I'm thinking that is a Salty kit plug because of the eye, paint, newness factor. BMs were all blind I believe.

DP Eelis for comparison. Non-sloped 5.75" and 7". Sloped 5.75" and 7".

from what i have heard Don's favorite lipless was a smaller one

Good morning everyone. George reading your posts makes me realize just how much of the science behind this I don't know.

I wanted to try some of the big donny surface plugs. I didn't have pine so I made a prototype of white cedar and 1 of basswood that I hadn;t been using for anything. After tweaking the weighting I got the basswood one weighted to do what I want. I'm sure its not set up 'correctly' but it looks like it will work where I will fish it. I guess until I get it into some moving water I won't really know for sure. Its amazing how much current changes how a plug works.

My current project is a polaris. I made some bigger ones last year for the canal and when you really leaned into a cast they'd get that slight wobble that costs you 20 yards.. I gotta get that figured out.

I had 2 smaller 5 1/2 inch ones that I used a bunch last fall that cast great. At the end of the year I brought them into the shop so I could copy them this winter. When I went to look at them yesterday the epoxy had lifted off the paint. Thats the only 2 plugs it happened to, so frustrating..

If I was a genius I wouldn't have to learn all this stuff the hard way. I tweak the lips and wires of every swimmer to try and get it to do what I want (and often adjust more while fishing for various conditions). When I can't I know I've got a problem.

That big white one with the red hooks was the problem child. It has a tail weight to compensate for the absence of a tail hook and this set up worked great in the smaller white proto at the top. The BM is a heavier plug and floats very low in the nose without the tail hook (and fished very well that way). But even when I added weight and changed lips (I cut several different shapes) and bent wires up and down that white plug wasn't right at the speed I retrieve them. I think it is the planing action of the body that is wrong.....something I'd never thought about in swimmers previously (in needles and spooks it matters) and which is why I posted about it. I suspect if I loose the tail weight and upsize the front hook I can make it work. It will cast worse, however. On the next run I'll put some concavity into the front of the body and try again.

Help I'm not seeing variables ... p.s. thanks for DP eely pics ..

That big DP danny .. When I made that I had to bend the eye down like a bastadge to get it to swim decent. The orig I copied from (wich had been fished) the eye was bent the same way ..

G. I turned the tail on my SS to a smaller dia. to hopefully allow for the no tail hook. We'll see.:smash:
As far as my Musso daters go I intend to soak them today for half hour periods and weigh them, if too light back in they go till I get the weight I want, that is with the spar sealer. I intend to do a couple in epoxy heat seal too just to fine out what happens.

Probably you know this already, but for those that don't you can salvage them by warming them with a heat gun. The epoxy will soften and come right off. Works for rod guides and reel seats, too.

I have a Nike I made .. looks like its in a plastic bag ... mirror coat ?

Variables
 

I was comparing corresponding features of the BM and the Problem Child that could affect the PC's performance.

Line tie angle. Tail flag vs. no tail hook. Etc...

G- Did you check the amount of lip protrusion below the chin on the BM and PC?

Yup, and I swam it with several different lips, tail flag, no tail flag, loop up, loop down, full tail weight, 1/2 tail weight, 6x and 4x hooks, and 8 grams of extra belly weight.

The BM is a heavier plug it turns out, by about 1/2 an oz (when compared to the original Pichney I based mine on and about 3/8-1/4 oz when compared to the other large BM ss I own). The forward 1/2 of the BM has a slight concavity to it, and the weight seems marginally further forward. I think this lets the head of the plug come down more easily and start working sooner.

My plug (and the original Pichney) sits level and a bit higher. This means the slope of the belly to nose planes the plug up, before the lip gets enough grab to pull it down. Hence the plug "plows" before it swims, particularly as the line angle gets steeper. A deeper lip or a bent up line tie (which is why it is up in the picture) helps some, but not enough. I plan to retry with a higher wire slot lip, a chin weight, and/or a much bigger than original belly weight. I also need to swim the original and see if it shared the problem (and xray the BM to see why it is so much heavier than the other BM's I've xrayed).

This is an issue most guys who fish spinning tackle would never notice. The plug swims fine at medium speeds. But I want stuff that swims fine at lower speeds since I have more confidence fishing that way in the dark. It is very hard to retrieve that slow with a big spinner.

I have worked off and on with a Musso Lipless swimmer for years unable to get things just right. I have an original that you can borrow. If you are interested shoot me a PM. I also have a bottle darter from Musso but Digger has borrowed that and i have not seen it in a while.

Your work is very inspiring.

I was wondering when you were going to chime in.:uhuh:

I made one lipless last winter and fish liked it. I just made some more but have yet to test them, need to get a fishing license and find some open water and time. Mine do not have a concave front.

Interesting lipless. What design is that based on? I have a Lex version, feels real light and no lead in it as far as I can tell. Messed with them on and off, but have yet to get something that I am satisfied with as far as swimming action. Tried some with a tail weight, but they don't seem to swim well. Some belly weight they do ok. The face of the Lex is cupped a little and the angle is different than the one you show. I still have some work to do to get one right.

Jigman

Yes Lex made a version of the lipless swimmer my memory sucks but it was different than the Musso.Next time i talk to Scotty and his friend i will have to ask again i remember talking about it for a while
about it at Diggers house last year.

I just sit around and look as i can't contribute much with my skills :smash:and everyone else pretty much has things down pat here. I learn as much as i can and if i can contribute i will, but the members here are very very good and know there stuff.

The lipless swimmer at Digger's house and the musso bottle darter were both mine that were floating around. Digger still has them don't know where he is with them.

If there is one thing i have tried like hell to make and that has escaped me is the lipless swimmer, at this point i am afraid to even get it right because i don't know what i would do.

I think you know where i want to throw that lipless swimmer Stay well.

Billy if when you get it back from Digger send it over so i can take a crack at it and yes i know where you want to throw it :devil2:.

Lou,

If you are going to the NY Coalition show stop by i will have a booth. If not i will give the plug to Larry or Rob and they can give it to you. I think i have 3 left, about 8 years ago i had 15 that i got from a lucky garage sale find. I miss living in Long Island

Kindest,
Billy

Aaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Got primed and unprimed bodies of all sorts all over the place.
Started painting but nothing comes out right.
With wood and steel I can get what I want. With air and paint everything is a struggle. And then there is still the epoxy to go, :exp:.

Got up at 5 am. Just finished sealing about 25 various bodies...this stuff is a lot of work, I tell ya...got a long beard and haven't seen my family in weeks...WTF.

I'm also looking at the $2000 needlefish(my first almost completed plug) hanging in my basement with paint peeling off and wondering wtf I got myself into here.

So with PlugFest just weeks away????
 

What do you guys have going?? What goodies can we look forward to seeing??:drool:

I hope to have some in sealer by tonight. I slotted and drilled yesterday. I've put myself way behind with recent events and all.:smash:

I was hoping to attend so as to provide comic relief for the masses, but I'll be up in NH with the family. Can I send you something to display if I get the paint to stick? I think the jointed eels are going to be good.

BB I hear you. I went on a spinning spree since a duplicator found it's way in my basement. Over 150 plugs , basically 5-6 designs since November. The turning was the easy part. With the bodies sealed and primed the ardulous tasks start. This wouldn't be as time consuming in respect if it was a day job. After work it's downstairs for a couple hours. Painting is done on the bulk and I started to assemble and epoxy. Thats seems to go forever. I hope to say good by to epoxy finishes some day. I would like to dip finish 1 part waterbase. The search continues. I must say the epoxy finish applied w/ 1" fpam brushes works quick and well. I do 4 seperate batches of 6 cc's and go thru a couple brushes. Mix in new condiment containers for each. Yesterday I wired 3 dozen and coated another dozen. The Atom 5B models are assembled and ready for finish. Needles need wiring but are epoxied and the spin Atoms and the jrs along with the BM jrs need hardware. Let me say when you take on a large batch of plugs it's surprising how fast your plug hardware decreases!

Just finished putting in the eyes and grommets on the best batch I have done to date.:) Pikies and a couple of peanuts.

Everybody gets warned that comes in the door Mike .. Many think we're kidding . Nothing like building the most beautiful plug you ever seen then your final epoxy coat crawls, gets snotty and sticky. This hobby will rip your heart out . You do get past the totally ignore the family stage though ..

There are over 200 plugs in primer hanging in my sunroom above the pellet stove. This is where they hang till they dry. How many I will actually finish this year I have no clue, a mere fraction probably. Intend to do some painting today, first time this year. I am about to get a delivery of vintage plugs so I can get them all documented for future reference. I will make templates, turn maybe 2 per plug to make sure they are exact, and move on to the next one so i can return the plugs to their owner in a timely manner. This is going to take some time so it will eat into my completion ratio but you don't get to touch these classics every day so I need to take advantage of the generosity of this collector. I won't be bringing much to plugfest this year but that was my intention as I want to mingle more this year and finish want I have promised others and myself at a more leisurely pace. This is something I have learned over the last few years, keep it fun with less emphasis on quantity. What gets done is what gets done, no problem mon.:uhuh: don't worry be happy.

I'm at the same stage as prof m, but on a much smaller scale. I'm not sure what will be done by plugfest. I'm trying to get all the wood working done before I start to paint so I'm not painting in a cloud of sawdust. And everytime I'm done I keep thinking of a few more I should turn.

I'm up in the air regarding what to do for the topcoat. I used up almost all my sys 3 clearcoat last year and I'm not sure whether to stick with that or try something else.

Sawdust would help my paint jobs.

Hey Mike ... maybe your going to smooth at the sanding stage . You have to leave some "tooth" .. My first plugs I did my last stage of sanding with glass . (baby food jar,seals pores like making baseball bats) .. I could peel the plug like a banana.. Not sure if this is it .. But you don't need more than 100 grit so paint can bite .. I had trouble with soft primers too .. Can you see what layer its seperating at ? Then figure out why .. Thats a very frustrating place to be .. I wouldn't paint 50 of something while at the stage .. Maybe do that cross hatch test (never did it myself).. Do your paint layers on a board ,,how ever you do it .. sealer,primer,paint,rattlecan?,waterbase?,protecti ve coat , epoxy or final coat .. Let dry .. Take a exacto knife and cut thru your finish criss,cross 1/4" squares,, Take a piece of duct tape and stick it down over that .. Now rip it off like a bandaid ,.. Where did it seperate ? There's your problem .. If nothing comes up you win .. ofcourse epoxy can can fail later in the water and negate all of the above .. At least then you know its your epoxy and where you stand ..

I am betting his adhesion problem is between the primer and the paint. I use 220 grit paper for final sanding....never a problem.

I understand you are "farming out" some of your finish work??:rotf2:

220 paper, but also wipe them down with MS and let them dry for an hour to get the sanding dust off.

I know people like to spray Zissner, but I've had much better adhesion between the sealer and createx by using brush on Zspar marine undercoat 105. You need to sand and wipe before priming and before finish coat. I start my finish coat with a "second prime" of createx opaque white.

I use 220 myself but ran out of it and haven't made it out to buy more ,, probably won't ... may be overkill .. I've been using 100 final .. and 100 wears out pretty fast so its actually even smoother .

I start off with a base coat of opaque white as well Numbscull!

Finally finished everything I started last winter so I've been turning a little bit of everything. I'm realizing I have no need to make more than 2-3 of any one plug for myself, so I'm keeping my batches pretty small only making an extra or two for trading. Also starting a bunch of one/two off prototype stuff to fish over the season.

oooop s ... I'm using 120 :1poke:... no diss Larry ,, your stuff is cleaner than mine .. Funny we all took different paths ... I'm using a coat of flat white or flat black rustoleum rattle can (depending) for a base coat right over CPES ... no primer ..

You know, the paint peeled right off the bottom of the plug but not the top. I did read in a recent post you shouldn't combine gloss and semi gloss paint. I did the top of the plug in gloss yellow, did the bottom in semi gloss white...stuff on the bottom half of the plug peeled off, including the primer, and the yellow is fine. Maybe combining gloss and semi gloss was the problem?

I only did one plug just in case there were issues...damage control is very important to me...:smokin:

LOL:biglaugh: