Here we go.. So I am Remodeling my Kitchen Via a contractor , I did the kitchen rip out , while waiting for the Job to start my wife wanted new outlets . so I change all GFCI and Outlets , only to find out under code they need to Be Tamper Resistant . WTF so I re do everything to
the TR code required Plugs and GFI All 20A..

Now they are telling me I also need to also Add a gfci arc breaker to each circuit at 60 bucks a piece .. to what I already did

this seems like pilling on.. But I can not find the MA CMR laying this out

anyone here know the answer ?


But it seems may contractor seemed to think did not need to upgrade by 25 year old beat up outlets . and didn't factor in that cost even with my contract and is giving me a line of BS

even with the contract saying Modify electrical to meet code and accommodate layout

I HATE those GD tamper proof outlets!!!! I can never plug a F'ng thing in. <rant over, I'm of zero use regarding code>

The issue here is once you touch it, you have to bring the piece up to code in its entirety.... So if you had left outlets alone, no new breakers needed. Now you have to replace each breaker for the outlets you upgraded. I had to do the same with my kitchen four years ago. Expensive yes. And now they are in short supply, like many other building supplies. (I ended up going from 100 to 200 amp service after I saw the cost of just adding a sub panel...)

I can look through code books later if you really want it.

The issue here is once you touch it, you have to bring the piece up to code in its entirety.... So if you had left outlets alone, no new breakers needed. Now you have to replace each breaker for the outlets you upgraded. I had to do the same with my kitchen four years ago. Expensive yes. And now they are in short supply, like many other building supplies. (I ended up going from 100 to 200 amp service after I saw the cost of just adding a sub panel...)

I can look through code books later if you really want it.

that part I understood, But I ask the kitchen place so you expected me to tear out an entire kitchen and floor and you did not think I was going to replace 25 year old ivory outlets in a Gray and white tile backsplash kitchen??

And how would any building inspector allow an entire kitchen remodel slide with non compliant outlets .. ?

ross if you could find this question if I upgraded all outlets and my wall GFCI and it kill the whole circuit , am I required to put in the GFCI Arc breakers Also

Or is it written as an either A or B or A and B are required Thanks

No good deed goes unpunished. :hihi:
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[QUOTE=The Dad Fisherman;1211103]No good deed goes unpunished. :hihi:
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Your not kidding
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Those ARC fault breakers suck too... dont' take much to trip em out

Eaton 20 amps Arc Fault/Ground Fault Single Pole Circuit Breaker
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Considering what a GFIC outlet will cost you're probably better off doing this above option ay amazon. You can then run regular TR outlets for short money. Down side long trip to the panel.
Use to be a building commissioner, arc faults have been code for quite a awhile and not to be overlooked. Insurance companies always look for this incase of a claim. Cost is a lot less than the cost of noncompliance.
Not an electrician just a code guy.
Ed

As an update, I have found that there are available AFCI/GFIC tamperproof outlets. They will provide downstream protection for outlets
connected to the load side of the outlet. Price seemed reasonable at around $30.00 and save long trips to the main panel

Ed

As an update, I have found that there are available AFCI/GFIC tamperproof outlets. They will provide downstream protection for outlets
connected to the load side of the outlet. Price seemed reasonable at around $30.00 and save long trips to the main panel

Ed


Thanks for the Info ED seems under the new code I need Tamper proof outlets in Addition to Arc and GFIC on each circuit in the kitchen. for a total of 7 circuits at 60 bucks a pop plus labor .. 5 of the 7 are the stove the microwave and the Fridge the dishwasher and the Garbage disposal all need one .. Seems electrical code is a job creator for electricians.. who knew my house was so unsafe:fury:

20 Amp 125-Volt Duplex Self-Test SmartlockPro Tamper Resistant AFCI/GFCI Dual Function Outlet, White

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-20-Amp-125-Volt-Duplex-Self-Test-SmartlockPro-Tamper-Resistant-AFCI-GFCI-Dual-Function-Outlet-White-112-AGTR2-00W/300049855#overlay

Here's an alternative ^^^

If your looking for a reason for all this "safety", its your friendly local
insurance conglomerate worried about losses.

All codes have under gone tremendous revisions. I am a staunch advocate of safety but have the seen the effort to totally eliminate the possibility of "error" certainly drive up costs and regrettably cause individuals to pursue efforts without permitting and inspection,
Going down this road is very dangerous, as it there is a loss, the insurance copy will find a way not to pay out.

"Hammurabi's Code was one of the earliest written codes of law in recorded history. Several of the laws pertained to the built environment: 229 If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death."

At least the codes are not as draconian as the first building code

ED

20 Amp 125-Volt Duplex Self-Test SmartlockPro Tamper Resistant AFCI/GFCI Dual Function Outlet, White

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-20-Amp-125-Volt-Duplex-Self-Test-SmartlockPro-Tamper-Resistant-AFCI-GFCI-Dual-Function-Outlet-White-112-AGTR2-00W/300049855#overlay

Here's an alternative ^^^

If your looking for a reason for all this "safety", its your friendly local
insurance conglomerate worried about losses.

All codes have under gone tremendous revisions. I am a staunch advocate of safety but have the seen the effort to totally eliminate the possibility of "error" certainly drive up costs and regrettably cause individuals to pursue efforts without permitting and inspection,
Going down this road is very dangerous, as it there is a loss, the insurance copy will find a way not to pay out.

"Hammurabi's Code was one of the earliest written codes of law in recorded history. Several of the laws pertained to the built environment: 229 If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death."

At least the codes are not as draconian as the first building code

ED

I asked if those were acceptable I was told even with those I would need to do the breakers also .. thanks

When I had my service panel changed about 15 years ago or so I thought the arc fault breakers were only for bedrooms and the gfi for bath and kitchen Who knows

It wasn’t long after I took out the ark faults and put in regular breakers. Way too many nuisense trips
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I've gone back and done some reading concerning the issue of afci and gfci and found nothing but complaints about "nuisance" tripping and how the units do not work. I have to amend my own thinking that to afci/cfic would be code compliant, learning that the AFCI breaker (in panel) protects the wiring from the pane to the outlet. It would also be problematic to have a AFCI breaker and an AFCI/GFCI as the result would be super sensitive.
I too an doing my kitchen over and will install the breakers as per code, but if I have the numerous problems that others have encountered I will remove them and keep them at the panel for reinsertion if required.

I say this very reluctantly, but from what I see, the units themselves need to be seriously improved. All the negative reports from both pros and homeowners can't be all wrong.

I realize that my decision (and that extends to me alone) is contrary to the code, but if the units do not perform as needed they contribute to the "cry wolf" situation and that's proven disastrously dangerous.

I say comply (I know it costs) otherwise you have no final inspection, and see if they work. Remember though, the kitchen itself must be GFCI protected with some exemptions i.e. refrigerator and lighting etc.

Ed

It would also be problematic to have a AFCI breaker and an AFCI/GFCI as the result would be super sensitive.
I had this on my pond outlet at the last house. Not only was it super sensitive sometimes you couldn't just reset both and have it work, you had to play around a bit. Freaking hated that outlet. I'd have to replace it several times a year because ants would build nests in it :wall: