"We can take up the problem of disease and water quality that is really the culprit in another dream"
Not going to have to worrie about that in 2 or 3 more seasons if we dont stop killing more that the resource can bare..............first things first then we will continue to work on/ forage/ water quality / disease / greed / and perhaps even a little stupidity.......... comment not aimed at any one here just to avoid that rant.

IMO If we blow up the improvements that Providence made in its sewerage system :gorez:

within 5 years the bay S/b fifthy again / but the fishing for all species will have greatly inproved :fishin:

Republican congress already has funding for the Chesapeake Bay program in it's targets. The connection of economic benefits to a healthy population and clean water is way to complicated for most of them. Simple minded just say we should spend less money.

Very well said.
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not my perception.... but it's been one description of convenience to explain why the client needs two fish..."poor guy only gets to fish once a year"...."probably".......that or... he's not going fishing without at least the "perception" of being able to take two bass home.....WHO has an odd attitude toward the charter clients? Seems like most view them as equals, at least that is the sentiment I've read...it's the folks angling for an exception that characterize them as something less... needing special treatment in order to get them on the water?

The argument for DZ and me(I got it from him to be honest), that these are the last folks who should get a 2 fish exception is rhetorical to some degree based on the characterization that has been made by some of the charter folks of their clients.......

"the captain and charter industry don't really want two fish it's the client that needs two fish or the boats will go out of business...the client needs two fish or he won't book a trip...the client doesn't really need two fish, he needs the perception of needing or keeping two fish or he won't book a trip the boats will go out of business....the client only fishes once or twice a year so it's only fair that he gets two fish because others have the opportunity to fish more than that...."


unless I missed something that is the sum of the two fish argument...well, and...there are plenty of bass and a reduction isn't really needed anyway...


and if you don't agree you are selfish, jealous, hateful and you don't know very much..... or something......

I think you mixed in a few of your reasons in there just to make it sound outrages ;)
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Yes it's the GOPs fault you can't catch a bass .
You should research what this Administration has done to the fisheries .
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I don't think Buckman would be so impassioned if his son was not a commercial angler. His emotional ties are those which any good father would express,regardless of the plight of the fisheries. Folks like ourselves are simply unable to understand his urgency. Family first.
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Ha. You're are funny. Guess water quality and bay health is number one goal of the new congress. Stupid is as stupid does.

That's a fair statement and I do appreciate it. But in reality I truly do believe that businesses can be protected and the goal of restoring striped bass can be accomplished at the same time.
As with all regulations there is an extreme at both ends . The economical, the practical, and the correct choices can be made.
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As passionate as many of us have been in this discussion, I feel that we are reaching the point of reiterating our position in a repetitive cycle.

In the end, some see the need to take measures to protect fish first,
while others see the need to take measures to protect personal income first.

We all have our position, and seem to be sticking to it. I am not going to convince some one who's judgement and common sense are blinded by $ to change their views. just the same, no one is going to convince me that allowing a certain group to kill more fish to preserve their own personal income is what is in the best interest for the fish.

I pray that somehow, common sense will prevail and people will decide to help protect the fish we all love. I dont see how anyone can argue that taking an intermission from the rate of killing is a bad idea... might not be what's best for YOUR personal income, but it is what's best for the fish.

I dare anyone to tell me that killing more fish is better for the bass population than killing less fish.

Every single example of 2 fish yields a lower rate of reduction than 1 fish, does it not?

This argument and finger pointing has been going on since the days of beach crews working gill nets... we can only control one thing.. and that's the harvest... everything else requires time, effort, and REAL science...not "science" skewed by personal agendas... the natural progression of life has a way of sorting things out.... the rest is up to us...

-2% difference, That's Still over the 25% reduction we all agree on.Heck it's even 4%HIGHER.
That's not good enough for you. You want everyone to have the same limits. The same playing field, Regardless of the reduction numbers.
As Nebe said, This isn't about the reduction, this is about charter boats having a different limit then rec guys.
Charter boats have different regs for many other species, Why not Bass?
Obviously the powers that be in the past have agreed that charter boats are not the same and set different rules accordingly

They don't fish commercially for bass and don't sell bass.....just saying....
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I haven't heard anyone say put the dollars ahead of the fish. Why are you going to take everything to the extreme?
I'll give you a quick example… Just a couple short years ago we were fighting to keep bluefin tuna from being put on the endangered species list . As silly as that sounds it was a hard fought battle.
Commercial bluefin tuna fisherman are instrumental in setting the harvest quota . The fish are doing well by most standards .
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Saying less people will pay for a charter due to one fish limits is definitely saying it's about money. Come on man.
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I didn't say it wasn't about money, I just said it's not about putting money first ahead of the fish.
Is this really that hard to understand ?
Both objectives can be achieved.
It just dawned on me that maybe the reason charterboats do so well catching fish is we have a zero tolerance drug policy 😊😊
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The problem with charters having different regulations is that the reduction percentages are based on all recreational anglers having the same limits. You can't have different limits for the various recreational user groups and achieve the same reduction.

With 1 @28" the charter guys get hit harder than the average recreational guy who probably has trouble even getting 1@28 most of the time. With 2@33 the average recreation guys get hit harder because they now need to catch a 33" fish instead of a 28" fish and that rarely happens but for the charters it's pretty much business as usual. If you slice it up and the average rec guy gets 1@28 and the charters get 2@33 then the overall reduction drops to well below the target of 25%.

Again, the reduction percentages are based on the entire recreational sector having the same limits and with any of the available options one group is going to take the brunt of the reduction. If you slice it up and cherry pick from the options based on each recreational user group you won't achieve the target reduction.

Let us not forget that the entire reduction plan only has a 50% chance of success. If the plan fails to produce desired results, we may have little to argue about in the future.
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Is that because there are other factors, that regardless of how few we kill ,we don't have control over ?
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The 50% chance of success is used in reference to getting the fishing mortality (F) down to the new target levels within one year. Fishing mortality is the one factor that ASMFC and we as anglers do have control over.

The new reduced target levels for fishing mortality (F) are supposed to help protect the spawning biomass (SSB) which, based on the 2013 stock assessment, has been shrinking. The SSB has been shrinking both due to fishing mortality and other factors that we have little or no control over including a number of years of poor recruitment.

Nor did I state they did.
But I am sure they would make a fortune if they did,with all the fish out there for the taking.
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I was thinking the same thing, great minds think alike . I read here that you can catch them the night before and still make huge money .
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Thanks
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as many of us have stated throughout this debate.... I'm sympathetic to the plight of "real" charter guys who make their living from taking sports out to fish


but- if the ecosystem won't support taking more fish than designated, then end of discussion.....

if the ecosystem can't handle extra mortality, we all just gotta live with that fact.

Tell me the definition of a "real" charter guy.
because the state lumps us all together.
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The boats have striper forever stickers on them and flush hardware that wont snag a fly line ..jk
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As judge Potter said " It's like porn...you know it when you see it."

Those Orvis wearing buggy whippers seem to like the 23 regulators though....
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wait....are you suggesting that the charter captain with the 23 regulator(with possibly a stripers forever sticker) navigating around shallow structure so that his orvis wearing buggy whipping client can cast to fish with a fly or light tackle is not a "real' charter and the orvis wearing buggy whipper is not a real fisherman really fishing? (probably why these guys by and large and many others who engage in various forms and degrees of "real" charter fishing aren't seeking an exception or two fish alternative...they're not really "real")

but

a charter captain with the "6 pack" steaming around dragging umbrella rigs with a deck full of tommy bahama wearing hands free clients(except maybe a beverage) who may or may not have ever purchased a fishing license in their lives is the "real" charter with "real" fishermen? (and these guys by and large seem to be seeking an exception or two fish alternative and in fact "need" one for "perception")

too funny......:laughs: ya know..Orvis waders and a Tommy Bahama shirt might be a good look, need to consult Spence

imagine what the surf guy in a wetsuit swimming out to a rock on a stormy night thinks of those examples in terms of "real" fishing...if anyone deserves two fish for his efforts it's THAT guy!....just kidding


agree with bobber...I was pretty sympathetic to Buckman's plight early on and just wanted him to better explain because I wasn't seeing the logic...and I have become far less so... rightly or wrongly...it seems as though a segment of the for-hire population has succeeded in further isolating themselves over time rather than rally support...we'll see how it all shakes out

Jesus we didn't mean to offend anyone ! I apologize for being so insensitive as I was only teasing . I do hope you can look past your emotions and see the real point. 😊
Who was it that said " real " charters anywho ?
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not offended...thought it was funny where this ends up going(what you drive, what you wear, what stickers are on your vehicle)...you're a little sensitive......I lump myself in with the aging surfguy in a wetsuit crowd which is never a pretty picture and makes the Orvis/Tommy Bahama crowd look pretty damn attractive

Funny stuff
Well not to sound cliché but one of my best buddies is one of the top flyfishing saltwater guides in New England.
And I also like fly fishing.
It was definitely all in jest .
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A phrase I use at work a lot is " Just because you call yourself a ( plumber, carpenter, electrician etc ) doesn't mean you're good at it.

As it relates to fishing, the guys I fish with like to be off by ourselves, looking for pods of bass to cast plugs to or swim live macs at. Just a more fun way to fish for us than using wire. Can't tell you how many times we would be on a small surface feed and within minutes the face masked ninjas would crash through and put the fish down. Or some big diesel trolls right across the the school and spooks the fish. So off we go looking for another small pod of fish to try. While the ninjas go back to fleet fishing around the Rice boats.
We expect that from the beer swilling googans in the bayliners, but a lot of the guys out there don't seem to get the concept. No matter how much they look the part.

I do love fishing out of the regulators though, nice layout and ride.
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I thought I explained myself when I made the statement... "Real charter guys" are those who actually make a living fromtaking people out to fish. not those who take 1 trip a week to help pay for gas/slip/biat (er whatever)- they take charters- yes. But they are really guys with a fishing "habit", and need ways to offset their expenses.

I know- I tried it once too.

having a captains license does not a captain make

I only do it for the special regs and increased limits :hidin:

There you go Scott! Shore guides and kayakers are out !
Actually this is totally confusing to me because you said if the regulations force you to get another job then that's what you have to do.
And there will be no more "real" charter boats
Now I see your plan
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It IS genius really. I think he had a Regulator somewhere in the 23' range and I have fly fished from his current vessel. No more real charters will open up for him to buy Berger Time, his new 23' regulator on which he takes suckers out once in awhile to fly fish for their 1 measly keeper. Those Jersey boys are all alike. Next I will find out he is a closet cowgirls fan like Crossing-closing Christie.

no keepers for you!


friggin guy..... have him over to your house for dinner once in a while and now he tells people I'm a cross dresser from Jersey :shocked: