The formation of the Cpae Cod National Seashore was a truly great thing. Think about it, what would it look like on the outer cape if not for the seahores protection?

We just have to make our feelings and wishes known to the CCNS/NPS. Groups like the Sierra Club, Wildlife Defense Fund, Audobon Society ( who's local director made a point of telling everyone how there is new "scientific" evidence that orv use is detrimental to the seashore ecology).

Fieherman historically never ban together as well and as organized as the groups opposed to us and what we enjoy do. That needs to change. Gob bless the MBBA for coughing up the dough and making the commitment to fight this legally. FW would be surely proud.

We need to bring on a younger generation to pick up and carry the banner when we no longer can, a cursory glance through the crowd at the meeting Saturday was depressing. It was like a senior citizen club meeting. This cannot go on. Everyone needs to get involved if they want to see a change. Your money pays for the park, it's employees and funds the wildlife studies and the laws derived from that. The NPS has to be reminded that they work for us and that we. all of us are the rightful owners of the park therefore we should be granted tyhe rights to vote on it's use and regulation. The advisory committee is a good ol boy network. Being appointed by sitting memebers is reprehensible. Membership on that committee should be by popular vote and ballot. With each interest whether scientific, fisherman, orv enthusiast or conservation and law enforcement being put to the public scrutiny and vote. That committee is a sham.

There are corridors closed for no good reason and the public comment in a public forum should not be squandered by reason of time allotment by NPS officials who are there begrudgelingly and don't want to really hear what they will hear. Goverment agencies are funded by the public domain and as such are public servants not above the public in anyway shape or form. They work for us and should work with us, if they don't they should be taken to task to defend thier actions and sent packing if the wrong people are in the wrong place.

Working on figuring out exactlty who are on the committee's Flap, and how one gets on those committee's as well. Fricking disgrace as to the Ptown rep on the ORV committe, found out today she has attended 1 meeting in about 5 years. But that says it, who knew?, and now that we know how does one go about changing it, but working on it.

As far as buying a permit next year or not folks, if we just say %^$# it, then the Seashoe will look at it, say the revenues don't support ORV access, and continue to shut it down. I can piss way $150 real fast, but I think spending it on the permit sends a message, and still does give us access. I sound like a broken record, but e-mails etc to all interested parties, attendance at meetings like last Sat., and support to MBBA and their legal fund will continue to keep the spotlight on this issue. Without voices, the access will truly go away, birds or no birds.

Fish On,

I understand your point of view. Seeing you are a business owner and this stuff impacts you and your local economy directly, there is no reason not to battle it. What's happened with many of us is that the $150 dollar permit isn't where it ends. Most people travel 2-3 hours to get out there and want some type of certainty upon arrival that they will be able to access the fishing grounds. I used to make a lot of one-two night trips out there, but won't anymore. Lots of people in my position too.People aren't planning vacations around the beach in the same numbers as they were a few years ago. Factor in the gas and other expenses you incur, and its more like 300-400 for a couple days of parking lot fishing and listening to everyone bitch. Not worth it by any means in my mind. I have the canal,gansett, and wesport all within 1 hour of my home if I want to fish. No hassles in those places,either.

You can find out who the committee people are easily.Google the CCNS advisory committee, and you can get the meeting minutes and names of all people involved. I did it yesterday. Can also get the operating budgets and all that stuff if you are interested from the same place.

Your points are all valid ones, the same ones I say to the Seashore and Chambers of Commerce - the people won't come, when they have other options available to them without the hassles. The concern becomes what happens when access at an area such as Race Pt becomes smaller and smaller and then access just disappears. Now everyone goes elsewhere (and granted my Tackle Shop sucks the big kahoona!), and the crowds start to go up in those limited spots. Then another species shows up at another one of those spots, and it starts all over again, and that spot becomes diminished. Or, the enviro's (just the crazed ones) start targeting additional areas - talk to the folks at Hatteras. Before you know it, overall access is almost nothing.

I guess that's why it's really good that the MBBA is looking at this issue with the larger East Coast organizations, looking at the bigger picture.

My put is to keep up the fight, any number of ways. If one wants to buy the sticker to show support, great, if one wants to donate the $150 to MBBA legal fund that's great too, go to meetings, write letters, e-mail, phone calls and so on.

P.S. - thanks for the google advice, I will do that!!

Flaptail and FishonNelsons hit the nail on the head. The number one most important thing that has to be done is to stay involved and go to the meetings. That means you :point: ...MBBA is setting up a legal fund and people absolutely should donate. But the key is that everyone has to participate in some fashion for this to work.

Some guys say "Ahhh the hell with it, I'll fish Rhode Island. Less hassle." You've got to be kidding me, the access in RI is ten times tougher than on the Cape. In RI you make secret deals with people, pay during a specified short time interval for a pass to park on a public street and park at other places wondering if your car will get towed. We lose parking every year and when there is a meeting at a town hall to voice concerns, nobody shows up except for the token few like DZ and now maybe Bob M from RISAA. And those few who show up have trouble just finding out when the meetings are in the first place.

You hear statistics like there are 1,000,000 fisherman who come to MA and 300,000 to RI. Meanwhile nobody shows up when they take away our access, that's sad. :doh: Staying home because you were "too busy", "had something to do", "painted plugs" or "went fishing" hoping that someone else would carry the ball is not good enough if you really care about your fishing.

Once the access is gone it's pretty much gone for good. Show Up at meetings, donate to MBBA, or participate like Fishon suggested, but do something. Together in numbers we can make a difference but we need the participation from all, and there's no excuse for us not to get it.

Ed

:claps: :claps: :claps:

Can someone post the email address, mailing addresses,& phone numbers, and the most important points to out line in a letters/email, lets make it easy to get to these people so we can let our presents known.

MBBA Legal fund
 

Well.. as the former Chair of the Legal Fund Replenishment Committee for the MBBA, (this is not a new fund, been one there for years, and moneys have been spent out of it for years, for access, but not at the current level) I'd like to say Thanks to all those that are out there suggesting that folks donate to the fund. The "War Chest" that the club members have built up over the years, is being used to pay the legal tab of the enviro/access Law Firm hired to look into what we can do to keep the MA beaches open.
MBBA is also afiliated with UMS, and numbers (memberships) are key also, the more the better.

It only costs ten dollars for a new membership, so you might want to consider that, if you are thinking of contributing to the MBBA legal fund.
www.mbba.net, there is a form you can download, fill out, enclose that all important check, and mail it in. Membership is open to all, as are donations to the Legal Fund :btu: you don't have to join to donate, but please consider it.

BTW.. gonefishin and myself are in the process of building plugs for access.. we wil donate these plugs to the Legal Fund Replenishment committee, and at the clubs spring meet at Scussett beach there will be a table set up, a 10 dollar donation to the fund will get ya a plug.

Plugs for a cause. Thanks ,again, Karl.

When the price went to $100 I said thats it for me!! And I am glad I did, this is all BS!!
The outer beaches are now owned by the seals and birds!! And they get it for FREE!

I now a boat only guy and fish much better places with out filling there pockets for noting!~!~

I am all for a drive on!! that will get something done!! Have the media there!

They wanted to close the Bass river bridge too fisherman this summer, everyone got toghter and jammed the bridge, the result was that plenty fished there all summer with out trouble.

Lets pick a date and all hit the beach!! Make it a dam parking lot!! The rangers won't even be able to get on to do anything about it!!

MJ, I understand your frustration with it all..However.. The above is just what those that wish, and work hard, to close the beaches, want us all to do, cave, give up, and go away...

Call me Stubborn.. Call me stupid.. but .. Not gonna do it :D

Good point, can't deny that happens. Overall, though, there is a lot of public access in both Mass. and RI. The entire National Seashore has plenty of access in spite of what is being argued here. It may not be the "easy" access where you drive right up to the water and cast a line, but its all accessible legally if you are serious about it and want to walk a little. The tougher access keeps the crowds out, which can ruin the fishing at times, too.This is true just about anyplace, and to me is a plus in some ways. From purely a fishing point of view, the people who are really serious will always find a way(legal but challenging) to the water.:devil:

Great point Mike. I bet most guys on this board (except Flap) have never fished the Clay Banks. A long walk from Head of the Meadow but you use to be guarenteed a 30 if you took the hike. I killed myself one than once dragging a fish back over a mile and a half.
Balliston was "hot" in the mid-90s for 20s and 30s. But if you walked a couple of miles you could find 40s and you would be all alone. Once dragged a 42 back took me the better part of an hour.
The problem has become most of the guys want to drive to the spot, get out cast and then drive to the next spot. I think that, because of the birds, those days are over.

Even in th early 90s, when this bird stuff just started, they would close the Back way before the Mission Bell. We walked a mile to the Bell more than once and "tonged" big fish. To old for that crap now but the point is there is still spot to fish even when the beach gets closed.

Now the friggin" seals are another story....

The NPS is not the big bad guy people seem to think. NPS is bound by the Endangered Species Act, The Migratory Bird Act, The MA Endangered Species Act, and the MA Wetlands Protection Act to name a few. Each of these laws had little opposition when fishing advocates were screaming for public support trying to get them adjusted.

Truth is MA has carried the Northeast Flyway's most amount of birds for over ten years. Over the same ten years, the number of nesting pairs has been above the "recovery goal" in the Piping Plover Recovery Plan. Bottom line is that the people of MA have done all they can while other States on the East coast have not. The Piping Plover Recovery Plan does not allow for "Regional Management" once the "Region" or the "Northeast Flyway" has reached "Recovery numbers" as is the case. To worsen the legal end, Endangered Species Act reform is being taken off the agenda in Congress due the the recent election and the political changes it has brought to DC.

The only place in the legal chain that governs the management of the NPS that DOES NOT REQUIRE a vote in DC is the actual Piping Plover Recovery Plan. This document is written by the Piping Plover Recovery Team that works out of the US Fish & Wildlife Office located in Hadley MA. Headed by Don Fillmnan, outgoing President of MBBA, a strategy has been launched here in MA to negotiate, pressure, and/or take legal action to change the Piping Plover Recovery Plan. The law firm hired is the same firm that has already won a law suit against NPS over the improper designation of Critical Wintering Habitat in the Cape Hatteras National Seashore and is considered to be the best of the best when it comes to challenging the Piping Plover Recovery Plan. This Strategy is being exercised both here in MA and in DC. I am personally involved in the work being done here and in DC and can assure you that both the Recreational Fishing Alliance and The United Mobile Sport Fishermen (UMS) are involved in this strategy.

Meeting attendance and letter/e-mail writing will help but it is not going to be the main way to keep the beaches open. The right people are already involved and the real work happens behind the scenes in a very professional atmosphere.

If you want to really make a difference, the real need is MONEY. We are talking about a strategy that will cost tens of thousands even if there is no law suit.

The Delegates of the United Mobile Sport Fishermen (UMS) have already recognized the far reaching importance of this struggle and donated $2000 just for starters. MSBA will be taking this subject up in the near future.

My challenge is this...We all say that S-B is a club. I agree. Well, then let's act like a club and throw a fundraiser to donate to the MBBA Legal Defense fund for the specific purpose of furthering the strategy that has a shot of working.

If you want tot do something further, call the Cape Cod Chamber of Commerce and tell them how you feel and that you want them involved in funding this action also.

For the record

Captain Patrick Paquette
Executive Director--United Mobile Sportfishermen
National Access Representative--Recreational Fishing Alliance

The really rotten part of this is the plovers Have recovered....here in MA. It's the rest of their nesting habitat that has fallen behind. Patrick is right it's money that rules this contest. Now, my half-arsed thought process has been mulling this: Declare ourselves "Lords (and Ladies) Protectors of the Piping Plover". Swear to protect them with our blood if need be. Join the bird nuts and accuse them of slacking in their duties. Ask them to stand aside, thanks, we'll take it from here. Seriously, I bear no animosity toward the wild life on the Outer Cape. I enjoy to my depths of my soul plugging with those little birds running around my feet. I feel in close contact with this Planet at these times when it's just me and the animals who live there, always have. I'll donate to keep that. Don't know what I'd do without it. Time to stand up, guys. I won't leave the beach with my tail between my legs.

Unfortunately I was unable to make the meeting. I for one travel 4 hours to RP. Have been going there every year since I was 2! Its not just the fishing but a family affair and family tradition. As much as I would love to get up and go whenever I want (birds permitting) I just cant. Fact of the matter is I work for a living as well as having things going on during the weekends so I have to plan my trips around the rest of my life as do most of us. While we always try to make the best of each trip I will say this year has really stunk as far as access during the times I could make it there.. but I will still continue to buy the permit every April for as long as I can. Its the closest thing to a second home that I have. Year after year I sleep in the same campground, see the same folks, shop at the same tackle shops, stores and restaurants that I have grown to love over the years.

The CCNS is a true treasure to all of us and should never be taken for granted. Its beauty is mesmerizing to me, the history of the land intruiging, and its allure neverending.

:(

This last part of that article Karl posted a link to seems like a dig to me.

------------------------

"Speaking in favor of protecting the plovers was Provincetown resident Sandra Larsen, who thanked park officials for their enforcement of the plover protection program.

“Your efforts are an inspiration to the generations to come, teaching the lessons that others have lost sight of in their pursuit of recreation which comes at a cost too high to pay,” she said. “Thank you for taking an unpopular stance and please do not yield to those who cannot see that your demonstration of respect for the existence of the plover exemplifies a most profound respect for the rest of us.” "----------------

OK, I don't think anyone at the meeting or any of us fisherman/4x4 offroad users have lost sight of conserving nature, we speak in favor of protecting plovers also. It's the people who use the supposed endangered plovers to keep vehicles(therefore us)off the beaches. Some people just have too much time on their hands and feel the need to take up some cause just to fight something, maybe they are jealous because we enjoy the beaches, those people need to be reminded that we are very respectful of the sensative beaches and it's wildlife. The issue shouldn't be an us against them kinda thing. It's about access and alternatives for access to work around the federal laws to protect nesting plovers.

I bet she sleeps on down pillows!!!:bgi:

Hypocrite!:sleeps:

You are absolutely right Bruce, we have be better them and more radical than them in keeping the protection of the plover first and foremost while also being better than them in thinking up alternate ways to access the beach at the same time. I know this can be done and that collectively we can profer a solution to this, they are only human after all and have way less experience on th beach. We have to be able to also offer undeniable evidence that our way is doable and non evasive to the birds mating and fledging. That is the only way your going to beat this, you have to be smarter and be able to prove it.

Flap and others have it correct. To just say that the ESA is wrong will get us nowhere. The current strategy to "adjust" the Piping Plover Recovery Plan to allow CCNS & the two local towns to manage both birds and access was based on just that theory. Federal officials continue to push those working on this issue to go for a section 10 permit which would allow for "take" of a bird and this is not what the "pro access" reps want to happen. Unfortunately, it may come down to that being our only option, however we feel that because the Northeast Flyway has been above the "Recovery Goal" of nesting pairs for over ten years, then we should have some relief in the plan. If the whole coast was at the "Recovery Goal", then the whole plan would trigger an automatic shift from protection to management of the species. It gets worse because the actual data on these birds is turning out to be dead wrong with regard to where they will and will not nest. When the interdunal roat to the lighthouse closed becsuse there were two (I think) nest on it, the long held belief that Plovers would not nest anywhere but between the Dunes and the shoreline was shatterred. The scientists can not admit to the theory that the CCNS is actually becoming overcrwded as far as the Plover Population because this would give ammunition to those that beleive we should move into the management phase on CCNS. I get baffled because I would think the Plover Advocates would want to herald this info and would want to use CCNS as a model for other areas. A declaration of recovery, even in the one state, would give them some clout to force protections in other areas on the coast, however it would trigger management here at CCNS. I for one beleive both Man and Plover can co exist on the beach, but we have a lot of work to prove that and then get a couple of competeing government agencies to agree.

I agree and disagree with this statement.
I for one feel that yes, the majority of people, ones who appreciate nature and will look out for the birds can co-exist with them. The problem I forsee, and I imagine the managers is that your average person who uses the beach wouldn't know where to look or even what a plover is.
How can someone who doesn't know what the bird is pick one out of the sand when they are barely visible, and then avoid them?
For me, knowing the area where the birds are and where the nest is, often times I can't see the birds.
I have heard solutions of allowing a "spotter" to walk in front of the car looking for chicks in tracks to allowing rangers to walk in front of vehicles. I don't know but it doesn't seem economically feasable. Plus what good is a spotter if he doesn't know what he is looking for or doesn't care if there is a bird in the way? Then what do you do if there is a bird in the track? run after it and chase it away?

I think it is going to be very difficult for the birds and people to coexist on the beach. I sure hope it is possible, but i think the bigger issue is that not everyone who uses the beach uses it for fishing and many of the peolpe driving on the beaches couldn't give 2 s hits about the birds at all. Unfortunately just like in the cases of losing access due to trash and noise, the actions of few are hurting us as fishermen. in this instance i think that your average beach goer is hurting us more than the fisherman. generally fisherman are conservation minded and fully support the rebuilding of a species, look no furthur than our striped bass. but its the guy from new york city who wants to run his BMW on the beach that is the problem. Can the park service allow "fisherman access only?"
I don't think there is any easy solution, its a national park, how can it be open for a select group and not for others?
Its a shame that we are losing access left and right, nothing beats a nice :ss: on the beach looking for fish. hopefully we won't lose the access that we all seem to be working so hard to maintain.