Donald J. Trump
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Hard to believe that with thousands of people from South of the Border, walking unimpeded toward our country in the form of large Caravans, that the Democrats won’t approve legislation that will allow laws for the protection of our country. Great Midterm issue for Republicans!

6:45 AM - 17 Oct 2018

Has he forgotten that the Republicans hold both Congress and the Presidency?
How is it the democrats fault that he can rarely get enough of his party to agree on anything to pass it?
The republicans had years to come up with plans to accomplish things while they were doing the easy job of being the minority party playing the delay card and then holding Congress, obstructing and delaying for more years
Now holding all the cards, he is such a weak baby, he can't get what he wants done.

In June a bipartisan immigration bill was working it's way thru Congress and Trump responded in an obstructing tweet

Jun 22, 2018 06:06:30 AM Republicans should stop wasting their time on Immigration until after we elect more Senators and Congressmen/women in November. Dems are just playing games, have no intention of doing anything to solves this decades old problem. We can pass great legislation after the Red Wave!

Has he forgotten that the Republicans hold both Congress and the Presidency?
How is it the democrats fault that he can rarely get enough of his party to agree on anything to pass it?


They don't have a filibuster proof majority in the senate.

There are very low odds that the republicans will get to 60 votes in the midterms.
The republicans have not had a filibuster proof majority in close to the last 100 years.
If you won't consider compromise, you may not be a great negotiator.

There are very low odds that the republicans will get to 60 votes in the midterms.
The republicans have not had a filibuster proof majority in close to the last 100 years.
If you won't consider compromise, you may not be a great negotiator.

A great negotiator realizes the difference between compromise and surrender. If caving in on immigration, the key item that won Trump the Presidency, is not the surrender that Dems want, what do they wish to accomplish? The solutions that have been offered as compromise on immigration are basically the same solutions that led to further and greater illegal immigration. Sounds like surrender.

A great negotiator realizes the difference between compromise and surrender. If caving in on immigration, the key item that won Trump the Presidency, is not the surrender that Dems want, what do they wish to accomplish? The solutions that have been offered as compromise on immigration are basically the same solutions that led to further and greater illegal immigration. Sounds like surrender.
What immigration reform would increase illegal immigration
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What immigration reform would increase illegal immigration
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Path to citizenship for illegals before necessary border protections and penalties for those caught are instituted.

Path to citizenship for illegals before necessary border protections and penalties for those caught are instituted.

How does having a path to citizenship for people here increase the number of illegal immigrants
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

How does having a path to citizenship for people here increase the number of illegal immigrants
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If that path is granted before the border is secured, that will encourage more illegals to come with the notion that they too will eventually have a path, as it has consistently done with paths to citizenship without border security in the past. And that is even more so when promised border security does not happen.

If that path is granted before the border is secured, that will encourage more illegals to come with the notion that they too will eventually have a path, as it has consistently done with paths to citizenship without border security in the past. And that is even more so if promised border security does not happen.
What is the border security that is required
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What is the border security that is required
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How about your beloved "compromise"? You may believe that what Trump wants won't work, but make the compromise. Give him what he wants and you get the path.

How about your beloved "compromise"? You may believe that what Trump wants won't work, but make the compromise. Give him what he wants and you get the path.
What is it
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What is it
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Ask him, or the Republican Congress. If I recall correctly, there is the request that border security be done first. In the past, the path was done, and the security never developed.

Pretty difficult question I guess
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Pretty difficult question I guess
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Yeah . . . I guess . . . if you call for compromise but don't know what to compromise on . . . that would be pretty difficult . . .

Yeah . . . I guess . . . if you call for compromise but don't know what to compromise on . . . that would be pretty difficult . . .
Perhaps trump should say what he wants then
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Perhaps trump should say what he wants then
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Perhaps you shouldn't bring up the suggestion that Trump should compromise (you brought it up, not him) if you don't have a clue as to what there is to compromise on.

Perhaps you shouldn't bring up the suggestion that Trump should compromise (you brought it up, not him) if you don't have a clue as to what there is to compromise on.
Every time a bipartisan solution was proposed he changed the goal.
That’s what he did
Great negotiator
Currently he’s showing us his impressive leadership skills with the Saudi incident, remember it’s all about jobs
He has a different opinion of what Buy America means than I do
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Every time a bipartisan solution was proposed he changed the goal.
That’s what he did
Great negotiator

I don't know about every time and him changing. I do remember him calling the Dems bluff by offering to give citizenship to more illegals than the Dems were asking for. They turned that down. Great negotiators. Great phonies. They wanted the issue, not compromise or immigration reform.

Currently he’s showing us his impressive leadership skills with the Saudi incident, remember it’s all about jobs
He has a different opinion of what Buy America means than I do


I guess that makes you a better man.

I guess that makes you a better man.
He made an offer, they said yes and he then reneged. Typical Trump

American Man
Americans have sacrificed and paid for 75 years what Trump is destroying in his first term.
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He made an offer, they said yes and he then reneged. Typical Trump

I don't recall a yes to his plan. The Senate voted on four plans after he proposed his. His plan garnered the least overall votes and the most no's by Democrats.

American Man
Americans have sacrificed and paid for 75 years what Trump is destroying in his first term.


Are you the model "American Man"? Americans sacrificed and paid for over 200 years what Progressives/Democrats have been destroying for the last 80 years.

Are you the model "American Man"? Americans sacrificed and paid for over 200 years what Progressives/Democrats and Republicans have been destroying for the last 80 years.

Fixed it for you
Perhaps you’ve forgotten who started the Progessive party
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Fixed it for you
Perhaps you’ve forgotten who started the Progessive party


Progressives started the Progressive party. Both Republicans and Democrats have been Progressives. I don't even know the party affiliations of the mid to late 19th century Progressive theorists. I have stated a few times on this forum that the first Progressive President was T. Roosevelt, a nominal Republican. Herbert Hoover was also a Progressive. Nixon very often acted as a Progressive. But virtually all Democrat Presidents from Wilson till now have been Progressive. And the Democrat Congresses have been solidly Progressive since FDR. So the Dem Party is more heavily Progressive and has been for some time. It has even gone further left than the original and mid to late 20th century Progressives.

Are you the model "American Man"?

Progressives started the Progressive party. Both Republicans and Democrats have been Progressives. I don't even know the party affiliations of the mid to late 19th century Progressive theorists. I have stated a few times on this forum that the first Progressive President was T. Roosevelt, a nominal Republican. Herbert Hoover was also a Progressive. Nixon very often acted as a Progressive. But virtually all Democrat Presidents from Wilson till now have been Progressive. And the Democrat Congresses have been solidly Progressive since FDR. So the Dem Party is more heavily Progressive and has been for some time. It has even gone further left than the original and mid to late 20th century Progressives.

Are you the model "American Man"?
Perhaps
Try January 11 of this year for when Trump reneged
Of course he never denies that he said something but people who he’s negotiating with should trust him
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You also left out Nixon
Though I would think you would like him he had a big authoritarian side also
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You also left out Nixon
Though I would think you would like him he had a big authoritarian side also
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No, I didn't leave him out. In the middle of my post I said "Nixon very often acted as a Progressive. "

Perhaps
Try January 11 of this year for when Trump reneged
Of course he never denies that he said something but people who he’s negotiating with should trust him
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Are you saying that two weeks before Trump proposed to grant the 1.8 million a path to citizenship, he reneged on the plan? He reneged before he made the proposal?

American Man
Americans have sacrificed and paid for 75 years what Trump is destroying in his first term.


You say that "perhaps" you're the model "American Man." If the model is to be as indecisive as you demonstrate with your constant barrage of questions that you don't answer or answer with inscrutable comments or with more questions, it is a wonder how this supposed "American Man" accomplished anything over the past 75 years for Trump to destroy.

total length of the southern border with mexico is 1,954 miles..


Only conservatives see it as easy as putting up a fence in your backyard security does not equal zero ... but you can't compromise with thoses who unrealistically use Zero as a starting point

PS until things are better where people live they will never stop trying to go someplace better. americans do it all the time its called moving from state to state where the work is

total length of the southern border with mexico is 1,954 miles..


Only conservatives see it as easy as putting up a fence in your backyard security does not equal zero ... but you can't compromise with thoses who unrealistically use Zero as a starting point




No. People that are willing to discuss this beyond just a wedge issue realize it is more than just a fence (wall) and will take more than just a fence.

In a just world, politicians would have closed excess illegal migration 20 years ago, and offered more and better legal migration, but then both parties could not weaponize this particularly effective wedge issue.

Who said this? "Rather than talking about putting up a fence," the future president said. "Why don't we work out some recognition of our mutual problems?"
And this
"Many undocumented workers walked mile after mile, through heat of day and cold of the night. Some have risked their lives in dangerous desert border crossings," "Workers who seek only to earn a living end up in the shadows of American life."
Hint not Dems
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You say that "perhaps" you're the model "American Man." If the model is to be as indecisive as you demonstrate with your constant barrage of questions that you don't answer or answer with inscrutable comments or with more questions, it is a wonder how this supposed "American Man" accomplished anything over the past 75 years for Trump to destroy.

"American men" did it by cooperating in teams with one another toward a common goal, unlike the current president who has shown no ability to lead, only bully and threaten.

Are you saying that two weeks before Trump proposed to grant the 1.8 million a path to citizenship, he reneged on the plan? He reneged before he made the proposal?
I'm saying on the 9th he agreed to something and on the 11th he reneged.

I'm saying on the 9th he agreed to something and on the 11th he reneged.

Pardon me. I thought you were addressing my point about the 1.8 million path to citizenship that Trump offered and was rejected. It seems like a sneaky change of subject.

"American men" did it by cooperating in teams with one another toward a common goal, unlike the current president who has shown no ability to lead, only bully and threaten.

American men and women have been doing this since the founding of this nation and are continuing to do so. And they do it more freely and abundantly when they are not regulated by government beyond the bounds that the Constitution allows.

The past 75 years you mention are almost the exact period of time that Progressives have been creating and expanding a regulatory system that threatens to eliminate those constitutional bounds. Trump's roll back of regulations is a starting point toward retrenching the regulatory administrative state which has been progressively limiting the ability of American men and women to achieve their diverse goals rather than being herded into a unitary system of centralized corporatism joined in bed with large centralized government. A system, btw, which slowly strangles the middle class which you bemoan the disappearance of.


Trump has been leading this deregulation and leading the Republican party out of it's timid fear of media condemnation.

American men and women have been doing this since the founding of this nation and are continuing to do so. And they do it more freely and abundantly when they are not regulated by government beyond the bounds that the Constitution allows.

The past 75 years you mention are almost the exact period of time that Progressives have been creating and expanding a regulatory system that threatens to eliminate those constitutional bounds. Trump's roll back of regulations is a starting point toward retrenching the regulatory administrative state which has been progressively limiting the ability of American men and women to achieve their diverse goals rather than being herded into a unitary system of centralized corporatism joined in bed with large centralized government. A system, btw, which slowly strangles the middle class which you bemoan the disappearance of.


Trump has been leading this deregulation and leading the Republican party out of it's timid fear of media condemnation.

I have seen little in what he has done to reduce the power and economic advantage of corporations, other than hating Bezos.
Are you saying that he agrees with Senator Warren on reform of corporate controls? Or are corporations just going to act better because they have more money?

We'll likely see how Don the Cons leadership has worked in a few weeks.
After all he has said the election is all about him, unless they lose, then it's all on them.

I have seen little in what he has done to reduce the power and economic advantage of corporations, other than hating Bezos.

It's not the constitutional business of the federal government to reduce the intrinsic power and economic advantage of corporations or any other legitimate business entity. It is the constitutional duty of the federal government to stay clear of unconstitutional regulations. And to especially avoid what is essentially a partnership with corporations by creating burdensome costs on business which drive out small businesses which can't profitably afford them thus favoring larger, corporate entities which can.

That you don't "see" this is a matter of what you think government should be. The way you put it, as if the government should have the right to reduce (or grow) private business competitive advantages, is the very Progressive notion that the power to direct the private sector, our lives, is ultimately held by bureaucratic government, not by the people.

Are you saying that he agrees with Senator Warren on reform of corporate controls? Or are corporations just going to act better because they have more money?

I don't think he believes that the federal government should "control" business.

We'll likely see how Don the Cons leadership has worked in a few weeks.
After all he has said the election is all about him, unless they lose,
then it's all on them.

So then, you "see" that Don the Con is showing leadership,

So then, you "see" that Don the Con is showing leadership,

Being a bully is not good leadership.

We have supported many authoritarian regimes in the past and paid the price with lives in Vietnam and the Middle east, the current refugee crisis from central america is the result of our support of failed dictators that we approved of because of what they were not.

We now have one of our own, who thinks that he is what makes America great.

In his words:
"I tell you what, if I ever got impeached, I think the market would crash, I think everybody would be very poor."

Pointing to his head, he said: "Because without this thinking, you would see numbers that you wouldn't believe in reverse."

Pardon me. I thought you were addressing my point about the 1.8 million path to citizenship that Trump offered and was rejected. It seems like a sneaky change of subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYNttLz4Mag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1V2Wenfo6k

US President Donald Trump has threatened to use military force to completely close the US-Mexico border.

Being a bully is not good leadership.

Because you keep repeating that he is a bully does not make it so.

We have supported many authoritarian regimes in the past and paid the price with lives in Vietnam and the Middle east, the current refugee crisis from central america is the result of our support of failed dictators that we approved of because of what they were not.

Trump was not involved.

We now have one of our own,

So now are we switching from bully to dictator?

who thinks that he is what makes America great.

"great again"--returning it to its greatness not some greatness that Trump invented.

In his words:
"I tell you what, if I ever got impeached, I think the market would crash, I think everybody would be very poor."

Pointing to his head, he said: "Because without this thinking, you would see numbers that you wouldn't believe in reverse."

It's "thinking" that he has learned from experience and economic advisers, maybe even from a study of American history. He didn't magically or from dictatorial impulse come up with novel ideas that never were tried. The "thinking" in his head are the store of knowledge he has learned/not created.

It's very easy to turn Trump speak into whatever you want it to mean. Picking low hanging fruit is easy but not impressive. Certainly not convincing to more than simple-minded "thinking."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYNttLz4Mag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1V2Wenfo6k

That was a waste of 45 minutes. Can't bring myself to say "thanks."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYNttLz4Mag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1V2Wenfo6k

You post a video in response to my post regarding the 1.8 million path. But the video which is not about the 1.8, which he proposed a couple of weeks later. And the video shows Trump being "presidential" and being respectful and willing to deal rather than being your characterization of him being a bully.

Is your point that he said, in the video that he would sign a bill they came up with. He also had the caveat that the bill must include the cost of building a wall and that border security had to be addressed (in a meaningful way, no doubt).

There was Feinstein chirping in that they should pass a clean bill which dealt with the DACA issue first and then take more time on the security issue later in a comprehensive immigration reform. That's the same old trick the Dems pulled before. Get what they want up front, renege on the rest later.

Trump said that his version of a clean bill was security and DACA, then the immigration reform later. He said that he trusted the Congress to create such a bill and that he would sign it. Was such a bill that immediately funded the wall in full and seriously addressed border security, as he stipulated, proposed?

You post a video in response to my post regarding the 1.8 million path. But the video which is not about the 1.8, which he proposed a couple of weeks later. And the video shows Trump being "presidential" and being respectful and willing to deal rather than being your characterization of him being a bully.

Is your point that he said, in the video that he would sign a bill they came up with. He also had the caveat that the bill must include the cost of building a wall and that border security had to be addressed (in a meaningful way, no doubt).

There was Feinstein chirping in that they should pass a clean bill which dealt with the DACA issue first and then take more time on the security issue later in a comprehensive immigration reform. That's the same old trick the Dems pulled before. Get what they want up front, renege on the rest later.

January 23, 2018: After a contentious 69 hour U.S. government shutdown, the shutdown finally ends. The breakthrough in the impasse finally came after Democrats reluctantly voted to provide temporary pay for resumed government operations through February 8, 2018. Democrats relented on this issue in return for Republican leaders promises to soon address the issues of the currents struggle of Dreamers and other hot-button issues. Congress has until February 8, 2018 to find a solution to these issues or the government will shut down again.

Trump said that his version of a clean bill was security and DACA, then the immigration reform later. He said that he trusted the Congress to create such a bill and that he would sign it. Was such a bill that immediately funded the wall in full and seriously addressed border security, as he stipulated, proposed?

How much will a wall cost? What will the extent of the wall be? How high will it be? Whose land will the wall go on? What will the land cost?
Nobody knows, but you think Congress should give Trump a blank check. Is this based on Trump's business record?
I do not trust Trump.
I think we could find more productive ways to spend 50 billion dollars or more.
The GAO issued an opinion with concerns in August
https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/693488.pdf

Here is a piece by a noted "liberal" institution
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work

How much will a wall cost? What will the extent of the wall be? How high will it be? Whose land will the wall go on? What will the land cost?
Nobody knows, but you think Congress should give Trump a blank check. Is this based on Trump's business record?
I do not trust Trump.
I think we could find more productive ways to spend 50 billion dollars or more.
The GAO issued an opinion with concerns in August
https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/693488.pdf

Here is a piece by a noted "liberal" institution
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work


I didn't ask for your opinion on how much the wall would cost, nor about how you think the money would be better spent. Or about whether you Trust Trump or not. You claimed that Trump promised something and then he reneged on it. Which, I guess, is supposed to prove what a crappy person he is. Even though that has been a pattern in political policy negotiations forever. Certainly by the Democrats re border security.

How did Trump renege on his promise here?

Read his tweets
They are self explanatory
After listening to him justify the murder of Khashoggi by saying Saudi Arabia will pay us 110 billion, I wonder how much the world would raise for Trumps head
What value would be acceptable?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Read his tweets
They are self explanatory
After listening to him justify the murder of Khashoggi by saying Saudi Arabia will pay us 110 billion, I wonder how much the world would raise for Trumps head
What value would be acceptable?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Earlier in this thread you asked me a series of 4 questions which I answered.

Then, in response to your assertion that "Every time a bipartisan solution was proposed he [Trump] changed the goal", I noted how Trump actually offered to double the number of immigrants to get path to citizenship if his demands for border security and a wall were met. But his offer was not accepted

To which you replied that he made an offer and the Dems said yes, and then that T reneged.

I didn't recall the yes. To which you replied "Try January 11 of this year for when Trump reneged." I suggested that date was two weeks before T made the offer and questioned how could he have reneged on something he had not yet proposed.

So you later posted a video of Trump negotiating the immigration issue with a bipartisan committee which was not about his more than generous offer to grant twice the number that Dems were asking for if they would agree to his wall and border security. So, by this, you dodged my point that it was not he that reneged on the deal which we were discussing, and you moved (the goal posts) to a new supposed example of his reneging.

So then I asked how he reneged on something in that video. And, again, you dodged that with a non-answer and bringing up Khashoggi and what would the world pay for Trump's head.

So I answer directly to your questions as asked, but you can't directly answer two simple questions by me. Instead, you dodge and weave like Barry Sanders avoiding contact.

Earlier in the thread, you implied that I didn't answer your questions because each was a "Pretty difficult question I guess."

I guess my questions were too difficult for you. Or you are as untrustworthy and prone to reneging as you accuse Trump of being.

Earlier in this thread you asked me a series of 4 questions which I answered.

Then, in response to your assertion that "Every time a bipartisan solution was proposed he [Trump] changed the goal", I noted how Trump actually offered to double the number of immigrants to get path to citizenship if his demands for border security and a wall were met. But his offer was not accepted

To which you replied that he made an offer and the Dems said yes, and then that T reneged.

I didn't recall the yes. To which you replied "Try January 11 of this year for when Trump reneged." I suggested that date was two weeks before T made the offer and questioned how could he have reneged on something he had not yet proposed.

So you later posted a video of Trump negotiating the immigration issue with a bipartisan committee which was not about his more than generous offer to grant twice the number that Dems were asking for if they would agree to his wall and border security. So, by this, you dodged my point that it was not he that reneged on the deal which we were discussing, and you moved (the goal posts) to a new supposed example of his reneging.

So then I asked how he reneged on something in that video. And, again, you dodged that with a non-answer and bringing up Khashoggi and what would the world pay for Trump's head.

So I answer directly to your questions as asked, but you can't directly answer two simple questions by me. Instead, you dodge and weave like Barry Sanders avoiding contact.

Earlier in the thread, you implied that I didn't answer your questions because each was a "Pretty difficult question I guess."

I guess my questions were too difficult for you. Or you are as untrustworthy and prone to reneging as you accuse Trump of being.

How much is his head worth?
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How much is his head worth?
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I'm not seeing how that is relevant to the subject of this thread. Nor even related to anything I've said on it. Seems like yet another deke.

But, for what it's worth, probably a lot more than yours. The subject of Kathy Grffith's infamous severed head was recognized by many millions more than would recognize yours.