Let us not forget that the entire reduction plan only has a 50% chance of success. If the plan fails to produce desired results, we may have little to argue about in the future.
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Is that because there are other factors, that regardless of how few we kill ,we don't have control over ?
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The 50% chance of success is used in reference to getting the fishing mortality (F) down to the new target levels within one year. Fishing mortality is the one factor that ASMFC and we as anglers do have control over.

The new reduced target levels for fishing mortality (F) are supposed to help protect the spawning biomass (SSB) which, based on the 2013 stock assessment, has been shrinking. The SSB has been shrinking both due to fishing mortality and other factors that we have little or no control over including a number of years of poor recruitment.

Nor did I state they did.
But I am sure they would make a fortune if they did,with all the fish out there for the taking.
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I was thinking the same thing, great minds think alike . I read here that you can catch them the night before and still make huge money .
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Thanks
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as many of us have stated throughout this debate.... I'm sympathetic to the plight of "real" charter guys who make their living from taking sports out to fish


but- if the ecosystem won't support taking more fish than designated, then end of discussion.....

if the ecosystem can't handle extra mortality, we all just gotta live with that fact.

Tell me the definition of a "real" charter guy.
because the state lumps us all together.
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The boats have striper forever stickers on them and flush hardware that wont snag a fly line ..jk
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As judge Potter said " It's like porn...you know it when you see it."

Those Orvis wearing buggy whippers seem to like the 23 regulators though....
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wait....are you suggesting that the charter captain with the 23 regulator(with possibly a stripers forever sticker) navigating around shallow structure so that his orvis wearing buggy whipping client can cast to fish with a fly or light tackle is not a "real' charter and the orvis wearing buggy whipper is not a real fisherman really fishing? (probably why these guys by and large and many others who engage in various forms and degrees of "real" charter fishing aren't seeking an exception or two fish alternative...they're not really "real")

but

a charter captain with the "6 pack" steaming around dragging umbrella rigs with a deck full of tommy bahama wearing hands free clients(except maybe a beverage) who may or may not have ever purchased a fishing license in their lives is the "real" charter with "real" fishermen? (and these guys by and large seem to be seeking an exception or two fish alternative and in fact "need" one for "perception")

too funny......:laughs: ya know..Orvis waders and a Tommy Bahama shirt might be a good look, need to consult Spence

imagine what the surf guy in a wetsuit swimming out to a rock on a stormy night thinks of those examples in terms of "real" fishing...if anyone deserves two fish for his efforts it's THAT guy!....just kidding


agree with bobber...I was pretty sympathetic to Buckman's plight early on and just wanted him to better explain because I wasn't seeing the logic...and I have become far less so... rightly or wrongly...it seems as though a segment of the for-hire population has succeeded in further isolating themselves over time rather than rally support...we'll see how it all shakes out

Jesus we didn't mean to offend anyone ! I apologize for being so insensitive as I was only teasing . I do hope you can look past your emotions and see the real point. 😊
Who was it that said " real " charters anywho ?
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not offended...thought it was funny where this ends up going(what you drive, what you wear, what stickers are on your vehicle)...you're a little sensitive......I lump myself in with the aging surfguy in a wetsuit crowd which is never a pretty picture and makes the Orvis/Tommy Bahama crowd look pretty damn attractive

Funny stuff
Well not to sound cliché but one of my best buddies is one of the top flyfishing saltwater guides in New England.
And I also like fly fishing.
It was definitely all in jest .
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A phrase I use at work a lot is " Just because you call yourself a ( plumber, carpenter, electrician etc ) doesn't mean you're good at it.

As it relates to fishing, the guys I fish with like to be off by ourselves, looking for pods of bass to cast plugs to or swim live macs at. Just a more fun way to fish for us than using wire. Can't tell you how many times we would be on a small surface feed and within minutes the face masked ninjas would crash through and put the fish down. Or some big diesel trolls right across the the school and spooks the fish. So off we go looking for another small pod of fish to try. While the ninjas go back to fleet fishing around the Rice boats.
We expect that from the beer swilling googans in the bayliners, but a lot of the guys out there don't seem to get the concept. No matter how much they look the part.

I do love fishing out of the regulators though, nice layout and ride.
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I thought I explained myself when I made the statement... "Real charter guys" are those who actually make a living fromtaking people out to fish. not those who take 1 trip a week to help pay for gas/slip/biat (er whatever)- they take charters- yes. But they are really guys with a fishing "habit", and need ways to offset their expenses.

I know- I tried it once too.

having a captains license does not a captain make

I only do it for the special regs and increased limits :hidin:

There you go Scott! Shore guides and kayakers are out !
Actually this is totally confusing to me because you said if the regulations force you to get another job then that's what you have to do.
And there will be no more "real" charter boats
Now I see your plan
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It IS genius really. I think he had a Regulator somewhere in the 23' range and I have fly fished from his current vessel. No more real charters will open up for him to buy Berger Time, his new 23' regulator on which he takes suckers out once in awhile to fly fish for their 1 measly keeper. Those Jersey boys are all alike. Next I will find out he is a closet cowgirls fan like Crossing-closing Christie.

no keepers for you!


friggin guy..... have him over to your house for dinner once in a while and now he tells people I'm a cross dresser from Jersey :shocked:

and if there was EVER a shore guide or kayak-guy who truely derived his income from guiding..... I'd buy the guy a beer.

I think I'm pretty safe

makes things even clearer for me...
here's the solution:

now that we've established that there are "real" charter guys and "not real" charter guys it and appears that it's only a fraction of the "real" charter guys that feel that they need a two fish exception to stay in business we just need to determine who they are, verify that they are them and grant them an exception.....the other option is to give all of the "real" charter guys two fish(many of whom say they don't want two fish but who might be pressured by their clients to keep two fish against their will) along with the "not real" guys who probably don't deserve to have their "clients" get two fish anyway...that would be a waste and unfair

here's what we do.....make it 1@28 for all recs...keeps it nice and simple...easy to remember

"real" charter guys who believe that they need two fish for their clients who fish once a year in order to get them to book trips so that they can remain in business can apply for an exception....

fill out an application...real charter guys will have to meet a threshold for percentage of income derived from chartering (no rich trophy wives subsidizing, trust funds, retirement income or selling fish to your restaurant friends on the side, or using someone else's boat)...this will weed out the "not real" guys pretty quickly.....and simply have the once a year client purchase a second fish tag before the trip(this will provide important data for the future and ensure that clients won't abuse the "real" charter guy's exemption and help solve any possession limit issues that might arise)


seem reasonable?

I'm curious if you have ever been on a sixpack charter . Mate maybe ? It's not just the captain that earns money from charters . There's a whole economy that surrounds this business. You sing a different tune in the political form 😀
I can honestly say I have fished off the rocks and in the canal my whole life and I suck at it . I have not had the pleasure ,as many in this thread have , of participating in the massacres at the canal.
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sure have...not my favorite way to fish(not a canal guy either)...not sure how my tune has changed..looking for equal treatment for all recs...think the "special interests" need to show an actual need if they want special treatment rather than just giving blanket additional benefit to a segment of the recs(on for-hires) because their representatives scream the loudest or have well placed friends.... but I very much appreciate how hard those guys work in often tough conditions and having the responsibility of the lives and safety of their charters...if i have a "jealousy" it would be over their ability to be on the water frequently. tell me why my solution would not work, there only a couple of caveats, and satisfy all interests and how this economy surrounding the charter business would be adversely affected? I'm happy to cede a second fish(giving you what you ask for) to a "real" client (who doesn't have to opportunity to fish often and might not without a second bass) of a "real" charter (who believes and demonstrates that the second fish is essential to the survival of his business) ...as was pointed out...there's probably lots of pretenders out there who will benefit from two fish who probably shouldn't if there is an exemption granted all charters and it sounds like they're easy to spot:eyes:... as well as many who say they don't want that second fish but might be or feel obligated

I just got off the phone with the DEM and since 99% of the crowd here swears they do not keep any fish, they will allow Buckman and his son to catch as many damn fish as they want :D

So you want to give the guys with the 50 passenger party boats who pound block island twice a day, a 2 fish limit because they are "real charter boats" but the 6 pack guys who take clients out 2 days a week aren't allowed because it doesn't represent a high enough percentage of their income?
Brilliant

Lol . I appreciate that but it's not about me or my boy
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Your a very generous guy being willing to give up one of "your" fish so somebody, who "you" deam worthy , can have a second .
Do you see a problem with that?

I have merely stated that I don't believe that the sky has fallen far enough that it has to be a do or die situation.
As a sidenote… Yesterday was the last day to send in your letters opposing a closure of a huge segment of Stellwagen Bank so it may be set aside for fish "research" only... I'd like to thank all here who sent in their letters opposing the closure .
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LOL, I know, but all of these guys remind me of the Global Warming crowd... If the law makes the catch of bass different for charters, like they do with almost all other fish, then that's the law. I see no reason for all of the arguing and telling me the world is going to end if "it's not fair" if some guy paying $500 for a trip, to a licensed charter gets to keep 1 more fish than I do....

I am working on a way to capitalize on this by selling "bass credits" sort of like carbon credits, you buy my "bass credits" and I will plant rocks in hidden locations to protect bass.

:D

sounds like they might get to do it either way...unless everyone is fishing at 1@.....the Canal massacre was an interesting point... the way things stand , the Canal massacre should be half as bad next year...looks like the BI massacre could be pretty much the same