Anyone see the possibility of CC being designated a C&R zone ?

just looking at it from a conservation angle .. would like to see a slot limit also not saying it could even be done legally

(environmental police ) can't inforce 1 fish rule on the canal now not sure how C&R could be enforced

not look to argue over the topic just looking for the pros and cons seeing we all have grown up fishing.. some in the bad times and some in the good times

Wayne, see my post about NC. They have shut down sections of intercoastal waters. The DEM of Mass could do the same. Never mind C&R. CLOSE IT!!!

Hopefully it doesn't get to this level. My friend sent me this from Hong Kong this weekend.

Good luck with that. So many people who sit on the regulatory boards for striped bass regulations are either commercial fisherman or poachers. The conflict of interests are so glaringly obvious. In simple terms, it’s like the foxes are designing the fence to protect the hen house.
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that will never happen ><.

The Canal isn't going to be shut down or made C&R as there is simply too much money being made (legally and otherwise) off that fishery.

Good luck with that. So many people who sit on the regulatory boards for striped bass regulations are either commercial fisherman or poachers. The conflict of interests are so glaringly obvious. In simple terms, it’s like the foxes are designing the fence to protect the hen house.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I can't believe that after the latest stock assessment some people are still blaming commercial fishermen. Have yo guys seen this graphic of the 2017 catch?

I can't believe that after the latest stock assessment some people are still blaming commercial fishermen. Have yo guys seen this graphic of the 2017 catch?

What % of the fisherman are commercial vs rec? W/o that stat, the chart is meaningless.

What % of the fisherman are commercial vs rec? W/o that stat, the chart is meaningless.

I don't think it is completely meaningless. From a population perspective, it is all about dead fish. Who should be able to kill them is a subjective discussion. Recs kill the vast majority of fish; an enormous # of fish. Until that is dealt with, it is gonna get worse and worse.

I don't think it is completely meaningless. From a population perspective, it is all about dead fish. Who should be able to kill them is a subjective discussion. Recs kill the vast majority of fish; an enormous # of fish. Until that is dealt with, it is gonna get worse and worse.
I understand that a dead fish is a dead fish but to use that chart without including the percentage of rec versus commercial fisherman to try to make a point needs some clarification.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I think the total taken commercially in Mass was 800,000#. Hell the lunatics at the Canal would kill that in 2 weeks.

The answer is quite simple. Make the Striper a gamefish, impose a reasonable season, impose a slot and bingo, the stocks rebound and our kids and their kids have Stripers to catch.

Of course, pigs will fly before that happens. Too much money involved.

Canal should be closed to fishing for at least a few years.... give fish a break, and will ultimately push fishermen to work for their 30's and 40's.

Canal should be closed to fishing for at least a few years.... give fish a break, and will ultimately push fishermen to work for their 30's and 40's.

You think it is not work to catch a 30 - 40 in the canal?

What % of the fisherman are commercial vs rec? W/o that stat, the chart is meaningless.

What difference does it make if the commercial fishermen numbers are one or a million, they are only killing 10% of the fish.

I think the total taken commercially in Mass was 800,000#. Hell the lunatics at the Canal would kill that in 2 weeks.

The answer is quite simple. Make the Striper a gamefish, impose a reasonable season, impose a slot and bingo, the stocks rebound and our kids and their kids have Stripers to catch.

Of course, pigs will fly before that happens. Too much money involved.

Making stripers a game fish reduces the kill by 10% do you really think that would make a significant difference in the trajectory the SSB?

Slipknot:
Its "physical work" reeling them in against the current ...

Its not always "work" finding them, and thats what I was referring to.

(*That's my opinion... No disrespect to the people that enjoy
the canal as a format to catch fish in...)
I went to the canal for the first time last summer, and
It was ridiculous how easy it was to catch close to a dozen large fish...
The ease of it all made the catch fell less rewarding than when I would catch
a single similar fish out in the surf at 2 am. To each his own... But catching
trout on opening day in stocked pond doesn't make me feel like an accomplished
angler, even if the fight is fun.
And yes, I realize the canal is not always "on" , but those are the days I'm referring to

I can see the armada at both ends of the canal.... it will look like a blockade, making entry or exit impossible... No doubt that fleet would include everything from kayaks, canoes, and eight foot dinghies to the half million dollar sportfishing center consoles...


Not saying I am for or against, just pointing to possible outcomes. USCG would have to be onstation at both ends just to keep it navigable, nevermind pulling fishermen out of the water when their overmatched rowboats swamp, sink, or get run down

What difference does it make if the commercial fishermen numbers are one or a million, they are only killing 10% of the fish.

The difference is you are blaming the recreational fishermen without taking into account the % of each sector. If recreational fishermen are 99% of fisherman then they should be killing 99% of the fish.

Make it a game fish and a some of the problems are solved. Not all the problems but some of them.
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What % of the fisherman are commercial vs rec? W/o that stat, the chart is meaningless.

Most of the local rec's and newbies are lagit.

The Van's from Downtown Boston with the Asin catch and take EVERYTHING THEY CATCH and they leave more trash than at Woodstock!


Just my opinion.
5/0
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Always been curious to how they truly measure the Rec. harvest?

"Hi #^&#^&#^&#^& Little, I understand you target Striped-Bass during the season.. how many stripers did you catch last year?"
"To tell you the truth mam', I killed em'....probly couple hundred!"

How many did #^&#^&#^&#^& really catch?
How are the reported numbers justified?
Honor system?? :laughs: ....I can tell you this, 90% of fishermen that I've come across in my life stretch the truth...whether it's with their hands or their mouth.

The Canal is an anomoly.
When a big push of fish move in, so should a big push of law enforcement.
Regulations should be the same regardless the area....I'm still confused why size limits change for scup depending on the location?

this rec vs comm guys

full disclosure I have applied for my Comm Bass permit


i dont know many rec guys catching 15 fish a day and keeping their 1 and releasing the rest and not everyone who owns a saltwater license fish for Bass ... not saying every comm guy gets 15 but to get their size limit there going thru some fish..

But for comm guys to suggest it's everyone else impacting and rec guys to say the same thing about the comm guys... is not based on reality ... and id love to see how scientific that chart and where the data comes from.. i did some research the graph is based on the whole east coast .. here is some information from the site ... some issues for me uncalibrated MRIP catch estimates and this
commercial landings in 2017 include Massachusetts (17%) recreational landings by Massachusetts (16%) not sure how mortality rates are not the same or very close? in Mass at least ,, and this applies here I am sure.. Anglers continue to release the vast majority of striped bass they catch; 73% to 91% not a math wiz but how many would need to be caught to get 16% landing if 73-91% are released ??

The following recreational estimates is based on uncalibrated MRIP catch estimates: From 2007 to 2014, total recreational landings along the coast have averaged just over 25 million pounds annually. From 2015-2017, recreational anglers harvested an estimated 16 million fish annually, which can be attributed to implementation of more restrictive regulations via Addendum IV. Of those coastwide recreational landings, Maryland landed the largest percent in 2017 in terms of number of fish (52%), followed by Massachusetts (16%), New York (10%), New Jersey (8%), and Virginia (5%). Anglers continue to release the vast majority of striped bass they catch; 73% to 91% since implementation of Amendment 6 in 2003. The number of released fish peaked in 2006 at 23.3 million fish. Total numbers of releases have declined since then, averaging 8.6 million fish annually from 2008-2017. An estimated 12.0 million fish were caught and released in 2017.

Under Amendment 5, commercial striped bass harvest grew from 3.4 million pounds in 1995 to 6 million pounds in 2002. Since the passage of Amendment 6, commercial harvest has been managed through a quota system, with landings averaging just shy of 7 million pounds annually from 2003 to 2014. In 2015, the commercial quota was reduced through Addendum IV. Chesapeake Bay jurisdictions accounted for approximately 62% (2.9 million pounds) of the total commercial landings in 2017 (4.8 million pounds). Other primary contributors to coastwide commercial landings in 2017 include Massachusetts (17%) and New York (15%). In 2017, commercial harvest in the Albemarle Sound/Roanoke River (A/R) management area was estimated at 75,783 pounds and recreational harvest estimated at 101,131 pounds.





I still feel a slot limit is the best bet keep the breeder out of the food chain

Making stripers a game fish reduces the kill by 10% do you really think that would make a significant difference in the trajectory the SSB?

How do you come up with 10% Mike? If it's a game fish and there is a slot limit and a closed season for certain times of year then the total take is correspondingly reduced. Your logic is flawed because you assume I'm talking just about comms. The gamefish status would apply to everyone and the slot and closed season would also apply to everyone. It also would have a detrimental effect on the black market. No more striped bass on the menu in all the Asian restaurants.

Listen, Florida did it for Snook and Tarpon and it worked. I realize that those 2 species are indigenous to Florida and Stripers are much more widely distributed but if it were species wide then geographic borders would be meaningless.

The Canal is an anomoly.
When a big push of fish move in, so should a big push of law enforcement.
Regulations should be the same regardless the area....I'm still confused why size limits change for scup depending on the location?

The Canal may be an anomaly but the SW Ledge isn't. The whole sale slaughter that takes place out there is crazy. The charter guys from Montauk, RI, CT and even MA make a couple of trips a day with a 6 pack on board. They all limit out on big fish. Take 1, 20 to 30# fish times 6 guys, times 2 trips, times the number of boats and you get the picture of the slaughter that is taking place.

The difference is you are blaming the recreational fishermen without taking into account the % of each sector. If recreational fishermen are 99% of fisherman then they should be killing 99% of the fish.

Make it a game fish and a some of the problems are solved. Not all the problems but some of them.
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It isn't a 1:1 kind of thing. If commercials are 1% of fisherman, they are catching for 1000's of other people. I guess it comes down to whether the fish, as a resource, should only be available to the person who is able/interested in catching it himself.

The spirit of Mako's original post is that some recs are quick to blame the commercial guys for the population problems and the data does not support that.

I think gamefish status reduces the harvest by more than 10%, but it wouldn't end poaching. It would be nearly impossible to police whether a restaurant is serving an illegally harvested or farm raised fish. Better that then what we have now, I suppose.

The Canal may be an anomaly but the SW Ledge isn't. The whole sale slaughter that takes place out there is crazy. The charter guys from Montauk, RI, CT and even MA make a couple of trips a day with a 6 pack on board. They all limit out on big fish. Take 1, 20 to 30# fish times 6 guys, times 2 trips, times the number of boats and you get the picture of the slaughter that is taking place.

That crowd can go out of business far as I am concerned. Moratorium, followed by a coastwide slot would end that nonsense.

Both posts spot on Zimmy.

Anyone that keeps up with where the fish are and if the bite is on has the ability to catch 15 fish whether they are rec, comm or charter(rec).

Whatever action that takes place in the future needs to be coastwide, not per state.

Gamefish status does nothing to reduce the release mortality rate.

Not sure if the slot limit theory has been proven to help when you take just a certain age fish out of the mix every year. Maybe a slot limit that changes every year or 2 depending on the YOY data?

You guys all talk about the canal and SW ledge. IMO there are far more big fish taken down in Jersey and the VA area early and late in the year.

The difference is you are blaming the recreational fishermen without taking into account the % of each sector. If recreational fishermen are 99% of fisherman then they should be killing 99% of the fish.

Make it a game fish and a some of the problems are solved. Not all the problems but some of them.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

O.K. here we go, I'm going to try and dress each of these messages separately.

Making it a gamefish does nothing but eliminate the commercial catch, which is, according to the stock assessment (which is where that chart comes from) is 10%. The fish belong to everyone, not just the guys who pick up a rod and go fishing. The commercial sector catches the fish for the rest of the country that doesn't fish. Fact is that by eliminating the commercial sector you are reducing mortality by 10% while doing nothing to address the other 90%.

Always been curious to how they truly measure the Rec. harvest?

"Hi #^&#^&#^&#^& Little, I understand you target Striped-Bass during the season.. how many stripers did you catch last year?"
"To tell you the truth mam', I killed em'....probly couple hundred!"

How many did #^&#^&#^&#^& really catch?
How are the reported numbers justified?
Honor system?? :laughs: ....I can tell you this, 90% of fishermen that I've come across in my life stretch the truth...whether it's with their hands or their mouth.

The Canal is an anomoly.
When a big push of fish move in, so should a big push of law enforcement.
Regulations should be the same regardless the area....I'm still confused why size limits change for scup depending on the location?

Here is an synopsis of how the rec catch is estimated, for more detail go to countmyfish.com.

There are trained state employees deployed throughout the fishing season (except for Jan. & Feb.) at point where they are likely to encounter anglers returning from a fishing trip. Those locations are NOT random, they are statistically selected to produce a statistically valid random sample. When the encounter and angler who agrees to be interviewed, they count and measure the fish in the anglers possession. They also ask about how many fish f each species were released. Those interviews are used to produce an estimates of the catch per unit of effort (CPUE) for that area.

Then there is a mail survey, which is sent to statistically valid random sample of addresses listed in the postal service database for the coastal states. That survey is used to produce an estimate of the total recreational effort.

Then the two are combined to produce the estimated catch. For released fish, and a huge amount of striped bass are released, the estimated mortality is derived from several scientific studies (one of which was conducted by Diodati of MA DEP) and is estimated at 9%.

That, in a nutshell, is how they get the recreational numbers. Basically the only thing they are taking someone's word for is how many times they went fishing and what they were fishing for.

this rec vs comm guys

full disclosure I have applied for my Comm Bass permit


i dont know many rec guys catching 15 fish a day and keeping their 1 and releasing the rest and not everyone who owns a saltwater license fish for Bass ... not saying every comm guy gets 15 but to get their size limit there going thru some fish..

But for comm guys to suggest it's everyone else impacting and rec guys to say the same thing about the comm guys... is not based on reality ... and id love to see how scientific that chart and where the data comes from.. i did some research the graph is based on the whole east coast .. here is some information from the site ... some issues for me uncalibrated MRIP catch estimates and this
commercial landings in 2017 include Massachusetts (17%) recreational landings by Massachusetts (16%) not sure how mortality rates are not the same or very close? in Mass at least ,, and this applies here I am sure.. Anglers continue to release the vast majority of striped bass they catch; 73% to 91% not a math wiz but how many would need to be caught to get 16% landing if 73-91% are released ??

The following recreational estimates is based on uncalibrated MRIP catch estimates: From 2007 to 2014, total recreational landings along the coast have averaged just over 25 million pounds annually. From 2015-2017, recreational anglers harvested an estimated 16 million fish annually, which can be attributed to implementation of more restrictive regulations via Addendum IV. Of those coastwide recreational landings, Maryland landed the largest percent in 2017 in terms of number of fish (52%), followed by Massachusetts (16%), New York (10%), New Jersey (8%), and Virginia (5%). Anglers continue to release the vast majority of striped bass they catch; 73% to 91% since implementation of Amendment 6 in 2003. The number of released fish peaked in 2006 at 23.3 million fish. Total numbers of releases have declined since then, averaging 8.6 million fish annually from 2008-2017. An estimated 12.0 million fish were caught and released in 2017.

Under Amendment 5, commercial striped bass harvest grew from 3.4 million pounds in 1995 to 6 million pounds in 2002. Since the passage of Amendment 6, commercial harvest has been managed through a quota system, with landings averaging just shy of 7 million pounds annually from 2003 to 2014. In 2015, the commercial quota was reduced through Addendum IV. Chesapeake Bay jurisdictions accounted for approximately 62% (2.9 million pounds) of the total commercial landings in 2017 (4.8 million pounds). Other primary contributors to coastwide commercial landings in 2017 include Massachusetts (17%) and New York (15%). In 2017, commercial harvest in the Albemarle Sound/Roanoke River (A/R) management area was estimated at 75,783 pounds and recreational harvest estimated at 101,131 pounds.





I still feel a slot limit is the best bet keep the breeder out of the food chain

Just FYI the terms "calibrated" and "uncalibrated" refer to a change in the methodology used to estimate the recreational catch. Originally the effort survey (see my note above) was made vis phone call. When they switched to the mail survey they got a much better response rate that was so different it called into question all of the estimates made in prior years. So they want back and reestimated (calibrated) the prior years to make them comparable to the estimates using the new methodology.

How do you come up with 10% Mike? If it's a game fish and there is a slot limit and a closed season for certain times of year then the total take is correspondingly reduced. Your logic is flawed because you assume I'm talking just about comms. The gamefish status would apply to everyone and the slot and closed season would also apply to everyone. It also would have a detrimental effect on the black market. No more striped bass on the menu in all the Asian restaurants.

Listen, Florida did it for Snook and Tarpon and it worked. I realize that those 2 species are indigenous to Florida and Stripers are much more widely distributed but if it were species wide then geographic borders would be meaningless.

Big difference between stripers and snook and tarpon. Snook and tarpon are not desirable food fish, so there wasn't any significant commercial fishery for the to start with. so called "gamefish" status only affect commercial fishermen, and we already have that status along most of the coast. NJ, CT, NH & ME do not allow the sale of striped bass. With the amount of fish already being released a slot limit isn't going to have much of an affect and 9% of the additional fish released will die anyway.

The Canal may be an anomaly but the SW Ledge isn't. The whole sale slaughter that takes place out there is crazy. The charter guys from Montauk, RI, CT and even MA make a couple of trips a day with a 6 pack on board. They all limit out on big fish. Take 1, 20 to 30# fish times 6 guys, times 2 trips, times the number of boats and you get the picture of the slaughter that is taking place.

Another false assertion, if you dig into the numbers, on a coastwise basis the charter/party fleet is only responsible for about 5% of the total mortality (both fish kept and released mortality). Feel free to go look at the numbers. I looked at 2017, the latest year available.

That crowd can go out of business far as I am concerned. Moratorium, followed by a coastwide slot would end that nonsense.

It didn't last time, what makes you think it will this time?

I think gamefish status reduces the harvest by more than 10%, but it wouldn't end poaching. It would be nearly impossible to police whether a restaurant is serving an illegally harvested or farm raised fish. Better that then what we have now, I suppose.

Look at the chart, for 2017 commercial harvest and dead discards are 10% of the total mortality.

It didn't last time, what makes you think it will this time?

There wasn't a coast wide slot following the last moratorium. The regulations did bring the population to unprecedented levels.

If there were a slot, neither those boats nor the recs would have been out there decimating schools of big fish the way they been for 20 years. We probably would be talking about plugs vs eels and not a potential moratorium.

Another false assertion, if you dig into the numbers, on a coastwise basis the charter/party fleet is only responsible for about 5% of the total mortality (both fish kept and released mortality). Feel free to go look at the numbers. I looked at 2017, the latest year available.

Mike, I have always respected your opinion and still do but I disagree with your statements about the charter boats. I don't care what the charts say. I have seen boats come in at Noon with 6 dead 30 to 40 # fish. Back out and the same at 4:30 in the afternoon.
So all the boats in all the states I mentioned only account for 5% of the total mortality? I don't believe that for a minute.

I live here. I see what is happening. I totally get that VA and MD and NC at the Oregon Inlet account for a lot of tonnage. That's why I believe gamefish status is the only viable solution for the survival of the species.
My feeling are not self-serving as I sold the boat and haven't fished for Bass in 4 years. I care about the future.

I agree...the charts and numbers cannot account for the poaching which is super out of control...same as the black market crap that goes on.

Regarding the Canal. Throw enforcement at it. Special regs. Minimum fine for poaching or wanton waste is between a 1 and 10K fine. Like you can get fined if you release a fish that floats.

Catch and keep is a counter intuitive regulation. If the Canal was a catch and keep only fishery that was strongly enforced. Most of the facebook yahoos would disappear. Once you catch your limit no matter the size you have to stop fishing. If its a legal fish you can get fined for releasing it. You would need a lot of enforcement but in my eyes...it would generate revenue for the state...keep the tackle shops in business and really cull the misbehavior.

It is also easy to for me to make this suggestion because it is not my home water....but just wanted to throw it into the pot as another idea.

Good thoughts!

There wasn't a coast wide slot following the last moratorium. The regulations did bring the population to unprecedented levels.

If there were a slot, neither those boats nor the recs would have been out there decimating schools of big fish the way they been for 20 years. We probably would be talking about plugs vs eels and not a potential moratorium.

What on earth leads you to the conclusion that a lot less people will fish if there is a slot limit?

Mike, I have always respected your opinion and still do but I disagree with your statements about the charter boats. I don't care what the charts say. I have seen boats come in at Noon with 6 dead 30 to 40 # fish. Back out and the same at 4:30 in the afternoon.
So all the boats in all the states I mentioned only account for 5% of the total mortality? I don't believe that for a minute.

I live here. I see what is happening. I totally get that VA and MD and NC at the Oregon Inlet account for a lot of tonnage. That's why I believe gamefish status is the only viable solution for the survival of the species.
My feeling are not self-serving as I sold the boat and haven't fished for Bass in 4 years. I care about the future.

Hey, I'm with you but I've become something of a fisheries science nerd in the last 15 years. But I haven't fished for them in the last several years. I learned to go by the numbers the scientists produce, sometimes they are wrong but most times they are right. Sometimes I'll quibble about the details but by and large the scientist are right. FWIW I spent three days last week with two of the guys who were responsible for the stock assessment.

Anyway, the statistics show that in 2017 the entire charter party fleet was responsible for 5% of the mortality. I didn't run the numbers for the prior years but I believe they would be in the same neighborhood. Feel free to query the database, its pretty easy to do, and let me know if I'm wrong.

As far as slot limits go, the general consensus at this point among us wonks, is that it will only work if the limits are continually adjusted to protect the few big year classes we have coming into fishable sizes.

I agree...the charts and numbers cannot account for the poaching which is super out of control...same as the black market crap that goes on.

Regarding the Canal. Throw enforcement at it. Special regs. Minimum fine for poaching or wanton waste is between a 1 and 10K fine. Like you can get fined if you release a fish that floats.

Catch and keep is a counter intuitive regulation. If the Canal was a catch and keep only fishery that was strongly enforced. Most of the facebook yahoos would disappear. Once you catch your limit no matter the size you have to stop fishing. If its a legal fish you can get fined for releasing it. You would need a lot of enforcement but in my eyes...it would generate revenue for the state...keep the tackle shops in business and really cull the misbehavior.

It is also easy to for me to make this suggestion because it is not my home water....but just wanted to throw it into the pot as another idea.

could'a would'a should'a that may r may not work, but its not the world we live in.

could'a would'a should'a that may r may not work, but its not the world we live in.

I get it and really understand the best we can do is remove our own footprint on the fishery....but i just love surf fishing for bass so much that i hope someone comes up with some solution to the problem.

Who is to blame is never been something i get too hung up on. Both rec and coms poach and have impact on the fishery.

I totally understand the government really cares little about the resource as they do nothing to enforce and protect it.

Anyway...i will crawl back into my hole and hope for a miracle....hahaha.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

What on earth leads you to the conclusion that a lot less people will fish if there is a slot limit?

"If there were a slot, neither those boats nor the recs would have been out there decimating schools of big fish the way they been for 20 years. We probably would be talking about plugs vs eels and not a potential moratorium"

What in the post you quoted from me says that a lot less people will fish if there is a slot limit?

Also, what on Earth were you talking about when you replied to a post about a moratorium and a coast wide slot and said it didn't work last time?

As far as slot limits go, the general consensus at this point among us wonks, is that it will only work if the limits are continually adjusted to protect the few big year classes we have coming into fishable sizes.
That is what needs to be done in the near term. Good reason to have a moratorium for awhile. After that, a slot of moderately small fish would cut the harvest of breeding females by transfer some of the pressure to males.

.... trained state employees deployed throughout the fishing season.....encounter an angler who agrees to be interviewed, they count and measure the fish in the anglers possession. They also ask about how many fish of each species were released. Those interviews are used to produce an estimates of the catch per unit of effort (CPUE) for that area.

Then there is a mail survey??, which is sent to statistically valid random sample of addresses listed in the postal service database for the coastal states. That survey?? is used to produce an estimate of the total recreational effort.

Then the two are combined to produce the estimated catch. For released fish, and a huge amount of striped bass are released, the estimated mortality is derived from several scientific studies (one of which was conducted by Diodati of MA DEP) and is estimated at 9%.

Basically the only thing they are taking someone's word for is how many times they went fishing and what they were fishing for. :huh::huh:

I'm not being a flamer here *my font changes are only emphasizing my areas of further confusion*, but I fail to see where the science is in asking people who agree to be interviewed? Sure, if they have a fish in their possession, there's an actual count, but "how many did you release"? Really? How many guys walked away from that interview laughing about the tales told? Not that any agency could ever be accurate enough when it comes to "asking" people, but there are so many flaws in this system. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but how can you say that the only thing they're taking someone's word for is how many times they fish, when you state that they clearly "ask" people,,??? Isn't believing what they tell you, taking their word? The ONLY justifiable number is the fish they had in their possession...or perhaps I'm still missing something?? I surely don't have the answers to getting a factual number...it doesn't exist in the rec. realm...too many variables to consider. So to use these estimated numbers as scientific data is quite bogus in my opinion....but again, I don't have the answers, just opinions...and we know how those go.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Textbook.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

WAIT!!!...maybe I do have the answer...shut it down for 6 - 8 years.
During that time, people can talk about WHY it was shut down and perhaps that'll drive us to be more responsible...again.
I mean, we did get a little smarter since the last moratorium, I thought :eek5: ....let's just keep reliving the cycle, There's definitely science to prove that...:hihi:

That is what needs to be done in the near term. Good reason to have a moratorium for awhile. After that, a slot of moderately small fish would cut the harvest of breeding females by transfer some of the pressure to males.

Not in the biggest segment of the fishery, the Chesapeake bay stock. Males of the Chessie stock don't migrate out of the bay. Hudson and Delaware males are already being caught. A moratorium is not needed, the stock right now is about twice as large as the stock was when the last moratorium happened. As someone at the meeting last week summed it up, we just need to set the table and wait for mother nature to provide the conditions for a huge spawning year.

I'm not being a flamer here *my font changes are only emphasizing my areas of further confusion*, but I fail to see where the science is in asking people who agree to be interviewed? Sure, if they have a fish in their possession, there's an actual count, but "how many did you release"? Really? How many guys walked away from that interview laughing about the tales told? Not that any agency could ever be accurate enough when it comes to "asking" people, but there are so many flaws in this system. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but how can you say that the only thing they're taking someone's word for is how many times they fish, when you state that they clearly "ask" people,,??? Isn't believing what they tell you, taking their word? The ONLY justifiable number is the fish they had in their possession...or perhaps I'm still missing something?? I surely don't have the answers to getting a factual number...it doesn't exist in the rec. realm...too many variables to consider. So to use these estimated numbers as scientific data is quite bogus in my opinion....but again, I don't have the answers, just opinions...and we know how those go.

You can believe what you like, but those are the figures that rule recreational fishing. It's been reviewed several times by the National Science center and has been subject to some criticisms which were implemented, their last review gave the MRIP program an unqualified thumbs up. I too have some more specific concerns over how its done and how things are computed, but the MRIP numbers are what rules the recreational world. Not just for striped bass but for every species we target.

Not in the biggest segment of the fishery, the Chesapeake bay stock. Males of the Chessie stock don't migrate out of the bay. Hudson and Delaware males are already being caught. A moratorium is not needed, the stock right now is about twice as large as the stock was when the last moratorium happened. As someone at the meeting last week summed it up, we just need to set the table and wait for mother nature to provide the conditions for a huge spawning year.

The data on male migration relative to the Chesapeake comes from some old, limited studies and there has been more recent info that indicates a larger amount of male migration than originally thought. I would have to look for the literature, but it is out there. You imply that none of the coastal fish outside the Hudson range are male and that is not supported.

The point of moratorium now would be to take the pressure off all the year classes to reduce the need for a moving slot. Yes we can just set the table and wait for mother nature, but sometimes mother nature doesn't cooperate. The whole business of maximum sustainable yield got us where we are.

The stock is twice as large as when the last moratorium occurred, but the total pressure from recreational and commercial fisherman is multiple times larger than the pressure in the 60's and 70's that precipitated the moratorium.

Understood....and I'm glad you didn't take my post personally...no one's at fault here, we're just sharing opinions. That system may just be the closest assessment process possible for the Rec. sector.
However, it's severely flawed (IMO) and when I read about %'s on the rec. side, I always shake my head. It just makes matters worse when I see people standing behind those numbers like they're actually scientific facts/data. They're not...they're estimates based on peoples' "reportings" :rtfm:

Interview a "yahoo" who wants attention to begin with, and what do you think he's going to report, that he got skunked or that was the only fish he caught? :scratch: I doubt it.
Seems like a lot more people are looking for a soap-box nowadays and that leads to false information
___________________________

I can just hear them now, during a moratorium at the Canal...."I wasn't trying to catch a striped-bass, I was after that one bluefish that I saw jump in the middle of that mass of Bass"...:fishslap:

The CCC must rank high for locales with the highest mortality rates in the NE for SB. But it's easy to forgive yourself when you toss or even carefully release that striped-bass back in the water...he's out of sight and out of mind. You don't realize the damage done because he's only going to wash up further down in an eddy, or simply float out into one of the Bays. As much as it pains me to say this, because I too am guilty (if I can call it that) of fishing the CCC, but they should probably shut down fishing altogether in that place. Some will say, the CCC is but a grain of sand along the entire E-coast, but the impact caused to large schools (of the perfect mating class) at one given time is pretty impressive.

For every conservative advocate, there are 1K who don't give a dam. :huh:

... The stock is twice as large as when the last moratorium occurred, but the total pressure from recreational and commercial fisherman is multiple times larger than the pressure in the 60's and 70's that precipitated the moratorium.

That's the sad truth.
As much as you'd think it's great that more people are fishing then ever before (which equates to cha-ching for the economy)...these people only know the "now"...they've nothing to compare it to. AND, if things do go awry, they'll just pick up their golf bags like Paul did and hang up their rods until this "fad" returns for them.

When I've taken friends or family out on the boat with me, they often ask.."why can't we just fish right here?" There is a mind-set out there, where many people see this ginormous ocean and think there are fish everywhere. :huh: very misleading to those who don't really care or know as some do.

The data on male migration relative to the Chesapeake comes from some old, limited studies and there has been more recent info that indicates a larger amount of male migration than originally thought. I would have to look for the literature, but it is out there. You imply that none of the coastal fish outside the Hudson range are male and that is not supported.

The point of moratorium now would be to take the pressure off all the year classes to reduce the need for a moving slot. Yes we can just set the table and wait for mother nature, but sometimes mother nature doesn't cooperate. The whole business of maximum sustainable yield got us where we are.

The stock is twice as large as when the last moratorium occurred, but the total pressure from recreational and commercial fisherman is multiple times larger than the pressure in the 60's and 70's that precipitated the moratorium.

Care to provide a cite for those "more recent" studies? I haven't been able to find them.

The striped bass stock is NOT managed for MSY, its managed for abundance, check out the ASMFC FMPs and pay particular attention to the reference points. MSY is a substitute for "Optimum Yield" in the MSA and the MSA does NOT apply to he ASMFC.

If mother nature doesn't cooperate, there is almost nothing we can do to recover the stock.

Understood....and I'm glad you didn't take my post personally...no one's at fault here, we're just sharing opinions. That system may just be the closest assessment process possible for the Rec. sector.
However, it's severely flawed (IMO) and when I read about %'s on the rec. side, I always shake my head. It just makes matters worse when I see people standing behind those numbers like they're actually scientific facts/data. They're not...they're estimates based on peoples' "reportings" :rtfm:


Like it or not its our best and only estimate of the recreational sector and the NSC says its a good estimate. We will never be able to get a count of the fish in the recreational sector as a whole, thought we do get a very good estimate of the catch in the charter/party fleet. There we have a specific survey aimed at the customers of that sector which is backed up by the VTR reporting of the vessels themselves. Kind of a double check on what's being reported. On the commercial side we have an actual counting of fish, required by the dealers. Backdoor sales by poachers (both recreational and commercial) are almost impossible to quantify.

Care to provide a cite for those "more recent" studies? I haven't been able to find them.

The striped bass stock is NOT managed for MSY, its managed for abundance, check out the ASMFC FMPs and pay particular attention to the reference points. MSY is a substitute for "Optimum Yield" in the MSA and the MSA does NOT apply to he ASMFC.

If mother nature doesn't cooperate, there is almost nothing we can do to recover the stock.
It has been a few years since I read the literature, so I would have to dig in my piles to get it. The quote below, which comes from the link, has what I have understood for several years to be the current understanding. It isn't that they don't leave, they tend to stay around longer. They still leave and are harvested throughout the range of other bay fish. https://www.fws.gov/chesapeakebay/striper.html

"After about 3 years, at the juvenile stage, the females begin to migrate to the ocean where they mature. The males tend to remain in the estuary longer than the females."

I will read the details of how abundance targets vary from msy. Pretty sure they come from the same nest.

Care to provide a cite for those "more recent" studies? I haven't been able to find them.

The striped bass stock is NOT managed for MSY, its managed for abundance, check out the ASMFC FMPs and pay particular attention to the reference points. MSY is a substitute for "Optimum Yield" in the MSA and the MSA does NOT apply to he ASMFC.

If mother nature doesn't cooperate, there is almost nothing we can do to recover the stock.

From the FMP-
Here is how the reference points (BRP's) you reference... come from

TOR #5 is “Update or redefine biological reference points (BRPs; point estimates or proxies for BMSY, SSBMSY, FMSY, MSY). Define stock status based on BRPs by stock component where possible. (these are all relative to maximum sustainable yield)

When you say it is managed for abundance, that is sort of like saying the amount of people is measured by how many there are. All of these things are measures of levels of abundance. You are correct that they are explicitly saying the goal is MSY, but in the 2018 plan, there are some key questions some might find interesting:

Does the Board want to manage the stock to:
– Maximize yield
– Maximize catch rates
– Maximize the availability of trophy fish

What is the acceptable level of risk when it
comes to preventing stock collapse?

and...
The Board has raised concern that the current
BRP’s are too conservative for various biological,
ecological, and socio-economic reasons and may
be restricting fishing unnecessarily.

That should give us all confidence in the process :doh:

From the FMP-
Here is how the reference points (BRP's) you reference... come from

TOR #5 is “Update or redefine biological reference points (BRPs; point estimates or proxies for BMSY, SSBMSY, FMSY, MSY). Define stock status based on BRPs by stock component where possible. (these are all relative to maximum sustainable yield)

When you say it is managed for abundance, that is sort of like saying the amount of people is measured by how many there are. All of these things are measures of levels of abundance. You are correct that they are explicitly saying the goal is MSY, but in the 2018 plan, there are some key questions some might find interesting:

Does the Board want to manage the stock to:
– Maximize yield
– Maximize catch rates
– Maximize the availability of trophy fish

What is the acceptable level of risk when it
comes to preventing stock collapse?

and...
The Board has raised concern that the current
BRP’s are too conservative for various biological,
ecological, and socio-economic reasons and may
be restricting fishing unnecessarily.

That should give us all confidence in the process :doh:

And you have honed in on the critical issue, we know an awful lot about the striped bass, now what will the managers at the ASMFC do with that knowledge? There are really only two questions, will they abide by amendment 6 and reduce the mortality to the levels necessary to rebuild the stock, or will they move the goalposts, aka target biomass and mortality figures to avoid doing anything that would further restrict fishing? My bet is that they will act to rebuild the species, but we won't know for sure until after the board meets in May.

It has been a few years since I read the literature, so I would have to dig in my piles to get it. The quote below, which comes from the link, has what I have understood for several years to be the current understanding. It isn't that they don't leave, they tend to stay around longer. They still leave and are harvested throughout the range of other bay fish. https://www.fws.gov/chesapeakebay/striper.html

"After about 3 years, at the juvenile stage, the females begin to migrate to the ocean where they mature. The males tend to remain in the estuary longer than the females."


Found this Migrations: Striped bass migrate north and south seasonally and ascend to rivers to spawn in the spring. Males in the Chesapeake Bay may forego coastal migrations and remain in the Bay."

From:https://chesapeakebay.noaa.gov/fish-facts/striped-bass

And this: Kohlenstein
(1981) showed that approximately 50% of the 3-year-old female striped bass in Chesapeake Bay, and a smaller percentage of 2- and 4-year-old females, moved to the coast to join the migration annually. In contrast, few males of that age were migratory."

Fromhttps://www.nwrc.usgs.gov/wdb/pub/species_profiles/82_11-008.pdf

I wish I had the same faith in the ASMFC as you do mike (in thinking they will act to rebuild the species). I don't think their actions and decisions are based on whats best for the health of a fishery as their first priority... They may be acting in the best interest of a group... but it's probably not a group of fish.

Found this Migrations: Striped bass migrate north and south seasonally and ascend to rivers to spawn in the spring. Males in the Chesapeake Bay may forego coastal migrations and remain in the Bay."

From:https://chesapeakebay.noaa.gov/fish-facts/striped-bass

And this: Kohlenstein
(1981) showed that approximately 50% of the 3-year-old female striped bass in Chesapeake Bay, and a smaller percentage of 2- and 4-year-old females, moved to the coast to join the migration annually. In contrast, few males of that age were migratory."

Fromhttps://www.nwrc.usgs.gov/wdb/pub/species_profiles/82_11-008.pdf

Yeah, I came across the "may forego" too, but there wasn't an explanation or source. It probably comes from that Kohlenstein paper, which I think was the one that lead to the assumption that males stayed in the bay. That is the right time frame. My recollection, and it's been probably 15 years since I actually read a lot of the related literature, was that they looked specifically at the young classes and it was extrapolated that males don't leave, but later studies determined that they just don't leave until they are older. I don't know if/what reasons were hypothesized, but my first guess would be linked to differences in time to mature between males and females. It is a critical consideration when evaluating benefits of a slot.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Yeah, I came across the "may forego" too, but there wasn't an explanation or source. It probably comes from that Kohlenstein paper, which I think was the one that lead to the assumption that males stayed in the bay. That is the right time frame. My recollection, and it's been probably 15 years since I actually read a lot of the related literature, was that they looked specifically at the young classes and it was extrapolated that males don't leave, but later studies determined that they just don't leave until they are older. I don't know if/what reasons were hypothesized, but my first guess would be linked to differences in time to mature between males and females. It is a critical consideration when evaluating benefits of a slot.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Well, when you add in the fact that over 90% of the coastal fish caught in all of the various studies were all female and add in the fact that we do know that males from the Delaware and Hudson stocks do migrate it makes sense that very few if any Chessie males migrate.

I wish I had the same faith in the ASMFC as you do mike (in thinking they will act to rebuild the species). I don't think their actions and decisions are based on whats best for the health of a fishery as their first priority... They may be acting in the best interest of a group... but it's probably not a group of fish.

This.

I wish I had the same faith in the ASMFC as you do mike (in thinking they will act to rebuild the species). I don't think their actions and decisions are based on whats best for the health of a fishery as their first priority... They may be acting in the best interest of a group... but it's probably not a group of fish.

If it's any consolation I have spoken to a number of members of the board and they all seem to agree that something needs to be done and that they should stick with the Amendment 6 standards.

But I take your point that anything could happen.