That is a big factor for sure, additionally think of the billions in taxpayer aid already given that would be lost.

The former leadership believed bankruptcy was off the table, and they're now gone or going. It would seem that a prudent path is to help the company into Chapter 11 so the massive debt and liability issues can be restructured. Without bankruptcy they don't have enough leverage with the unions.

There seems to be a lot of selective conservatism going on around here. Let them fail might sound like a free market solution, but we don't really have a free market now do we?

-spence

Well said!!!

Funny, neither GM nor Ford can move a truck right now to save their lives...

Guess they're not so profitable anymore.

And you "facts" come from?

I found this on Routers and on CNN. To me it looks like the #1 and #2 spots are still TRUCKS. Yes sales accross the board have fallen almost 50%, but even so they still outselling the Camry.

March 3 (Reuters) - The following are the 20 top-selling vehicles in the United States through February 2009 as reported by automakers.

Following is a list of the top-20 selling vehicles, ranked by total units.
RANK VEHICLE 2009 2008 '08 RANK % Chng
1 Ford F-Series P/U 48,851 93,673 1 -47.8
2 Chevy Silverado-C/K P/U 43,775 80,218 2 -45.4
3 Toyota Camry 41,416 66,515 3 -37.7
4 Toyota Corolla 37,341 41,938 4 -11.0
5 Honda Accord 32,557 51,588 6 -36.9
6 Nissan Altima 30,137 44,998 9 -33.0
7 Honda Civic 29,885 44,792 8 -33.3
8 Dodge Ram P/U 27,291 42,544 5 -35.9
9 Honda CR-V 25,513 31,710 11 -19.5
10 Chevrolet Malibu 20,828 27,001 26 -22.9
11 Ford Escape 18,450 25,383 17 -27.3
12 Ford Focus 17,673 27,902 15 -36.7
13 Toyota RAV4 16,432 21,274 18 -22.8
14 Ford Fusion 15,755 24,163 20 -34.8
15 Jeep Wrangler 15,450 13,225 +16.8
16 Toyota Prius 15,353 22,272 16 -31.1
17 Chevrolet Impala 14,867 42,740 7 -65.2
18 GMC Sierra P/U 14,420 28,288 12 -49.0
19 Mazda 3 13,996 14,472 -3.3
20 Chevrolet Cobalt 13,508 34,268 14 -60.6

Yes Jimmy, I don't think critically at all :smokin:

Perhaps you should try to evaluate an issue from more than your narrow perspective before letting the spittle fly onto your keyboard.

SUV's and trucks may have been profitable in the past but sales of new units have dropped dramatically in the past few years.

You work in fianance so I'm sure you can comprehend this, right?

Higher profit margins are relative to volume. It doesn't make any sense for a company to restructure based on a business model that has proven to be unbalanced.

The Government is putting pressure on GM to adopt a restructing plan based on GM's failure to meet obligations it agreed to by taking Billions in loans last year.

This notion that the Government is dictating what kind of car you're going to be able to drive is simply absurd. You can still buy that SUV you've always dreamed about. It may cost you more to operate, but perhaps it should as well. Large cars and trucks have benefited from artifically low gas prices for decades due to Government actions, and as we've seen the balance is simply not sustainable.

-spence

Sales of trucks were stronger recently because of lower gas prices as well as HUGE incentives placed on these vehicles. That being said when you look at the top 10 on the list 7 are small cars. Doing some quick math indicates that even with the stronger sales of trucks, they were still declining 10% faster in unit sales than small to mid size vehicles.

While the margins may usually be higher on the trucks, considering the incentives required to get the number up, one would really have to wonder if those vehicles aren't nearly as profitable as they were in the past.

-spence

I don't care about rank, its the fact that a 50% fall in sales is pathetic.

And lets notice who the 2 BIGGEST LOSERS are.
Ford
Chevy

Least sales drop? Toyota.
Jeep is kind of a conundrum. They're effing terrible on gas yet people equate "small" with "economy". :rotf3:

You could say that about almost any high paying job.

look at Toyota's expansion into the truck market.

Yes, its absurd.
I guess I was having some wacky paranoid dream, thanks for waking me up. I dreamed that the government passed salary caps on major bank executives salaries, then I dreamed that congress proposed a 90% bonus tax, then its gets even MORE bizzare, I dreamed that the President of the United States guranteed warranties on Chrysler and GM cars and to top it all of he fires the president of GM. WHoa! That was wild. I can't even imagine in my wildest dreams Obama would further ensure GMs stability by manipulating gas prices or legistlation that would push people to buy GM. This is America after all.

Only on banks taking TARP money.
The House can propose anything but this wasn't signed into law was it?
A temporary program aimed to boost consumer confidence in an organization that the taxpayer has a large stake in.

Actually they asked him to step down because GM didn't meet the obligations they agreed to by taking taxpayer money, but...

I could of course bring up my dreams from the last 8 years, but Bush isn't in office any more so I'll pass...

-spence

So at least that one dream came true huh? No more Bush....

I'll be having nightmares for at least the next 4 years........

Buckman why do you think Toyota pays those wages, are they really generous? They paid them to keep near the UAW wages, but pay crappier beni's all to keep a tight hold on their employees. If it wasn't for the UAW, the people at TOYOTA would be making 10 bucks an hour.
There is alot on the internet about Toyota and how they treat their employees. They have a high rate of heart, and stress related deaths in Japan. What the workers in Kentucky are complaining about are instances where someone got injured at work, and because of it they were demoted, given a crappy job on a crappy shift, lost income etc. Are these not legitimate gripes? I am sure if this happened to you , you would be pissed.

My Liberty diesel gets 25 mpg, not as good as I would like with a 2.8l engine but much better than the gas version

If they were injured due to their own negligence, then I'd demote them too.

It's kinda funny that they treat their employees the same in Japan, where they don't have these unions. And many of the problems associated with overwork are on the part of the employee, trying to succeed and maybe advance as they advance because of success and not by seniority like union systems. "Well, you are more qualified for the job, but retard Sam (sorry if your name is Sam) is basically qualified and he's been here longer than you, or he's a minority or woman, so we have to promote him."

If you have to do more work to compete with the next guy, who then does more work to beat you.....kind of a vicious circle of guys trying to outdo each other. And not to mention the 3 seasonal bonus's employees get in Japan (the new years bonus is a month to 3 months pay) Almost all employers give great bonus's and they all pay for employee health care.

I lived in Japan for 8 yrs and wife is Japanese, just so you know where I get this info from.

If you don't perform in this type of workplace, you won't succeed. That's the big difference with the unions, If you are the best guy, your benefits or bonus's can't increase any more than the lowest guy (your job level) that can barely do the job. It greatly benefits the non performers (barley working enough not to get fired) while holding back the super stars. If everyone one gets the same benefits and same pay, why work harder than the next guy?

Exactly!! Don't promote mediocre or piss poor performers. But if they are union workers, as long as they can barley do the job, you can't fire them. So instead of 5 super star workers needed to get the job done, you've got 10 semi-skilled slackers, s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g all the profits. Untie their hands let them keep the best and fire the rest. If you don't perform, you shouldn't have the damn job. Work needs more motivation on the workers part, so don't pay the the same standard to all workers, but of course then you'd have you'd have Sharpton and Farakan protesting you for discrimination.... If people would think that maybe it's not discrimination, its people not performing at their job..... But God forbid you fire a minority, woman, or gay person for not doing their job........

Sounds kinda like a good defenition of socialism.

The people at Toyota USA are treated and payed far differantly than Toyota Japan. The us plants have wages that are almost on par with the Union autoworkers, this helps keep the unions out. What it does for the manufacturer is allow them to arbitrarily adjust wages. For instance in their new plant they will be pay 3-5 dollars an hour less than the Kentucky plant for the same jobs. They will also be cutting wages at the Kentucky plant, the reasoning will be that the UAW took concessions so you guy will too. There are no negotiations because there is no representation. There is plenty of research that shows when union workers are doing well, it helps drive up the wages of nonunion workers doing similar jobs.

I have worked both sides of the fence union, and nonunion. At the nonunion employer whenever there was a serious threat of unionization the employer gave everyone $1.50/hr raise. This happened 2 times in the six years I was there. Also we worked our asses off at the nonunion job, often times safe practices were not followed, and injuries were the norm. The straw that broke the camels back for me was being passed over for a promotion. The promotion required the passing of a technical exam. I not only passed this exam, but was the first person to get every question correct on the written, and oral tests no one had ever done that before or since. I was assured that one of the two positions was mine. I was then passed over by someone who did poorly on the test, had less time in the company, and was a different skin color than I was. I was told by the foreman that this was pushed by HR. I left, got a better job that is union and have not looked back. Most of the guys at the previous job are all gone because of the high rate of attrition. Many that are left make 3-4 dollars an hour more than they did 14 years ago, while I make 3 times what they make.

As far as the perception that union workers are lazy, a few bad apples should not spoil it for the rest, not all are lazy, and many are very hard working.

Lucky bastage. :heybaby:

My line of work brings me in contact with multiple different Unions, in multiple industries throughout the country. I've also worked for 2-3 different unions when I was younger.

Almost every single encounter I have had with Unions has left a sour taste in my mouth - and we're talking dozens of different Unions. I've had to encounter them as a customer, as a mutual vendor and as a supplier. Expenses are always 2-3x higher when a Union is involved, it is impossible to ask for specifics in terms of skill and the rules and limitations make them difficult to work with.

When I word in a Union, there was no point in which I felt any job security. I hated the mentality of Us vs. Them (them being the employer) and how can we bleed the employer for all we can get. Never did the Union stand up for an employee that was wrongly fired.

The Toyota plants have to keep wages up to stay competitive. People are stupid, they don't realized that even though Joe at GM is making $5/hr more that the extra money goes to union dues.

How do you know how much their union dues are? Mine are only 19 and some change per week.

I am not sure of the specifics of you case, but we have gotten many wrongly accused employees their jobs back.

Cool beans, I am aware you lived in Japan, and have a Japanese wife, however did you ever work at the Toyota plant? There is very extensive info on the net about a Japanese woman who husband worked at Toyota. He was given someone else's work to do in addition to his own after someone was let go. He dropped dead of a coronary at 40 years old. He work 14-17 hrs per day. Because of this woman there was a push for laws limiting employers from taking advantage of employees.

As far as someone getting hurt on the job by their own actions, these are accidents, and you should not lose your job because you had an accident, unless you physically can't do it anymore. I am sorry you feel that way Johnny, and I am glad I do not work for you.

They listed the Wrangler in the list, not the Liberty, but kudos to Jeep for making a diesel version of the Liberty.

25mpg isn't that great but considering its technically an SUV (I know my Wrangler got like.... 15?) thats pretty good.

Mark my word
GM will eventually file for bankruptcy and doing this will void the current union contract, then they will start over !
The days of pretty unskilled assembly line workers making more than $70 per hr are over !

Good. Now if we can only get rid of the idiot toll booth collectors that cost the same amount. You need less skills to work a toll booth than to work at McDonalds.

But apparently the on the job injury rate is much higher, you fall asleep and fall off the stool
You have your fingers slammed in the cash drawer.

Hazards pay for toll booth workers. That's why they make so much. They work in reinforced bunkers. When was the last time one of them got injured?

Average pay for them is $70,000.

when they fell off their stool. it's a patronage job and it will be that way forever, or until they become flagmen

I won't argue with that !