criminal activity.
.

Blacks who embrace traditional family values, do just fine.

In the 1950s, the nation was at the height of racial segregation, and black fatherlessness was less than half of what it is today. Therefore, it's not racism driving this, if it was, fatherlessness would have been higher when racism was more predominant.

Robbing poor people of their ability to rise out of poverty, and making them addicted to welfare instead, is also a stupid and short-sighted policy. And it's a cornerstone of liberalism.

Black Kids Aren’t “Illegitimate,” Your Data Comprehension is: Racist Lies About Out-of-Wedlock Birthrates
https://medium.com/@timjwise/black-kids-arent-illegitimate-your-data-comprehension-is-racist-lies-about-out-of-wedlock-836fa501b869
:wavey:

That article was a desperate, pathetic attempt to deflect from the truth.

I would have no idea where North Korea falls, is that a nation you wish to be compared to?


Well, the list was (supposed to be) the world, NK is part of it.

I mean you compared us to China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia with that list. Is that who you wish to compare us to? Do you think our criminals would get a fairer shake in those countries than here?

The US averages 35 executions a year, China over a 1000....maybe therein lies the answer. I mean they average a 1/4 less incarcerations than the US, but over 30 times as many executions.

Robbing poor people of their ability to rise out of poverty, and making them addicted to welfare instead, is also a stupid and short-sighted policy. And it's a cornerstone of liberalism.

This is what i refer to with Lifeguards or Swimming lessons.
If you had two groups of children and two pools
Group A was given a lifeguard and let loose at the pool.
Group B was given a lifeguard and swimming lessons, then let loose at the pool.
What do you think the result would be at the end of the summer?
I think welfare should be like lifeguards and swimming lessons, both necessary but swimming lessons make lifeguards far less important to swimming. The problem is you can't stop the lessons when they get in water too deep just because.
Some will provide lifeguards because you can't just let them die.
Some will provide lifeguards and swimming lessons because they want them to succeed, but another will cut the swimming lessons because they can just stay out of the pool.

Well, the list was (supposed to be) the world, NK is part of it.

I mean you compared us to China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia with that list. Is that who you wish to compare us to? Do you think our criminals would get a fairer shake in those countries than here?

The US averages 35 executions a year, China over a 1000....maybe therein lies the answer. I mean they average a 1/4 less incarcerations than the US, but over 30 times as many executions.
It is actually really simple.
I don't actually what other countries do, I care what we do.
We have a higher rate of incarceration and recidivism than anyone else in the world.
In the last decade it has had a downward trend but for 40 years before that consistently went up.
Before the 70s it was a consistent percentage pretty common to the rest of the developed world.
If you think that it is worth $400 from every citizen of the US to incarcerate people and are willing to pay more each year, that is your choice. Remember you are paying that to provide the best training for criminals and paying more for it than a college education. I think it could be improved on and other countries have some alternatives that could be considered.

It is actually really simple.
I don't actually what other countries do, I care what we do.
We have a higher rate of incarceration and recidivism than anyone else in the world.
In the last decade it has had a downward trend but for 40 years before that consistently went up.
Before the 70s it was a consistent percentage pretty common to the rest of the developed world.
If you think that it is worth $400 from every citizen of the US to incarcerate people and are willing to pay more each year, that is your choice. Remember you are paying that to provide the best training for criminals and paying more for it than a college education. I think it could be improved on and other countries have some alternatives that could be considered.

I guess the big question would be "Do they deserve to be there?" If they are breaking laws and are being sentenced to prison because of their bad choices, then there isn't really anything that's "Broken".

I guess the big question would be "Do they deserve to be there?" If they are breaking laws and are being sentenced to prison because of their bad choices, then there isn't really anything that's "Broken".

You could argue that our moral compass is broken, leading many to break our laws. But that doesn't mean our criminal justice system is broken.

I guess the big question would be "Do they deserve to be there?" If they are breaking laws and are being sentenced to prison because of their bad choices, then there isn't really anything that's "Broken".
Or has policy helped put them there? The War on Drugs has had a massive impact on incarceration of minorities and many argue it was a racially motivated to begin with.

Or has policy helped put them there? The War on Drugs has had a massive impact on incarceration of minorities and many argue it was a racially motivated to begin with.

Yes or No, Did they or didn't they break the law?

I guess the big question would be "Do they deserve to be there?" If they are breaking laws and are being sentenced to prison because of their bad choices, then there isn't really anything that's "Broken".

You could argue that our moral compass is broken, leading many to break our laws. But that doesn't mean our criminal justice system is broken.

If the goal is to make sure people are punished, then it works perfectly and crime increasing is an unfortunate but necessary byproduct.
I would assume you have never made a bad choice, and if you have luck has been on your side or you could afford good representation.

If the goal is to make sure people are punished, then it works perfectly and crime increasing is an unfortunate but necessary byproduct.
I would assume you have never made a bad choice, and if you have luck has been on your side or you could afford good representation.

"If the goal is to make sure people are punished"

HOW ABOUT IF THE GOAL IS TO PREVENT DANGEROUS PEOPLE FROM HURTING INNOCENT PEOPLE? Has that aspect ever crossed your mind? You sure don't seem to give that any consideration.

"If the goal is to make sure people are punished"

HOW ABOUT IF THE GOAL IS TO PREVENT DANGEROUS PEOPLE FROM HURTING INNOCENT PEOPLE?



that's pretty racist

Yes or No, Did they or didn't they break the law?
It's not a yes or no question.

Yes or No, Did they or didn't they break the law?

The asylum seekers, no.
The undocumented/illegals, yes.

that's pretty racist

That's me, always wearing a white sheet.

The asylum seekers, no.
The undocumented/illegals, yes.
I think he was talking about any minority ever busted on a drug charge.

It's not a yes or no question.

Yes, yes it is.

People don’t just walk down the street, slip on a banana peel, and ooooops land in prison.

They break the law, get arrested, go to trial, are found guilty, and get sentenced.
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The asylum seekers, no.
The undocumented/illegals, yes.

I agree, asylum seekers usually ask 1st
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I think he was talking about any minority ever busted on a drug charge.

Way to bring race into the conversation.

What’s a matter, was I making to much sense and you went for the usual trump card......RACIST!!!
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Yes, yes it is.

People don’t just walk down the street, slip on a banana peel, and ooooops land in prison.
True, not if you're white. At least much less likely.

Way to bring race into the conversation.


....RACIST!!!


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I'd be shocked if they didn't...

Haha, Spence is having a tough time quite often as of late. You guys should stop putting him in an awkward position. He should not have to explain his thought process.
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Yes, yes it is.

People don’t just walk down the street, slip on a banana peel, and ooooops land in prison.

They break the law, get arrested, go to trial, are found guilty, and get sentenced.
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They go to trial, where they have due process, they have an attorney, and there is a significant burden that gets met before anyone goes to prison. It ain't perfect, but it's the best system there is.

Haha, Spence is having a tough time quite often as of late. You guys should stop putting him in an awkward position. He should not have to explain his thought process.
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He is really coming un-glued.

Those were questions for Jim, why would I answer for him?
He seems to be quite capable, though I might disagree with his opinions.
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If I was interested in his answer I would have asked him. I asked you why don't you give some answers in response to the list of questions you posed to Jim.

I also asked you what you would do to stop illegals from their misdemeanor activity of illegal border crossing? Would lowering our incarceration rate do the trick? Would it be fixed by answering the questions you posed to Jim such as: "What do you think people learn in prison? Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society? Do they learn how to be more successful at life from other criminals? Why do you think white people do not commit crimes? Is our crime rate because we do not have a lily white society? Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here?"

Would you simply do nothing? Would you do what past administrations did, which did not stop the misdemeaning. Would you punish the misdemeanors by giving them "a path to citizenship" or just letting them stay on some other basis? Would that stop the misdemeanor activity?

What the administration is doing seems appropriate to me. What would you do?

Clearly many feel the journey is worth the risk.

Clearly, all criminals feel crime is worth the risk. And, clearly, criminals do not think they should be punished.

If the status quo is unsustainable you have to change.

To which status quo are you referring? The national debt? The overextended welfare state? The relative ease of illegal immigration that is clearly worth the risk?

Just curious if he really practices what he's preached. I'd note even Jeff Session's own church rejected his biblical justification.

Why do you care, and how does what Jim practices re his religion impact his opinions about secular law--you know, that separation of church and state thingy?

Pet F., I watched your The Gods Must Be Crazy movie. Twas interesting. Maybe you could watch this video a say a few words about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTvwhiD3FdU

"If the goal is to make sure people are punished"

HOW ABOUT IF THE GOAL IS TO PREVENT DANGEROUS PEOPLE FROM HURTING INNOCENT PEOPLE? Has that aspect ever crossed your mind? You sure don't seem to give that any consideration.
If with our current system we have 75% recidivism how does that stop anything for more than a few years.
There are no absolutes in life, you can no more stop crime with prison than by having more guns.
Do you think all criminals are inherently evil? And all people who have not been charged with a crime good?
I didn’t say we should not have jails, but that we should use them judiciously.
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If with our current system we have 75% recidivism how does that stop anything for more than a few years.
There are no absolutes in life, you can no more stop crime with prison than by having more guns.
Do you think all criminals are inherently evil? And all people who have not been charged with a crime good?
I didn’t say we should not have jails, but that we should use them judiciously.
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"If with our current system we have 75% recidivism how does that stop anything for more than a few years."

How many people can a bad person hurt in "a few years"? A lot. You haven't given this much thought. Put down the Kool Aid for ten seconds, and think.

"Do you think all criminals are inherently evil?"

No. Some are unlucky.

Pet F., I watched your The Gods Must Be Crazy movie. Twas interesting. Maybe you could watch this video a say a few words about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTvwhiD3FdU

His mother must have abused him.
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His mother must have abused him.
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Who are you referring to and why do you say that?

"If with our current system we have 75% recidivism how does that stop anything for more than a few years."

How many people can a bad person hurt in "a few years"? A lot. You haven't given this much thought. Put down the Kool Aid for ten seconds, and think.

"Do you think all criminals are inherently evil?"

No. Some are unlucky.
Read this, I’m not suggesting no prisons
http://time.com/4596081/incarceration-report/
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Who are you referring to and why do you say that?

Stephan Molyneux
Are you a disciple?
Do you believe that most Mexicans abuse their children and are basically retarded?
He reminds me of an #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& I worked with once. He told us about how he was a Promisekeeper and only ate healthy food.
I was kind of impressed till I happened to stop at a convenience store where he was at the register with a couple of porn mags and a handful of candy bars.
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If with our current system we have 75% recidivism how does that stop anything

I think we need far fewer prisons


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shouldn't you ask the recidivists?

if the US has 655 people incarcerated per 100,000 and 75% are recidivists...the other 99,345 are some how navigating life without incarceration for the most part, even poor and minorities....I guess reducing the number of prisons and the ability to incarcerate would be a great way to reduce the number of incarcerated and get to your magic number of acceptable incarcerations despite the actual crime being committed and "recitivated"....

???
Virgin Islands (United Kingdom) 470
Bahamas 438
Seychelles 437

Read this, I’m not suggesting no prisons
http://time.com/4596081/incarceration-report/
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shouldn't you ask the recidivists?

if the US has 655 people incarcerated per 100,000 and 75% are recidivists...the other 99,345 are some how navigating life without incarceration for the most part, even poor and minorities....I guess reducing the number of prisons and the ability to incarcerate would be a great way to reduce the number of incarcerated and get to your magic number of acceptable incarcerations despite the actual crime being committed and "recitivated"....

???
Virgin Islands (United Kingdom) 470
Bahamas 438
Seychelles 437
It all depends on what you think is a worthwhile investment, just throwing money away to warehouse non dangerous people is a waste in my view.
Maybe you don't know what it means
Definition of recidivism
: a tendency to relapse into a previous condition or mode of behavior; especially : relapse into criminal behavior

Stephan Molyneux
Are you a disciple?

No. I am no ones disciple. I think for myself. Do you think in terms of being a disciple? Are you someone's disciple?

There are a lot of videos on the net that discredit the medias use of these children in order to demonize Trump. Molyneux is usually more comprehensive yet compact in his approach.

Do you believe that most Mexicans abuse their children . . .?

He didn't say that. He did what you seem to like doing. He cited several statistics and sourced them . . . as in 2012 five out of 10 children in Mexico suffered some form of violence . . . in 2013 seven out of 10 did. In 2014 sexual violence against minors rose 73% from 2013 in Mexico. Mexico ranks first in rates of physical violence and sexual abuse and homicide of children under 14. Mexico ranks second in money generated by sex trafficking with minors. It ranks second to Thailand in child pornography. And the video claims that these abuses lead to patterns of behavior later in life such as gangs and inherited behavior toward children. He mentions the trip to the US being controlled by Mexican cartels where girls are raped along the way.


No, he doesn't say that most Mexicans abuse their children. He says that "on average" (all the miserable statistics) Mexicans are terrible to their children.

and are basically retarded?
No, he says the average IQ in Mexico is in the high 80's. That is a documented statistic, not his opinion.


He reminds me of an #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& I worked with once. He told us about how he was a Promisekeeper and only ate healthy food.
I was kind of impressed till I happened to stop at a convenience store where he was at the register with a couple of porn mags and a handful of candy bars.
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Molyneux has not been found, to my knowledge, to be a hypocrite. He is a high IQ type that tends to annoy some people. But I haven't found any credible refutation of things that I heard him say.

And he said a lot of things in the video. He also summarized the Lowry article that Scottw posted and no one responded to. His point being that the left is hyping up false rage in order to make Trump look evil or something.

I was hoping you might discuss that. But my hope was tenuous. I mostly figured you would do what you did. As with the Lowry article, in general, crickets were provoked. But you did manage to employ the time tested cheap trick of trying to kill the messenger with false accusations rather than discussing the message.

Well done.