Mass Audubon and the such would rather protect wildlife at all cost than manage it in a scientifically proven way. I've seen deer on those properties and wouldn't hunt them even if I was given the chance. Wildlife that is not managed properly can and does become a disaster very quickly, just look at the beaver, skunk, coyote and fox population explosion in Mass. It's a freakin nightmare! The Audubon society is far removed from what John James Audubon had invisioned. He was a woodsman, hunter and artist(who also killed the birds he drew). Just before the anti-trapping laws were initiated, I was a member of Ma. Audubon as well as a member of the Appalachian Mountain Club that both pushed the issue ahead. I asked that my opinions be printed in their op-ed sections of their publications, for I thought these measures would be both unsafe and unwise. I was immediatelty denied and I revoked my memberships with both organizations. You may not all agree with trapping but some folks still trap for supplementing their incomes as well as feeding their families, Its a long time honored tradition. IMO it's just a start for these folks to eventually force no hunting laws across the country and yes, fishing is also a target for them. They may not be as extreme or radical as PETA but they're not far behind. Have you noticed how these groups are joining together to get a bigger "bang" for their buck? If anyone of us honestly think that groups such as these are here to manage animal populations, you are gravely mistaken. :doh:

So go to them with solid PROOF and FACTS. Not just "have you seen the number of woodchucks eating my garden?! OMG!".

Prove what you say and they'll change things.

I love this plover thread.

I hope they will be off the indanger list soon, I thought they would be off by now.

I remember a few years ago,they closed a beach on Nantucket for the season because of one plover only to have another bird eat it :)

I also have seen them build a pen for them on state beach(MV) with cars 10 feet away doing 35 ! crazy

And how many did the Gov kill on Monomoy ?????? remember the old seagull's falling from the sky ? lol

Glad to be in America

VB

thanks, ed b.

basswipe, i put the word respected in quotes for that exact reason - our view may not be as respected, but to others, they are respected organizations. it's not just the "hollywood types" that donate. there are hundreds, if not thousands of people in politics, business, or just plain rich that support these organizations and their views. you may never even hear from some of these people as they just give a donation. and, they may not donate $20 or $100 to these organizations, they may donate millions at one time. my point being, they have financial funding - big time. so, research is easily done and paid for while smaller organizations have to do all they can just to scratch for money to "fight for our cause". is that fair? no, but that's the way it seems to work.

now, i'm not saying greenpeace or audubon are equal in their beliefs, but they both have large followings and receive much in donations. that's why i grouped them, as both will favor the plover in this type of debate.

and, just to break off the plover for a minute, do you think that's the only bird or wild animal these organizations could "protect" on our beaches? there are other birds listed on the endangered species list and the same rules could be moved to them next. it is our job as public citizens to understand the laws (both state and federal) when it comes to our rights and the rights of these protected species. to sit back and complain about it on a msg forum helps no one. be one that can respond factually if confronted by someone who sees the view from the other side of the river and not go by what you "hear", which may not have any foundation. even tho' it was edited and removed by sandman, he had some facts to back his position. how many of us here can do the same instead of just shouting the "taste like chicken" stance?

I'm not a biologist of any sorts but we have them at Mass. Dept. of wildlife and fisheries and they gripe about these folks to no ends. Ever talk to one yourself? In a democratic society we should listen to opposing views, weather we agree with them or not. When these groups won't even have the guts to listen to the other side, that spells trouble to me. Solid proof? I guess you don't read the news much. Seen coyote attacks lately? Almost a weekly occurance. No beaver problem? Talk to the countless property owners who have been flooded out causing thousands of $$$$ and to hear the state say there's nothing they can do about it, its the law! Ever hear of rabies? Have you noticed the mutitudes of dead skunks on the roads lately? There's your proof. Seen starving deer lately? Come to my neighborhood, I'll show you some, its pretty pathetic. Woodchucks by the way make great hats and mittens when I catch them on my farm. :behead:

So write a letter to the state.
Get a campaign going, don't just say "WELL I TALKED TO THEM AND THIS IS WHAT THEY SAID". That's not action.

And as far as coyotes attacking and starving deer, blame that on the amount of development in MA, not overpopulation.

Look at the number of goddamn condos and cookie cutter houses they're putting up everywhere that don't need to be there, I for one enjoy living on a somewhat quiet road in the woods of SE Mass.

Historically we had wolves here, if they ever show up again are you gonna complain that they ate your cat?

VB... Plovers are no longer on the endangered list, they have been upgraded to the Threatened list for the last couple of years. No matter where they set the numbers of breading pairs, once that figure is met, the orginazations paying for the studies, manage to get the numbers increased. The state announced earlier this year they will no longer fund protecting Plovers for this reason... MA Audobon, (which is not affiliated,or sanctioned with National Audobon, or any other Audobon group), said they would fund the money instead. It is not, nor has it ever been about the birds, I have been told this angrily to my face in a parking lot, outside of a public hearing, that did not quite go the way the anti- groups wanted. The next tool in the arsenal, to get access closed to vehicles and foot traffic will be the wrack line. The 1999 report I mentioned has the first mentioned studies of the wrack line, and impact studies. My prediction is that this issue, will come more to the fore, as the Plovers continue on their comeback.
I do not hate Plovers, or any other species... I have set more than my share of exclosures, set many a fence line, and even helped erect closed area fence, as well as "symbolic" fence. I just do not "get" why some of these people who clame to love life so much, put people and their rights last. Especially when they cannot support all of their arguements.
I do agree that Man has created more than his share of problems, but the last time I checked we were at the top of the food chain, it is up to us then, to maintain, and control what goes on out there.

Enuf , this dead horse been beat too much. :D

- By George Brennan

Plovers close Eastham beach to pets
Due to the return of piping plovers,
A piping plover roams the edge of the dunes at West Dennis beach yesterday. Last year six piping plover pairs closed part of the West Dennis beach due to nesting.
(Staff photo by Kevin Mingora)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

no pets will be permitted on Coast Guard Beach, south of the former Coast Guard station until further notice, Cape Cod National Seashore officials announced.

Piping plovers are listed as an endangered species by state and federal regulations. Dogs might disturb them while they are nesting.

Seashore officials reminded dog owners to keep their dogs leashed in areas where they are permitted and to pick up after them.

Federal law requires dogs to be on a leash no longer than 6 feet at all times within the Seashore.

It's the first closing this year due to the arrival and nesting of the piping plovers. Last year, nesting plovers forced the closure of more than 300 spaces at West Dennis Beach, starting May 31, and half of the oversand vehicle corridor from Race Point Light to Long Nook Beach in Truro in the Cape Cod National Seashore.

Also closed was most of Nauset Spit in Orleans and a section of the south end of Nauset Beach in Chatham.


Hi Karl, what's for supper :) todays paper

VB

Hi VB...
Never believe everything ya read in the paper... was that CCTimes? If not let me know, I'll be right up their... er, I'll advise them accordingly ;)
Several Groups still refer to them that way... but go do a google.... ya get the straight dope from the Feds.

Also for the record.. Hi Ed... I am a member of MBBA, no longer serve on the Board of Directors, still an acive member, participate at cleanups and volunteer, I still attend the hearings I can make... I make no claim to speak for the club,,, just me and my big mouth :D

How do you think my campaign would fare against multi-million dollar organizations? These folks don't listen to biologist, why would they listen to lil ole me? They believe our states biologist work for sportman anyhow. As for starving deer, I'm sorry to report, it is over-population and the lack of will of home/property owners to give access to their land. Everyone loves to watch bambi feeding in the backyard but when bambi begins to eat ornamental plants and begins to be a problem on the roads causing accidents, then the people complain. Deer are urbanized and thrive quite well if maintained correctly. You can have 3 deer per/acre and they will live comfortably, add 1 more to the heard and they will all begin to starve, not just that added one. I agree goddamn condo's and cookie cutter houses are a problem, but thats urban sprawl and population growth. We can't all live in the city or a quiet road in paradise. As for wolves eating my cat, I can live with that. That what wolves do. But when wolve's, coyotes and mountain lions begin to drag your children into the woods, call Ma. Audubon and complain.

"The Atlantic Coast population of the Piping Plover has been federally listed as "Threatened" since 1986. It is also listed as "Threatened" pursuant to Massachusetts' Endangered Species Act."


From the FWS web page......

karl, piping plovers are protected by the endangered species act (esa). somehow, the usf&w broke the piping plovers into 3 "sub-species" by where their summer territories/breeding areas are. these "sub-species" are the atlantic coast, great lakes, and northern great plains. the atlantic coast population is considered threatened. the northern great plains population is considered threatened. the great lakes population is considered endangered as they have less than 100 breeding pairs. the atlantic states population in 2003 was 1676. northern great lakes is about the same numbers as atlantic. since they supposedly winter together (still unproven), they are considered threatened on those wintering grounds - north carolina being one of them. together as a whole, the populations are greater than the 2000 pairs needed to be removed from the esa. but divided as they are, there are issues. each state has their own designation on the bird status. n ri, ma, and ct it is threatened. in ny is is endangered due to the birds on one island and the great lakes population.

so, even threatened, the bird has just as much pull as if it were endangered.

I've been thinking of printing these stickers for a while.....