GDP growth for the second quarter was +4.1%, second highest in 15 years [Archive] - Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

Jim in CT

07-27-2018, 10:58 AM

I know GDP Growth is Good for the economy

1) but is it sustainable ? and down side

2) how does it help people like us on this site (outside investments we may or may not have ) Seeing wages are stale interest rates are up and deficits are all time High and the threat of inflation always around the corner

4) what is Tax Revenue % is in the 4.1 GDP

I prefer the The Tortoise and the Hare: or something in the middle when it comes to the economy

"1) but is it sustainable ? and down side "

I don't know I fit's sustainable, it doesn't usually increase at 4% for long.

What's the downside? Can you tell me? Is there any benefit to less growth in GDP?

") how does it help people like us on this site (outside investments we may or may not have )"

Most of us have money in the stock market in some form (401k, IRA, pension). When the economy grows, the feds get more tax revenue than when the economy shrinks, which means more money to fund SS and Medicare. I can't see how most people don't benefit in some way.

"Seeing wages are stale "
If wages are stale, jobs ar eat least more secure than when the economy is doing poorly. Isn't that stability, or confidence, worth something?

"rates are up"

Interest rates had nowhere to go but up.

"deficits are all time High "

Ummm. is that true? Deficits are higher than Obama's deficits? The debt is at an all time high, I don't know about deficits...

You went on and on and on about the potential pitfalls. You're desperate for reasons to show that the economy isn't as healthy as some claim it is. Rooting for failure, I guess.

Don't worry, be patient, the recession is coming, and you can blame Trump.

Nebe

07-27-2018, 11:30 AM

So when does Trump own the results in your mind? As soon as the recession starts?

Yep
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zimmy

07-27-2018, 11:48 AM

Jim, since we like analogies here and given that you often seem high 😀 (just kidding, couldn't resist) here is one that explains why I have concerns about his economic policies and am not jumping up and down: Trump's policies are like snorting coke. The first few minutes of the high are not the time to evaluate the net effects of snorting coke.
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Jim in CT

07-27-2018, 01:39 PM

Jim, since we like analogies here and given that you often seem high �� (just kidding, couldn't resist) here is one that explains why I have concerns about his economic policies and am not jumping up and down: Trump's policies are like snorting coke. The first few minutes of the high are not the time to evaluate the net effects of snorting coke.
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OK, you compare it to snorting coke, you think it's a short term pump and dump.

But why? Why do you think it's something that won't last? What is he doing, exactly, that's going to fizzle out, and then disappear, only to leave us with a bad hangover?

I know that you want that to happen so that he looks bad, I get that. But why do you think that's going to happen?

In my opinion, if Hilary was POTUS and she did the same exact things, you'd say she was an economic genius. That's my issue with liberals.

zimmy

07-27-2018, 02:42 PM

OK, you compare it to snorting coke, you think it's a short term pump and dump.

But why? Why do you think it's something that won't last? What is he doing, exactly, that's going to fizzle out, and then disappear, only to leave us with
I know that you want that to happen so that he looks bad, I get that. But why do you think that's going to happen?

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I am not sure why you think you know what I want. I am hardly liberal. I am moderate. I loved Reagan as a kid. I was terrified when Bush 1 lost reelection. Clinton was scum, but his policies were moderate and generally on point and I grew to be ok with all the non scum bag stuff. Bush 2 was an idiot and took us to war over oil against his father's advice and he had morons in Rumsfeld and Cheney who pushed his buttons and the reasons for war during lead up to it changed every time they turned out to be bogus. Yes I think Trump's policies are stupid. He lies to people in coal country about the cause of their job losses, he mortgaged the future and hardly changed the path of the middle class when the economy was already strong. History shows such policy leads to short term burst in the economy, but then fizzles and stalls with inflation. Add in his tariffs and unless you are a partisan fool or a person trying to buy votes can see they are totally policies and a few months of numbers aren't enough to measure the net effects. If the country ends up worse off as a result, that is bad. If Hillary elected similar policies, I would be saying I think it is stupid and regardless too soon to think my camper was covered, especially in a state like CT and especially before a full year under the tax policies.

Jim in CT

07-27-2018, 03:05 PM

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I am not sure why you think you know what I want. I am hardly liberal. I am moderate. I loved Reagan as a kid. I was terrified when Bush 1 lost reelection. Clinton was scum, but his policies were moderate and generally on point and I grew to be ok with all the non scum bag stuff. Bush 2 was an idiot and took us to war over oil against his father's advice and he had morons in Rumsfeld and Cheney who pushed his buttons and the reasons for war during lead up to it changed every time they turned out to be bogus. Yes I think Trump's policies are stupid. He lies to people in coal country about the cause of their job losses, he mortgaged the future and hardly changed the path of the middle class when the economy was already strong. History shows such policy leads to short term burst in the economy, but then fizzles and stalls with inflation. Add in his tariffs and unless you are a partisan fool or a person trying to buy votes can see they are totally policies and a few months of numbers aren't enough to measure the net effects. If the country ends up worse off as a result, that is bad. If Hillary elected similar policies, I would be saying I think it is stupid and regardless too soon to think my camper was covered, especially in a state like CT and especially before a full year under the tax policies.

"I am not sure why you think you know what I want"

For starters, when you learned that the GDP growth was the second highest in 15 years, your reaction was to launch a campaign of information on why that's not really a good thing. I read your posts. They aren't ambiguous.

"I am hardly liberal"

you say so...

"Clinton was scum, but his policies were moderate and generally on point "

Agreed. Especially his economic policy, which consisted of signing the budgets that Newt Gingrich crafted., and then getting all the credit for the amazing results.

"Bush 2 was an idiot and took us to war over oil "

Not close to true, it's a cherished chant of the left. Sorry, not that you are a liberal.

Tell the AIDS victims in Africa who are alive thanks to Bush's AIDS plan, over one million human beings, that he was an idiot. Educated at Yale and Harvard, which are the credentials people use to convince me how smart Obama was. Meh.

"hardly changed the path of the middle class "

He has done more for the middle class than his predecessor. Tax cuts and lower unemployment, more job security...

"History shows such policy leads to short term burst in the economy, but then fizzles and stalls with inflation"

You still aren't specifying which "policies" are historically shown to cause more pain than they cure. You seem like someone who wants to say "his policies are bad" again and again, until we all accept that it's true. You can't just say "his policies will cause short term gain and long term pain". How about some support for that statement? You got anything?

"If Hillary elected similar policies, I would be saying I think it is stupid "

You say so.

That post was a lot of fizz, short on gin.

zimmy

07-27-2018, 03:07 PM

Pete F.

07-27-2018, 03:14 PM

Gin from the Den
The announcement Friday that America’s gross domestic product (GDP) grew at an annualized rate of 4.1 percent in the second quarter of this year was immediately seized on by President Trump to promote the benefits of the tax cuts he signed into law and his other economic policies.

But despite the good news now, the U.S. economy is unlikely to look so good on Election Day on Nov. 6 – and that could spell trouble for Republicans.

President Trump and congressional Republicans are counting on a strong economy to help them hold onto their majorities in the U.S. House and Senate in the midterm elections, when the party in the White House typically loses seats.

"These numbers are very sustainable,” the president said, sounding an optimistic note. “This isn't a one-time shot. ... Next quarter, I think it's going to be outstanding.”

The growth in GDP in the second quarter was nearly double the previous quarter’s growth and the strongest level in four years. But the strong numbers are marginally lower than many anticipated.

Economists surveyed by Bloomberg were expecting 4.2 percent growth. The Wall Street Journal had predicted a rate of growth as high as 4.5 percent. And President Trump suggested earlier the growth of GDP could hit 4.8 percent.

In the game of expectations, any underperformance could spell disaster for Republican chances to hold their congressional majorities in November.

Importantly, the Congressional Budget Office and Federal Reserve both say they expect the strong second quarter growth will not last. They believe the economy will stagnate in the coming years.

This is because the growth we saw in the second quarter was powered by one-time factors that will not occur again.

Economists have collectively agreed that the coming quarters will see far slower growth for two central reasons.

The first argument that growth is unsustainable is the disproportionate amount of exports the U.S. had in the second quarter. Companies abroad were buying U.S. products as fast they could in an attempt to avoid being hit by retaliatory tariffs foreign nations imposed on America after President Trump slapped tariffs on foreign steel and aluminum, along with products from China.

President Trump has also threatened to impose more tariffs on more products imported into the U.S., leading to fears that a full-scale global trade war will pit America against nations around the world.

The increase in U.S. exports unquestionably raised the GDP in the second quarter – but because the increase was temporary, its benefits will not last.

In fact, the second quarter increase in exports is actually a red flag warning of trouble ahead. After purchasing so much from the U.S. in the second quarter, foreign nations will be importing less in the current quarter because they will be using up what they have already bought and stockpiled.

Another reason that our GDP growth is unsustainable is that the increase in consumer spending in the second quarter won’t last.

According to Robert Murphy, an associate professor of economics at Boston College: "You can pump up demand in the short term – that's what a tax cut does. But you can't sustain it because you're not going to have the resources to keep pushing at that rate."

Essentially, a tax cut makes people feel temporarily wealthier, so they spend more when they see they are paying less in taxes. But this instant affluence fades as people develop a more conscientious grasp on their income and eventually spending decreases, returning to a normal pattern.

These factors all spell trouble for the economy and Republicans as we approach the midterm elections.

In June I argued that if the Republicans are to hold onto control of the Senate and House in November they must convince voters the GOP will do a better job managing the nation’s economy. But if economic growth is not sustained and wages remain stagnant, Republicans will have a hard time running on an economic platform.

An increase of 4.1 percent in GDP is surely something to be proud of, but if this growth slows, President Trump will not be able to validate his immense tax cuts and increasing deficit spending.

In fact, the third quarter’s growth percentage will be released at the end of October – just a week before the midterm elections take place. If the increase in GDP is much lower than expected, Republicans run the risk of losing key voters who were promised a consistently strong and expanding economy due to the tax cuts supported by Republicans and opposed by congressional Democrats.

And you can be sure that Democrats will remind voters that the tax cuts will push up America’s budget deficit to an estimated $804 billion this year. Even after economic factors are considered, the deficit will balloon well past $1 trillion and continue growing at an alarming rate in the years ahead. This will force the federal government to spend billions of dollars more just to pay interest on the ballooning national debt.

If wages do not rise and hardworking Americans fail to see continuous and tangible positive economic impacts, they will certainly have something to say come November – and what they say at the ballot box will not be good news for President Trump and Republicans.

Douglas E. Schoen is a Fox News contributor. He has more than 30 years experience as a pollster and political consultant. His new book is "Putin's Master Plan".. Follow him on Twitter @DouglasESchoen.

Jim in CT

07-27-2018, 03:58 PM

Pete, as I said, anyone can find someone who writes a piece that makes a point you are trying to make. I can post 25 articles saying that the GDP growth means Trump is a genius. That doesn't make it so.

I do find Schoen to be thoughtful and not blindly partisan, though he is a liberal, a Clinton colleague.

He said one thing that was dead on. When the next quarter's growth comes out, it will be just before the midterms, and it will matter. If growth is north of 3.5%, what will the democrats say about the economy? What can they even pretend to promise? More and more free stuff? That seems to be their plan...

Jim in CT

07-27-2018, 04:02 PM

It took about 2 years after Reagan's second tax cut on the wealthy until start of a recession and about 2 1/2 for Bush 2.
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Also, you asked why, I gave you investor concerns. Those weren't my opinions. You want to know why anyone might have concern, that is why. The high from the cocaine doesn't mean the cocaine is a great idea.

But the way, Also, you asked why, I gave you investor concerns. That is different then us just coming out and saying they are bad policies. You want us to agree with you so you can feel good about yourself. Find another source than this forum if you need your ego stoked.

"It took about 2 years after Reagan's second tax cut on the wealthy until start of a recession and about 2 1/2 for Bush 2."

And you provided exactly zero evidence that the tax cuts caused the recession. Maybe they helped delay the recession, maybe it made the recession less bad. I don't know. Neither do you. Obama also cut taxes, maybe those will be the cause of the next recession?

"Also, you asked why, I gave you investor concerns"

An article written by someone that neither of us has ever heard of.

I've never actually heard, until now, that high GDP growth was bad. If your pay or net worth increases, that's a bad sign?
What I see, are people who are so desperate to make this guy look bad, that if he says "two and two are four", you'd disagree.

spence

07-27-2018, 04:29 PM

I've never actually heard, until now, that high GDP growth was bad. If your pay or net worth increases, that's a bad sign?
Because it's not healthy growth. The GDP is being driven mostly by foreign purchases of US goods in advance of the tariffs. Why? Because soon they're not going to be buying as much of our stuff.

Small and mid-sized businesses can't buffer this kind of whiplash, they're just going to fold.

zimmy

07-27-2018, 04:54 PM

"It took about 2 years after Reagan's second tax cut on the wealthy until start of a recession and about 2 1/2 for Bush 2."

And you provided exactly zero evidence that the tax cuts caused the recession. Maybe they helped delay the recession, maybe it made the recession less bad. I don't know. Neither do you. Obama also cut taxes, maybe those will be the cause of the next recession?

"Also, you asked why, I gave you investor concerns"

An article written by someone that neither of us has ever heard of.

I've never actually heard, until now, that high GDP growth was bad. If your pay or net worth increases, that's a bad sign?
What I see, are people who are so desperate to make this guy look bad, that if he says "two and two are four", you'd disagree.
You see what you want to see. I am starting to waste time with you again so forgive when I stop responding. Obama also cut payroll taxes and slightly raised the top marginal income tax rates. Clinton raised it too. In both cases they were followed by steady long term economic growth. I specifically referred to top rates. KO3blpb gets a wait and see at best from me based on the reality of how this worked in the past, not a reach around like you want to give him.
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Jim in CT

07-27-2018, 06:20 PM

Because it's not healthy growth. The GDP is being driven mostly by foreign purchases of US goods in advance of the tariffs. Why? Because soon they're not going to be buying as much of our stuff.

Small and mid-sized businesses can't buffer this kind of whiplash, they're just going to fold.

what would gdp growth have been, if not for the one time run up in purchases of us giids. and if trump and the eu agreed to work toward zero tariffs, then what are the tariffs that everyone is so afraid of, that they’re stockpiling today.

businesses can’t survuve a one time surge in demand? even if that’s what this is, which is a bug if, it’s better that the surge in demand never happened? how does that make sense? i can’t win piwetball every year, that doesn’t mean it’s bad if i win once.
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Jim in CT

07-27-2018, 06:23 PM

You see what you want to see. I am starting to waste time with you again so forgive when I stop responding. Obama also cut payroll taxes and slightly raised the top marginal income tax rates. Clinton raised it too. In both cases they were followed by steady long term economic growth. I specifically referred to top rates. KO3blpb gets a wait and see at best from me based on the reality of how this worked in the past, not a reach around like you want to give him.
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yes, clinton and obama’s tax cuts were followed by growth. how do you know, how could you know, that trumps cuts won’t also be followed by growth? the answer, is because you are the one who sees what he wants to see, and with trump in charge, what you want to see us trump failure. we may go into a recession tomorrow, we might grow for five more years . you don’t know. but you’re assuming we won’t.
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JohnR

07-28-2018, 08:52 AM

I know GDP Growth is Good for the economy

1) but is it sustainable ? and down side

Sustainable over decades? Hopefully. Sustainable quarter to quarter? No.

Obama stated 2% growth was probably the new normal and we should get used to it. He hit 3% one or two quarters IIRC. GDP growth averaged 3.6% from WW2 to the Great Recession. Some years were very high some were lean. Be nice to get back on the high 3s rather than the low 2s.

2) how does it help people like us on this site (outside investments we may or may not have ) Seeing wages are stale interest rates are up and deficits are all time High and the threat of inflation always around the corner

Interest rates have been artificially low for a decade - they should have gone up (hate that thought) previously. Wayne - on the outside if the economy is slow people are not working - think of 2008-2011 how bad it was.

4) what is Tax Revenue % is in the 4.1 GDP

A lot more than if GDP was 3, or 2

I prefer the The Tortoise and the Hare: or something in the middle when it comes to the economy

:rotf2:

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I am not sure why you think you know what I want. I am hardly liberal. I am moderate.

Then how are you and I both moderates ; ) ?

spence

07-28-2018, 09:10 AM

Obama stated 2% growth was probably the new normal and we should get used to it. He hit 3% one or two quarters IIRC.
Under Obama we hit over 4 several times and one quarter over 5.
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zimmy

07-28-2018, 12:35 PM

Then how are you and I both moderates ; ) ?

Based on your posts, it seems to me you have shifted more and more right over the last decade. You are anti Obama and his policies, particularly economy, were mostly moderate. I would have pegged you as more tea party than moderate. Socially I am liberal or libertarian in that I don't want people like Jim deciding what is right for other people or the correct family values. Pretty sure it is moderate to think we need border control, but not a billions of dollars ineffective wall. It is moderate to believe the people coming are generally good people in terrible situations and not the b.s. that they are rapists, murders, etc. Ya know, pretty much the same things Reagan believed. I think tax cuts are best focused on the middle class and that payroll tax cuts are particularly helpful. Top tax rates shouldn't be 90 or 70 percent, but cutting top tax rates, which were relatively low, during a strong economy is not necessarily smart policy. And yes I am liberal orelated to fishing in that I have been angry for 12 years at the rate people kill big fish because it is stupid and harmful and generally done to stroke the egos of the insecure.
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zimmy

07-28-2018, 12:46 PM

yes, clinton and obama’s tax cuts were followed by growth. how do you know, how could you know, that trumps cuts won’t also be followed by growth? the answer, is because you are the one who sees what he wants to see,
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Steady long term economic growth is what I said. How do I know Trump's won't be? I don't but his tax bill was not the type that typically followed by sustained growth. I said wait and see. How could I see the results when it has only been a few months? I shouldn't have used the cocaine analogy with you, it should have been lsd since you seem to be hallucinating and see things that haven't happened yet.
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wdmso

07-28-2018, 01:04 PM

"1) but is it sustainable ? and down side "

I don't know I fit's sustainable, it doesn't usually increase at 4% for long.

What's the downside? Can you tell me? Is there any benefit to less growth in GDP?

") how does it help people like us on this site (outside investments we may or may not have )"

Most of us have money in the stock market in some form (401k, IRA, pension). When the economy grows, the feds get more tax revenue than when the economy shrinks, which means more money to fund SS and Medicare. I can't see how most people don't benefit in some way.

"Seeing wages are stale "
If wages are stale, jobs ar eat least more secure than when the economy is doing poorly. Isn't that stability, or confidence, worth something?

"rates are up"

Interest rates had nowhere to go but up.

"deficits are all time High "

Ummm. is that true? Deficits are higher than Obama's deficits? The debt is at an all time high, I don't know about deficits...

You went on and on and on about the potential pitfalls. You're desperate for reasons to show that the economy isn't as healthy as some claim it is. Rooting for failure, I guess.

Don't worry, be patient, the recession is coming, and you can blame Trump.

All I am saying you and others are all giddy about the Numbers which now seem to mean something now Trump is in office

As I said out side of 401k or investments ... I have not seen how this trickles down to regular Americans Paychecks.. not then or now so who is really making out?

Seem's benefits of a booming GDP the windfalls are not as easy as GDP potential pitfalls to List

PaulS

07-28-2018, 02:31 PM

Don't know if it's been stated but analysts I heard on the radio yesterday said the purchase of soybeans added about 1% of that growth.
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JohnR

07-29-2018, 01:45 PM

Based on your posts, it seems to me you have shifted more and more right over the last decade. You are anti Obama and his policies, particularly economy, were mostly moderate. I would have pegged you as more tea party than moderate. Socially I am liberal or libertarian in that I don't want people like Jim deciding what is right for other people or the correct family values. Pretty sure it is moderate to think we need border control, but not a billions of dollars ineffective wall. It is moderate to believe the people coming are generally good people in terrible situations and not the b.s. that they are rapists, murders, etc. Ya know, pretty much the same things Reagan believed. I think tax cuts are best focused on the middle class and that payroll tax cuts are particularly helpful. Top tax rates shouldn't be 90 or 70 percent, but cutting top tax rates, which were relatively low, during a strong economy is not necessarily smart policy. And yes I am liberal orelated to fishing in that I have been angry for 12 years at the rate people kill big fish because it is stupid and harmful and generally done to stroke the egos of the insecure.
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Hahaha ; )

I am more Libertarian but sadly cannot trust enough of the populace to handle a libertarian society - they just can't ; )

Yes - some basic views of Tea Party; low taxes, low intrusion by Gov, let others be, that overlap, that intersection, is where I would like to see things.

I like some of what Obama did but I am critical of other things. Not sure I moved right much. I know the left moved (and is moving) more left.

Ohhh, and clearly fighting stuff like the straw ban is a near RW militia view ; )

zimmy

07-29-2018, 03:48 PM

Hahaha ; )

I am more Libertarian but sadly cannot trust enough of the populace to handle a libertarian society - they just can't ; )

Yes - some basic views of Tea Party; low taxes, low intrusion by Gov, let others be, that overlap, that intersection, is where I would like to see things.

I like some of what Obama did but I am critical of other things. Not sure I moved right much. I know the left moved (and is moving) more left.

Ohhh, and clearly fighting stuff like the straw ban is a near RW militia view ; )

I didn't know you were fighting a straw ban. It is nuts that so many straws are used and end up in the ocean that it had come to this. Just like the populace can't handle libertarian society, it also can't handle making intelligent decisions about waste and waste management. That left enough for you?
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Sea Dangles

07-29-2018, 04:10 PM

They also can't handle soft drinks,is that stupid enough too?
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JohnR

07-29-2018, 05:07 PM

I didn't know you were fighting a straw ban. It is nuts that so many straws are used and end up in the ocean that it had come to this. Just like the populace can't handle libertarian society, it also can't handle making intelligent decisions about waste and waste management. That left enough for you?
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I throw my trash away, would you believe, in trash barrels. I recycle when it is the right thing to do. I am willing to bet you do too

We'll be at 30 trillion in debt in another decade but golly gee, we won't have plastic straws

zimmy

07-29-2018, 05:38 PM

I throw my trash away, would you believe, in trash barrels. I recycle when it is the right thing to do. I am willing to bet you do too

We'll be at 30 trillion in debt in another decade but golly gee, we won't have plastic straws

There are 9 billion tons of plastic going in the ocean each year. It is calculated that there are 8 billion straws on the world's shorelines. They aren't recyclable, they aren't necessary, there are alternatives. The ones you use might end up in the trash, but there are 500 million used per day in this country and lots of those don't get in the trash and lots that do still end up in water ways. It is a simple fix to a major problem.Much easier than fixing the budget. I do trash them but I also haven't used one unless it was put in my cup without asking me in probably 20 years. I worry more about the affects of plastic on marine ecosystems than I do about someone's straw for their cup of Sprite.
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Sea Dangles

07-29-2018, 06:59 PM

Oh my

Zimmy is on to something.🤡
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The Dad Fisherman

07-30-2018, 05:42 AM

They also can't handle soft drinks,is that stupid enough too?
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My personal favorite is how they want to change the voting age to 16 because kids are so much smarter these days, but want to raise the smoking age to 21 because kids just arent that smart at 18 :huh:

Sea Dangles

07-30-2018, 06:46 PM

My #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& sister in law thinks we should ban cars that can exceed 75mph
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JohnR

08-02-2018, 09:07 AM

There are 9 billion tons of plastic going in the ocean each year. It is calculated that there are 8 billion straws on the world's shorelines. They aren't recyclable, they aren't necessary, there are alternatives. The ones you use might end up in the trash, but there are 500 million used per day in this country and lots of those don't get in the trash and lots that do still end up in water ways. It is a simple fix to a major problem.Much easier than fixing the budget. I do trash them but I also haven't used one unless it was put in my cup without asking me in probably 20 years. I worry more about the affects of plastic on marine ecosystems than I do about someone's straw for their cup of Sprite.
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US Plastic Straws - a terrible terrible gross mismanagement of the world ecosystem.

http://www.northeastern.edu/rugglesmedia/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Pollution-by-countries-Graph1-945x627.jpg
Linky: http://www.northeastern.edu/rugglesmedia/2017/02/08/plastic-pollution-and-our-oceans-what-everyone-should-know/

Now it really is a problem, but a small one. It is TERRIBLY effective as fuel for the OutrageMachine, for both sides.

Next you won't be able to meltdown your straws in order to print an AR15 with a highcapacity semiautoclip.

spence

08-02-2018, 09:41 AM

US Plastic Straws - a terrible terrible gross mismanagement of the world ecosystem.

http://www.northeastern.edu/rugglesmedia/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Pollution-by-countries-Graph1-945x627.jpg
Linky: http://www.northeastern.edu/rugglesmedia/2017/02/08/plastic-pollution-and-our-oceans-what-everyone-should-know/

Now it really is a problem, but a small one. It is TERRIBLY effective as fuel for the OutrageMachine, for both sides.

Next you won't be able to meltdown your straws in order to print an AR15 with a highcapacity semiautoclip.
How much of China's mismanaged plastic originated in other nations?

The Dad Fisherman

08-02-2018, 09:42 AM

:hee:

detbuch

08-02-2018, 10:02 AM

How much of China's mismanaged plastic originated in other nations?

So other nations have to be penalized for China's mismanagement? I don't think we want to go down that road.

zimmy

08-02-2018, 10:29 AM

So other nations have to be penalized for China's mismanagement? I don't think we want to go down that road.

I read that as we are in the top 20 of plastic pollution. There are 195 countries so we are in the top 10% of contributors. Because china is worse we should ignore it? Seems like a pretty low standard to set. Outrage machine? The outraged seem to be all the children crying in the street over the fact that they won't get a straw at McDonald's. Never mind, I haven't seen that. Without this forum, I wouldn't have known anyone would be outraged.
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The Dad Fisherman

08-02-2018, 10:44 AM

I read that as we are in the top 20 of plastic pollution. There are 195 countries so we are in the top 10% of contributors. Because china is worse we should ignore it? Seems like a pretty low standard to set. Outrage machine? The outraged seem to be all the children crying in the street over the fact that they won't get a straw at McDonald's. Never mind, I haven't seen that. Without this forum, I wouldn't have known anyone would be outraged.
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I guess some just can't comprehend that it isn't really about the straws, its about the Ban.

zimmy

08-02-2018, 10:59 AM

:hee:

Funny. But, and I am sure the faux news types won't tell you this, straws aren't banned outright in the places that have done it. It is a restaurant and bar ban. That little girl can take her straw anywhere she wants. Like they used to say at the end of gi Joe, knowing is half the battle.
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zimmy

08-02-2018, 11:03 AM

I guess some just can't comprehend that it isn't really about the straws, its about the Ban.

I know that is what it is about for some of you. Poor personal freedom infringed now if you go to Seattle they won't stick a plastic straw in your soda without asking like they did last year. What is this world coming to?
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JohnR

08-02-2018, 11:19 AM

How much of China's mismanaged plastic originated in other nations?

Dunno - persoanlly I think it should bre recycled and ground here and then reused.

How much of the world's mismanaged plastic originated from China?

But going with your premise - how far do you want to go back with the plastic? To the middle East as oil / petroleum products? Dinosaurs? This is a good point - let's ban Dinosaurs and other Prehistoric Flora and Fauna For Little Sally's straw ; )

Funny. But, and I am sure the faux news types won't tell you this, straws aren't banned outright in the places that have done it. It is a restaurant and bar ban. That little girl can take her straw anywhere she wants. Like they used to say at the end of gi Joe, knowing is half the battle.
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The whole entire notion is ludicrous, that banning of straws anywhere will truly curtail the plastioceanic gyres that blight the oceans.

Want to fight pollution? Fine the people polluting. There are existing laws for this, rarely enforced. Start there.

I read that as we are in the top 20 of plastic pollution. There are 195 countries so we are in the top 10% of contributors. Because china is worse we should ignore it? Seems like a pretty low standard to set. Outrage machine? The outraged seem to be all the children crying in the street over the fact that they won't get a straw at McDonald's. Never mind, I haven't seen that. Without this forum, I wouldn't have known anyone would be outraged.
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And by the above NEU study we are 1/20th what the leading producer of tonnes of plastic pollution. If you add all other 175 producers we probably 1/30th of total plastipollution. But Santa Barbara will feel good they did something goshdarnit ; )

Someone needs to print a Rascinate out of recycled Plastic Straws, next to their AR15

The Dad Fisherman

08-02-2018, 11:21 AM

Funny. But, and I am sure the faux news types won't tell you this, straws aren't banned outright in the places that have done it. It is a restaurant and bar ban. That little girl can take her straw anywhere she wants. Like they used to say at the end of gi Joe, knowing is half the battle.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Its not like the restaurants got together and said, this is a good idea, lets do it. The city councils are directing them to do it. Government taking time out of their busy days to legislate....straws...because......Turtles. Glad you're OK with that. Explains a lot

Glad to see that everything you learned in life you learned from GI Joe....explains even more.

The Dad Fisherman

08-02-2018, 11:31 AM

But going with your premise - how far do you want to go back with the plastic? To the middle East as oil / petroleum products? Dinosaurs? This is a good point - let's ban Dinosaurs and other Prehistoric Flora and Fauna For Little Sally's straw ; )

I think the Democratic Senators from California are in the process of introducing a bill called "The Extinct Species Protection Act" in the hopes of sustaining the numbers of all species currently listed as Extinct. Keeping these numbers at a Sustainable level will cost the tax payers, but it will be worth it in the end if we can keep just one Dodo colony at its current sustainable level.

I can just see Sarah Mclachlan cuddling up to a cave etching of a starving Dire Wolf pup.

zimmy

08-02-2018, 11:53 AM

Its not like the restaurants got together and said, this is a good idea, lets do it. The city councils are directing them to do it. Government taking time out of their busy days to legislate....straws...because......Turtles. Glad you're OK with that. Explains a lot

Glad to see that everything you learned in life you learned from GI Joe....explains even more.
Right and 50 years ago the textile companies in Connecticut dumped the dyes straight in the rivers and there was lead in gasoline. The companies didn't get together and say this is a bad idea, the government regulated it because it had negative impacts. The fact that your panties are in a bunch says more about you than the fact that I am ok with local governments having ordinances.
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The Dad Fisherman

08-02-2018, 12:03 PM

Right and 50 years ago the textile companies in Connecticut dumped the dyes straight in the rivers and there was lead in gasoline. The companies didn't get together and say this is a bad idea, the government regulated it because it had negative impacts. The fact that your panties are in a bunch says more about you than the fact that I am ok with local governments having ordinances.
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my panties arent in a bunch, I just think its one of the stupidest things I've seen in awhile.

on an I.Q. scale it falls between "Has to eat Oatmeal with a Straw" and 'Just Pull the Plug"

But, if your wish is to someday have the Government wipe your ass for you....enjoy

https://www.samsclub.com/sams/jumbo-unwrapped-straws-2500-ct/155875.ip

spence

08-02-2018, 12:13 PM

Dunno - persoanlly I think it should bre recycled and ground here and then reused.

How much of the world's mismanaged plastic originated from China?

But going with your premise - how far do you want to go back with the plastic? To the middle East as oil / petroleum products? Dinosaurs? This is a good point - let's ban Dinosaurs and other Prehistoric Flora and Fauna For Little Sally's straw ; )

It's a complex systems problem.

China has imported about 45% of the world’s plastic waste since 1992 for recycling, the study found.

In the U.S. alone, nearly 4,000 shipping containers full of plastic recyclables a day had been shipped to Chinese recycling plants.

An estimated 111 million metric tons of plastic waste will be displaced by 2030 as a result of China’s recent ban on the import of most plastic waste, according to new research.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/06/21/china-ban-plastic-waste-recycling/721879002/

Sounds like we've been "responsibly" exporting plastic to China for cheap disposal and what we get for our money is poor management which has a global impact.

Yes, banning straws isn't going to fix the problem but this is like the climate deniers who scoff at every mention to kill the debate ignoring that we still have a big issue to address.

JohnR

08-02-2018, 12:14 PM

JohnR

08-02-2018, 12:19 PM

It's a complex systems problem.

Sounds like we've been "responsibly" exporting plastic to China for cheap disposal and what we get for our money is poor management which has a global impact.

Yes, banning straws isn't going to fix the problem but this is like the climate deniers who scoff at every mention to kill the debate ignoring that we still have a big issue to address.

We have existing laws that will reduce existing plastic polution. Having the PD pull over Billy Schmucaktelli and give him a fine when he tosses a Big Mack Combo out the window might be a good start.

Hopefully the judge does not dismiss it for cruel and unusual punishment like they do in so many instances.

Between the lack of enforcement and the lack of judicial sentencing there is little deterrence to the litterbug.

I'm pretty confident you do not litter, I know I don't and I'm pretty sure most (all?) people here don't.

wdmso

08-02-2018, 02:09 PM

remember the Light bulb outrage

2010 Right-wing talk show host Rush Limbaugh cited promotion of eco-friendly light bulbs No Republican complicit in nannyism, statism, can be rewarded .”

Incandescent bulbs subject to strict efficiency standards

The effect will be to make current 100-watt bulbs obsolete — and that has sent conservative lawmakers, libertarians, some environmental activists and owners of Easy-Bake Ovens into a frenzy of activity to get the law repealed or, at least, to stockpile the bulbs before they disappear from store shelves.

Now the right and others are outrage about going back to paper Straws.... its bringing something back from the 50's you think they would be excited seeing they love Nostalgic policys

JohnR

08-02-2018, 03:17 PM

zimmy

08-02-2018, 03:19 PM

my panties arent in a bunch, I just think its one of the stupidest things I've seen in awhile.

on an I.Q. scale it falls between "Has to eat Oatmeal with a Straw" and 'Just Pull the Plug"

But, if your wish is to someday have the Government wipe your ass for you....enjoy

https://www.samsclub.com/sams/jumbo-unwrapped-straws-2500-ct/155875.ip
Stupidest just after print your own a.r. 15? I am not sure why you care what Seattle and cities in California do, but I imagine the Rush and Hannity types are getting their listeners lathered up.
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spence

08-02-2018, 03:22 PM

We have existing laws that will reduce existing plastic polution. Having the PD pull over Billy Schmucaktelli and give him a fine when he tosses a Big Mack Combo out the window might be a good start.
Not sure that's the point. It's the volume of plastics that are put into the system in general that's leading to the ocean volumes regardless of the entry point via trash, recycling mishandling, tsunami, fishing nets etc...

zimmy

08-02-2018, 03:27 PM

Go try to drink a Strawberry Fribble through a Paper Straw.

We'll wait ; )

(side note; Haven't had one in 30 years but dang it sounds good, no? :tooth: )
Don't know what a strawberry Fribble is, but bet it has to melt a little before it works in a plastic straw. Something tells me drinking it out of a lid similar to a hot coffee lidvwill work just fine. Or buy stock in wheat straw, then you can make money at a lower tax rate than your regular job and you will help the farmers hammered by Tweety's tariffs who aren't covered by his pre-election bribes, I mean handouts, no subsidies it is . More manly to drink out of a real straw straw anyway.
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zimmy

08-02-2018, 03:30 PM

Not sure that's the point. It's the volume of plastics that are put into the system in general that's leading to the ocean volumes regardless of the entry point via trash, recycling mishandling, tsunami, fishing nets etc...
I think there is a great misunderstanding about the waste cycle. Into the trash often times doesn't equate to into the landfill for eternity. Anyway, if people in Seattle don't like it, they will vote out the council or bring their own straws. They won't need the government to wipe anything for them.
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wdmso

08-03-2018, 07:15 AM

let bring this back a bit

Despite Strong Economy, Federal Deficit Soars

Corporate tax receipts are down for the year, while government spending is up. Even with a fast-growing economy, the Treasury Department expects to borrow more than $750 billion to pay its bills during the last six months of this year.

"The federal budget deficit is ballooning, skyrocketing, soaring, whichever way you want to describe it,"

"Let me be 100 percent clear about one thing: The tax cuts are never going to pay for themselves," said Maya MacGuineas, president of the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget. "They can grow the economy, but not enough to come anywhere close to offsetting the cost of them."

"Last time we had a recession, our debt was half the level it is today, relative to the economy,"

And all this is Good How ??? Trump has trump has scammed America His base see him as infallible believe him over facts ..

Its not Trump deranged syndrome thats the issue in America .. the issues is with his Base its called the stockholm syndrome..

Got Stripers

08-03-2018, 07:21 AM

That’s why I drink beer, turn each can in to pay for more beer, love my hops. Straws are for kids.
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JohnR

08-03-2018, 07:30 AM

I think there is a great misunderstanding about the waste cycle. Into the trash often times doesn't equate to into the landfill for eternity. Anyway, if people in Seattle don't like it, they will vote out the council or bring their own straws. They won't need the government to wipe anything for them.
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Improve the recycling

let bring this back a bit

Despite Strong Economy, Federal Deficit Soars

Corporate tax receipts are down for the year, while government spending is up. Even with a fast-growing economy, the Treasury Department expects to borrow more than $750 billion to pay its bills during the last six months of this year.

WTH were you the last dozen years?

scottw

08-03-2018, 08:32 AM

WTH were you the last dozen years?

yeah...didn't they call it "new normal" back then?

Sea Dangles

08-03-2018, 08:40 AM

Yup, now the deficit is important to Wayne.
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zimmy

08-03-2018, 10:46 AM

Improve the recycling

You willing to fund that with your tax dollars? It isn't in the interest of the recycling companies to do that. They recycle for profit. They have no incentive to upgrade all the machinery even if the technology existed The market in China for recycled material has dried up as it is. I understand people view this as solely a personal freedom issue, but when the stuff someone uses becomes an external problem, personal freedom has limits. The impact of plastic on wildlife, and fisheries in particular, is dramatic and the cost to purchase a straw or plastic bag doesn't come close to the economic impact associated with them as waste.

How about this? Tax the straws at a rate that will allow the recycling companies to upgrade the machinery to collect the straws for recycling. Probably end up being a few cents per straw given the 500 million a day that are used in USA. All the tax goes to fund upgrades. Temporary tax of a year or two, whatever is needed. Pretty sure a bunch of people that are upset about local ordinances banning straws would be equally upset about a tax to deal with the problem.

scottw

08-03-2018, 11:25 AM

"Tax the straws" !!!

:humpty:

zimmy

08-03-2018, 11:35 AM

:humpty:

I know you are a preteen, but don't make up quotes from me.
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scottw

08-03-2018, 11:43 AM

I know you are a preteen, but don't make up quotes from me.
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sticks and stones

Sea Dangles

08-03-2018, 12:09 PM

Where are quotation marks?
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scottw

08-03-2018, 12:12 PM

Where are quotation marks?
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fixed it...:rotf2:

zimmy

08-03-2018, 12:16 PM

fixed it...:rotf2:

Tough time in middle school for you I bet...
And your teachers didn't teach you how to selectively quote either.
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scottw

08-03-2018, 12:56 PM

Tough time in middle school for you I bet...
And your teachers didn't teach you how to selectively quote either.
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yeah....puberty and everything...tough time

zimmy

08-03-2018, 01:17 PM

yeah....puberty and everything...tough time

Don't worry, it gets better eventually for most people.
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wdmso

08-03-2018, 01:39 PM

Yup, now the deficit is important to Wayne.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I dont care about deficits I clearly understand they are part of Running a country in the long term .... the point is Republican have stated they cared about deficits as well as some here ..until Trump took office that is ....

But the Tax cut and better GDP were sold as they would pay for themselves and reduce the deficit with an increase in Tax revenue because of the booming economy.... Seems not to be the case :kewl:

JohnR

08-03-2018, 04:34 PM

You willing to fund that with your tax dollars? It isn't in the interest of the recycling companies to do that. They recycle for profit. They have no incentive to upgrade all the machinery even if the technology existed The market in China for recycled material has dried up as it is. I understand people view this as solely a personal freedom issue, but when the stuff someone uses becomes an external problem, personal freedom has limits. The impact of plastic on wildlife, and fisheries in particular, is dramatic and the cost to purchase a straw or plastic bag doesn't come close to the economic impact associated with them as waste.

How about this? Tax the straws at a rate that will allow the recycling companies to upgrade the machinery to collect the straws for recycling. Probably end up being a few cents per straw given the 500 million a day that are used in USA. All the tax goes to fund upgrades. Temporary tax of a year or two, whatever is needed. Pretty sure a bunch of people that are upset about local ordinances banning straws would be equally upset about a tax to deal with the problem.

I am already paying Taxes at an exhorbitant rate for tons of services I don't get (some of which I'm fine with, some not).

I dont care about deficits I clearly understand they are part of Running a country in the long term .... the point is Republican have stated they cared about deficits as well as some here ..until Trump took office that is ....

But the Tax cut and better GDP were sold as they would pay for themselves and reduce the deficit with an increase in Tax revenue because of the booming economy.... Seems not to be the case :kewl:

Small deficits are OK to run a country, not a deficit that is 6 times annual receipts.

The fact that YOU don't care about deficits clearly establishes your credibility when it comes to things financial ; ) and if one can further draw conclusions...

zimmy

08-03-2018, 04:47 PM

I am already paying Taxes at an exhorbitant rate for tons of services I don't get (some of which I'm fine with, some not).

I agree, taxes are already high, the recycling companies have no financial incentive to upgrade equipment, and plastic is a problem. A local ordinance isn't THAT crazy.

Also, had to check and, no surprise,
https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2018/07/27/what-sparked-the-lefts-campaign-against-plastic-straws-2/app-straws/

Wondered why guys in New England cared what localities on the west coast were up to.

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spence

08-03-2018, 05:02 PM

Small deficits are OK to run a country, not a deficit that is 6 times annual receipts.

The fact that YOU don't care about deficits clearly establishes your credibility when it comes to things financial ; ) and if one can further draw conclusions...
Federal tax receipts are over 3 trillion in recent years, compared to Bush era deficts of over a trillion, Obama era deficits of 5-600 Billion or the mushrooming Trump deficits that will take us back over a trillion for the next decade.

While this doesn't seem to look good for Republicans it's nowhere near the 6x multiple you claim. The fact that YOU don't understand deficits clearly establishes your credibility when it comes to things financial ; ) and if one can further draw conclusions...

Jim in CT

08-03-2018, 06:28 PM

recent years, compared to Bush era deficts of over a trillion, Obama era deficits of 5-600 Billion or the mushrooming Trump deficits that will take us back over a trillion for the next decade.

and if one can further draw conclusions...

I can draw the conclusion that you are a world class cherry-picker of data. If you ignore Obama's first 4 years, yes the deficits shrank. to half a trillion You conveniently left out that (1) his deficits were much larger in his first 4 years, and that the democrats controlled congress when the deficits were massive, and the GOP controlled congress (and this the budgets) when his deficits came down.

If you want to say conservatives are hypocrites about going berserk about deficits under Obama and now silent, that's 100% legitimate. But Obama added more to the debt than anyone before him.

zimmy

08-03-2018, 10:02 PM

You should read this Jim, the whole thing.
www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2018/01/15/obamas-federal-debt-grew-at-a-slower-rate-than-reagan-h-w-bush-or-w-bush/amp/
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JohnR

08-03-2018, 10:34 PM

Federal tax receipts are over 3 trillion in recent years, compared to Bush era deficts of over a trillion, Obama era deficits of 5-600 Billion or the mushrooming Trump deficits that will take us back over a trillion for the next decade.

While this doesn't seem to look good for Republicans it's nowhere near the 6x multiple you claim. The fact that YOU don't understand deficits clearly establishes your credibility when it comes to things financial ; ) and if one can further draw conclusions...

Do all of Bush and all of Obama - don't cherry pick

P.S. - I was against both in this regard :lasso:

Sea Dangles

08-04-2018, 12:28 AM

Pete F.

08-04-2018, 05:47 AM

Reagan

Started Presidency: $965 billion
Ended Presidency: $2.74 trillion
Increased 184% or 13.9% per year
H.W. Bush

Started Presidency: $2.74 trillion
Ended Presidency: $4.23 trillion
Increased 54% or 11.5% per year (only in office for four years)
Clinton

Started Presidency: $4.23 trillion
Ended Presidency: $5.77 trillion
Increased 36% or 4.0% per year
W. Bush

Started Presidency: $5.77 trillion
Ended Presidency: $11.1 trillion
Increased 93% or 8.5% per year
Obama

Started Presidency: $11.1 trillion
Ended Presidency: $19.85 trillion
Increased 78% or 7.5% per year
Trump
Started Presidency $19.85 Trillion
April 2018 $21.0 Trillion
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Jim in CT

08-04-2018, 06:31 AM

You should read this Jim, the whole thing.
www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2018/01/15/obamas-federal-debt-grew-at-a-slower-rate-than-reagan-h-w-bush-or-w-bush/amp/
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i can find as many articles as you want, written by people who say bush 43 wasn’t responsible for the subprime mortgage crisis. but people blamed him for what happened on his watch.

obviously, much of obama’s spending wasn’t discretionary, and he inherited a recession and he inherited a war. but he championed the stimulus bill which flopped, and obamacare which pretty much flopped.

again, all i ask is for some consistency. if liberals want to blame bush for the recession solely because it happened on his watch, then obama is also responsible for what happened on his watch. is that unfair? i don’t think so.
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spence

08-04-2018, 10:13 AM

Do all of Bush and all of Obama - don't cherry pick

P.S. - I was against both in this regard :lasso:
Doesn't matter none of them were 6X

JohnR

08-04-2018, 05:43 PM

Doesn't matter none of them were 6X

Ahhhh, I got ya.

Let me be more clear, the total debt is 6 times the annual revenue, and growing. The guv spends roughly 20-30% more annually than it takes in - that is unsustainable and has been my position since Junior was in office.

Federal tax receipts are over 3 trillion in recent years, compared to Bush era deficts of over a trillion, Obama era deficits of 5-600 Billion or the mushrooming Trump deficits that will take us back over a trillion for the next decade.

Now on your point that Bush was a Trillion per year and Obama was half that is just ludicrous Spence. Bush had one year (2?) at 1 T (TARP/QE) that was the first year of Obama. Obama had 4 years over a T. Both were too much. But Bush did not have "era deficts of over a trillion, Obama era deficits of 5-600 Billion". That is just ludicrous, and you know it.

spence

08-04-2018, 06:05 PM

Now on your point that Bush was a Trillion per year and Obama was half that is just ludicrous Spence. Bush had one year (2?) at 1 T (TARP/QE) that was the first year of Obama. Obama had 4 years over a T. Both were too much. But Bush did not have "era deficts of over a trillion, Obama era deficits of 5-600 Billion". That is just ludicrous, and you know it.
Bush left Obama with a massive deficit problem that Obama did a great job of whittling down even with the stimulus. Granted this was helped by economic growth. Trump inherited a deficit of under 700B and now its skyrocketing to over a trillion again for years to come...while we are experiencing decent growth as well.

Riddle me that? I’ve done my homework.
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Jim in CT

08-05-2018, 06:25 AM

Bush left Obama with a massive deficit problem that Obama did a great job of whittling down even with the stimulus. Granted this was helped by economic growth. Trump inherited a deficit of under 700B and now its skyrocketing to over a trillion again for years to come...while we are experiencing decent growth as well.

Riddle me that? I’ve done my homework.
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you got caught red handed cherry picking numbers to serve your agenda. leave it at that, don’t dig your hole deeper.

plenty of debt hypocrisy on both sides...for most people, their concern over deficits depends entirely on the party of the sitting president, it’s obvious.

interesting that you can see that trumps deficits will be this large for years to come. quite the prognosticator.

you forgot to mention, i wonder why, that a good chunk of bush’s deficits was because of the response to 9/11. he also managed, according to stanford university, to launch an aids initiative that is credited with saving over one million lives in africa. and almost nobody knows about it, because the media hates him.
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