Ronnie,

I agree the us trade rules make no sense but that has NOTHING to do with the claim this plant is closing because of reduced herring regulations.

The herring (sardines are atlantic herring) regs wer cut back because the quota has not been filled (read...overfishing) and there is no getting around that.

The MWT fleet has recently supplied that plant and its a fact.

As far as being a zealot...you bet your ass...the america industrial herring fleet has damaged all of our fishing communities. They are screwing up our forage/bait and in few years when the science shows how this lack of herring is part of the reason less stripers are migrating to Maine you might start paying attention.

FYI...I work with reps from the small local fishing fleet in Port Clyde and others from all over Maine. We would all love to see some Maine recs come to any one of the many herring hearings in Portland.

Our sardines are going the way of our economy and country......CHINA!!!

Well Pat the sad part is that the foreign fleets are still there catching those same fish we try to protect and our poleticians give them the green light to do so while our boats have quotas and limited seasons. It's like me releasing fish up here so the comercials down there can catch them. So far I have 8 American Litoral tags from nice fish I landed and tagged returned by part time comercials. So much for my catch n release.
We need to deal with the whole problem not just our fishermen. The international boats do way more damage than ours cause they have no rules and all the exceptions like the 7 meter rule that alows small boats to catch all they want. They then go back to their 1000 ft plus mother ship to unload. Like those damn Russian factory ships that were off the coast of Maine in the 80's.The problem is that we tell our fishermen to go by the rules but oooppps we do nothing about their competition.Yup we need strong rules and enforcement but those fish don't just swim in our coastal waters.The enforcement can't just be on our fishermen, it has to be on all.
As far as making meetings well it would be a nice thing but having to work makes it very hard especially when they keep screwin with our pay to give more to those that don't won't work.Many of us can only do them up here where they;re held at night so workin people can make them. The poleticians had to be reminded up here they work for us not the other way around.
I agree it's good to be zealous about these things but we need to deal with the whole problem otherwise it gets like the striped bass. Complain about the comercial rod n reelers then the next day go to New Jearsy or Verginia and go out on a charter boat and catch striped bass in the EEZ an lie about it.Make nice pics till they tell you that you need to throw them overboard cause that speed boat comin your way is the marine police. The whole pic needs to be fixed including these back room treaties the take away from our fishermen no mater who they are for the foreign fishing fleets.
As far as the plant goes well it's done so more jobs are too. Still won't stop the importing of herring caight by foreign comercial boats within eye sight of our own fisherman.
But keep fighting we all do our part hopefully something changes for the good soon or it will all be moot.

Well you...
 

will have to find a new "boogie man" because the Sardine Cannery is gone now.

basenjib....The sardine cannery is not in any way part the problem...that cannery is important and it is just the latest victim of the american industrial commercial fleet. The boogie many...sheeet...IF you would like tog et into a numbers debate I say you shoot first...I got my arguements complete.

Ronnie...FYI...The Canadians and actually most of the countries in the world have banned MWT and Pair Trawling...there are no "mother ships off our east coast in any way shape or form.

Your arguement is exactly correct if we were talking about Tuna and some other species but truth is Atlantic Herring, Cod and some other species getting less press have been screwed up by Americans and our system alone...at least those screwed up since the early 80s and that is most that are in trouble today. Hell, the Canadians think we are crazy and are causing all kinds of issues because they will not water down or change their science the way we do.

I feel your pain on having to work at times of most hearings. Just let me ask a follow up. IF you can't attend the hearings/meetings and it takes much longer to find and read the information then where is your information on the atlantic herring industry of today coming from. Pretty much every small boat commercial and rec and enviro group is on the same page...the numbers show all kinds of numbers of many many species in the by catch reports and many species turned downward hard aftr the MWT fleet arrived again in 1999. Their bycatch is ugly and does not descriminate.

I also agree there is more to the Maine striper thing as well but if you think that the shortage of herring off the inshore Maine coast is not a part of it you are in denial.

My son, who is now 17, has been sitting down with me and polishing off a can of sardines on crackers since he was 5. We like em with a dash of tabasco. Preferably Ritz crackers. I started eating them with my Dad when i was about 5. High protien, good fish oil, delicious.

SEAFOOD.COM NEWS [Letters] - April 16, 2010 - ''After 135 years, last US sardine cannery shutting down in Maine, Bumble Bee says quota cuts to blame.''

This story does not get to the root of the problems here. The truth is
the industrial herring fishery has not even caught close to its annual
target quota (e.g. 180,000 metric tons in 2004) for the last several
years. This indicates a problem with herring abundance, not with catch
limits. In fact, the 2010 catch limit was based on the average fleet
landings for the last three years. It is these vessels' exceptional
efficiency that has contributed to shrinking herring populations over
the past decade (a 24 percent decline since 2000).

Furthermore, poor monitoring of this fishery means scientific advisors
don't know exactly what is going on, which leads to a great deal of
uncertainty. Therefore, declining stocks plus uncertainty equals harvest
reductions. It's too bad that Bumble Bee has been fingering fisheries
managers for their problems, when the real culprits are their suppliers:
industrial trawlers. More importantly, it is terrible that so many jobs
will be lost in an area with little opportunity. With luck this factory
can be used for something else and bring jobs back to Maine.

Gary Libby
Lobster and groundfish fisherman
Captain of F/V MisKim and F/V Leslie and Jessica
Port Clyde, Maine

Pat...
 

I was not looking for a fight. I was just upset and felt sorry for the guy that I spoke with about the Plant closing. I can see that you know more about this stuff than I ever will. I am sure you have sympathy for the people that lost jobs too. Thanks for the information...it really cleared things up for me. Sorry if I came acrossed like an ass, Joe.

Joe...my passion is driven by the fact that fishermen and others in traditional new england employment are victims (the people in the plant are amongst those). It is insanity to let these industrial operations gut our traditional ways and then blame everyone but themselves and their greedy operations. This fleet has done the same damage in every ocean it has been allowed to fish.

I applaud you for having the free mind to get into the conversation as that is how we will all learn and eventually change the non sustainable methods of the last 15 years or so.

FYI...Ronnie and I have been friends or years and he is someon I hae much respect for as he is what I call a local hero. He serves the local community in all he does and on this issue he is just confusing a couple fisheries issues. One of the many things he and I agree on is that our government has failed our fisheries and we have so very many issues all colliding and that makes for a confusing mess. I only have more knowledge on a few of these issues because it is part of what I get to do for a living and I am grateful to do what I love.

no biggie on my end...we debate and discuss and arrive at intelligent solutions...or we loose...i'd rather have the debate to win

Total Spin by BasicPatrick
 

I am not one for engaging in these online discussions, but Basicpatrick has gone too far and it is insulting to Maine fishermen and especially to those in Prospect Harbor who have just lost their jobs - some of whom I have known for 25+ years. Basicpatrick and his like are just trying to displace the blame from their role in this plant closing. Their relentless attacks on the herring fishery - not supported by facts - have more to do with this plant closing than any science or facts about the fishery.

The inshore quota was not reduced because the fishery has not caught the total quota for the fishery - this is just total nonsense! Having attended all public meetings relative to this issue, this was never mentioned as a rational by anyone. Again, this is fabricated by those who attempt to displace their guilt onto others. The total quota was reduced becuase of scientific uncertainty and the inshore quota that Stinson's relied heavily on was drastically reduced because of a political campaign that Basicpatirck has been participating in for a number of years - along with Earth Justice, CHOIR and Pew - all friends of fishermen everywhere!

In fact, the resource is not overfished and overfishing is not occurring. While a number of issues did arise from the most recent stock assessment, it was a consensus of the participating scientists that the stock appears to be stable and that current removals from the fishery have maintained a relatively abundant stock size.

Basicpatrick is right - he is zealot and totally lacking in factual information. Bycatch in this fishery is not ugly - in fact information for the fishery indicates it is one of the cleanest in the region. People like Patrick just say "well we don't believe it." To say most countries ban midwater trawling is not correct. In fact, the largest fishery in the US ( BSAI pollock) is MSC certified as sustainable and prosecuted with midwater trawls. As for the GL letter he posted - I know Gary and do not believe he wrote it. I do beleive he signed it, but most likely written by Earth Justice.

As I said, I have never participated in these online forums but this spin goes way too far. The reality is people like Patrick felt way too comfortable going after the big bad boats and can't own up to their own part in the outcome of this plant closing. and blaming Maine herring fishermen to boot. Take a look in the mirror Patrick and then take a look at the people you hang out with. Every night before you go to bed think about the 140 people in Prospect who lost their jobs!

You state, as fact, that the quota is the reason the factory had to close, and that the quota is putting fishermen out of business.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but, the quota set in 2004 was 180,000 metric tons and has now been decreased to 91,000 metric tons.
According to statistics *From the State of Maine*:
Year Metric Tons Landed
2006 43367
2007 32935
2008 30048
http://www.maine.gov/dmr/commercialf...erring.tbl.pdf

So, explain to me where the issue is?

Also, bottom and midwater trawlers are a disgusting practice that should be completely banned. You want to complain about a group that has cost fishermen jobs - in addition to lowering the price of fish and wreaking havoc on the ecosystem all without regard for the fish and only for their wallet, you can start there.

speaking of spin
 

Information from the fishery??? If it's so clean, why have you guys been fighting like hell for years to keep the observers off the boats? Or that nifty little trick you boys like - when there's an observer on one boat, you guys just pair trawl and then the other boat hauls back every time? Oh wait, it's for safety sake that you can just dump your cod end without taking it aboard when its loaded to the gills with haddock. That's right - it's bycatch if it hits the deck, but if you just dump a few metric tons of dead groundfish, its not "by-catch"

And the crowning glory - when there's 6 miles of DEAD FLOATING STRIPERS in the Great South Channel when you boys are busy destroying the fall tuna fishery - that's not discard, b/c you didn't out them on your boat.

And as for the plant closing, while I feel for the men that lost their jobs, - stop exporting the herring on that big freaking freighter that loads at norpel in NB and keep some product for the domestic cannery market. Its not the regs that closed you down - you got a better price overseas and F'd your workers.

Spin on that.

:musc:Well...it didnt take the well funded mwt fleet long to find this thread. :hidin:

I wonder what meherring gets paid to hop on the internet...Welcome :cputin:

I wonder if meherring is the lobbiest that is always talking about how to fix river herring we need to increase the striped bass quota :screwy:

OR is he the dc laywer that is bold enough to admit he is trying to get loopholes in the management plan :wall:

OR maybe he is the plant manager who after giving the speach about being an industry "on our knees" gets in his 50K 2009 Toyota Sequoia :sspam:

OR the employee that likes to yell at people and try an intimidate them outside the hotels :musc:

Let's see what's will you say next...oh...I know...:bs:

The crime here is that your greedy industry is using the tragedy of this plant to push your agenda. Why is your press agent not pushing the positive effort to flip the plant into somehting more reliable :huh:

All you want the press to cover is the quota reduction...:yak5:

The only guilt I feel is that I walked away for a while after we formed CHOIR and we failed at preventing your damage from going as far as it has and for that I feel guily:deadhorse:

Hop on one of your vessels and sail off to your next MSC certified fishery that you are going to ruin. Go kill a whale or dump a bag of the wrong size herring or river herring or haddock over the side since that is what you truely do best.:bshake:

my female has a v notch, if yours doesn't u should return it as faulty

ditto

hear, hear........

your father is right

yeah!!!!!

ouch!

i love this thread!

MM....You need to learn how to Multi-Quote...:hihi:

huh? wat that? u luky i use commputter.

just trying to get my number of posts to 10,000 so i can be somebody :biglaugh:

Just use the little "+" button next to the quote button. you select all the posts you want to quote then hit the Quote button on the last one. that way it puts them all in the same post like I just did with both of yours.

Then you can comment on each one......and you got a loooooong way to go to catch Bigfish in the Post count :hee:

Missing the Point
 

You all are missing the point, the plant closing is not related to midwater trawling. Bumble Bee clearly stated that they will close because the reduced quota in the inshore GOM is not sufficient for them to be viable. While the State of Maine numbers appear to be correct, the federal area quotas are the ones to look at.

Inshore GOM:
2006 - 60,000 mt
2007 - 50,000 mt
2008 - 45,000 mt
2009 - 45,000 mt
2010 - 26,546 mt

These fish have been supplied to the plant during the summer/fall season by purse seiners. The quota was drastically cut even though the science says the stock is stable, because of campaigns by the Pew, etc people.

The Norpel plant has nothing to do with this, nor does their fish caught in the winter and shipped oversees. It has to do with available quota in the GOM.

As for all the accusations about midwater trawling, there is no factual information to support the allegations. The fishery has bycatch, but when compared to others in the region it is a clean fishery. There is no factual information to support the striper bycatch in the Channel. In fact, the MA DMF investigated through VMS and found there where no herring boats in the area, but lets not let the facts get in the way.

All the sensational rhetoric "greedy, etc" does not overcome the facts.

The bottom line here is the plant has closed, 140 people have lost there jobs, and these campaigns attacking the fishery have devasted the Maine herring fishery. And as I said before, Patrick, you and your like, should look in the mirror. While the entire outcome can't be laid at anyones feet, you have had a hand in it.

I come from a Maine fishing family, I am not a lawyer, lobbiest or plant manager and don't have a press agent. I also don't plan on spending time arguing here with people who rely on internet forums for their information. Try reading something factual for a change at nefmc.org

No, *you're* missing the point and then spinning your position as it's proven wrong and scientifically inaccurate.

If the Maine numbers appear correct, and the federal area quotas are the ones to look at, then why does your post and all the sob stories harp on Maine "decreasing the quota in half"?

Must've been an unreported oil spill or other disaster that caused miles of belly up stripers. Exactly what other fishery are you referring to that midwater trawling is "a clean fishery" relative to?
YouTube - DEAD STRIPERS OFF NEW ENGLAND - WHO DID THIS?

It has been working great for me. I did not realize that during "Mission Accomplished" jobs previously sent offshore came back to the US. Please enlighten us.

Production at Maine canneries has been sliding since peaking at 384 million cans in 1950. Faced with declining demand and a changing business climate, the plants went by the wayside one by one until, five years ago, the Stinson plant was the last one standing.

Quit being a tool and trying to politicize a dying business.

I always find it amusing when the midwater lobby tries to paint those of us interested in seeing our forage fisheries managed sustainably as some of out of touch environmentalists.


You're kidding right?

The Maine fishermen have been some of the strongest folks leading the charge to bring some sanity to the sea herring fishery since the Midwater boats came.

Are you sure that you have attended all meetings on this issue as you mentioned, MEherring? When did you start? You know it doesn't help to attend these meetings if you don't pay attention.

Poor chum. Here, let me help you. Take a listen to the following audio clip from a September 2006 NEFMC meeting. It is only 5 minutes. Pay attention, now, and realize just how out of touch you really are.

http://www.fishtalk.org/rc/nefmc/ful...0928/t3/s3.m3u

MEherring in case you missed it Steve Weiner, the chairman of Choir, is the commercial tuna fisherman who spoke in that above audio clip. He is a Maine fisherman. Also note that the Maine Lobstermen's Association supported CHOIR's positions as well. Might I suggest you try expanding your circle of friends in the Maine fishing community.

I could introduce you to some at the next NEFMC meeting if you like.

Hope this helps.

Mike Flaherty
Wareham, MA

People in glass houses...
 

You're funny, MEherring.