And the same Democrats who voted for it before they voted against it.

While important in a broader sense, in the context of this thread it's a moot issue. There's no military only end game...You must have not been paying attention the past three thousand posts.

Or perhaps you really don't care.

-spence

Back then practically everyone from #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney to Scrowcroft to George Sr, Powell, Schwarzkopf, The Saudis, The French, The entire coallition agreed that going to Baghdad would have been a mistake, and far more costly then where they had gone to at that point (and it was 200 something troops lost by the end of the ground war). Up until the end of the ground war the Coallition forces were able to practice deception and mobile warfare across mostly unpolulated desert, maximizing their firepower and minimizing - usualy - that of the Iraqi forces. Much like in GW2, the road to Bagdhad was easier than feared but GW1 had the luxury of not needing to go door to door.

Had the US Forces decided to chase and get Sadamm other member countries of the coallition may have stopped fighting or god knows what....



This current situation is absolutely horrendous. If the options are to stay and fight the bad guys over there (many that we created) or to "Redploy" as some call it, we're in deep sheit. Due to the gawd awfull planning (or lack of planning) and execution by this administration our prospects for changing things over there in a possitve matter at the expense of our young men & women is rapidly diminishing.

The prospects of leaving there are almost as bad or could be worse. The region could go up in smoke. But hey, maybe of they are all fighting each other over there, instead of us over there, things might be better?

Who knows - if we leave a vaccuum then maybe the Saudis and Syrians will prop up the Sunnis, Iran backing the Shiites - Arab on Persian Crime writ large. Shoot - might take the pressure a little off Isreal if GW3 happens between all of them.

I know hindsight is 20 / 20 but this was a colossally STUPID thing to do. Errors were then compounded by mistakes and then compounded by lack of reality.

Nobody knows, and certainly the Limbaughs and Hannity's of the world know jack on this too (I woun't pick on O'Riley becuase he isn't bright enough zip his fly the same way twice).

I was too young to remember what life was like for those of us in the land of the Big PX during Vietnam. But I honestly felt that our country and government had learned for those harsh lessons and wouldn't eff things up badly again. I assumed that how the military took a real hard look at itself and learned from it's lessons that the same could be said true for the politicians - boy was I naive.

The American soldier, grunt, airman, and squid are now paying, yet again, the highest price for poor leadership. This time around - much like the last time around, our military, our good people bust their asses in all sorts of conditions that would make most of us here (that didn't do it) really grow up. They and their families are paying for bad decisions and bad policy.

I want leadership. I want a long term plan. I want incopentent Government people out on their ass - especially Bush and Rummy (still can't happen soon enough).

Do you think this would have been effed up by the numbers so badly had McCain (or any other more competent leader) been in there 6 years ago? We probably would not have gone into Iraq in the first place. IF 9/11 had still happend (and almost assuredly it would have regardless of who was at the helm) Afghanistan would likely be over now and perhaps a more effective War on Terror would have happened with more buy in from around the globe....


Sorry - Rant Off

PLEASE, ENOUGH WITH THE RATIONAL, HONEST AND OBJECTIVE THOUGHT.

-spence

PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE ALL you new DEM's

Nothing "new" dem about me. I voted more R on this last ticket than not. I just wish people would throw out the "Party" model and think this crap through.

The worst thing for this country is being able to vote a party ticket - as well as the extreme left and the extreme right.

Best effing country in the world is being run by malcontents who are most effective at dividing the country, and pushing agendas that do not support the American People. There is no balance. Balance Danielson, balance. You know, Wax on Wax off and all that sheet :rotf2:

I'm sorry, but I'm pissed. I am not drinking the Kool aid :spidey:

-spence

I do believe spence is talking AGAIN!

My cousin leaves for that %$%$%$%$hole tommorow. 4 kids left at home with mom. Short deployment. Thank God. So I am feeling a little frisky.

I've got a friend planning on his fourth tour! Heck he may already be in Kuwait...was damn nearly killed before the real shooting even began. Had to watch his first child's birth via video conference from a hospital bed in Germany. All in all I'd say he's pretty lucky.

Best wishes for a safe and fast return :angel:

-spence

F.................en
 

Beyond all the slam dunking and pointed wit here on this issue..... its a hell hole over there.....and its not Dems and Retropubs..... its us....America..... over policing and sickenly trying to insert DEMONOCRACY into countries and peoples who do not desire so.



You should all watch Catch 22 again and again.

GWBUSH:

And I reject those ideas," he said. "Ideas such as leaving before the job is done. Ideas such as not helping this (Iraqi) government take the necessary and hard steps to be able to do its job."

Our Iraqi Government...not the the Iraqi peoples choice but our version....

Puhleeeesssseee.... you must have stock in munitions?

This really is the problem.

It seems clear the single biggest mistake Bush made was to insert Paul Bremer to dictate just exactly how the Iraqi's were going to run their country.

The arrogance of this is beyond words. It literally is hegemony and it's exactly what Bin Laden told the Islamic world we would do.

Combined with the fact that Bush seems to have cared little of the regional social and religious structure...oh, and they didn't bother to secure the tons and tons of munitions and arms left in the open after Saddams fall...

The stupidity of this is beyond words. I don't know about you, but I expect more expertise from my government and accountability for those who led us here in this manner.

Instead Bush gives them civilian medals and high ranking jobs.

The obscenity of this is beyond words.

Skitterpop, I think some are just afraid to look.

-spence

I think some people just understand that they can't dial in the Way-Back Machine and un-insert Paul Bremer into Iraq. Some people probably also think that conceding defeat in Iraq as a form of punishment to Bush is not the right to do for the country. But on the other hand some people probably think that conceding defeat as a form of punishment to Bush is critical to their cause at any cost.

Demonocracy..........Interesting.

Is that all you've got?

Yes, Americans by and large want us to loose. What a crock...

-spence

By and large? Nope, I dont think so. Only those who think charging a sitting President with war Crimes in the midst of a war.

Wonder what made him opt for his fourth deployment.

So in a time of war all accountability should be suspended?

For a war that we know won't have an end?

This makes no sense.

Bush's duty is to defend the US Constitution...He's not King.

-spence

War crimes .... they do it and its a crime .... we do it in the name of God and Democracy and its not? .... this lack of self observance with objective honesty has always puzzled me about America.

Fortunately the guys I know in Iraq past and present don't consider themselves part of your "we".

I beg to differ. The military could win on thier own if they didn't have to stay out of the mosques. If they could enter and destroy what is inside the war would end.

And what is so confusing about the simple fact that they, the fanatical muslims, who are nothing but thugs subverting a religon, declared war on us. And the declaration took place many years before 09/11/2001.

Enter the mosques and shoot SADR and the others who are formenting and perpetuating the war for thier own benefit.

Dialogue, dialogue, dialogue...............dialogue got us 09/11/2001. Dialogue got us 444 days of captivity for the embassy hostages. Dialogue allows the enemy to resupply most of the time.

I watched those planes hit the towers, one after the fact, one live. I said in the barber shop where I was we are at war as I paid my bill and started to leave. We just need to figure out who to shoot at. I firmly believe because of his rheotoric and his undying support of anti-american diatribe Hussein, deserved to be the first to go. Doing what Bush did was to pro-active for many Amercians, and in that regard unpalatable, but sometimes when all else seems to be gone, or is gone, one has to save face. And saving face before the world is extremely important. Bin Laden and all the rest wanted war and they got it. But like most terrorists (cowards) after the fact they are hiding well-away from the shooting.

I have asked this question before and I'll ask it again of the anti-Bush group. What would you have done different after 9/11 than what Bush and most of Congress did?

Pick up a book on the Holocaust if you wanna see war crimes and crimes against humanity. Read up on the Bataan death march and what the Japs did to Americans. You'll see real war crimes there, not you're silly make believe war crimes.

I don't think GWB is out looking to round up and slaughter random civilians. Please show me the proof of where GWB ORDERED the murder and exececution of innocent people? And innocents killed during battle is not a war crime you know. I want you to show me proof of when GWB ordered the murder and slaughter of random innocents just becasue he could.

The 7 people who voted to charge Bush with war crimes in this stupid poll are freakin idiots. You guys are clueless! Read some history and you'll see what war crimes truly are.

Rest assured there was an element in WWII and every other war in History that was determined that we were unable to win. Vietnam is a good example of what happens when you listen to them.

If the prior administration had taken terrorism seriously we may not even be in the current situation. But instead, Slick Willy had the NSA eavesdropping on the hottest female dignitary in the world. :rotf2: You can't make this stuff up. Forget Bin Laden, let focus on Princess Di.

In all honesty I've never heard a single military or terrorisim expert assert such a thing. I don't believe it for a moment.
Who's anti-Bush? I'm anti bad policy :)

Quite simply, we should have recognized 9/11 for what it was...not an offensive strike against our freedom by crazy terrorists, but rather the result of a global Islamic insurgency that feeds from many sources.

This is the problem with the entire notion of the "terrorist". If you either are a terrorist or you are not then logic would dictate we could sinply target and kill terrorists to be successfull. This is the rational I hear repeatedly in these pages by many of you...

But the reality is we're fighting insurgents...it's a groundswell of rage against the entire world. We're target number one not because we're free, but because the USA is known as the world leader and our economy is the underpinning of the global economy.

This rage is present in every nation on earth. Some of it is perhaps justified and much of it is not.

But the US Military can't kill everyone we say is a terrorist when there's a stream of rage that's rooted in over a billion people, most of whom don't have the freedom or means to express any difference of opinion.

I could go on...but this is the fundamental problem with our post 9/11 policy.

-spence

Bizzaro Logic:
Given the fact that combatting violence against American citizens with military force isn't an option, perhaps rather than attacking the Training infrastructure for Al Queda post 9/11 we could have provided some group therapy for those poor individuals who cannot control their rage and maybe a mass apology from the American people would have helped soothe their animosity towards us. 9/12/01 should've been the time for some serious introspection to determine the things that the victims of the WTC, the Pentagon and the American people in general were guilty of to provoke such an attack. After the root cause analysis was completed we could've then sent a delegation of Jesse Jackson and Jimmy Carter to Afghanistan to engage the Taliban in some engaging dialog. What the Hell do those Terrorism experts know anyways.

Dont forget: When we kill a Terrorist who is a sworn enemy of America we are handing Bin Laden a Victory. Yep he gets great satisfaction when the top leaders in his organization are exterminated.

What's Bizaro is you're interpretation. I've never stated that violence isn't an option or that killing terrorists is a win for al Qaeda.

Violence with weak justification that seems to needlessly kill civilians though is a completely different matter.

Perception does count, this is a rebellion.

Your perception of what I believe seems to be quite different from what I really believe. It's as if you don't read my words, but just respond with the same tired black and white mantra.

-spence

You are the wings beneath my wings....anti anything....you make me sing.
You should be in Iraq :spin: fighting for what you believe....go get em Sniper :btu:

I am pro killing the bastards con lying about Iraq and there involvment with Bin Laden. I am also sick of Bush acting like a King and Rumsfield the top courtier. Real kids got killed and maimed over there. We have inflamed not only the Middle East but a lot of the 3rd world against us. And I am certian that we come off looking like 3rd grade bullies over the whole thing. Did I metioned American kids getting killed!!! Thats a shame, a shame. 3000 empty spots at the Christmass dinner table this season FOR WHAT!!!