I think the herring ban can only help. I just hope that they dont go right back to the old ways next year.

Clearing something up. The russian ships stay away a few miles, its our guys netting/selling to them as I understand it :uhuh:

Lets just all take up golf, I'll set up the t time, we can still wear our waders, and korkers, that'd be nuts, knocking balls outta the water traps with waders on... whaddya say?

Just to make it really clear, the Russina ships stay tied to the dock. They used to dock in Jamestown, but I think they moved somewhere else last year.

I'm in Massachusetts. The rec scup fishery was shut down around the end of August and the comm limit was first doubled, then more than tripled.

Ahhh, did they shorten your season due to an "overage"?

Last year the States of NY,CT,MA & RI were allowed to choose a 4 month scup season starting either May 1st or beginning July 1st . MA opted to start on May 1, RI & NY opted to start on July 1.

I think we had the late season in CT. I don't remember too well, but I think we started July 1 and went into October.

1st, the Russian ship was not allowed to fish, only to purchase from our (US) fisherman, so stop right there. 2nd, there are river herring, and sea herring, and both are in huge trouble, no matter what someones eyes might tell them. There are trawlers all over the New England waters, all year round, netting the sea herring by the thousands of pounds, and they dock in local piers, and sell their catch to the highest bidder, just like every other fishery known to American man so to speak. The bulk of herring caught are not used as bait, except in chum and oil as they are a delicate fish and lots of "chuff" by-product comes from the procccesing plants to provide plenty for this purpose. Herring does not freeze all that well, thats why you don't see it in flats like many other bait sized fish are. As to its live bait effectiveness, I don't think anyone will argue that it is a killer bait, but let's explore the ability of the common man to keep herring around, live and kicking, for a cost as well as time effective bait.
The way I see it, it is too difficult to keep more than a few alive unless you have a car large enough and in an area where it will get enough tidal flow to keep them alive, as well as protected to keep critters or fellow man out of them. Not to mention the constant vigil for dead fish, as one will quickly lead to many dead. Enough about my opinions as to its merit as a bait, and back to the basic issue, which is should there be a closing of all runs. Absolutely is the answer. You've had your 5 or 10 year study in the counting of these fish that so many members here seem to deem necessary, not with a man with a clicker, but by optical counters installed in many prominent runs on the eastern seaboard. The numbers are so drastically and dramatically down from their historic past that I find it difficult to believe any well informed person would declare that because there are thousands in an isolated area that the stocks are fine, never mind many other tell tale signs which obviously point to a severly depleted stock.
These river herring in question return every spring to the same general areas off the coast, and then the ancient call to spawn draws them into the river and stream systems of our watershed, but as to whether it is the exact river or stream, no definitive answer is agreed upon by those that study them. However, as witnessed everywhere, fish attempt to get into streams and rivers, long ago closed off by dams or spillways. Take Newport, RI as a prime example. Every so often, herring show directly off 1st beach, and even a few make it into the moat to die. These fish could not have been born in the big pond, as the spawn cycle is roughly a 4-5 year time frame from fry stage. Other rivers reopened after many years to the sea supported herring runs in subsequent years.
This was along time ago though, as the thousands have now turned into hundreds or none at all at even the most prolific herring runs of old. From NY north through the Cape and beyond, the last 4 years have been a severe and steady decline in returning numbers. No returning fish means no new fry in the ponds. That means in 4 years time, poof, gone, bye bye. An immediate shutdown is necessary to determine if the current 1, 2 and 3 year old fry can turn around the depletion that this year(4th) will have produced. Any available adults left to spawn in the next 2-4 years should be allowed to do so without interference from man, as the ospreys, stripers, and other natural predators will pick off quite a few without our help. Can you honestly tell me that a closure would really put that much of a hurt on the recreational fisherman?
Don't think a fishery could crash that quickly? Ask your local Atlantic Salmon what he thinks. Very similar life cycles..........

Oh, yeah, and Makomike, to REALLY clear things up, they remain on anchor, in the bay. They made them switch from East to West Passage of Narry Bay, but always at anchor, never at dock.

Squidler.. i couldnt agree more :kewl:

i havent seen that Russian boat in a year or 2...:huh:

U guys make nice martyrs.
Guys have been taking Herring for bait about as long as i been alive.
A rec.herring fishery closer is useless with out a concurrent closer by the comm.s
Another case where the recreational fisherman has to tke the hit because a fishery is being overrun by greedy goverment subsidized commercial fishin fleets.Who basically have no regaurds but the almighty dollar.They have been doin it for yrs.There's a long list of usta be species.Its all about maximum yeild.Good luck tryin to change anything as they are major contributors to a goverment run by greed.Just say goodby an get used to it.
Now I expect some friend of a commercial fisherman will say I don't know what i'm talkin bout or its the seals or somethin.Or I am insensitive to the plight of the romantic art of the fisherman.Ya i cried watchin the perfect storm.Take a look at how successful the commercial ban on netting mullet has been for the state of florida.
The goverment simply stopped dumping money into a tired old american industry an bought em out.Florida went from a dead see to a fishermans dream.I really don't know why we can't do the same.A farmraised fish talapia is quickly becoming one of the worlds favorite.More should be done in this type of fishin or we will soon have nothing left.

Remember those 3 mile slicks behind the boat out the bay when it was in East Passage? The seals used to pile up on citing rock off Rose Island. Haven't seen them that thick since it left.

Those trawlers are the pariahs of the oceans though.Wish they would make the entire commercial fishery go back to hand gear and vessels under 65 feet. There are enough farm raised fish out there to supply the world's fish needs. With Tilapia now available, which is a 98% vegetarian(that means no fish are killed to feed these fish, unlike other fisheries which kill roughly 3-4 fish to raise 1 adult food fish)
fish, they could use them for fish meal and oil to rear the other more desirable fish. Hell, the Japanese are now farming Mahi-Mahi and pen rearing Bluefin tuna quite successfully, along with zillions of shellfish and shrimp.
A hand gear only i.e rod and reel, hand line, or harpoon only, no nets over 10 feet in diameter, no pots over 5 on trawls, etc. fishery could support many a bayman again and supply the local markets with fresh fish as well as domestic and international trade with gourmet and high end restaraunts. The price would remain at a premium, facilitating a healthier marine economy as well as pay base for the fisherman and their families. It would also create a safer commercial fishery, enabling the entire fleet to fish closer to home and under better weather by relieving the incredible pressure that large scale commercial operations place on the environment. Not to mention our by kill of many fish discarded when non discriminatory practices are prevalent.
If we really want to change for the better, IMHO thats the only way to go. Don't threaten to cut them off entirely, only force them to micro size and change their ways......

Were you lookin over my shoulder NIB??? :hihi: seriously though, my point above about closing the harvest in the streams is simply to allow the few remaining out there to SPAWN, They cant do it if they cant get back to the stream. Of course commercial fishing needs to be addressed, and soon, but irresponsible taking of a not so important baitfish by recreational fisherman is just plain stupid. There are too many alternative baits both natural and man made that work wonders on the game fish we seek. Do you think it is co-incidence that so many "great" fisherman continually put massive fish on the beach or boat with artificials??? There are so many effective baits out there that it should be easy to switch. Adaptation is the key to mans ingenuity, and most great fisherman adapt.
Our biggest problem as humans in regards to the environment is that we feel the fate of the earth, along with its "other" inhabitants is different from that of ours as humans. It' s not. By helping troubled species all along the food chain when we can, we better help our fate, period.

Shutting down the runs is the only resp[onsible thing to do. Go buy some nice pearl colored slug gos in 9 inch, some storm shads in same size plus 6 inch, a few needlefish plugs, and some nice Pt. Jude tins and eel imitators, and youve done your part to relieve the pressure on 3 different troubled bait species; herring, bunker, and eels. Youve also pumped money into the local retail economy, have caught a few nice fish if your using said lures properly in th eright conditions, and you can look and the mirror and ignore the ugly face you see cuz you dun your good deed for the day, samaritan.:buds:

Hey I'm a responsible sporstman.I agree wit shutting it down if i thought it might do something.It's really not gonna make a difference. lets see em(comms) make the the same sacrifices for the fishery.

Just because they wont do their part, doesnt mean we cant do ours. If 50k go in the Bournedale run again, and spawn, then 4 years from now there will be spawning age adults from that same Bournedale run or whatever run you insert. By protecting the spawn, you protect the current stock with same commercial pressures. its basic math. The protection of spawns in all species can result in increasing the populations of these animals. The same problem is happening in reverse with eels. The adults go BACK to sea to spawn, yet we harvest them prior to that in freshwater before they can spawn. We harvest the herring before they make it to their freshwater to do the same. Notice a trend?

I disagree that you not taking your 600 or so will make an impact. Look what they did with just 2 mating pairs of ospreys in the Westport river system. Just 2 mating pairs and 12-15 years later over 500 mating pairs along the surrounding river and bay systems.

If we shut down the runs, we allow the healthy, strong, hoprny fish to get in the pond and have at it layin eggs and shootin milt. 600 here, 6000 there adds up, all about the math.....

:lurk: till morning :buds:

AFAIK there is no commercial fishery for blueback herring.

[QUOTE=squiddler] There are trawlers all over the New England waters, all year round, netting the sea herring by the thousands of pounds, and they dock in local piers, and sell their catch to the highest bidder, just like every other fishery known to American man so to speak. The bulk of herring caught are not used as bait, except in chum and oil as they are a delicate fish and lots of "chuff" by-product comes from the procccesing plants to provide plenty for this purpose. Herring does not freeze all that well, thats why you don't see it in flats like many other bait sized fish are. QUOTE]

When I fished out of Montauk we used to buy frozen flats of sea herring for bait all the time.

Pen raising saltwater fish has its own problems.As has already been shown with farm raising salmon these fish by virtue of being raised in pens are genetically inferior to their wild counterparts.

These fish have been known to escape in enough numbers and interbreed with wild populations and introduce their infererior genentics into the general population.This can cause a host of problems mainly which is the newborn fish are prone to disease.

Don't get me wrong farm raising fish is a good thing but its techniques need to be vastly improved.

Obviously fish farm raised soley in self contained freshwater ponds don't apply.

You can't change a pickel back into a cucumber. The fish wholesale industry has aggressively marketed over the last 10-20 years to establish new domestic and foreign markets. A quaint, smallboat, "bayman" type fishery would never be able to supply today's demand. Since demand would far outstrip supply, prices would skyrocket. Maybe the doulbled, tripled, or even quadrupled prices would be enough to convince the dealers, proccessors, and wholesalers that they'll still be able to maintain thier very comfortable lifestyles despite a downsized fishery.
Many nations place little or no restrictions on thier fishing fleets, despite heavy international pressure to do so. Unilateral action by 1 or 2 countries will never be effective.
Unfortunately there is no easy answer. Days-at sea regulations only show limited success. Boat buy-back programs have been uneven at best and a ludicrous waste of taxpayer dollars at worse (case in point: US gave subsidized loans to boat owners in the 70's to build more, bigger, more powerfull scallop boats, then offered to buy them back in the late eighties/early ninties to reduce fishing pressure).
Round & round we go... where it stops....

:hs:

Pen raised fish are genetically identical to their wild counterparts, because they are taken from wild stocks, corralled into floating pens, and fed at a super rate to yield large fish quickly. That is why you do not see crazy prices like you used to for Bluefin tuna, as the Japanese(who drive the main demand anyway) can control the market much better. You just don't see single fish fetching those 20,000 plus price tags anymore.

Farm raised fish do have their basic problems, but the Chinese have been farming fish successfully for over 2000 years. They can rear 4 different types of freshwater fish in the same pond, all benefitting each other and the environment.

In regards to Salmon farming, it is an industry that needs major improvement, I will agree. These fish are often times raised solely in fresh water farms like you mentioned, but they can and do escape even these, breeding with native stocks etc. and also polluting the hell out of the surrounding lands.
Yet shellfish farms and pen reared fish do not have these problems you mentioned above, as they use natural stocks and tidal areas to keep the water clean and healthy.

What is AFAIK ?

Is there a commercial fishery for ATLANTIC SEA HERRING?
I guess what ur tell me its the rec.fisherman takin to many.not the bycatch._Please.Where are the American Shad.They all swim the same basic waters.net em up put em in a can they all taste the same pickled.

saw them there a few days ago.

golf cant even be compared to fishing or hunting,golf is boring!!!

i think its a mix of non U.S. and U.S. comercial fishing and river herring mixing with sea herring and also alot of poaching at night at the herring runs. my grandfather tells me how the russian trawlers would come in and it seemed like they would scoop up everything in the god damn ocean,my grampa hates those bastards and people that hurt the ecosystem.my grandfather would watch the herrings runs like a hawk back in the day and report them or take matters into his own hands

everyday the bucket goes to the well

one day the bottoms gonna drop out

AFAIK=As far as I know.

Yes there is a commercial fishery for both sea herring and shad. NMFS says that by catch of river herring in the sea herring fishery is minimal. By catch of river herring in the shad fishey could be a problem, but I think the commercial shad fishery in New England is mostly gone now.

FWIW, I lived on the Palmer River in Rehoboth most of my life, walking distance to the herring run and shad fishing areas. I moved South to Newport this year, but prior to that I've always had a REAL good sense of both the shad run and the herring runs on the river both because I fished it constantly and because I was a herring officer for the town for several years. So since I'm 28, we'll say I have a good 18 years or so of unscientific data in my head. The Palmer supports, as far as I know, the only American shad run in Narragansett Bay. IMO the size and quantity of those fish is as good as it ever was, maybe better. Yet the herring (both bluebacks and alewifes) are almost gone. You can stare at the ladder and the waterfall for hours and see nothing.

Not sure what the point of this is or what it indicates if anything, but it certainly supports the idea that there is little to no American Shad fishery if it is clearly healthy, at least in that river. If the shad were falling victim to the same sort of commercial fishing the herring are, I would be very aware of it.

The Shad run on the Merrimack, which was second in size only to Connecticut only 10 years ago has been going down hill steadily since then and is a matter of serious concern to MDMF

The classic Shad run on the Delaware is nothing like it used to be.