Skip, go to the library and check out '1984'. If you think what is going on is fine, then you need to read this book.

oh, and just so you know, the US. Goverment, moniters what books you check out too :hs:

Oh man the goverment might know i like to read about fishing and history....well will this insanity all end!?:tooth:

If I worked for the NSA, CIA, FBI I would have my own filter.........."eels","spots","needle","fifty pounder","lami","plugs":laugha: :laugha: :laugha: I'd have everyones secret spot.

Seriously.....I gladly give up some of my "rights" to live in the best country in the world. What did Jack Nickolson say in that movie...."you can't handle the truth". There is allot of secret stuff that all these agencies do, within the law and out of the law, to make our country safer for everyone. I am sure there is many things that you never even here of happening, and that is the way it should be. The media loves to show secrets or little known tactics of these agencies. It is neat to know this info, but once the cat is out of the bag then it no longer works. Best to keep lots of things secret from the common public. Just my .02c

here's the way i look at this.. (from a teenage perspective)

The national guard will be looking for terrorists on the Golden Gate Bridge, with hummers on both side, their trying to sneak up on this terrorists if they see any, thing is, they're dressed in camoflauge clothes, the face paint and all.. and for those who forgot, the Golden Gate Bridge is Bright Orange.

I think this whole terrorist thing has gone way to far, bush has passed the line. Definitly guard your rights, cause the way i feel right now, they've already pretty much taken them away. thats my .02

-kate-

"I think this whole terrorist thing has gone way to far"

Way to far are you kidding me? what you think its some big scam and made up? Do you remember 9/11, the bombings in London and Spain? and you still think this is blown outta proportion? With all do respect thats the mind set that got us where we are in the first place, we let or guard down and got wacked, we didnt take terrosim as seriously as we should have.Yeah lets pretend terrosim isnt a real threat and maybe it will all just go away.:doh:

Skip,

To give up personal freedom in response to terrorisim is akin to giving in to terrorisim. It's exactly what they want.

-spence

No, But its definitely becoming a convenient excuse. Everytime this administration makes a mistake we here that word. Its like their own little "Get out of Jail Free"card.

What personal freedom are we giving up in this whole spying thing!? They are spying on suspected terroists not you and me for god sake!? Are you concerned about the terroists personal freedom? I dont see how this is so damn hard understand. It does not affect you and me Spence it only affects suspected terroists. Unless you have plans to do some suicide bombings or are fiancing terroists none of this affects you or I.

Please give me an example of when the administration used terroism as an escuse to cover thier ass on a non terroism related topic? Are they out there blaming terrosism for people not having jobs or something? This outta be good...

Oh I don't know....But Spying on the Public illegally comes to mind. Which is what this thread is about.

Skip, why do you think a warrant is required before the police can enter your house?

-spence

Please Define "Suspected Terrorists"

What makes one fall into this category.

Wiretapping
 

Almost 300 million legal residents of this country and this spying on suspected terrorist occurred 30 times, 30 times. Oh my Gosh.....

Did you see the presidents news conferance today? I think he does a fine job in expaining the whole ordeal. I think the majority of americans will be on his side when they realize whats going on and why its being done, and who its targeting.. Then again you guys think Bush lies about everything so you wont believe it anyway:doh: Kinda funny to that the intel comittee knew all about this spying ordeal...maybe even some liberals knew about this. :uhoh:

Well, I believe the President has authorized the program 30 time...not 30 individual wiretaps...

-spence

[QUOTE=Swimmer]Almost 300 million legal residents of this country and this spying on suspected terrorist occurred 30 times, 30 times. Oh my Gosh.....[/QUOTE


Oh but those nice terrosists have had thier privacy vilolated. we cant do that to them its so not right. :doh:

Typical anti Bush crowd looking for anything to take him down. this is just thier latest try.

The Constitution
 

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
We the people of the Unitied States-legal resident only.....

insure domestic tranquility....ah whats this

promote general welfare.....well-being of our residents

Does anyone here realize how elastic the constitution is?

Both sides of the argument in this post is all here in the preamble.

Hey what about all those fisherman that spy on us to try and find the good spots? I had to buy a new boat to get away from them!!!!!
Are they part of the government conspiracy too?

And how about all them spot burners? Do you think we can get the feds on top o them too?

How about the credit card companies selling you buying habits or our amazon selling the customer activity on their website.

How about the company selling traffic information based on cellphone activity?

We live in an increasingly publicly visible society it's part of the way of life. You can't hide, you can't and be a normal part of society.

The president appears to be breaking the law to achieve the same results if he had gone to the special courts which will rubber stamp its approval even after or within the 72 hour spying period.
There always seems to be a conflict with this president.

"The march to war affected the people's confidence. It's hard to make investment. See, if you're a small business owner or a large business owner and you're thinking about investing, you've got to be optimistic when you invest. Except when you're marching to war, it's not a very optimistic thought, is it? In other words, it's the opposite of optimistic when you're thinking you're going to war. War is not conducive to -- for investment.
-- George Bush -- Springfield, Missouri, Feb. 9, 2004

I think thats what he's saying here....but sometimes i need to buy a vowel when reading his speeches.

and the War in Iraq IS Directly linked to the War on Terrorism......in W's own words.

If you dont know that by now you really havent learned anything since 9/11 have you. Lets see here...someone who is known to communicate, fund or support terroist activty might raise a red flag or two to most normal people. Dont ya think?

Like the typical libreal you are its so obvious what you were hoping i would say....Everyone who looks middle eastern is what you wanted me to say right? so you could go ahead and call me a racist right? You people are so predictable its commical. and very out of touch with the reallity of the war on terror and how serious it is. I thank God everyday we have someone in office who understands the reallity of our enemy and how savage they are. we would seriously be %$%$%$%$ed if someone like you, who has no clue who the enemy is was in power.

"and the War in Iraq IS Directly linked to the War on Terrorism......in W's own words."

nah there are no terroists in Iraq nor have there ever been:doh:

Skip;
What defines a terrorist or suspected terrorist?
Where is the line drawn. If I send an anti-Bush email to a buddy am I suddenly flagged and now they can read my library record? Where is the line drawn?
You really think Bush knows an F'ing thing about how savage and the 'reality' of our enemy? Bush knows what his people tell him to know.
So tell me who the Enemy is, if 'someone like TDF or Spence of me' doesn't know???
Maybe because you just typed Iraq and terrorist in the same sentance you're now pegged as a suspected terrorist how does that make you feel?
And typical conservative, can't admit something the Bush administration did wrong......

I would be very curious to have anyone name one US citizen that lost any of their civil liberties as a result of the patriot act. Non US citizens do not have civil liberties from the US constitution.

The ability to defend our country by whatever means necessary is what we have lost

Hmm.. the War in Iraq comes to mind.....

The point I was TRYING to make was that you can't tell. I wasn't trying to label you a racist, I was trying to point out the fact that you just can't tell. So how does the government make the determination that they need to snoop on you. Where do they make the determination someone is a threat...thats what scares me about this situation. can they just go looking and say "Well I thought he might be a terrorist"

And Why is it that everytime someone disagrees w/ you they are labeled a Liberal. I am not a liberal. That seems to be your fallback argument for everything

I believe that people should work hard for everything they get and should not expect handouts. I also believe that if a person truly needs help we should give it to them.....not because of my politics but because its the right thing to do as a human being.

One more thing, in all the threads we've posted in, I have never attacked your character and I would appreciate the same respect and consideration. I don't paricularly care for your politics but I would not use terms like "people like you" or "we would seriously be %$%$%$%$ed if someone like you" in any of my posts.

RI,
I am a conservative and will admit what and when Bush does something wrong, i.e., the borders, spending to name a few.

I think it is more accurate to say that Liberals/Democrats will not admit when he does something right. It is also accurate to say that they Liberals/Democrats will not admit when there party does anything wrong.
We all know that there is not much that they have done right!

First off:
I would admit to it it Bush was right; Immediatly after 9/11 I thought he was doing a pretty OK job; unfortunetly he has continued to duck and run on alot of issues.
As far as the last part; I'm leaving that alone. No flame wars :D

I think most everyone thought he was doing well then. But, like everything else, time has a way of making people forget why we are where we are today.

I was there on 9-11 and I will not forget why and where we are. It is a shame that the feelings of patriotism and pride in country are such a distant memory for so many.

No President is perfect. I think if more people remembered, we wouldn't be worrying about affording non-Americans civil rights providing by OUR consititution.

I think this is the problem...that's not really what this argument is about.

We have a process to ensure that exceptions to civil liberties (i.e. wiretaps, snooping email etc...) are applied lawfully to all people. The laws for non-citizens may be different, but we have no idea who's being watched do we?

Bush is asking the American people to let the policy makers judge who's a suspect and when their civil rights should be infringed in an effort to provide safety.

If history is any guide, then it's clear the Government has a track record of misusing similar authority under many administrations. Nixon illegally spied on Vietnam war protesters, even detaining them at times to silence dissent.

Even if Bush's intentions are good, it's a slippery slope they are well aware of and intentionally skirting. Existing law gives plenty of authority if used properly.

The old "I'm not worried because I'm not doing anything wrong" argument doesn't really cut it. I think Barak Obama said it best:

Others are looking out for you, but are you returning the favor?

-spence