Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1237058)

Today, the democrats are ALL OVER republicans who deny the results of the 2020 election.

But here are quotes from democrat house leader Hakeem Jeffries...

"Climate change is not a hoax. But 45's election may have been".

"Trumps election integrity commission should investigate his so-called victory".

"the real hoax is likely your so-called election victory".

So can someone just clarify for me, when is it OK to deny the results of an election, and when is it wrong to do so? When is election-denying acceptable, and when is it unacceptable?

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dem...ying-elections

Originally Posted by wdmso (Post 1237060)

Give it up Jim your being Intellectually dishonest again

It’s easy jim it’s one thing to say “so called election victory”. it’s totally different when you actually try to steal it like Trump and the Republicans did

Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1237058)

Today, the democrats are ALL OVER republicans who deny the results of the 2020 election.

But here are quotes from democrat house leader Hakeem Jeffries...

"Climate change is not a hoax. But 45's election may have been".

"Trumps election integrity commission should investigate his so-called victory".

"the real hoax is likely your so-called election victory".

So can someone just clarify for me, when is it OK to deny the results of an election, and when is it wrong to do so? When is election-denying acceptable, and when is it unacceptable?

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dem...ying-elections

Originally Posted by wdmso (Post 1237063)

Give it up Jim your being Intellectually dishonest again

It’s easy to clarify it’s one thing to suggest I think the election wasn’t fair it’s totally and completely different when the President of the United States and his administration and other Republicans and supporters actually try to steal the election .. that’s not even disputable

Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1237066)

After 4 years of order, leadership, and governance under a House Democratic majority, I present to you…The current situation in the House,

The Chi-coms, Stalinist Supreme Soviet, and, dare I say, the Nazis had very ordered governance.

Turbulence in our House of Representatives can be far more beneficial for keeping our Federal Government in check against being a well ordered cabal lead by the false authoritarian promise of taking care of the people.

hilarious though it is, shows one important thing. If your entire political party is chosen based on the desire to hurt other people, they will, given the opportunity, hurt each other.

If words and disagreements hurt you, then you should surely seek employment somewhere other than the political arena.

People who harm have no ability to restrain themselves from doing harm. They also have no love nor loyalty to each other. Hate and harm are the whole of their being and they will exercise hate and harm regardless of target or consequences.

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Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 1237074)

People who hate and harm our constitutional form of government and wish to replace it with a promised, supposedly benevolent, authoritarian state will not restrain themselves from that endeavor. And they will exercise that hate and harm against those standing in their way and will ultimately feed off of their authoritarian nature by subjugating, punishing, anyone that threatens their power. They will gather committees and cabals around themselves to create the attractive air of orderly consensus in order to please and pacify the populace with a show of justifiable and legal righteousness so they then can remove, with trials and investigations and indictments, those who oppose and threaten them or their agenda, thereby permanently destroying them by irreparable harms and punishments.

Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1237075)

Bolsonaro landed in Florida. He’s afraid his passport might be revoked now that presidential immunity no longer shields him from criminal investigations, so he went to Florida where he plans to spend time with other fascists like Trump and DeSantis.
Desantis's idea of freedom sure seems to resemble a authoritarian govt the way he's going after private businesses

Going after private businesses? Like in how he is attracting businesses from high tax states.
He acts very business friendly. It's like he's going after businesses to move to Florida.

and minorities. DeSantis doesn’t pretend to be moderate; being a far-right culture warrior is his brand. Journalist/author and scholar Henry A. Giroux analyzes DeSantis’ appeal in a scathing article published by Truthout on December 16, and he doesn’t sugarcoat anything. DeSantis, Giroux warns, is “fueling the emergence of fascist politics in the United States.”

Fascism has been continuously fueled in our politics through increasing public/private "cooperation" between our Federal Government and oligarchs that run our large corporations of all types, which all pre-dates DeSantis by a longshot. Progressivism is a political precursor to our growing fascism as it was/is the ideology that demands unlimited government. All it took was for those of great wealth to meld with that form of government in a scratch my back I'll scratch yours. The symbiosis diminishes competition against the big businesses by partnering (financially supporting) with a hyper-powerful government which can impose regulations which stifle the ability of smaller businesses to compete. Intended or not, that is the consequence.

“While some pundits have connected DeSantis’ politics to an emerging authoritarianism,” Giroux explains, “they still fail both to name the ongoing development of fascism in the U.S. and to recognize that it takes different forms in different societies and historical formations. They dismiss any talk of fascism by suggesting that its unique historical attributes, such as the genocidal use of concentration camps, have to be repeated precisely in order to assign the term fascism to present events. Fascism is never entirely interred in the past; it is a dangerous ideology that may go into remission but never disappears.”

Sounds like he's saying that "fascism" depends...

Giroux continues, “Fascism is a recurrent and infinitely translatable phenomenon and often takes on the cultural and political attributes of the societies in which it appears. The refusal to acknowledge that fascism can appear in many forms, often lying dormant in a society until the emergence of certain forces unleash it, reinforces the willingness of many to retreat into silence or ignore the seriousness of the emerging fascist threat. Expressing ourselves in words, learning from history and making connections among disparate events all matter in the age of fascism.”

Sounds like he still hasn't nailed what fascism is . . .

Giroux stresses that when one is analyzing fascism, it’s important to recognize patterns and understand how individual events fit into the big picture — events like DeSantis sending migrants to Martha’s Vineyard, Massachusetts or Trump having dinner with white nationalist and Holocaust denier Nick Fuentes at Mar-a-Lago.

Wow, sending migrants to Martha's Vineyard is a sign in the "pattern" of fascism . . . and having dinner with all types and persuasions of people including white nationalists and Holocaust deniers is a sign of fascism. Maybe I'm wrong, didn't Trump have dinner with capitalists, and Democrats, and Repulicans, and gays, and black people, and atheists, and religious folk . . . all types of people . . . wow, some fascist-by-dinner association.

“Fascist politics saturate U.S. society,” Giroux warns. “Ultranationalism, the calls for racial purity, voter suppression, hyper-militarism, required loyalty oaths from higher education faculty, rampant censorship, a ubiquitous anti-intellectualism, and a full-fledged attack on social provisions and public goods make clear that democracy is in crisis.

Trump's nationalism was "Ultra"? Is DeSantis Ultra too? Are they hyper-militarists? Or ubiquitously anti-intellectual? Or have a full-fledged attack on "social provisions" and public "goods"? This guy is really reaching for something . . . I guess something he thinks is "fascism." Mussolini was actually an intellectual and both he and Hitler solidly supported social provisions and public goods for their people.


Yet, in too many cases, the larger significance of these incendiary calamities is missed because they are treated as separate from each other…. DeSantis’ publicity stunt of using migrants as political pawns was also disconnected in the mainstream and liberal media from his attempt to erase the history of the Jim Crow era as part of his larger project of a politics of disposability.”

I thought that encouraging migrants to flood across the border was using them as political pawns--oh well, to each his own. Is DeSantis going to dispose of all the Hispanics and blacks in Florida. Hadn't heard about that.

Giroux continues, “For instance, little was said connecting this racist policy to DeSantis’ passing laws banning books about Black history and racial narratives from schools and libraries, along with limiting what teachers can teach about racism — a policy that clearly indicates how DeSantis is following in the footsteps of the Nazification of education in Hitler’s Germany.”

DeSantis banned all books about Black history? Well, of course not. Nor does Florida issue statewide bans on specific books. Is DeSantis following in the footsteps of Nazification? That would be sort of a Hyper or Ultra type of statement.


Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán, a far-right authoritarian, has drawn a great deal of admiration among MAGA Republicans — including Fox News’ Tucker Carlson. And Giroux outlines some parallels between DeSantis and Orbán.

"Some parallels"--one could draw "some parallels" between Giroux's methods in writing this essay to how Nazis and various authoritarians and Fascists present their "facts" and ideas concerning what they want you to think is true.

“Following in the footsteps of Viktor Orbán, the authoritarian leader who has turned Hungary into a fascist country,

I guess it depends on what you mean by "fascist." Giroux never clearly spells that out. And throws in a bunch of ideas which are either untrue or guilt by comparison or association, or just hyper-slanted, propagandistic like a good "fascist" would employ.

DeSantis has waged a war on immigrants, targeted gay and transgender youth, purged voters, banned books in Florida schools, limited what teachers can say about racism and other critical elements of American history, and used state power to punish businesses, evident in his ruthless and vindictive attack on Disney,” Giroux observes. “He has also used policing to punish Black voters who disagree with his policies, courted Christian nationalists, supported a white nationalist agenda and waged a war on higher education. There is little doubt that DeSantis has turned Florida into a laboratory of fascist politics.”

Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 1237077)

Wow, that last paragraph is ultra-hyper propaganda on steroids. I notice that this is the leftist, often rabidly accusative, but lacking in actual hard substance type of articles that you really like, and think will persuade rational people.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1237078)

pete, what specifically did desantis do to “target gays”? please be specific and 0
provide support. the “don’t say gay”
bull actually didn’t mention homosexuality at all. it said that no sexuality ( not heterosexuality, not homosexuality, not any kind of sexuality.

i’ll wait.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1237078)

pete, what specifically did desantis do to “target gays”? please be specific and 0
provide support. the “don’t say gay”
bull actually didn’t mention homosexuality at all. it said that no sexuality ( not heterosexuality, not homosexuality, not any kind of sexuality.

i’ll wait.

Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1237079)

I think it can persuade rational people,

Of course you do. As I said, you like that kind of stuff.

that description doesn’t fit everyone.
Listen to you and Jim.

The Giroux article is written in a propagandistic manner. It was easy for me to point out how so. It was the usual name-calling, label loaded, insinuative, unsubstantial, biasedly narrow, lacking depth of rational, honest, and thorough analysis. It was, as I pointed out, a rather rabid run-of-the-mouth hit piece meant to convince some left leaning choir that Trump and DeSantis are fascists that "fuel the emergence of fascist politics in the United States.”

That's all part of the emerging fascist technique of labeling opponents as a means to destroy them--e.g. insisting they are racists, fascists, Nazis, white supremacists, misogynists, homophobes, anti anything or anyone that they think are oppressed and can be brought into the fold of Progressive fascism by painting ideologically seductive verbal pictures.


Now tell us more about Molyneux and the other brilliant people you’ve found on YouTube.
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Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 1237082)

I already have. And I didn't consult YouTube to respond to your article. Just my own native intelligence and crafted my own words. What did you consult to find it? Fox or The Federalist?

Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1237083)

Of course you calling people names is quite correct in your own mind so you produced this statement.

“ The Chi-coms, Stalinist Supreme Soviet, and, dare I say, the Nazis had very ordered governance.

Well, those were their real names, not pejorative labels-- Chinese Communists (Chi-coms--shortened version), Stalinist Supreme Soviet, and Nazis. What else should I have called them?

Turbulence in our House of Representatives can be far more beneficial for keeping our Federal Government in check against being a well ordered cabal lead by the false authoritarian promise of taking care of the people.”

This was a parallel construction sort of in your style as a counterpoint mimicking your post that I responded to.

That’s the logical end point of a person in a party that has descended into mindless demonization—of Democrats, of immigrants, of the 'deep state,' of the FBI, of the medical profession, of the 'woke' military—and now of one another.

Ah yes, the canard that it was "demonization" and so adroitly magnified with the snobby addition of "mindless." Well done.

Claiming that this is how the House works is the end result of what happened to the four GOP US House speakers in modern times…#^&
Newt Gingrich quit in frustration in ’98
Denny Hastert served 8 years (later convicted of finance and sex crimes)
John Boehner quit in frustration in ’15
Paul Ryan quit in frustration in ’18

This is systemic for the failed Republican Party, not McCarthy’s personal problem.
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Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1237070)

I agree with you stealing and denying are very different. You are the only person I know besides my wife, who argues with me when I am agreeing with them.

But when Republicans deny, you say that are bad. When this democrat denies, you defend him.

You guys constantly insult republican voters who had nothing to do with January 6, but who think that 2020 wasn't a fair election. But you have no problem when a democrat does exactly the same thing.

Please stop saying I'm being dishonest for making comparisons that I never made.

Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 1237074)

People who hate and harm our constitutional form of government and wish to replace it with a promised, supposedly benevolent, authoritarian state will not restrain themselves from that endeavor. And they will exercise that hate and harm against those standing in their way and will ultimately feed off of their authoritarian nature by subjugating, punishing, anyone that threatens their power. They will gather committees and cabals around themselves to create the attractive air of orderly consensus in order to please and pacify the populace with a show of justifiable and legal righteousness so they then can remove, with trials and investigations and indictments, those who oppose and threaten them or their agenda, thereby permanently destroying them by irreparable harms and punishments--and clear the way for their plans to remake our government a centralized, top down administration by elite masterminds supported by wealthy oligarchs.

Originally Posted by wdmso (Post 1237088)

You just described the MAGA movement to a T
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Originally Posted by Got Stripers (Post 1237090)

Get ready for another banner day for the dysfunctional Republican Party.

Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1237092)

It’s why the US is now nothing more than a managed democracy. When (most) of our elected officials have become beholden to campaign funding from special interests/lobbyists/corporations/billionaires, legislating for the public good becomes a conflict of interest & thus impossible.
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Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 1237098)

There's a lot of truth there. It's a kind of the emergence of fascism. And its been emerging for a long time, at least a century, and we're getting closer to beyond emerging and to actually arriving. And it has a lot more to do with the Progressive movement's goal of managing society by government fiat and expertise than much, if anything, to do with the MAGA Movement which is far less authoritarian, more freedom oriented, more against being managed, more of a don't tread on me than a give me a government controlled existence.

Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 1237098)

There's a lot of truth there. It's a kind of the emergence of fascism. And its been emerging for a long time, at least a century, and we're getting closer to beyond emerging and to actually arriving. And it has a lot more to do with the Progressive movement's goal of managing society by government fiat and expertise than much, if anything, to do with the MAGA Movement which is far less authoritarian, more freedom oriented, more against being managed, more of a don't tread on me than a give me a government controlled existence.

Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1237102)

Sure it’s progressives fault that we live in the only developed country where medical bankruptcy exists.
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